Illegal Immigration and the Out of Control Border is Our Issue

[txaslftist]

Is there a crisis in illegal immigration?

Yes. Two states have declared states of emergency, it is at an all-time high, and emergency rooms have been bankrupted. Some 40% of federal prison space is housing illegals.

Whose fault is it?

It is the Republicans' fault. Securing the border is a federal responsibility. The Republicans have been exclusively running the federal government for five years.

Why haven't the Republicans done anything about it? The lobbyists of powerful corporations, like Citibank, Wells Fargo and Home Depot, are paying a lot of money to urge congressmen not to touch the issue or enforce the laws. These businesses make larger profits by either servicing or employing illegals, who they pay in cash, don't pay taxes on, don't have to pay benefits for, and can fire or injure at will. The illegal alien is the perfect employee. He works for cheap, you don't withold, you don't pay social security, you can fire him at will, and if he's hurt on the job he can't sue you (because on call to INS, he's gone).

The GOP has a vested interest (lobbying money) in not enforcing immigration laws.

Why should Democrats care? Aren't we the party of minorities?

This is not a race issue. The presence of illegal aliens in the US economy hurts American workers by driving down the wages US workers are paid. If McDonalds hires illegals at $5.00 an hour and Burger King does not, McDonalds stays in business, Burger King does not. This creates downward pressure on wages.

Why is this a Democrat's issue?
First of all, in a post 9-11 world, heightened security demands border security. This is a deliberate failure of security by the GOP. The fact that no one has crossed the border and blown up Americans is pure luck. They're playing Russian Roulette by leaving the border unsecure.

It is a law and order issue. If illegals can cross without fear of apprehension, they can cross without fear of apprehension with drugs, guns or explosives.

It is an economic issue that directly hurts the Democrat's base, working people, by driving down wages. It is an economic injury that directly hurts taxpayers, who have to pay more for services that illegals use but don't pay taxes for. It is an economic injury in that medical costs are higher because illegals essentially use US facilities such as emergency rooms for free, without hope of compensation if they are hurt on the job. It is an economic issue because US workers are expected to work for the same pay, and with the same reduced benefits as illegals.

What can Democrats do (and what would they be willing to do) to solve Illegal Immigration that Republicans can't or won't do?
Democrats will be willing to vigorously prosecute those employers that hire illegals. The reason Democrats will do this and Republicans won't is because Republicans get their money from those employers, and serve those employers in Washington. Democrats don't.

Democrats can streamline the process of legal immigration, so that industries that depend on the presence of workers will still have them, but they will pay payroll taxes, work for at least minimum wage, and contribute, rather than be a drain on, government services. This will benefit everyone who works for a living.

The Democratic constituency (working people) are hurt by illegal, black-market workers. The Republican constituency (big business interests) are helped by the presence of this illegal labor.

This is a Republican failure, and a failure on purpose. We need to make it our issue, because we can actually do something about it, with a positive plan for change.

People say Democrats don't have a plan. On this issue, this is a plan.

[400Years]

1. you are using fear

no thanks, i'm not buying.

[RagingInMiami]

2. That issue will divide the democratic party

Trust me on that.

[FreakinDJ]

13. That is Correct - meet the 2006 - 2008 WEDGE ISSUE

Wake up or say hello President Jeb Bush

[txaslftist]

45. It is a wedge issue. But it divides Rebublicans, not Dems.

Hillary Clinton favors pretty much the position I've outlined above. She is stricter on illegal immigration that Bush is.

The ground-level Republicans are in revolt against Bush for this. Even Republicans are framing this as the "Bush open border policy".

Hillary has recognized that this is a Democrat's god mine of an issue. If you think the Clintons don't know framing, you don't know the Clintons.

Strict enforcement of the laws against employing illegals coupled with an increase in LEGAL immigration helps Democrats. To me this is obvious. I don't see why it isn't to you.

[goodhue]

52. No, it divides Dems

It divides me from you, for example.

Illegal Immigration is all that Minnesota Republican Governor Tim Pawlenty has been talking about for several weeks now. Like gay marriage in 2004, illegal immigration is THE wedge issue the Minnesota republicans will run on in 2006. Thankfully, with the change in St. Paul mayors, the democratic leaders here in the Twin Cities are now united. The same cannot be said statewide.

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/local/13559766.htm

[txaslftist]

55. It isn't their wedge issue because they say it is!

For Chrissakes.

Do you favor streamlining the immigration process so more people can come here legally and fewer have to die in the desert locked in some coyote's truck?

Do you favor penalizing big companies who make a practice out of hiring illegals so they can exploit them?

Do you favor protecting the rights of workers to be free from inadequate health care, unsafe working conditions and substandard wages?

Do you agree that the GOP has failed to do anything concrete about immigration despite being in charge of the entire federal gummint for five years?

If so, you and I are in complete agreement.

Read Lakoff's "Don't Think of an Elephant", and understand my point is not that Mexicans are bad or that we should appeal to prejudice. My point is that this is OUR issue to seize. If we don't seize it, the GOP will.

Then it really will be their wedge issue, and will help them gain seats.

[goodhue]

58. State DFL party chair says Pawlenty uses immigration as wedge issue

And Brian is correct. No need to reframe issue here in MN, because like gay marriage before it, it is in fact a total non-issue.

