Has our nation ever been in deeper shit?

[Stinky The Clown]

My parting thought for the evening ....... is there any other time in the history of our country when the nation was in deeper shit than it is now?

I can make cases that the answer is 'no'. I can also make cases that the answer is yes.

For example ..... the Civil War. Our nation would have been ripped apart. But the result may well have been a happier America and a satisfied Confederacy .... since, in many ways, that war still rages.

The Great Depression ...... almost everyone was affected and it resulted in a more unified nation ...... one that won the greatest war ever fought. That period also gave rise to the quality of life we had until Dick Tater stole our presidency.

World War II ....... in many ways our nation's finest hour. Righteous and brave. Common sacrifice and common effort ... all for the national good. A period when we had a President who was arguably the best one we ever had.

And then there's now ......... How do you feel about this idea? Are we in the deepest shit we've ever been?

Good night ...... sleep well.

[snowbear]

1. They are in this deep.......

~~~~~~~~ (( http://eliteleague.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/lol!.gif ))

[Erika]

2. No, it has never been in deeper shit

On all accounts. I won't sleep well. We used to be a country of hope and peace. W replaced it with fear, fear, and more fear, with a heavy dosage of fear.

[InsultComicDog]

44. Sure we have been in deeper shit

The Civil War comes to mind as an obvious example.

[xray s]

3. No doubt this is our darkest hour

In all your other examples the American public was wide awake and fully engaged in the political process. They understood the Constitution. They understood what was at stake.

They are asleep at the wheel now. They are lazy and stupid and don't give a shit. They are cowards and they are ripe for a fascist takeover of our government and the abolition of the Constitution.

I am sorry i am so negative tonight but I have had my fill of this insanity and can't take it anymore.

[Erika]

6. Bushbots would rather flush our Constitution down the toilet

than realize their responsibility to uphold the Constitution and realize how badly they hurt our country by voting for W.

[Stinky The Clown]

29. Somehow I'm starting to think that maybe the repubs will die the

death of a thousand cuts rather than a cataclysmic explosion.

Yes, they get away with everything ... or so it seems ......

But someday the tide will turn. My thinking is in the 06 midterms.

[serryjw]

4. I think we have had several times including the

60's losing JFK, RFK, Martin & Vietnam and how it tore this country/families apart BUT we have never seen the amount of wealth concentrated in one party. I see this as our biggest problem. I am reading Bush's Brain and The 2000 election between Bushit & McCain is a perfect example. Bushit early in the primaries had raised more money than ALL the Dem/Thug candidates put together. No one runs for the presidency any more..they are anointed by each party. Kerry certainly was. He won ONE primary in Iowa and he was our nominee.

The world today is so small today different than during the civil war. EVERYTHING that happens in this world effects everyone.

[C_U_L8R]

5. OT: How come Grover Norquist sounds like...

the name of a Muppet.. a very evil Muppet ?????

[Stinky The Clown]

30. Hahahahaha

[Redneck Socialist]

41. Woah, this post wasn't anywhere near where I wanted it.

Gotta lay off the wine. :crazy:

[cliss]

7. Answer = we're finished.

Here's why. You're right: the Civil War was horrific. Abraham Lincoln said that it's the worst kind of war "because it's brother against brother". And it took a long time for the country to heal its wounds.

It's true: the Depression ultimately brought us closer together. That time period (about 1929 to 1933) actually paved the way for better legislation and setting up rules so we wouldn't repeat the mistakes from that era. Up until then, it was a kind Jungle Law, like the Stock market where you could do all kinds of crazy things. The suffering strengthened our economy.

And who can argue: WW2 was our finest hour. No argument there.

But THIS war.....the war in Iraq. It will destroy this country. It already has. I'm an accountant, and I think the damage is much, MORE worse than they tell us. They're lying about the TRUE figures about how much this war has cost us, so we don't know for sure. But we are without a doubt bankrupt right now. We're borrowing 2 BILLION DOllars per day, just to service our debt. Not to mention our reputation around the world. It's shot to shit.

[GrumpyGreg]

10. I was born in the depression---scary time!

