Howard Dean. like Kerry in '04, sticks his foot in mouth on Latin America

[IndianaGreen]

Remember when Kerry sided with the Venezuelan elites during the 2004 Presidential campaign? Remember how much flak Kerry caught from progressives for parroting the lies of the Bush dictatorship? We now have Howard Dean following in his footsteps:

CNN LATE EDITION WITH WOLF BLITZER

Interview With Shimon Peres; Interview With Benjamin Netanyahu

Aired January 8, 2006 - 11:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DEAN: Look at what's happening in Latin America. This president, while saying that he wants to further democracy and capitalism, is driving people in the opposite direction.

We need real leadership in this country and we don't have it right now.

BLITZER: Are you blaming the president on the elections in Bolivia or on the elections in Venezuela? Is that what you're saying?

DEAN: We had an enormous opportunity, when this president took office, and he said he was going to reach out to Latin America. Instead, he has turned them off. He's been high-handed with them; he's rejected them.

He's ignored the economic plight of their folks. And so, we're getting something that I think most Americans wish we didn't have, which is left-leading regimes in these places. We need a president who will work constructively and cooperatively with our allies around the world so that we really can move capitalism and democracy further into the world and not turn off people. When you turn people off, as the most powerful nation in the world, they are obviously going to do something that is not in our best interest. And that's exactly what's going on right now.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0601/08/le.01.html

[madfloridian]

1. Well, IG can you say Chavez...oil....china...not us?

?

[eve_was_framed]

96. yes, and that's soley because of the idiot in office here.

[NYCGirl]

2. Dean is siding with the elites? Perhaps you better read the transcript

again. You seem to be misreading something.

[madfloridian]

4. This is exactly what I have been talking about.

Dean is not left enough. The people doing it want a 3rd party. I have been saying this, that everytime he goes on TV....the right attacks. But that is to be expected.

Now there is the left...which I usually have not a thing against. BUT they are not Democrats. They do not think as Democrats, they do not want to be Democrats.

They want a 3rd party. They need to bring Dean down to do it. He is sort of in between left and right, and he can not be allowed to succeed because then a 3rd party is not an option.

This is what I was talking about.

[NYCGirl]

7. Well, let 'em go third party if they must. Then they'll have even less

power. I honestly don't see what's wrong with the transcript.

[UDenver20]

55. Agreed....

There's nothing wrong with what he said... Dean's still my boy.... and even if there was, he'd still be my boy.

Howard Dean speaks for me!!!

[UDenver20]

57. Lemme guess... you voted for NADER in 2000

[madfloridian]

62. Was that addressed to me? Confused.

No, I didn't.

[sandnsea]

91. Well shut my mouth again

WTF!! We agree again. Oh, the world won't be able to take it if the two of us agree on much more!

[radio4progressives]

102. Madfloridian - You're analysis is flawed and here's why...

first let me get out of the way, i was going to first make, as speculative point, that i think Dean was engaged in a posturing tactic, to establish himself in the media (and on the record) as the Centrist that he truly always has been.

And because even those who self identify as Democratic "moderates" constantly and wrongfully accuse him of being a "leftist fringe" solely because of his moral position against the war on Iraq - as if that should have ever been considered as a "left / right" issue - by the media, by the right and by the right wing DLC.

Now - on the matter of South America - yes, the Left will vehemently disagree with Dean's remarks on this matter as well we should - and for good reason.

But please do not make the mistake in conflating that issue with so called interest in creating a "third party" as I've seen you state a number of times.

(There are already THIRD PARTIES - actually there are a plethora of "THIRD" parties - I'm a life long registered member of the Democratic party- but have on occasions voted Green in local and state elections, voted Peace & Freedom in local and state elections and voted Independent in local and state elections.)

Whether or not there are number of people who talk about leaving the Democratic party, (because of lack of representation) - by creating yet another third party (to add to a very long list of third parties) is a separate question than that of critising Dean or anyone else on MAJOR policy issues, whether it's the war in Iraq, or the current "regime change" saber rattling against democratically elected Leftist leaders in South American countries (vis a vis CIA assinations etc) and the current hand wringing and ruminations because South American leaders are working to establish independence from decades long imposed Neo Liberal economic policies that have been a huge diservice for the economic well being of the common people in those countries.

It is imperative that people here understand that for decades the United States have been engaged in horrific policies concerning Cuba (the Carribean Islands as a whole) Central and South America - it's a long history of imperialistic machinations and horrific crimes against humanity that is at question here - and yes the Left is very mindful, very senstive, and very very concerned about our current policies, and about any future Democratic Party Administration's policies concerning South America.

Please don't conflate the two issues by diminishing the import of this MAJOR POLICY matter.

[madfloridian]

109. My analysis is only flawed if you think Dean was saber-rattling.

Which he was not. Which IG seems to think he was based on a couple of words.

The left also has a responsibility not to take words and come up with overkill. We have enough of that from the right.

Pinochet like coup, my hind foot. How did we get there from Dean's interview. This is ridiculous.

And BTW, I have been at DU almost 3 years, and at other forums as well. I am quite aware of the things this country has done in my name. I don't like it, but taking this from all the good things in that interview is harmful.

[radio4progressives]

111. It's just as much far a field to claim that critisim on this issue is the

same as "taking party leaders down" or the same as "trying to take down the party" ... that's just flat out reactionary.

Especially since it's a fact that the Left has no voice in this country. It's not as if the Corporate MSM was a leftist mouthpiece or allows for genuine leftists views expressed there. It has never been allowed in the history of the United States - much less now, a time where the most extreme right wing has successfully hijacked all branches of government in this country, with the assistance and appeasement of the right wing of the DP.

This is a forum where genine Leftists do have the opportunity to express our concerns and yes critisims, but equating this excerise as "taking the party down" or a party leader down is really distorting the case.

[madfloridian]

120. Not if you are really aware of what is going on.

And if you are not, you need to be.

Genuine leftists are fine with me. I think everyone is entitled to their point of view. But we are not going to have that much longer in this country unless we all get together to fight the right wing machine.

And that will happen when hell freezes over.

There are ordinary times and extraordinary times....these times are beyond extraordinary. We are even having to battle the extremists in our own party who are most likely imbedded Republicans in many cases.

So to take one sentence that Howard Dean says in a powerful interview and practically equate it with declaring war on Latin America is overkill...

[sasha031]

3. I was making that point earlier

I am pissed about it, I give to the DNC every month, I think I am going to write Dean a letter and not give for awhile.
I am so sick of Dem's advocating for corporate interest instead of people.

[madfloridian]

5. We all knew this would be happening. Right on schedule.

Please go straight to the DNC and withdraw contributions.

[OzarkDem]

84. Dean's right, unless you're supporting Bush

Sorry, I don't see what you're complaining about.

[madfloridian]

88. I am complaining about people talking about stopping donations?

Maybe I am just having a bad day, and not very clear today.