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2006/01/04_mccalluml_immigrationfolo/

"Tim Pawlenty has to come up with something that's going to scare people into voting for him," said Brian Melendez, the chair of the state DFL Party.

Melendez said Pawlenty is using illegal immigration as a wedge issue to try to mobilize his base of conservative supporters. He compares the issue to gay marriage in 2004.

"It's part of the national Republican strategy to try to drive up turnout among the Republican faithful, and to try to scare voters into voting for an issue that's really not one of their top priorities," Melendez said.

Melendez points out that a St. Cloud State University survey of Minnesotans taken last month didn't list immigration among the top issues facing the state.

[txaslftist]

64. How do you respond to this wedge "non-issue" then?

Ignore it and hope it goes away, or reframe it into the deliberate Republican failure that it is, and offer a positive, progressive solution that will work?

The Democrats in Texas ignored the "non-issue" of an anti-gay amendment, the anti-gay amendment got the Republicans all fired up, and we lost seats.

Calling it a non-issue when the other side says it is an issue is the same as saying "I don't see a problem and I don't have a plan."

It is a recipe for disaster.

[goodhue]

75. guest worker registration

I think some sort of guest worker registration program is appopritate response. In particular, I like the program proposed by Steve Young in his recent candidacy for Congress . . .

http://www.steveyoungforcongress.com/issues.php

"Catcher in the Rye" type immigration policies are destined to failure. The INS is under-funded and vigilante groups on the borders threaten the rule of law in our country. We are learning by sad experience that America cannot solve the immigration crisis at the border because border solutions merely address symptoms.

I have a real solution to the "immigration problem" that is a business approach. It does not demonize immigrants, is self-funding, and benefits America.

Immigrants pay on average $3000 each to smugglers. Why not have the immigrants pay America the $3000 and create a system under which we can monitor who is coming into the country and what they are doing? I propose that the government establish ICE centers at the borders. Those wishing to enter the country will pay the $3000 to ICE (US Immigration, Customs and Enforcement Agency). ICE will take the immigrant's photograph, fingerprints, and administer tuberculosis and other health tests. The immigrants must tell us where they are going to live and where they plan on working. With that information, and the payment, the immigrant can enter the country. Every six months the immigrant must renew the application with updated information and the payment of an additional $500.00. Some sources estimate 30 million undocumented aliens are in the US. At $3000 each, we have a potential revenue source of $90 billion. I estimate that ICE can reduce the border patrol by 2/3 and redirect its efforts to drug interdiction and security to prevent terrorist entry to the US. All of this has a direct financial benefit to the US government in a time of rising budget deficits.

Employers who cheat their competitors by hiring undocumented workers fuel the immigration problem. I propose a "green card bounty" program to halt employer cheating. Any undocumented worker who gives ICE a paycheck showing the worker worked within the last month will receive a "green card bounty." ICE will not have to spend precious resources investigating cheating employers. The immigrants will bring the evidence to ICE to get an expedited green card. Armed with this proof, and front page publicity for prosecutions of cheating business owners, jobs for undocumented workers outside my registration system will dry up immediately. This will level the playing field for honest employers.

It is time for America to adopt my direct solution. It benefits America, eliminates the cheaters, generates $90 billion for the treasury, and allows ICE to focus on security rather than playing hide and seek in the southern deserts. Is it time for a change, or more of the same?

[alfred e bush]

3. i agree

working people are losing jobs to illegals...while fat rethugs reap the profits

the bogus 5 bucks for a head of lettuce argument dont fly.....growers dont pass on savings to the consumer.....no focking way


nothing against illegals but they are illegal

[murdoch]

32. It's really two issues, not one

There's really two questions: people who want to come over the border and people who are already here.

As far as people coming over the border, I'm not sure what can be done about it. The problem might not be solvable at the border, it might have to be solved in Mexico City. Things like NAFTA certainly play a role. Millions of people around Mexico City make less than $2 a day - it is hard to stop a migration like that. But anyhow, if there was some method to keep immigration from happening it would probably be better for workers on both sides. Mexican workers would have to fix the corrupt Mexican government (which Bush and his type help keep corrupt) instead of just taking the easy route and coming here. It would be better for US workers to not get the flood of immigrants like is happening now.

The other issue is undocumented workers who are already here. To me, I support them 100% and am behind them. I think they should all be granted citizenship. The Bush "amnesty" is the worst thing of all - it lets undocumented stay and work here legally, but in super wage slave conditions. People attacking undocumented workers who are here and who have been here for a while, while leaving the border wide open is a joke, it's obviously just a divide-and-conquer the working class tactic, the working class being all workers in the US, native and undocumented.

So to summarize - close the border if it's possible, but get behind the undocumented already here. The ideal solution would be to simultaneously completely seal the border and give citizenship to all undocumented here who want it.

It is a nuanced issue, there is no being "for" or "against" immigrants. It's clear for working peopleeveryone would be better off if the border was closed, and workers would be better off if the undocumented became citizens.

[raccoon]

90. While I agree with you on this, murdoch,

"Mexican workers would have to fix the corrupt Mexican government (which Bush and his type help keep corrupt) instead of just taking the easy route and coming here."

How are they going to do that? We run-of-the-mill folks can't fix the corrupt Murikan government.