I remember WWII--scary time.

I remember the Cold War and fears of nuclear war---scary time.

I remember the loss of JFK---scary time.

I remember the Vietnam protests and the battles for civil rights---scary time.

This,to me,is just another scary time.

[Journeyman]

8. Had the Civil War ended differently. . .

trade on the Mississippi would not flow freely, there'd be soldiers at State borders, a race of people would be in chains, and the concept that in a democracy those who lose an election will peaceably accede to the result would have been shattered. That's only the start of our miseries. Can't see that this in any measure would have made for a happier America or a satisfied Confederacy.

[Stinky The Clown]

31. I'm not sure your scenario would play out ......

except for the time right after the war. I should think that by now some peace and accommodation would have been made ...... and as in South Africa, oppression of Blacks would be lessened there due to world pressure.

[Journeyman]

36. I imagine the slaves in Dixie would disagree. . .

freedom in 1865 or in some indefinite term of the future -- not a great tradeoff when you're the one wearing iron. Undeniably, the Mississippi would now flow through two nations -- one considerably poorer than the other. To take the events of today in perspective, Northern trade would depend on Southern ability to rebuild New Orleans. . . a sure prelude to economic disaster for the Midwest and all the rest. And over and above all, the resolve that this "nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure," would have been shattered. You and I would not live in a democracy. How could we imagine it would have survived in truncated form, given that the War would have proved that it was legitimate for the nation to commit political suicide and tear itself asunder.

No, Abraham Lincoln fought for values and ideals far greater than the petty concerns of small people. "I shall do nothing in malice," he declared. "What I deal with is too vast for malicious dealing." And the debt we all owe him is immeasurable and cannot be seen by those unable to rise above sectional animosities.

[Stinky The Clown]

38. Its hard to know just how things would have played out had we had a ......

..... century and a half to live with the country being divided. I still suspect that the worst time would have been right after the war. The Mississippi would likely have been blockaded and our midwest would have seen other routes developed to keep commerce going. The northern canals come to mind. Enhanced and more robust rail transport. We can only guess.

As to those in irons ..... yes, not a great tradeoff. But as I said above, they'd likely still have been enamcipated .... eventually. World pressure would not have allowed it to continue. That said, I think you're correct. They're better off the way things played out, not with a divided country as their only hope.

[longship]

9. This is an excellent discussion question.

The War of 1812 was no minor issue either. The White House was burned down in that one.

I would place the Civil War at the top.
Second, the Depression.
Third, the War of 1812.
Fourth, WW II.

I see the current situation developing into something that may eclipse all of these. Specifically, the whittling away of Constitutional rights in this regime is leading to a point where another big terrorist attack will bring down the whole mess. Martial law will be declared and buh-bye republic.

Alternatively, further ChimpCo escapades in war may escalate. Buh-bye whatever.

I am very worried about what could happen. But I am optimistic that the situation is turning around. The only question is, do we regain control before something happens to take away what few rights we have left. I think we will. I think ChimpCo is toast. We'll just have to see.

And keep pushing Congress Critters to keep pushing.

[merwin]

11. I think currently we are not in the deepest shit we have been in.

Each generation thinks that their problems are the worst ever, but if you study history (and not just textbooks, but actual history), there were plenty of times where the outlook was much more grim.

However, if the Republicans get another 4 years, it could very well turn into the deepest shit.

[snowbear]

18. I disagree Merlin.

And I completely agree with the others on this one.

There is no way in Hell that we've NEVER EVER been in a worst situation than the lying SOB George Bush has put us in.

Never!

[Acryliccalico]

12. This is the deepest.........n/t

[MadisonProgressive]

13. I can only speak from personal experience since 1954

Nope.

[leftstreet]

14. The current shit's been building up since the 60s.