[Jim Sagle]

6. What's your problem with plain English?

Dean is blaming our troubles in South America on the Bush gang. That's what any good and effective Democratic spokesperson SHOULD do.

All good Dems should applaud what Dean said AND how he said it, instead of PRETENDING that he put his foot in his mouth.

[madfloridian]

8. Many taking this sentence out of context are not Democrats....

most of them are not.

Dean has never pleased many of these same people because he is not "left" enough.

He never pretended to be. I have said this would happen, everytime he has a moment of success they will come to point out that he is not left enough.

[shance]

15. Floridian please don't demonize those of us who disagree with

such a statement.

I disagree with Governor Dean on this one.

First off, what defines "left leaning"?

It would be a government that supports the people and not a monopoly by the rich, which is what Dean has supported as have many if not most Americans.

Isn't that what Governor Dean's campaign was about from the beginning?

Chavez and the new Bolivian leader are doing absolutely what is right by countering such an extremist, almost predatory expansion by those who care little but accumulating all power from everyone else. If thats not extreme, I truly don't know what is.

It is my hope that Dean continues to believe what he espoused. I believe he does, however I am disappointed by this statement.

As far as the state of the world, and speaking as a woman, Im concerned that those in power for a large part have moved so far towards an elitist, social darwinian position and so far to the right, that any realm of "left leaning" is now a leader who is simply doing what is right.

[madfloridian]

20. Demonize? There is nothing wrong with not being Democrat.

I have thought of leaving the party myself a lot of times. I just don't think there is a need to take down the Democrats to have a 3rd party.

I think people who want one should go form it.

IG went after Dean and Kerry in her post.

I am sorry, but I am from a very moderate background. If people keep pushing, I will take the known over the unknown anytime. I want change, but I don't like to see this.

I know what is going on.

[IndianaGreen]

35. Why John Kerry Must Retract his Position on Venezuela

For the benefit of those that may miss the big picture regarding Latin America:

Published on Friday, March 26, 2004 by CommonDreams.org

Why John Kerry Must Retract his Position on Venezuela

by VenezuelAnalysis.com

The Democratic candidate for President of the United States, John Kerry, published a statement on his web site this past March 19, setting forth his position on the political situation in Venezuela. In this declaration, Kerry relies on inaccurate information and repeats views identical to those of the Venezuelan opposition to democratically-elected President Hugo Chavez.

We examine below Kerry's statement in more detail:

Referendum

Kerry urges President Chavez to allow the recall referendum against his mandate to occur. The reality is that the President has no legal means, to either impede or permit a recall referendum. It can only be achieved if those requesting the referendum collect the number of valid signatures required by the regulations.

The Senator states that, "the international community cannot permit President Chávez to subvert this process, as he has tried to do up until now." Nevertheless, Kerry does not specify how the President has tried to subvert this process. Kerry conveniently omits the fact that it was President Chávez who proposed to include the possibility of these referenda in the new Constitution that was drafted by a Constitutional Assembly elected by popular vote. Chávez has called for a review of signatures collected by the opposition because, as per numerous credible reports, there appears to have been substantial fraud committed during the signature drive. What is so terrible about denouncing fraud and calling for an investigation of hundreds of thousands of petitions filled out by the same handwriting? Kerry surely would expect the same type of investigation to occur if there were evidence of fraud in any electoral process he was a part of.

As it stands, those whose signatures appear on petitions that were filled out by the same handwriting will soon have the chance to confirm their identity and intention to sign the petition requesting a recall referendum. It is the opposition that has opposed this process. Chávez has repeatedly stated that he will respect whatever decision is made by the nation's electoral authorities regarding a referendum.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0326-01.htm

Published on Friday, March 26, 2004 by CommonDreams.org

Senator Kerry: You Want My Vote? Support My Positions!

by Ann Samuelson

As with many prior Democratic presidential candidates, I fully expect to see Kerry move to the right as we get closer to the election. We can see this kind of movement in a speech Kerry made on March 19th when he condemned Hugh Chavez, the democratically elected President of Venezuela. Candidate Kerry characterized Chavez's policies as "detrimental to our interests" and suggested he was undermining Venezuela's democracy as well as supporting Columbian rebels. Kerry singled out Chavez's friendship with Fidel Castro for special condemnation and accused him of impeding a recall referendum. Prior to this, news reports suggested Chavez was trying to court a friendship with Kerry.

So what are Chavez's real crimes? He's undertaken a land reform in Venezuela, giving idle lands to poor peasants; many of these lands were previously under the jurisdiction of large plantation owners. Also, he's taken on big oil interests by passing laws that doubled the royalty taxes paid by oil operators and he's asserted control over the state owned state oil company, which was previously controlled by foreign oil interests. It's telling that one of the few places you can find the full text of Kerry's speech is on Petroleum World website (http://www.petroleumworld.com/Edit4Mar24.htm).

I would doubt the majority of Americans know who Hugh Chavez is or care about America's relationship with him. If this speech is not earning Kerry points with the voters, why is he making it? It's a wink and a nod at the wealthy and the corporations who have business interests in Venezuela. Through this speech he's implying that while he might take left stances in public, he's really siding with big corporate interests just like Bush.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0326-13.htm

[LittleClarkie]

115. Why John Kerry must lie, and say he believes something that he doesn't

Now, why would that be a good thing?

How about "Why we must convince John Kerry his position is wrong."

If he doesn't think it's wrong, he's not retracting it, because he wasn't parroting the Bush dictatorship. He was saying what he believed. He's like that.

[IndianaGreen]

121. It so happens that what Kerry was saying was the same Condi Rice was sayin

Kerry merely repeated the GOP talking points about Venezuela that Rice, Rumsfeld, and Bush were saying.

If Kerry believed their lies on Venezuela, then he is in the same self-imposed ignorance that he was when he voted for IWR believing that Bush's lies about WMD were true, and ignoring millions of people from across the world that thought otherwise.

[ulysses]

64. can one be a Democrat and

not believe that left governments in Latin America are bad things?

[RagingInMiami]

85. Most people in this country are ignorant about politics

And see Chavez and Morales as evil communist who will plot against the U.S. So if Dean said anything in support of them, he would be chastised as a communist sympathizer and he would be back to the 1950s.

[LittleClarkie]

118. The return favor would also be appreciated

Not that you have done this, but I think others come close. I can see disagreeing with Gov. Dean, without saying that either he or Kerry are "parrotting" the Bush administration, or saying that either he or Kerry are against the poor or oppressed. They aren't even against democracy. They don't like the choice that was made. Other countries haven't like the choices we've made. That doesn't mean that those other countries are against democracy either.

[Jim Sagle]

16. Exactly! Dean is a centrist - a REAL FDR/Truman centrist, unlike

the corporatist Jagoff Joe twins, Biden and Lieberman. They're FAKE centrists who always bash partisan Democrats. They're really Republicans. Dean sure as hell is not.

And I'm NOT saying there's anything wrong with being left of center. There's a LOT wrong with people on a Democratic board bashing a strong and EFFECTIVE Democratic spokesleader.