[FSogol]

4. Sorry, but this is a goofy statement:

"Why haven't the Republicans done anything about it? The lobbyists of powerful corporations, like Citibank, Wells Fargo and Home Depot, are paying a lot of money to urge congressmen not to touch the issue or enforce the laws. These businesses make larger profits by either servicing or employing illegals, who they pay in cash, don't pay taxes on, don't have to pay benefits for, and can fire or injure at will."

None of the companies listed hire illegal aliens. They have legal means to get low-paid employees.

Illegal immigrants work in the restaurant, hospitality, construction, agriculture, and manufacturing industries. They do not work for financial institutions.

[AZBlue]

8. Not goofy at all. Actually very accurate.

I don't think the OP implied that the illegal immigrants were banking executives or store managers. But they are the maintenance crew, the drivers, the company cafeteria workers, the janitors and the delivery team. Home Depot even lets illegal immigrants gather at their stores and wait for someone to hire them as day laborers. ALL of the companies listed are contributing to the problem.

[Loonman]

5. Illegal = unlawful

I agree with your post. anyone who hints that you are a racist is a moronic pinhead.

[AZBlue]

7. Couldn't agree more!! (n/t)

[katsy]

18. I agree. Furthermore...

if we're to ignore laws so as not to hurt anyone's feelings, maybe illegal campaign contributions laws should be ignored and give abramoff a free pass. Let's not hurt his feelings by holding him to these petty laws. After all, I'm Jewish and I think he's being prosecuted by anti-Semitic racists. :sarcasm:

[shamrock]

6. Yes

You are exactly right. I don't understand how any American thinks we don't need to secure our borders. Especially at this time in our history with all the threats of terrorism.

[Bridget Burke]

28. Yes, terrorism is a great excuse for anything.

If works for Bush!

[shamrock]

40. Well, if there is absolutely

no threat of terrorism then let's just open all the borders and stop all of the precautions we take on the airlines, etc. You know what I meant. And yes, bush uses the threat of terrorism to his advantage, but we do have a real threat now that far exceeds what we had before, thanks to bush.

[RagingInMiami]

9. Why does every plan always have to include a scapegoat

Someone you can point your finger at and blame for all the ills of this country?

Why not a national health care plan, something that will benefit business and middle-class America? Why not an educational plan, something that will guarantee every American access to higher education?

If we need a scapegoat, I rather point at the pharmaceutical companies and their stranglehold on Washington politicians.

[Loonman]

10. "Why not a national health care plan,"

Tax money funds those programs and those like it. You'd rob Peter to pay Paul?

[RagingInMiami]

12. Take away tax breaks to the corporations

The corporations, will in turn, save money anyway because they won't have to pay for their employees healthcare costs.

[BEZERKO]

31. Feh

Phoey

:thumbsdown:

[txaslftist]

46. Who am I scapegoating?

I'm scapegoating people who break the law to come here?

Sorry to offend, but I'm actually a criminal defense attorney who defends illegal aliens in court. If the process to get them here legally were streamlined, and the people who employ them illegally are punished for it, isn't that better for them, too?

They get to work here legally at prevailing wages, they have recourse to our courts, they don't have to live here in fear of arrest, and employers can't stiff them on wages and then threaten to call INS when they complain.

You seem to think that the status quo of lawbreaking is acceptable, and that not enforcing the law is preferable. I don't understand that thinking.

[RagingInMiami]

81. It is scapegoating

When you set up a political agenda against an entire subgroup of people. And yes, they may be in this country illegally, but there are different degrees of illegal behavior.

An illegal crossing the border smuggling cocaine, meth, heroin or marijuana is different than an illegal crossing the border to find work as a dishwasher in order to send money back to his family.

The majority fall into the latter catogory.

Isn't sodomy illegal in some states? Well, let's go after those people. They are breaking the law.

[txaslftist]

85. I'm scapegoating employers who break the law.

You said: "An illegal crossing the border smuggling cocaine, meth, heroin or marijuana is different than an illegal crossing the border to find work as a dishwasher in order to send money back to his family."

My reply: If you don't have any control over your border, they're no different at all. They both get in.

[endarkenment]

11. Absolutely lets focus on this bullshit issue!

Great Idea.

Why be diverted by incompetence, corruption, treason, criminals in the white house, illegal wars, lunatic fundamentalist idiots, spying on americans, all that silly stuff. Why let all of that nonsense get in the way of bashing them foreigners? Yes indeed. Couldn't agree more.

[Le Taz Hot]

43. This is NOT a bullshit issue

to MILLIONS of those in states who are affected. Unfortunately, the climate at DU has become such that I can't say much more for fear of being accused of racism. So I'll continue to pay cash for life-saving medication (no insurance) while the person in front of me at the drug store, who can't speak a word of English, whips out his Medi-Cal card to pay for HIS prescription. Glad to see my taxes going for SOMEONE'S medication -- not MINE, of course, but someone's. :mad:

[AZBlue]

60. Oh but wait....there's more!

Don't forget...he's also getting housing subsidies and gets his food paid for by the government. And, his children are basically getting free education since he's not paying the taxes to cover it.

[txaslftist]

47. This is not a bullshit issue to the MinuteMen folks on the border.

They happen to have about 80% public support here in Texas. It's not a bullshit issue to Hillary, who supports pretty much the same proposals I do. It's not a bullshit issue to the Democratic Governor who has declared a state of emergency in his state due to uncontrolled illegal immigration.