If you look back at the Civil Rights Movement, the Vietnam war protests, the Kent State shootings - fear has been used increasingly as political manipulation and control of the masses. Since then we've slowly adapted to a militarized society / police state, and I think the "terrorists" of 9/11 are just part of that fear/control/police state mentality.

I wish the Bush Crime Syndicate would collectively grow their hair out, get laid, and get stoned. (In any order.)

[Yupster]

15. How can you compare today to the Civil War

One quarter of the adult white men in the south were killed during the war and another quarter wounded. An entire region made destitute when their currency was ruled worthless.

I realize everyone thinks they have it worse than anyone else in history, but really there's no comparison between now and the Civil War era.

[tularetom]

16. Pretty close to the deepest

Problem is in the past we had a press that felt obligated to tell the public the truth about what was going on. Now our press believes their duty is to the government to keep us in the dark. My feeling is that if more Amurcans realized what the government is up to there would be a mob advancing on the white house with lanterns and pitchforks, buckets of tar and lots of feathers. Instead we have given these punks carte blanche because of the constant drone of fear, fear, fear that we hear everyday on radio and TV.

Our forefathers said: "Give me liberty or give me death".

Today we say: "Take my liberty just save me from death".

[ddeclue]

17. Only in the Constitutional department.

There have been plenty of other more serious times in America.

Today isn't even close to the top in terms of comparing it to the War of 1812, the Civil War, World War I, the Great Influenze, the Great Depression, World War II, the Korean War, the Cold War, the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Vietnam War, or the Civil Rights movement.

What we are facing now is just a repeat, (albeit worse in many respects) of King Richard M. Nixon (King Richard the third) except with King George the Second.

The doctor says "impeachment" will cure what ails you.

Doug D.

[Extend a Hand]

19. This is deeper than it has ever been...the darkest hours are yet to come

The United States is facing an economic crisis of epic proportions. Since the year 2000 the money supply has been increased in an amount equal to the entire money supply of the previous 200 years-- with no commisurate increase in created value. Our economy requires continuous growth (as opposed to sustainability) and alas it is unlikely to continue once enery demand outstrips supply.

The world wide peak of oil production is imminent if it has not already passed.

http://www.hubbertpeak.com/hubbert/hubecon.htm

His thesis is that society is seriously handicapped because its two most important intellectual underpinnings, the science of matter-energy and the historic system of finance, are incompatible. A reasonable co-existence is possible when both are growing at approximately the same rate. That, Hubbert says, has been happening since the start of the industrial revolution but it is soon going to end because the amount the matter-energy system can grow is limited while money's growth is not.

"I was in New York in the 30's. I had a box seat at the depression," Hubbert says. "I can assure you it was a very educational experience. We shut the country down because of monetary reasons. We had manpower and abundant raw materials. Yet we shut the country down. We're doing the same kind of thing now but with a different material outlook. We are not in the position we were in 1929-30 with regard to the future.
<more at link above>

Biologists are absolutely frantic about the likely prospect of the extinction of numerous species of animals within the next twenty five years and nobody seems to care.

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2005/01/31_olsond_biodiversity/
Scientists say wildlife extinction rates are soaring. The die-off, they claim, threatens the planet's web of life or biodiversity which sustains farming, forestry and oceans. At a Paris meeting last week scientists called on world leaders to catalog and save species. One of the speakers was University of Minnesota ecology professor David Tilman. He's known around the world for his research showing the effects of human activity on the environment.


Global Warming and its impacts are continuing to worsen dramatically within our life time.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0301-02.htm
Recently, I came across a frightening report published by the US National Academy of Sciences (NAS) - the nation's most august scientific body. Yet, because there was no visually provocative content, the report had received only a couple of short paragraphs tucked away inside a few newspapers.