[madfloridian]

27. Yes, thank you.

Nothing wrong with being left, but bringing down an effective leader is another matter altogether. That is the issue here.

The attacks came right on time, right after a successful interview.

[radio4progressives]

103. Critising Dean - on a Major Policy position is NOT "bringing down"

an effective leader. please, you exagerate too much. really.

learn what is at issue - it's very similar to the Iraq war issues.

[IndianaGreen]

32. FDR had a good neighbor policy, not a Plan Colombia

We are speaking of the people of Latin America, not those that exploit them!

[Solon]

73. Also, FDR wasn't what would be considered a modern centrist....

hell, half his economic platform for the 1932 election was "borrowed" from the SPUSA(Socialists OMG!) after all.

[The Magistrate]

You Do Not Want To Enquire Too Closely Into That, My Hoosier Friend

"Somoza may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch."

[IndianaGreen]

12. Dean is attacking Chavez and Morales as not good for America

In effect, Dean is siding with the elites in Venezuela and Bolivia, and against the people that are opposed to being exploited by foreign corporations.

[Jim Sagle]

24. The MAIN THRUST of what Dean said was to blame Bush for any

problems we have in South America. That's what 99% of his viewers will take away from what they saw.

The granola-chewing other 1% will just have to tough it out. Howard Dean, or maybe Wes Clark, is about as far left as it's gonna get. Too bad, so sad.

Just when Leonard Mumia was getting ready for his comeback. ;-)

[KoKo]

34. That's what I thought...and I just posted about it below.

I'd be closer to the "granola chewers" here, but not entirely. I felt that he was slamming the Repugs back in their faces.

I think he's learned how to go at Blitzer the way the Repugs do. I am thankful that ONE DEM has learned how to counter them at their own game.

We constantly complain on this board about Biden and the rest of the "weenie" Dems.. One finally does a buzz saw job on Blitzer and now we have to PARSE! Give me a break!

But, I still think it's worth it to discuss it because when we "DON'T DISCUSS" we become like the brain dead Repug RW who can't discuss or bear ANY criticism of their "annointed ones." I'm glad to see this thread. Even though we who love Howard Dean will be defending him. :shrug:

[IndianaGreen]

37. Will you support a Pinochet-style coup in Venezuela, Boliva?

Even if the coup is carried out under a Democratic President? That's the real issue here!

[madfloridian]

40. How the hell did you get Pinochet coup from what he said today?

Good lord, IG.

[Solon]

72. Two things...

One is his equivelancy that Capitalism=Freedom, which it does not. Also, his insistence that, for some reason, South America is moving away from democracy. These two things are code for supporting "democratic" regimes that are violent and oppressive. To be honest, I don't know whether Dean himself would personally support such measures, but I would take his quote either being severely misinformed about South American Politics or that he would support policies that were similar to the ones we followed throughout the '60s through early '90s.

[RagingInMiami]

86. I think he's catering to the average dumbass American

Who thinks Chavez and Morales are evil communists and bad for America.

[High Plains]

140. And what's praiseworthy about that?

[radio4progressives]

104. You're wrong - It's NOT moving away from democracy, it's moving away from

Neo Liberal imposed policies that allowed for Multi National Corporatists takeover of resources. Run a muk Capitalism, which is completely antithetical to democracy.

edited for a bit more clarity

[Jim Sagle]

50. No. And that's NOT the real issue, because:

1) it wouldn't happen; and

2) Dean wouldn't favor it.

No, the real issue for Dems is to find and support leaders who crush Republican lies even when advanced by the whore media. Dean is such a leader and I therefore support him. YMMV.

[The Magistrate]

78. Well Said, Mr. Sagle!

We need people who can feed it back to them soaked in Tabasco....

[Capn Sunshine]

105. How did you get to this from

"He's ignored the economic plight of their folks. And so, we're getting something that I think most Americans wish we didn't have, which is left-leading regimes in these places."

So you object that Dean is pointing out that you ignore the economic plight of the lower classes at your peril?

Or do you object to his mentioning most Americans are bugged by leftist regimes in Latin America?

I know I object to you conducting your anti-Dean campaign based on conjecture, projection, hyperbole, and the behavior of the Bush administration.

If you think for one minute that Chavez wouldn't rather have Dean as President than a fascist, you are really twisted.

[madfloridian]

25. I am sorry that you read it that way.

I think you are taking what he said and pulling it to the extremes.

I think there is danger in that.

[karynnj]

31. You can be not for the leaders of Venezuela and Bolivia

(which is a far better view of where Dean and Kerry are) and still not be for the elites. Kerry's concern was that Chavez endorsed him - which as a foreign leader (esp a controversial one) - he shouldn't have done. There are things Chavez has done that are not good - so Kerry's team distanced itself.

Although I don't have a link to it, when the commerce committee was working on the CAFTA bill, Kerry spoke about how a recent study showed that the impact of NAFTA has been to hurt the poor in Mexico, rather than help as was thought when it was passed. He said that CAFTA was worse in its design and it got rid of the sole means to fight a violation of workers rights. Kerry spoke about how the Catholic bishops of Latin America (they are liberal), workers groups and environmental groups were against CAFTA. Kerry was wonderful and I doubt any liberal reading the words would not be impressed. When passage was assured, Kerry tried in committee to get an amendment to protect the workers , but it was stuck in committee (10-10 I think). Listening to this and knowing Kerry's work in the 80s against the Contras, he is NOT a supporter of the right wing ruling class.

[blm]

56. I think ALL the Dems are being fed BAD INTEL reVenezuela and the media is

helping by planting antiChavez "personal" stories all over the country. There was one today on the front page of the Local section in the Charlotte Observer.

That is how they operate. I am certain the intel being gathered about Venezuela is being trumped up and Dems don't have enough real info to trump it.

[KoKo]

69. blm....if any Dem holding office or in Party hierarchy today doesn't have

"info" not supplied by the Bushies Propaganda Machine...then they need to be thrown out of office. And that includes the "Top Brass" on down....

Hello? If we here are informed by reading interntational news media then they need to hire better staffers who can read what WE READ!

There's NO EXCUSE in this day for Congress Critters and Senate Superiors NOT to read INTERNATIONAL NEWS!

If our Dems are still relying on Bush FBI/CIA/NSA and the rest...they must be :crazy: Or they are doing this willfully because they are "embedded" with them! "Lie Down with Fleas ...Get Up With Them!

[radio4progressives]

107. well said Koko01... but it also looks like many of the "rank and file"

need to read up on what this is about in South America.

Personally, I'm giving Dean a "pass" on this issue at this juncture, first because he's not running for President.. (i don't think) and his job is to lead the party, ultimately it's the policies of the candidate that needs to be scrutinized and criticized or supported. So his position on South America is irrelevant to me at this juncture.

Secondly, I think he needed to say what he did (as i stated in previous post)to firmly establish where his "centrists" politics are - in other words to correct the misinformation that has been promulgated by the Repukes (and the DLC)....