And it's not bashing foreigners. It's bashing employers who exploit them.

[txaslftist]

71. To revisit this...

incompetence: Bush just filled a vacancy at the head of ICE, the immigration portion of the Dept. Homeland Security with a crony who INS agents say has inadequate experience.

corruption: You can google "immigration corruption" to get a list of which large corporate contributors to the Bush admin and to the Republicans are paying lobbyists to soften immigration enforcement.

treason: It's post 9-11 and our southern border is open to terrorists.

And it is "those foreigners" who are languishing in our prisons, dying in our deserts, and being exploited by the same corporations who have bought and sold our congress. It is reforms like those I'm talking about that will protect them.

By saying this is a bullshit issue, you are the one bashing them.

[sinkingfeeling]

14. I don't agree. Illegals are not driving down wages....cheap ass

companies like Wal-Mart and Tyson are driving down wages. If illegals work, they pay taxes.

[Loonman]

17. No, they don't pay taxes

If they did, they wouldn't be illegals.

[sinkingfeeling]

20. Sorry, but they do. I know many without green cards working in restaurant

industry. They have taxes withheld.

[txaslftist]

22. You mistake me. I'm not bashing Hispanics, or Chinese ...

...I'm talking about obeying the law. I'm sure the people you reference in your post are hard-working and pay some taxes. I'm also sure they don't file annual income tax returns. I'm also sure that if they could come here legally without bribing a coyote or a Mexican immigration official or waiting three years for a visa, they would.

That's why I advocated streamlining the process of legal immigration.

Doing so makes crossing the border legally more attractive, and reduces the danger of immigrants dying in the back of a smuggler's truck in the middle of the Arizona desert.

How can you be against that? Is the status quo acceptable to you?

[sinkingfeeling]

38. I will agree with streamlining the process so that more people would be

'legal'. I just don't like the arguments you're using: that illegals are damaging the average working American, taking away jobs and lowering wages. My son is a restaurant manager and has been for years in such states as Texas, Arizona, and Florida. He is aware that some of his employees have fake green cards, but says he'd do anything to keep them here. He says those poor, desperate workers will work twice to three times harder than others. He has never had a problem with them cheating on time cards or stealing. Those problems have always been with American-born college students!

I welcome anyone who wants to come to our shores to come. I just had a roof put on my house this summer. The entire crew, working in 95 degree heat, was Hispanic. I have a very large roof and these guys did the job in 3 days...including scraping off 4 layers of shingles. They then hand carried all of the mess from around the house to a trailer in my driveway. I have never seen anybody work as hard as they did, over 3 stories up! The white guy who did the estimate asked me what I thought and I told him flat out that he'd better be paying those guys a decent wage. He said he did, $10 an hour. Also said he couldn't find anyone else to do the dirty work. I talked to these guys everyday in my poor Spanish. They were there while I was at work. They were super human beings.

I hate the arguments of 'anti-immigrationists'. These people should be welcomed with open borders and open arms.

[txaslftist]

48. Illegals are being exploited because they are illegal.

Streamline the process for them to immigrate lawfully, they can work legally without fear of being arrested, deported, stiffed on wages, etc. And no, illegals don't all pay taxes, most of them in my state work on crews and are paid cash at the end of the week (nothing witheld).

As for the idea that illegals will do the work Americans won't, that's BS. I had a home built in Wisconsin. There was nothing on that house that wasn't done, and it was all done by people who were (at least as far as I could tell) US citizens. The difference is that because of their desperation, illegals will work in unsafe conditions, without certainty of pay, without recourse to the courts and in constant fear of apprehension, at wages that US citizens will not accept.

Continuing the present course means putting US citizens in competition with people who are so poor they are willing to be exploited. Which means that to compete, US workers need to be willing to accept the same conditions, or lose jobs.

And there is no job an American won't or can't do. That's just insulting. Especially to a party that's supposed to be about the working people of this country.

[sinkingfeeling]

53. I didn't say the guys working on the roof were illegals. I said they

were extremely hard-working and nice men. I welcome anybody to this country with those qualities. It isn't the illegals who are exploiting the poor and it isn't the illegals who make people work in unsafe conditions or for less than a living wage. And paying crews in cash to avoid taxes has been an American tradition for decades and has nothing to do with immigration.

[AZBlue]

65. You're describing exploitation of illegal immigrants.

I'm not saying that you or your son are taking advantage of them, but most employers do. The truth is we'd all be better off, foremost the illegal immigrants, if they were legal. They would earn higher wages first of all. And, yes, many of them do work hard - they worked hard to get here and are more motivated than a lot of citizens are because of their circumstances. So why not reward them with higher wages, benefits, job advancement, etc?? I don't think the OP or anyone on this thread is advocating closing the borders - let's face it, unless you are an American Indian, your ancestors were immigrants, and that's what this country is made up of. But, let's do it legally for everyone's sake.

[Loonman]

41. "taxes withheld".

If they are illegal, whichever social security number they are using is bogus, which is also illegal. The only way for an un-documented(as in illegal) worker to work legally is with a Green Card. Employers do not want to pay payroll taxes on people they are paying illegally. Why would an employer risk putting illegal workers on the books?


Gosh!