Here is what the academy had to say: it is possible that the global warming trend projected over the course of the next 100 years could, all of a sudden and without warning, dramatically accelerate in just a handful of years - forcing a qualitative new climatic regime which could undermine ecosystems and human settlements throughout the world, leaving little or no time for plants, animals and humans to adjust.

It may already be to late to save our country from facsism.
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

Everything seems to be converging at once.

And I learned about all this stuff while I was surfing around trying to give myself that little "this to shall pass" pep talk after the last election.

[countmyvote4real]

20. We are in the deepest shit since King George III.

We are in the deepest shit since King George III.
At that time we had no Constitution and were ruled by a despot who cared nothing about our country and kinsmen other that what he could extract as a personal profit.

Flash forward.
We had a living and breathing Constitution that evolved with our democracy until the 2000 SCOTUS halted and nullified the State of Florida’s election procedures and appointed/anointed the consequently self-presumed King George IV with a hidden agenda to dismantle and nullify our Constitution.

Going full circle.
We are now ruled by a despot and cabal (that no longer has any checks and balances from our Federal government); who care nothing about our country and kinsmen other than what they can extract for personal profit.

Sound familiar? It should. It’s history.
We are devolving. My knee jerk reaction is to call it the theory of “Dumb Ass Design” except that I don’t throw this label on a presumed or not Deity. I lob this on minions of morons that believe in their hearts that these “truths” will not apply to them. Bless their stupid thinking and hateful hearts. (Even an atheist can have compassion.)

In short, we are almost in the deepest shit since we declared our Declaration of Independence (In truth I believe it is even graver because most Americans don’t have a clue about history and can’t afford the time to figure out the truth.

[Stinky The Clown]

32. I'm not sure I see it being quite as dire as you suggest .....

Not disagreeing with you. I just think we have *at least* one more chance ...... the 06 midterms.

After that .... maybe I agree with you fully.

[countmyvote4real]

40. I shared your thoughts once as well.

It'll get better in '02. It'll get better in '04. It didn't. It got worse.

However, I do share your hope for the '06 elections. (Well, at least the ones that aren't rigged.)

[grasswire]

21. nobody's mentioning the coup attempt on FDR...

...but I suspect that was a dangerous time for the Constitution. The elite industrialists attempted a military coup to depose Roosevelt. They counted on U.S. Marine Corps General Smedley Butler to administer the coup de grace -- a full military coup. However, Smedley ratted them out.

Many Americans have never heard of that dangerous episode. We oughta be celebrating Smedley Butler Day!

H2S, I found a book that helps put things in perspective. It's a compilation of the most significant front pages of the New York Times for about 70 years or so. The front pages, replicated in the book. Horrible assassinations, wars, disasters, betrayals, corruption, crimes, etc. It wasn't that long ago that several U.S. congressmen were GUNNED DOWN in the chamber!

I honestly don't know if this is the worst of times. But I've never detested any people as I do now.

[Stinky The Clown]

33. "But I've never detested any people as I do now."

On this point, I fully agree.

I am saddened and amazed at how capable I am of real hate. I don't like that part of me ... but there it is.

[OneBlueSky]

22. during the Civil War there weren't nuclear weapons and . . .

airplanes and electronic eavesdropping and all of the other modern inventions that make this time in history far more dangerous than any other, imo . . . it's not just the depth of the shit, it's what it's made of . . .

[ngGale]

23. Yep, we are SO over....

as a country.:scared:

[No Exit]

24. 'Bye, America. Thanks for the memory.

The problems of 250,000,000 little people don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world. Oh, well... we'll always have Lexington.

We said goodbye with a highball,
And I got as high as a steeple,
But we were intelligent people--
No tears, no fuss,
Hooray for us..."

[autorank]

25. No, it hasn't. We're not even to the main course yet. Eco-catastrophes.