But it's apparent that the Left needs to educate the rank and file on what the United States policies have been in South America for decades, mostly under Right Wing Imperialists like Ronald Reagan and the Poppy Bush regimes, but with a Neo Liberal backing, support and funding.

Perhaps articles, books and documentaries would be useful, it appears a lot of people are not informed of the history.

[IndianaGreen]

70. Americans knowlege of Latin America is limited to Cancun

and Northern Mexico. Most of our compatriots, including far too many Democrats, have no clue that US policies under Republican and Democratic administrations have done serious harm to people in Latin America. "Why do they hate us?" seems to be the only thing one hears from people that should know better.

Those of us that take issue with Dean on his recent comments on Latin America on the Blitzer show, were among those that opposed Reagan's wars in Central America, and want the shutdown of the torture/assassination school the US Army runs at Fort Benning.

[blm]

92. I'm with you on that completely - we also know that no accurate intel is

getting to the hill.

The Latin America branch of the intel community has no doubt been completely coopted by Bush loyalists. They were in place before Clinton took office.

[Douglas Carpenter]

97. may I ask?

I am concerned about those issues too. And I agree that traditionally Democrats have been only marginally better than Republicans and sometimes no better at all. Carter continued arming right-wing regimes but did not enthusiastically push the wholesale Latin American blood bath that came with Reagan. Perhaps is Carter had been reelected Nicaraguan democracy and independence might have actually survived. I suppose Clinton was just business as usual. But is there ANY candidate who could conceivably win the presidency who would actually have a progressive position regarding Latin America and the third world in general? If so I wonder who?

[radio4progressives]

108. Even Republican Shays Disagrees with Saber Rattling and Regime Change

talk from this administration. When Condi Rice was being confirmed for her post as Secretary of State, it was the Republican Senator who really grilled her on this issue - because dubya and Rice had been engaged in public demonization of Chavez, and of course let's not forget the failed CIA coup that took place in April of 2002 - it was apparent to me, THAT Republican GOT IT - I don't have the transcript at my finger tips - (betcha it's on C-Span archives) but if any Democratic party Presidential Candidate took a page from that Senator's remarks on that confirmation hearing - I'd be pleased, proud and relieved.

[radio4progressives]

106. Thank you I.G - and please see my posts, see if my analysis is flawed

or need to be corrected ... would like your feedback.

[wndycty]

9. Er uh he is human. . .

Howard Dean is not going to be on the right side of every issue and he will put his foot in his mouth on occassion, please put this in perspective. Its called a mistep. They happen all the time to good people. Lets not blow this shit out of proportion. I hope those who want to bash Dean will leave him alone on this one and I would like his supporters to acknowledge that he is human and he was wrong on this. This happens to everyone.

[NYCGirl]

10. I will acknowledge he's quite human.

Except I don't think he is wrong on this.

[wndycty]

13. An issue of perception. . .

. . .and I really don't have a dog in this fight as much as its a great opportunity to point out what I think is one of the most annoying things on DU. There are those who will take any opportunity to bash someone and there are those who think that any time someone points out someones problems/mistakes/faults that they are bashing them.

[madfloridian]

11. I think he meant it....in the context of the way it was said.

This is not a matter of Dean being right or wrong....it is matter of his not being "left."

It is a 3rd party thing. It will happen every time he speaks out.

I think it has nothing to do with not criticizing him. That is habit to say that. Long time habit.

It is just that so much good was said, that they had to be sure to get that out. Dean will never be left. Some will never vote Democrat.

[IndianaGreen]

18. NO!

We know how many innocent people have been murdered in Latin America as the result of US foreign policy, including policy by "well meaning" Democratic Presidents. There is no excuse for ignorance, and no excuse for siding with the elites!

[KoKo]

30. Indiana, I saw Dean live and didn't see or hear what the transcript says.

Reading the transcript it appears what he said could be interpreted as a slam on elections, I suppose.

Yet, in the context of the give in take (Blitzer's accusatory tone) I saw it more that Dean was really having to "talk over" Blitzer's attacks and stay on message and that one of the points in his head was "Latin America" and to take away the Repugs talking points by throwing Latin America back in their face. I didn't see it as about the "elections" but about ALL of Latin America and the failure of Bush to engage in dialog with anyone.

Here's "my" interpretation of what I heard and saw Dean say:

"George Bush instead of trying to bash Latin American Leaders he doesn't like into submission, should be reaching across the aisle and engaging him and that's exactly why he's such a failure."


See, I interepreted it very differently in the "context" of what was going on with the "Blitzer GRILLING."

The transcript would seem to convey that Dean was saying something more "sinister." :shrug: I will go with my interpretation on this, though.

[Kahuna]

51. I give him a pass on this one. While I had a brief WTF moment..

when he made this gaffe (?), he was so magnificent on the things that really matter to me, I give him a complete pass. Most viewers wouldn't even know what the issue is.

[IndianaGreen]

89. Unless one happens to be Latino or Latina

in which case whatever happens in Latin America does matter at a personal level.

Most viewers don't know what is meant by "US interests"!

What do we mean by US interests? If you mean the corporate interests, they are as opposed to the American workers as they are to having the "lower classes" win power in Latin America.

Ask yourselves that question, what do you mean by US interests, and on which side will you stand?

I will take the side of the workers and peasants of Latin America. I have always chosen that side, and it matters not to me whether the American President is a Democrat or a Republican, if that President uses military might to impose neolib policies on the people of Latin America, he must be opposed.

American history in Latin America is one of shame and murder!

[madfloridian]

14. Two birds with one stone, IG.

Both good Democrats. Why? Must pay visit to PI for info.

[IndianaGreen]

19. I will take the side of the workers and peasants of Latin America

over the corporatists in my own country that advocate American imperialism and hegemony.

Latin America is not America's whore!

[madfloridian]

23. Ok.

.

[eve_was_framed]

98. Hear, Hear. Thank you!!

[theoldman]

17. Yes, Dean makes an occasional mistake.

Compare him to Bush who makes nothing but mistakes. We are too critical on our own people. You do not see this happening on the Republican side.

[shance]

22. Agreed*

I think its important to be able to disagree and be able to work together at the same time.

I do not agree with this statement from Dean, however, I certainly agree with most of what he supports.

And, he's honest.

[madfloridian]

26. That is not the issue here, Shance.

You most surely know it is not the issue.

Dean's honesty is not in question.

He had a powerful interview today, and we knew this would happen. It is ok, but you must stop acting naive. You know what is going on.

[shance]

36. I think there are a few things happening.

I think I understand your point that perhaps someone posted this with less than honest intention for discussion, and its more to create some unproductive division by this thread?. Its possible.

However, to, discount these leaders, or to label them "left leaning", when they seem to be compassionate, caring leaders who are listening to their constituents, I say, the more the merrier. We need more leadership like that. That is what this world is hungry for - good leadership that invests in everyone and not solely those who can afford it.