[AZBlue]

62. How can they have taxes withheld?

They have no id number to use to withhold them.

[txaslftist]

68. They don't.

I've represented dozens of illegal immigrants in federal court. They are mostly paid by "independent contractors" who pay them cash at the end of the week.

They don't have legit social security cards. How are they supposed to get taxes witheld?

If you are talking about folks here legally, they DO pay taxes. And I'm absolutely in favor of their being here.

[RagingInMiami]

23. Yes they do pay taxes

They pay sales tax, gas tax, license plate tax, water tax, electricity tax etc.

And they also get taxes withheld from their wages, which they never reclaim because of their immigration status.

[Bridget Burke]

30. Most don't pay income tax....

But they pay sales tax--especially in Texas, where we have not State Income Tax.

And they pay property tax--usually indirectly. Trust me, landlords DO pass on any tax increases.

[goodhue]

54. But they do in fact pay billions of dollars in taxes . . .

"No one knows exactly how much illegal immigrants contribute in taxes, but experts estimate it is billions of dollars."
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0321/p02s01-ussc.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/14/politics/main549153.shtml

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2005/04/11_tonessb_illegal/

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20040415/news_1n15taxes.html

[txaslftist]

77. Illegal workers drive down wages.

Employer "A" (Wal Mart, if you like) hires illegals, via an independent contractor, to clean his floors. He pays the contractor $1,000.00 a month, the contractor pays his workers $8.00 per hour. He pays no witholding. He pays no medical. He pays no benefits. He pays no pension. He pays no social security.

Employer "B" (To be nice, let's say K-Mart) hires US citizens to clean his floor. He also has an independent contractor (to make the math easier), but this contractor obeys the law and hires only US citizens or people with work VISAs. She is paid $1,000.00 per month. She cannot pay her workers $8.00 per hour, because she must withold, she pays medical insurance, she provides benefits, she complies with the FMLA, and she witholds social security. The US citizens' wages are lower because of the cost of obeying the law.

Independent contractor "B" goes out of business, and K-Mart hires independent contractor "A". So illegal aliens take jobs from working US citizens.

If the illegals try to unionize, contractor A calls INS. If he runs short of money, and can't pay them, he calls INS so they cannot complain. He can rip them off, fire them at will, deny them the right to unionize, and if they get injured on the job, he calls INS, so it's tough luck.

And if US workers want to be competitive in the same business, they have to accept the same terms.

What is so hard to understand about this?

[Neil Lisst]

15. I agree with you.

This is one issue we need to formulate ONE thing we can agree on, and that one thing is BLAME THEM, THEY'RE IN CHARGE OF THIS MESS.

[Skidmore]

29. You know, when a person hides out or buys fake papers or

sneaks across the border in the middle of the night, they do so because they know they are breaking the law--before they are even here. They are not without blame, but share a portion of it, as do the leaders of their nation who will not end corruption and bad labor practices, as do the employers here who don't want to pay a living wage, as does the government here which winks at it and does not enforce the laws on any front. I have been married to two different immigrant--both came legally to this nation after completing the appropriate paperwork and going through all the steps, including sponsorship. I have no problem with immigration. When I went to live overseas, I was required to go through a process. Rule of law must apply. If you don't like the law, change it, but don't condone breaking it.

We do need to get control of our borders AND to address bad labor practices as well.

[Grateful for Hope]

39. Well said

And I concur 100%

[shamrock]

16. To those who don't think

we need to control our borders, try this: go live in one of the border states and leave your doors unlocked.....all the time. Let anyone who wants come in anytime they want. After-all, anyone who comes in will just be looking for something they need, and none of them will be dangerous people. If you're willing to do that for people from another country, why not just do it for people in this country? And no, I'm not racist. I'm married to a man from Peru. My inlaws are all Spanish. I have known people who came here illegally. We NEED to control our borders.

[Bridget Burke]

44. Is it OK to leave your doors unlocked in non-Border states?

New Yorkers--please check in!

[txaslftist]

72. If no one is enforcing people smuggling themselves across the border...

...who is enforcing people smuggling cocaine, laundering money, running guns, or running prostitutes across the border?

Or should those laws be ignored, too?

Border control is not about just stopping workers.

[FreakinDJ]

19. They most certainly are hurting American Tax payers

No Health Care = Emergency room visits

No Visa = get pregnant go on welfare receive free immigration services

No Pension = Increased presure on already strianed social relief services

The ONLY ones that benifit are the WalMart Corps that want CHEAP Labor. Why do we have to fund corp. greed

[RagingInMiami]

21. Hispanics make up 13 percent of the nation's population

They are the nation's largest minority group and they are growing fast. And this is not just because of illegal immigration. Hispanics tend to marry early and have larger families.

Although Hispanics (or Latinos, as we like to call ourselves) can be divided into various sub-groups, they generally vote democrat. The only exception are the Cubans down here in Miami, but even that is changing as we speak.

And even though Hispanics could be Cubans in Miami (or Colombian-American in my case), Puerto Ricans in New York or Mexicans in the Southwest, they all have an affinity towards immigrants. They believe in the American Dream, probably more than those of us who were born here.

They fight in our wars. They join our police forces. They open small businesses.

They are no different than your forefathers (and yes, I know you're going to give me the old "well my ancestors entered legally").