Oh, sure, we're getting a little taste here and there--the odd tsunami, hurricanes, droughts, fires, etc. But wait until 2300. According to the Livermore Laboratories, global warming isn't a question of if but how fast. 2300--40 degree rise in temperature on average, no polar caps, zilch,zip, nada, gone for good. Oh, almost forgot a 20 foot rise in sea level. Yehaaa! We're rokken!

But before then we get to look forward to the following in the next 7-15 years according to a Pentagon report on "the biggest threat to national security" (eco catastrophes): the end of the Gulf Stream, finito, buy your coats England and Ireland; massive drought in the equatorial regions; hordes of people, starving, headed toward more temperate areas, i.e., Europe, and so forth.

A common form of anxiety among grade schoolers occurs when they hear about the sun burning out is a gazillion years. Well, we've got 295 before it's time to leave the planet. Swell. Thanks for the fish.

But, sleep easy, the lizard people who rule our planet will have no problems. In fact, this is probably their favorite climate.




PS. Husb, this is why we the very smartest candidate to run this joint!

Cheers

[Stinky The Clown]

34. Autorank .... you da one!

:thumbsup: and

http://www.fs.fed.us.nyud.net:8090/newcentury/images/high%20five.gif

[anitar1]

26. There has always been an undercurrent of violence in

our country,if one researches , it can be found. I have been around for quite awhile and cannot recall such a feeling of foreboding as I have now. I think we are in very deep shit. This large group of criminals are so close to destroying the government as we know it. This is a long planned program they are running. Not sure where it will end up. If they are defeated, we have to have real reform. We can no longer operate as we have in the past.

[Lexingtonian]

27. I'm not sure

I doubt it somewhat.

But what I don't doubt is that this has been the longest the country has ever taken to extricate itself from this depth of crap to where it isn't deep enough to drown in it anymore. Friggin' most mentally comatose and irresponsible and traitorous Right we've ever had.

As for the Civil War, we've been recapitulating it in slow-mo as political fighting for 15 years. Roughly a year of its power-political developments revisited per recent Presidential term. The first time it was fought to realize the 13th Amendment, this time we're fighting about rightful realization of the 14th and 15th. I like to think we're into the late winter of 1865 parts of the replay, both sides badly worn, but with the North inching into superior fighting units and strategic victory while the Southern war machinery began to disintegrate.

[Silverhair]

28. Nowhere near the worst time for the nation.

Take a look at what Wilson did domestically during WWI. Among other things he had his AG organize Americans to spy on Americans looking for "unpatriotic behavior". Not illegal behavior, but unpartiotic behavior. Tens of thousands of Americans joined to spy on their friends and neighbors.

In WWII, look what we did to Japanese-Americans.

And in each case, America bounced back.

[Stinky The Clown]

35. The Japanese internment camps were a true travesty

One carried, ironically, under the leadership of arguably the best president we ever had ... FDR.

Nothing is black and white, is it?

[OneTwentyoNine]

39. And the McCarthy hearings in the 50's

Just being called in could ruin your life,business everything. Look at all the blacklisted Hollywood actors,directors etc.

Things haven't steered that far south but Bush still has three years.

[Silverhair]

46. Yes, those too.

In each case those actions had popular support because people were afraid, and the fears were out of proportion to the threat, except for the Civil War. There the fear was realistic to the threat, and the emergency powers that Lincoln took were actually needed.

Once the fear calmed down, America took back the freedoms.

I am greatly concerned in this case, but not because of Bush. I try to think past personalities of the moment and look at large scale trends. I see the threat genuinely growing worse and the fear getting greater and the loss of freedoms, (mainly privacy rights) to be growing and permanent. And I don't see anything anybody can do about it.

[BlueIris]

37. Nope. nt

[Redneck Socialist]

42. Nah, these aren't anywhere near the worst times our country has seen. n/t

[SaveElmer]

43. As much as I would like to lay this "honor" at Bush's feet...

I really can't...

There is no comparison of the current situation to the Civil War, the Depression, WWII, or even VietNam that could yield that result.

[NativeTexan]

45. In a word.....

......NO!

Seems the Bush "strategery" has proved to be just a bit faulty...huh?