As someone who is a Democrat as much as you are, and/or who continues to vote Democratic, I support Chavez and the Bolivian leader, and I think Democrats need to support and defend these individuals because they support everything we "say" we support.

So pundits here want to call them "left leaning"? Is anything they say valid or truthful anymore, especially about those who might interfere with the profit margins of the oil/defense industry? I would call these South American leaders common sense humanitarians and visionaries. Could I be wrong? Its possible. Time will tell, and hopefully so will the truth.

I believe these leaders are trying to counter the extreme imbalance this side of the world is teetering on at everyone's and every creatures potential demise.

[madfloridian]

38. Many of us did not read it that way at all.

But that is up to you. I see this is posted about 3 other places.
That is her right.

It is your right. It is my right to call BS when I smell it.

I did not read it as Dean being the hated corporatist. It did not come across that way. There are discussions at other forums where a lot of people never took it that way.

Yes, it is organized.

[shance]

61. When I mentioned 'pundits', I meant exactly that, those in the media

and in the corporate world who promote and propel more war and destruction.

Dean is certainly no corporatist. He's common sense, and he's more conservative than I am. But he's a top notch leader, one of the best this country I believe has seen, certainly in my lifetime.

I still disagree with the point he made. I believe the leaders in both Bolivia and Venezuela are more of what people need and the people in these countries seem pleased and hopeful with the results. Who are we to tell them what they need?

I would say their record so far shows what their doing is working, I don't care if you call it "left-leaning" or basket weaving.

It seems it is a more fair, balanced "democratic" way of governing, and that these leaders are actually trying to do the right thing and invest in their citizens as a whole. Seems as well they are trying to right some of the more extremist policies that have been implemented. Seems to me they are promoting more balance and fairness. How can that be wrong?

[pberq]

95. Good post.

I am a supporter of Howard Dean. However, I disagree with him on this point.

To say that Chavez and the new Bolivian president are working against American interests is wrong. - Unless you are talking about the bottom lines of predator multinational corporations.

[TheGunslinger]

21. The only way I see Dean put his foot in his mouth was talking about....

spreading capitalism.

[Peace Patriot]

28. "Left-leading" regimes is something "most Americans" don't want?

"And so, we're getting something that I think most Americans wish we didn't have, which is left-leading regimes in these places." --Howard Dean

I don't see why this has to be a pro-Dean/anti-Dean argument, or an excuse to try to drive the real representatives of the majority of Americans--the Left--out of the Democratic Party, so the corporatists can take over.

Dean is plainly wrong about South America--where virtually the entire map of the subcontinent has gone "blue" over the last several years, with leftist governments getting elected, often by big majorities, in Brazil, Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Venezuela, and most recently in Bolivia. Hard to figure why this would be unwelcome to a Democrat, unless we're talking about a DLC/NAFTA/GATT Democrat, which I don't think Dean is. I think he is misinformed, and perhaps trying to mend some fences with the DLCers and the Clinton faction. To me, it's kind of like, oh, Democrats, back in the 70's, criticizing Nixon for not nuking Vietnam. (They didn't say that, but if they had...). What does Dean want? More death squads in South America? He wants to find a way to DENY the GREAT MAJORITY of South Americans what they REALLY WANT, which is LEFTIST governments that represent the South American MAJORITY, at long last, and are seeing to the BEST INTERESTS of South American countries, peacefully and democratically?

They are having honest elections in South America--highly monitored by the OAS, EU groups and the Carter Center. We don't have them here. What does Dean want--Diebold and ES&S in South America, with their 'TRADE SECRET," PROPRIETARY programming code in their election theft machines, like we have here, with virtually no audit/recount capability, controlled by Bushite corporations?

That would surely get people "elected" in South America who were seeing to the interests of United States CEOs and war profiteers.

And this is the oddest meaning of Dean's statements: If Dean doesn't want "leftist" regimes in South America, one can only presume that he doesn't want one here either. Even if that's what the people want, and vote for. Even if that's the reason that most Democrats belong to the Democratic Party--because we are LEFTISTS! --and the Democratic Party is supposed to be taking care of what Leftists ALWAYS take care of: the workers, labor rights, the poor, the elderly, the young, those without medical care, small business, the environment, minorities, and social progress.

What's happening in South America is a democratic revolution--the coming to power, at long last, of South America's huge, poor, indigenous population, traditionally excluded from all benefits of government, who are peacefully--and, from what I can see, joyously--transforming that continent into a continent of FREE PEOPLE.

And Dean is against this? And thinks "most Americans" are against it? Why? What is there to criticize in these "leftist" governments? I can see NOTHING to criticize, and much to praise.

So, Howard, go to www.venezuelanalysis.com, and do a bit of reading, okay? Get informed!

---------------

Note: Lifelong Democrat here, 40 years of voting for Democrats, contributing and volunteering; Dean supporter in 2004.

[tishaLA]

52. bingo

It doesn't *matter* what Americans want for South and Central American democracies: it matters what South and Central Americans want from their democracies.

[bullimiami]

29. right and wrong. dr dean.

bush, while paying lip service to democracy and freedom but destroying it everywhere is helping drive south america toward it.

bush has been high handed with south america but, because they wont play his imperialist game, they have spurned him.


why are american pols so scared to say when someone else has it right but our theocratocracy has it wrong?
we need to move toward SA not they toward us.

[madfloridian]

33. The momentum is stopped. Congrats.

It was a feel good moment for a lot of people watching Dean stand up for Democrats today.

I interpreted what Dean said to be sympathy for the people of those countries because Bush had turned his back. There was also a feeling that we would benefit from being decent. Which we would. I saw it has him blaming Bush for antagonizing.

I did not see all the stuff you folks are reading into it. But I have been accused of simplistic thinking, so of course I would read it that way.

Good job. Momentum stopped.

[KoKo]

39. I disagree that you feel the "momentum" is stopped. If we don't discuss

then we become like "THEM." The transcript did appear to be different from what I heard and saw ...so others have real questions.

I love Dean and feel I know what he was doing (have posted twice here} on what "I" thought he meant being "grilled" in fascist form by Blitzer but there are those who do think what he said alarmed them. They are not Dean supporters but,perhaps legit questioners? Others may be Clark supporters...I didn't see trolls but maybe some turned up while I was posting.

Dean was GREAT...Any average person watching him will see the STRENGTH THERE... I wouldn't get worked up over this. I'm still savoring every moment he spoke myself...thinking of the cowering Blitzer who must be getting beat with the rubber hoses by his CNN Corporate whores over why he let Dean get the best of him. :D

[madfloridian]

41. This is not about Dean. It is about stopping momentum.

Please read what I am saying. Taking the wind out. People need to feel some unity, some passion.

IG is comparing what Dean said to organizing a coup. Come on. Get real.

You can not get unity when people keep this up. Keep an eye out, see what I mean.

Dean is only a small part of this issue. I don't like the patronizing tone many use when they think it is about just one man.

This is about stopping even sensible rebuilding of the Democrats.

[madfloridian]

42. It is about Kerry and other Democrats as well.

It is about common sense and overkill.