The Hispanics are out there even if they're not on DU. They are going to become an extremely powerful voting bloc in the coming years. We should welcome them into our party rather than push them away.

[shamrock]

24. I don't think the subject here is Hispanics

in particular. The subject is illegal immigrants. It just happens that the majority of illegals are hispanic. I don't think that immigrants, Hispanic or other, who come here legally have much of a problem assimilating into our society. I know that my inlaws have done very well for themselves and have had no problem at all once they learned English. By the way, most of them are Republican.

[RagingInMiami]

25. But Hispanics will view a crackdown on illegal immigration

as anti-Hispanic. And they will take it personal.

[shamrock]

26. From what I've seen

most of the people who come here legally don't liketo see illegal immigration. That's why they did it legally.
And there are other ways to stay here. Like paying someone to marry you so you can get your green-card,(also illegal) or to just marry someone and not tell them that's what you're after, which happens quite often.

[Bridget Burke]

34. Any "crackdown" would involve stopping people on the street....

If they look suspiciously like "illegals." Even if their ancestors were here long before mine crossed the ocean.

Sure, my people came legally. Back then, all white folks had to do was show up at Ellis Island without any obvious diseases. Strong backs were enough.

[txaslftist]

49. Not true. A crackdown on employers wouldn't.

It would involve arresting the managers who hire illegals. And it wouldnt' have anything to do with how they look.

[radio4progressives]

27. The problem is complex & multi-faceted, but using these terms doesn't help

"Illegal Immigration" is a racists, zenophobic term used for well over a century, to promote the same point of view and demonize those seeking refuge and a better way of life since the founding of this country. That's a fact.

we do need to get real about these issues, but we also have to separate them and not broad brush it all in a single package it isn't.

our country's wealth and is largely based on a slave economy and it continues, that is deplorable. Also our environment is being hurt by this.

but we have to be clear and avoid playing into into the white supremcists arguments, or at least avoid doing their battle for them.


and by the way, undocumented workers pay into the tax system, while never reaping the rewards interms of social security or unemployment benefits.

so they don't hurt tax payers in that sense.

The problems with our health care has nothing to do with "illegal" immigration and everything to do with low priority.

I could on and on here, but I don't the time or the energy. but it does sadden me to see right wing spiel among Democrats ...

[shamrock]

33. I think that 'some'

pay into our tax system. Others are paid 'under-the table'. I don't agree with you that being against illegal immigration is racist. That's one of the gimmicks that Republicans use to discredit you if you are against a policy that they know is wrong, but they want to keep. Like for instance, if you don't support the war, or bush, you're anti-American, or un-patriotic.

[RagingInMiami]

35. Whether it's racist or not

Hispanics will view it as racist.

[Bridget Burke]

36. Ever hear of Sales Tax?

It's pretty high here in Texas, where we have not stest income tax. And Property Tax increases are passed on to Renters.

The problem--so MANY opponents of immigration ARE racist. (Not just "illegal" immigration. Quite a few posting here have pointed out that the USA is "full.")

[txaslftist]

50. Okay, how would you describe it, then?

A "coyote" goes into Juarez with a van. He picks up ten Mexican Citizens. He bribes a border official to look the other way. He drives the Mexicans across the border.

He knows it is illegal, they all know it is illegal, hence the term "illegal".

They are crossing a border. They all know it is a border. Hence the term "immigration".

It is also true they can be called "undocumented", but the implication is, hey, I just forgot my papers.

You can call the "workers" instead of immigrants, but then the fact that they crossed a border is no longer explicit, it is implied.

Illegal Immigrant describes the person exactly, whether he's from Mexico, Spain, England, China or Russia. It is a race-neutral term.

I don't get the objection to it.

[Lexingtonian]

37. Don't go overboard on this

This issue is a tarbaby- the Party that embraces and fully engages it is going to end up the loser on it. It's better that Democrats keep it at arm's length.

The opinions involved split both Parties, so there's no net gain involved for either one. The issue itself is simply a huge series of individually small, situational, problems- there isn't a good large scale answer or set policy or abstract ideological solution that is truly workable. The only things that will really solve the practical problems are (a) remove the excessive financial incentives and penalties- economic advantages and offloading of costs- involved and (b) let a bunch of intelligent, wise, circumspect people run the INS to American best interests, with full trust and power of law (which they've been deprived of), i.e. without subjecting them to the sentiments of the mobs and purely political needs of individual politicians.

I think the intelligent Democratic stance is to let Republican plans and policies get their full airing. And then to simply take the stance that (a) none of what Republicans are going to implement is going to work as advertised, that Republicans will screw American workers on this as on everything else, and (b) Republicans have to guarantee that illegals will not die on American streets or land as result of implementing their policies and all will get full due process rights and full equal protection of the laws when apprehended.

Basically, this is an 'issue' where Right winger and reactionary stupidity wants out into the public arena to totally expose itself. It's going to be an ugly and horrible outbreak of inhumanity and overt crude racism and classism, as it always is (I was in California when Prop 214 went through), but the collapse of it upon itself is the thing of importance. This sort of thing can't ultimately be discredited from the outside, it dies from exposing all of itself to sunlight and demonstration that the Right never has productive solutions.

Let the Republicans try their best, to appearances winning, and then watch it fail on them in the electorate. Maybe even blow up, a la the Schiavo thing. The political constituency at stake in all the present arguments is moderate Republicans, the political argument of importance is not Democrat vs Republican but moderate vs hardline Republicans.

Beltway Republican leaders don't dare screw their hardline constituents now and are forced to screw their moderates- the hardliners are becoming very scared of losing power and the country is evidently turning against them, so Doing Nothing is out as an option in Washington, though their footdragging there is very perceptible. But screwing their moderates as consistently as they have to amounts to incrementally cannabilizing their Party's cohesion and basic coalition agreement. At some level they're eating their own or disintegrating no matter what they do- as long as Democrats don't provide them with an easy foil to unite against on a major issue, that slows or temporarily stops their internal decay.

So, the best Democratic game plan is not one of total opposition on this issue or championing illegals or workers or whatever. It's one of exposing Republican ideas and claims on the issue as policies that will fail. Of course Republicans will demand a Democratic 'plan' as something to distract from their stuff, but once the Republican bills pass or fail in Congress no one is going to care about any Democratic counterproposal (that will never have had a chance of any implementation). When the policies involved fail the Democratic critiques raised will be what gets remembered and invoked.

So we have to let things go and stand on pretty minimal guarantees- no illegals dying on American streets or on American soil at the hands of the government or employers, let the profiters from illegals' labor pay for its social costs, no abuse of the courts or Constitution or rights of American residents or rights of foreign citizens in the treatment of illegals. Trust me, there is no way Republican proposals will even try to meet these things or be essentially consistent with the Constitution. Let them try to justify what they propose and want.

[txaslftist]

51. We can't ignore it, Lexingtonian.

The Republicans have (per Karl Rove's memo) decided to make this a "wedge issue" to divide Democrats. The fact is, it IS an issue, it's going to be a big issue, especially in places like Texas, New Mexico and California.

Hillary Clinton knows this, which is why she's taken a position to the right of Bush on the enforcement of illegal immigration laws.

She recognizes that there are two or three huge areas where traditional conservatives are absolutely outraged at the Bush administration. One of them is the deficit. Another of them is the growth in government. And one of them is immigration.

Rove is correct that this is a "wedge issue". It is an issue we can use to wedge traditional conservatives away from neocon Bushistas. It highlights a gigantic Republican failure.

It is an issue that Democrats can find obvious, Democrat-style solutions to:

Streamline the process to come here legally.

Enforce the laws on the books against the employers of illegals.

This is not analytic geometry.

[goodhue]

42. Not my issue

I'm not into fear mongering, nor trampling basic human rights. I have no problem with the presence of so-called "illegal" immigrants in our country.

[txaslftist]

57. What about the presence of so-called "illegals" in our prisons?

Are you okay with that?

Because if you think the present system works just fine, I guess it's all right with you that 40% of our federal prison population are there for immigration related offenses.

To give you some perspective, the federal prison system is larger than the prison system of any single state in the US. The US has more people in prison than any other country in the world.

There are literally hundreds of thousands of people in US prisons on immigration violations.

Streamlining the approach to immigrate here legally will cut that number.

Prosecuting the employers of illegals to reduce demand will also cut that number.

But I guess if "so-called illegals" being exploited by corporations doesn't bother you, "so-called illegals" being in prison doesn't either?

[RagingInMiami]

59. I have more problem with the non-violent drug offenders in our prisons

Those who serve longer sentences than rapists and child molesters and murderers.

[txaslftist]

66. Ugh.

Do you have any idea how long the immigration sentences have become? Guys (and girls) are serving nine and ten year sentences just for illegal re-entry.

There's no way you can say the present system works, and then say you are somehow on the side of the people crossing the border. They are imprisoned in record numbers and they are exploited by (not to put too fine a point on it) Republican-style employers.

[goodhue]

70. Immigration sentences?!

Again, I'm not sure what you are talking about.

[txaslftist]

74. Read my post below.

People go to prison for crossing our borders.

I'm really not making this up.

[RagingInMiami]

83. Then why not crack down on the republican-style employers?

Oh, that would be anti-capitalistic, anti-American and political suicide. Let's just blame the Mexicans instead.

[txaslftist]

86. Oh, I get it. You can't read. Cracking down on the employers is...

... exactly what I recommended in my initial post.

That along with streamlining lawful immigration.

[RagingInMiami]

87. Fuck off with your condescending attitude

[goodhue]

69. What do you mean by immigration related offenses?

People are deported not imprisoned for immigration violations. Immigration offenses are not crimes that lead to imprisonment.

[txaslftist]

73. You are exactly, just plain wrong.

"Illegal Entry" is a crime. Some people are "just deported" for it. Some people are put in prison for it, for up to six months a pop. I've had a number of clients get exactly that.

"Illegal Re-entry" is a crime. You can get two years prison for that one.

"Illegal Re-entry after Deportation" carries up to twenty years. It is not uncommon for people to get six, eight, even ten to twelve year sentence for this crime.

So people can, and absolutely do go to prison for it.

When I said 40% of our prison population is in prison for immigration offenses, I'm talking about these crimes, plus "harboring" (having them at your house), "transporting" (giving a ride), and all the crimes that relate to false papers, false documents, running false document labs, etc.

But no one is in prison for hiring.

[goodhue]

78. Thanks

I was thinking of "unlawful presence", which I believe is not a crime. At least not yet. Rather it is a civil offense. Folks who overstay visas, for example, do not commit a crime.