[KoKo]

65. Well...I understand what you say at least about : "Common Sense and

Overkill." Just look at the posts on this thread..:shrug:

[ellenfl]

48. i agree with you. bush has pushed south and latin american

countries away. by left-leaning, i think dean means more communist. what good does it do the usa for our neighbors to align with castro? bush's arrogance and hubris have turned most of the world against us . . . and now he has included south america in the coterie of former friends. what friends do we have left? oh, sorry 'remaining'.

ellen fl

[High Plains]

119. Relax, o Mad Floridian

Yes, Dean was pretty effective. And yes, for many of us, his comments on Latin America hit a sour note. We don't expect Howard Dean to change into Che Guevara, but we do hope he would not embrace conservative talking points about Latin America. And we'll call him on it.

And I wouldn't worry too much about the momentum, either. I mean, c'mon: A few people posting on one thread on one board has stopped Dean in his tracks? Puh-leeze.

[KoKo]

43. Hey! Who isn't thankful we didn't see Lieberman/Dodd/Biden on Blitz

today.... You think THEIR VIEWS are more in keeping with the Left of the Party?

Just chiding.......:D

[gratuitous]

44. No! IG is absolutely right

By all means, let us make the perfect the mortal, sworn enemy of the good. And did you see the rest of Dean's blather with Blitzer? You can read the transcript at Eschaton: http://atrios.blogspot.com/

My paraphrase:

WOLF: Let's talk about Iraq. Wasn't Bush presidential this week, listening to all those Clinton-era retreads?

DEAN: That was a cheap photo op, and you know it.

WOLF: Well, what about Joe Lieberman? {Plays clip of Lieberman giving Bush head}

DEAN: Lieberman's a toady. Bush is so illegitimate his kids are bastards.

WOLF: What about all the Democrats who took money from Jack Abramoff? Should they be executed immediately, or is a simple tar-and-feathering enough?

DEAN: NO Democrat took a dime from Abramoff. Why aren't you asking me about all the Republicans?

WOLF: But, but, but, money . . . tribes. You know.

DEAN: Nonsense. Do a little homework, you fat, overpaid blob of sycophant.

WOLF: {Sigh} Okay, get out of here if you're not going to play the game right.

[incapsulated]

46. lol!

I like your transcript better. :D

[LizW]

49. Bwahahaha!

I hate to kick this thread, but that is FUNNY!

:rofl:

[KoKo]

66. I don't believe that ANYONE is "absolutely right" on any subject.........

but the "differences and nuances" should always be out there for "discussion" and NOT FLAME THROWING!!! :-(

SHAME ON YOU GUYS...going after HONEST CREDENTIALED FELLOW DU'ERS, LAUGHING :rofl: and MAKING FUN :rofl: of them.

This is ridiculous... We are ALL IN THIS TOGETHER! SHAME. :-(

[Douglas Carpenter]

94. is there a link for that on video?

that's good

[incapsulated]

45. I agree and disagree

First, I'm no Chavez fan, he reminds me of Castro when he seduced the left, I don't trust him. And I think Dean makes a good point that Bush has so alienated other countries, in Latin America and elsewhere, that just being on his enemies list is going to help even the worst scoundrel who tries to take office.

On the other hand, I disagree that it is good to encourage "capitalism" and "democracy", american-style, down there, since we all know the history of what that really means. The ordinary people are screwed and the worst scum on earth have been supported just so the rich "capitalists" can line their pockets and call it "democracy".



Meh. :shrug:

[KoKo]

47. The Heinz Fortune might have more to do with Kerry and Latin America

than Dean's appearance to some of "foot in mouth" disease, though.

I see Kerry as much more "establishment Dem" where there might be the need by some interests to be FIGHTING the Latin Americans and destabilizing their governments for our American Corporate interests than I see Howard and his wife getting "off" on exploitation of Latin America and how the folks there are voting for representatives who represent their "social aspirations."

Just my 2 cents on difference between Dean and Kerry. :shrug:

[fedupinBushcountry]

53. ROFLMAO

:rofl:

You know statements like yours are so ridiculous. My God how far will you go to spread complete crap. :banghead:

[karynnj]

60. I have seen nothing that Teresa OR John Kerry

have done that justifies this comment. In paticular, the fortune is NOT Kerry's. Kerry could easily have used the connections he was born with to become wealthy - he chose not to. His positions, like the Kennedy's are definitely not to benefit their "class".

Incidentally, Dean grew up on Park Avenue in NYC in a far wealthier family than the Kerrys.

[wyldwolf]

54. more words of wisdom from Pendejo, the Revolutionary!

[newblewtoo]

59. So true...

El Vaquero (The Mexican Cowboy) and his Chihuahua, Chilito, are camping in the desert. He sets up their tent and both are soon asleep.

Some hours later, El Vaquero wakes his faithful friend. "Chilito, look up at the sky and tell me what you see." Chilito replies, "I see millions of stars, senor." "What does that tell you?" asks El Vaquero.

Chilito ponders for a minute. "Astronomically speaking, it tells me there are millions of galaxies and potentially millions of planets. Astrologically, it tells me that Saturn is in Leo. Chronologically, it appears to be approximately quarter past three. Theologically, it's evident the Lord is all-powerful, and we are small and insignificant. Meteorologically, it seems we will have a beautiful day tomorrow. What does it tell you, senor?"

El Vaquero is silent for a moment, and then says, "Chilito, you pendejo. Someone has stolen our tent."

[IndianaGreen]

80. Thank you for the racist joke!

Gays and Latinos are still fair game even among those that call themselves "liberal."

[Cha]

58. I just saw "Good Night And Good Luck"..

makes me want to join the communist party just to piss off the ghost of joe mccarthy.


Thanks, Indiana Green for this post..I just wrote Governor Dean and thanked him for his definitive stance with blizter.. on the Dems not being involved in the abramoff scandal and told him also what I thought of Chavez And Morales and how they were for their People just like he is.

Tell Dean what you think..

http://www.dnc.org/page/petition/chairman

[KoKo]

67. Good for You...and I'm going to do the same thing. A CHEER FOR DEAN

for standing up to the DAMNED BLITZER.

I don't see many posts here carrying on when Lieberman or Biden or the rest SELL OUT DEMS on the TALKING WHORE SHOWS on Sunday Morning!

Always it's "pile on" against Dean...over and over. I think DISCUSSION about what Dean says is good...but this thread is getting OTT...and so we need to send DNC HEAD DEAN...a BIG THANK YOU...and give him a GOLD STAR for BEST PERFORMANCE BY A DEMOCRAT EVER...on a Whore Cable Show!!!!

:-)'s ....Well SAID, Zidzi and thanks for that CALL TO ACTION TO SUPPORT HOWARD DEAN!!!! WHO SPOKE UP FOR US!!!!! When others are wearing weenie bikini's!

[Cocoa]

63. that wasn't a gaffe, that was his position

Like it or not, and I don't and I know you don't, Dean meant to say what he said.

I still love Dean.

[PassingFair]

68. I agree, Coca, Dean is NOT wrong.

South America is standing up to the oil cartels.
Right NOW, the oil cartels = the US.

I am happy to see South America telling Bushco to shove it.

But I would be HAPPIER if South America wasn't antagonistic towards us.

Hopefully, diplomatic ties can be rejoined when we get chimpy and the other simians OUT.

[Solon]

71. If South America wasn't antagonistic, they would be repressed instead.

Does anyone really think that it matters to some Bolivian that we have a Democrat or Republican in office? Seriously, the only thing, I could think of, that would cross the mind of a Chilean when it comes to the United States Government would be what we did to their still missing friends and family. Really, what the fuck has the United States done in the past century to warrant even a passing compliment from anyone south of the Rio Grande?

[Cha]

74. Latin Ameria should be looking out

for themselves and taking a lesson from Iraq..what can happen to a country that has oil that the USA oil men covet.

[Solon]

75. And that is exactly what they are doing...

Yet Dean, and many in the Democratic leadership actually view that as a bad thing, even if they blame it on Bush. It is one thing to actually critisize Bush on alienating the new left leaning governments of Latin America in a diplomatic sense. It is quite another to blame Bush on failing to influence these elections in a US-friendly(READ: Fascist) way. Latin America has, traditionally, been fighting American Hegemony since the Monroe Doctrine was put into practice. For the longest time, if some government was elected in Latin America and they acted in a way that did not put US's interests first, one of two things happened. The first was invasion, this happened quite a bit during and after the Spanish American War. The second was more popular with our government after WW1 all the way up to today, that was and is, a systemic policy of intereference in the elections of left leaning and populist govenments. This happened either as outright coups(Pinochet), or giving arms and money to Fascist groups, some lead by Nazis, literally.

Besides which, many of those elected into these governments are NOT only using Bush as a trump card, they have both the FTAA and their own internal problems that elevate them to winning elections. Chavez was elected, first, in 1998 after all. I doubt that President Bush was high on his list of concerns then.

[madfloridian]

76. I don't think Dean views that as a "bad thing."

I just don't get the same thing others are getting from this. I think it would be far better for us to be the recipient of Chavez oil than China. If Bush were not such a fool, it could have been that way maybe.

Dean said we had been contempuous of their plight, ignored their concerns, and I just did not take it the way some did. I took it that he cared.

Why wouldn't a US politician want those countries favorable to us? That would be a normal reaction. But then I sometimes not thought to be quite normal.

[Solon]

79. When a US politician wishes for some nation's government...

in Latin America to be more favorable to us, usually within a year or so, that government is overthrown in a coup, 50 thousand people are dead in a month, and all of the sudden, investment within that country, by US corporations, goes through the roof. Excuse me for being skeptical.

Look, the biggest concerns for the people that elected these new leaders of Latin America do NOT involve the United States except for when it is unwelcome. When our government pushes for the FTAA, something even we USians, by and large, don't want as workers then it should be expected that these governments will oppose ours on the treaty. They have large, almost insermountable, problems at home, and don't really dwell on us unless we insert ourselves into their politics like Venezuela in 2002. All they want is to be left alone to reorganize and rebuild their own nations, why the hell should we interfere at all?

Think about this, while Bush and Chavez, as an example, have had a war of words for a long time now, only Bush is seen, internationally, as the agressor in this. Chavez, in contrast, has gone out of his way in trying to circumvent our national government, and trying to appeal to the people of our country directly, to secure his own nation. Seriously, just as Canada would be almost impossible for us to declare war on, due to its popularity by the country at large, the same is trying to be done for Venezuela by Chavez. I view this as very smart, for given Bush's super aggressive stance on countries that aren't viewed as friendly to us by the State Department, it is probably best to not even try to be diplomatic to him at all.

You should really listen to the people of Latin America when they talk about Bush and the United States in general. It isn't just one national leader or two in those many nations that are "trying" to be diplomatic. Many in Latin America, the local leaders, activists, people on the street, etc. actually view the United States as a Fascist government that is not supported by USians themselves. They view us as being just as oppressed, particularly the poor and minorities, but all of us that aren't the rich elite in this country, they actually view as as being on the same level, so to speak, as themselves. They pity us that we can't have a government that we deserve. Think about that.

[madfloridian]

81. I would rather the governments be friendly to us rather than China.

I do not see that as wanting to overthrow them. I do not see that as Dean advocating a Pinochet like coup.

I think you guys are really taking what he said to the extreme.

[Solon]

82. First, all we are saying is that historically...

our neighbors to the south have reason to be wary of any politician here who talks about their internal politics in any capacity. Besides which, I don't see Chavez signing a deal with China for oil as being a threat to the United States, he wants to make sure that his nation is not beholden to a traditionally unfriendly nation. This has little to do with Bush personally, and more to do with how our government responds to illusionary threats from Latin America.

[IndianaGreen]

90. What do you mean by "friendly to us"?

The Cuban people are friendly to us, the American people, but US policy towards Cuba has been one of aggression and terrorism. The same can be said for the rest of Latin America, their peoples are friendly to the American people, but US policy in the region has been one of supporting rightwing dictatorships and training death squads at Fort Benning.

When you say that you would rather their governments be friendly to us, which echoes what American governments have said historically, what you are really saying is that you want governments friendly to US corporations. That's not friendship, that colonialism!

[madfloridian]

100. You have taken a few words and turned them into Pinochet Coup...

dictatorships and death squads. That is just like posting a flat out lie.

You are making up stuff by projecting way beyond anything he said or meant. He opposed this war in Iraq because of its imperialistic nature, and he said it would be hard to get out.

I can not communicate with you because you take two words from the powerful interview of Dean yesterday and project them into dictatorship, death squads and Pinochet like coup.

How can I answer you when you start from a premise that is just wrong.

[janx]

117. Really?

:rofl:

[Cha]

77. That's why I wrote to Dean

and told him what I thought ..that it wasn't a "bad thing".

In 1998 bush wasn't a high concern for anybody except the poor people of Texas who saw what skullduggery he was up to there.

2006..bush is the face of problems all around the world.

[Rainscents]

83. The way I see it (I am a very simple minded person) about Dean's statement

He is saying, Bush had oppertunity to reach out to S. America and he fucking blew it!!! This is the way I read it and Dean was 100% right on this!!!

[madfloridian]

87. Color me simple as well, but that was my first response.

I just did not see it the same way as some here. Bush screwed them, when he could have worked with them to the benefit of all. Now some are carrying Dean's statement to mean he advocates something like the Pinochet coup stuff, and I think that is too much.

[eve_was_framed]

99. you both saw Dean's statement in the same way I did.

[Armstead]

93. Dean was wrong, but still he's better than most Dems on most issues

I agree that he shouldn't have said that. It jarred me in what was otherwise a great interview. I wish someone would Dean an intensive lession in the Sins of Globalization 101.