[cpamomfromtexas]

56. You are Correct, pitting people against one another is the key

It doesn't matter if it is illegals vs legals or union vs non-union. Corporations win anytime they can pit people against one another and a worker willing to work for less slips in and takes a job from YOU!

The immediate need is to reverse the taking of American jobs by illegals, and by exporting jobs.

The first step is to PUT EMPLOYERS IN JAIL IF THEY BREAK THE LAW. IF IT IS A PUBLIC COMPANY, PUT THE CEO IN JAIL.

TRUST ME, IT WILL STOP YESTERDAY IF THIS IS ENFORCED.

As far as illegals go, let's just look at each time we have to support deportation, we deduct the cost from any foreign aid given to the country or tack on a tariff to the goods they send here. We won't need a wall then, they'll take care of it for us.

In Fort Worth, most of the school children are illegals. I'd love to educate everyone, but the Middle class just can't foot the bill for everything.

[txaslftist]

61. Nope. Uniting people in common cause is the key.

Curbing illegal immigration requires two policy steps, aside from a fence.

1. Streamline the process for lawful immigration.

2. Prosecute employers who hire illegals. And you are right. Vigorous prosecution of employers will cut immigration dramatically and quickly.

[RagingInMiami]

63. Something worth looking into

"As far as illegals go, let's just look at each time we have to support deportation, we deduct the cost from any foreign aid given to the country or tack on a tariff to the goods they send here. We won't need a wall then, they'll take care of it for us."

[txaslftist]

67. How about having them fund the cost of imprisoning the aliens?

[RagingInMiami]

84. They are not aliens

They are immigrants.

And yes, I am aware of the definition in the dictionary.

[oneoftheboys]

76. You are 100% correct; however,

this is the one issue that demonstrates the corruption of all politicians.

Nothing will be done to stop illegal immigration.

[txaslftist]

79. ALL politicians are not corrupt.

You've been listening to the right wing spin on the indictments. It's the "everyone does it" defense that they are hoping to use to avoid repurcussions for their crimes.

DON'T FALL FOR IT!

This is the most corrupt administration since Harding, maybe even more corrupt than that one.

Don't let them spin their way out of the mess they've made.

[earth mom]

80. Agree with you-it's total exploitation on both sides of the fence...

and when people frame it as racist, I say to them, "well then, open the borders to the ENTIRE WORLD." Of course they don't want to do that! :eyes:

[Solon]

82. It actually isn't as partisan as it could be...

plus some of the "solutions" put forward by politicians are just stupid and expensive wastes. Like that wall/fence idea, stupidity there. I agree there is a problem, however your solution is but one step and one approach for a multi-faceted problem and it needs multi-faceted solutions. If you want the workers on your side then you need to tie this single issue with another that is also part of the cause for the uptick in illegal immigration. That issue is free trade, NAFTA in particular, but also the WTO/IMF. Is it really any surprise that more Mexicans are moving into this country looking for jobs when American corporations are OUTSOURCING jobs from Mexico to Indonesia or Guatamala? We need to look at the cause for illegal immigration. These people are not stupid, they know they are taking a huge risk in many cases, leaving family and friends behind, but they are desparate. Part of the reason for that desparation is the fact that their local economies were destroyed through NAFTA, and then, due to newer free trade aggreements, they find the shitty jobs they had the "privelege" to have are then outsourced.

When all hope is lost, and there are no protections for those who lose their jobs, they will move elsewhere to find said jobs. There are several solutions to this that can take place, first is to Reform NAFTA, namely by putting labor rights and enviromental/safety regulations in it, along with eliminating "investor rights"(Chapter 11), to gradually equalize the labor standards of the three nations that are signatories. Another reform that can be added onto to this is to actually free labor the same way capital is freed between the nations, like in the EU. Another solution is to simply get rid of NAFTA, and then replace it with the "old" system of protectionism so that both the United States and Mexico can rebuild their respective manufacturing capabilities.

The key is this, we should frame the issue between workers and managers, in other words, declare class warfare the other way around. But, with a key difference, we should hammer home, again and again, that, not only are illegal immigrants themselves not at fault for the woes of the American worker, but that it is the Chambers of Commerce, on all sides of all borders, who make deals that screw the workers, on all sides of the borders. We do that and a lot of the disaffected American workers who have been outsourced will be on our side, Latino activists, with the exception of the Cuban exiles, will also support such measures. It doesn't really matter where the workers are born, or where they go for work, that neither hurts nor helps workers in other areas of the continent, in and of itself. However, it is the managers, owners, and politicians, that profit off the back of all these workers who hurt them the most.

[Bridget Burke]

88. Dangerous Ideas!

This is why they want to set American Workers against Mexican Workers. What if the workers got together? It would cause some very important, very rich folks no end of trouble.



www.iww.org/

[Solon]

89. "Workers of the world, Unite!" is one of the most dangerous ideas...

to the rich and ruling elite of the world. I say, let them squirm, on thing I found heartening was the relatively recent protests against the FTAA and WTO for the past 6 or so years. I saw Mexican Sharecroppers, American Union Workers, from miners to steelworkers, Enviromentalists, the Green Party, local co-ops, farmers, ranchers, and even small business owners all protesting against free trade. This must scare the owners to death.