I also wish that the Democratic Party would unshackle itself from the Corporate Conservative line on these issues, and stop seeing "leftist" Latin American politicians with the old line anti-Commie filter. That is a fatal flaw of the Democratic Party.

However, the whole mountain is really bug, and within the constraints of the conventional wisdom, I still give Dean a lot of points for doing his part to push the monolith in a better direction.

[oneoftheboys]

101. In the minds of most Democrats...

he hasn't put his foot in his mouth.

He is just calling it like it is. Authoritarian, left-leaning regimes are just as bad as authoritarian, right-leaning regimes.

[LittleClarkie]

110. Why do you say his foot is in his mouth? Because he disagrees with you?

He's a Centrist. As such, he's not going to be jumping up and down over a left-leaning regime.

I'm sure both he and Kerry have reasons for believing as they do about Venezuela. Whatever it is, it's not "parrotting" and it's not "foot in mouth disease" That would imply quite a bit of thoughtlessness. Neither man strikes me as thoughtless.

[IndianaGreen]

112. He disapproved of the choices made by millions of Latin American voters

So much for supporting democracy! What democracy do you support? The one that give you results that are approved by Wall Street, because that's the only kind of "democracy" many of those nations have experienced. They have tasted capitalism, and they have suffered under it, while you Americans have been enjoying your cheap gas and hedonistic lifestyle, all on the backs of the people that you exploit. No more!

[LittleClarkie]

113. "You Americans"?

Which Indiana are you from?

Disapproving of a choice, and disapproving of them even having a choice, are two different things. I can imagine there are people who have disapproved of our choices of president over the years. Reagan for one. Does that mean that those doing the disapproving were hated democracy?

No, they are two different things. You can suppose someone's right to make a choice, but then disapproved of the choice. It's not like he's calling for the man to be overthrown.

[IndianaGreen]

114. It's called "going native"

I have chosen my side, that of the poor and oppressed. You choose yours.

[LittleClarkie]

116. I hope for your sake, and theirs, that Chavez is not the blowhard that

some say he is, and that he isn't more talk than action.

[Jax]

124. Who is saying he is a blowhard?

[LittleClarkie]

126. Here are a few links so far

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/04/13/ED69251.DTL

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1471

http://www.mimsintl.com/uploads/240.htm

Plus I was just reading a few Wikipedia articles on him. The Carter Center approved the 1998 election of Chavez, but not the 2000 election due to a lack of transparency and an unconstitutionally early election.

Hopefully he is indeed good for his people.

But I still say that disapproving of the man has nothing to do with recognizing that he has been elected democratically.

[madfloridian]

132. IG, he used the words "left-leading" or left-leaning." Stop exaggerating

He was blasting Bush for antagonizing countries who could be friends to us.

You are stretching things here.

[AX10]

122. What's this all about Howard?

"He's ignored the economic plight of their folks. And so, we're getting something that I think most Americans wish we didn't have, which is left-leading regimes in these places.?

Howard better explain himself. Like it or not, these "regimes" were ELECTED.

[LittleClarkie]

123. So was Reagan, but I bet there were a few countries who wished

we didn't have him at the time.

Being democratically elected and being thrilled with the choice are two different things.

Btw, he's a Centrist. Always has been. No surprise here.

[madfloridian]

125. Maybe NED needs to explain as well. Many Dems part of it.

Ok, let's spread the love around, and let's see how many Dems have halos. Maybe we need to do that more.


http://www.ned.org/about/who.html

NED is thought to be meddling in Venezuela.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1169

Let's call out all our Democrats and make sure they are all pure leftist ideologues. You think?

[AX10]

127. I'm most certainly no "pure leftist".

I have many centerist views.

[tishaLA]

128. "thought to be"?

That link is pretty threadbare in its evidence, I think any reasonable observer would admit. A million dollars, including money for the NED website, was directed toward Venezuela, out of a budget of $40M. Of that million, 53K went to Sumate, which says it oversees the collection of signatures. As Gertrude Stein said of Oakland, "There's no there there."

[IndianaGreen]

129. No self-respecting Democrat should be part of NED

NED advocates the imposition of neolib regimes and policies in Latin America. Our language has been so much subverted that when we hear words such as "freedom" and "democracy" it really means slavery and exploitation.

[madfloridian]

131. Agree about NED I have tried to tell you we know what our country does.

But the difference is that many of us who have followed Dean's campaign just do not agree that he is advocating replacing anyone. I think you have been over reacting to what he said.

He has spoken out about empire building, it is not something he advocates.

I don't not think you sized up the remark properly, I think you missed that he was blasting Bush for turning all those leaders against us.

Kucinich, in my search today, appears to be the only congress person who openly supports Chavez. I do not disapprove of Chavez, and I think we should leave him alone. But Dean was saying Bush was arrogant to them. It hurt them and us. He believes in diplomacy. He went to Palestine as well as Israel in September. He sees practical solutions, what is best for the country. He is not a neocon, and you have practically made him into one.

[Dr Fate]

130. I like Dean's take- Bush has no idea how to work with other countries.

n/t

[madfloridian]

133. That is right. It is what he was saying.

And they are left-leaning leaders, nothing wrong with that. But Venezuela's oil will be going to China instead of us.... not good.

[janx]

141. Yeah. Bush made a lot of promises to work with those countries,

when he first took office. They wanted ties and diplomacy.

Then he thumbed his nose at all of them.

[eridani]

134. It was fine except for two sentences--

When you turn people off, as the most powerful nation in the world, they are obviously going to do something that is not in our best interest. And that's exactly what's going on right now.

Whatchu mean WE, white boy? Chavez being in power is very, very much in the interests in of some of "us" in Massachusetts and NY who are getting cheaper heating oil this winter.

[madfloridian]

135. "white boy"....a little racist there, you think?

Oh, how do you feel about China's deal with Chavez to get the oil....wouldn't you rather we had worked with him instead of threatening?

Some people scare me when they talk about "white boys" in such an ugly way, that is racist.

Some people scare me when they side with another country over ours.

Some people worry me to death when they demand utter toeing the line to the far left or they try to harm.

"white boy?" You stun me.

[madfloridian]

136. Aren't you being self-serving yourself?

All the fancy schmancy talk in this thread about purity. Then you call Dean a "white boy" and you are thankful for the good things Chavez is doing for you.

[eridani]

139. That was a famous "Tontoism" way back when--

--the beginning of quite a few Lone Ranger/Tonto jokes. I guess I shouldn't have assumed universal familiarity with it. Sorry. However, the point remains that the poor people of color getting discounted fuel oil happen to be Americans. Therefore "American" interests are being served by current Chavez policy.

Furthermore, if we want oil or natural gas from Venezuela or Bolivia, all we have to do is outbid the Chinese for it.

[sirjohn]

137. It disturbs me that Dean so openly advocates capitalism

"Democracy" is exactly what Chavez calls his form of government.

[madfloridian]

138. We call ours a democracy, too, but it isn't.

There is nothing wrong with regulated sensible capitalism.