Ive searched, but cannot find any info. Did Dorgan take money from Smith?

[nickshepDEM]

Michael Smith

Im asking because, if true, it hurts our... No democrats have ever taken any money from Abramoff or any of his associates - talking point... And well, that would suck.

[LynnTheDem]

1. Smith is not Abramoff.

ANYONE can donate to ANY party.

ABRAMOFF used those donations ILLEGALLY.

AP omitted Dorgan's response to alleged Abramoff link
http://mediamatters.org/items/200511300016

[nickshepDEM]

2. Do you have a link? I dont mean to give you a hard time, but...

Im looking for proof here, so I can rebut a claim.

[LynnTheDem]

7. Sure; can look up more if needed

http://mediamatters.org/items/200511300016

[nickshepDEM]

11. Thanks!

[LynnTheDem]

Sen. Dorgan's own statement

"This is another story that uses innuendo and a thin tissue of disconnected facts in an attempt to connect me to the Abramoff scandal that Senator John McCain and I have been investigating.

"The fact is I have never met Abramoff and have never received a campaign contribution from him. If he was directing any of his clients to make a political contribution to me, it was done without my knowledge.

"I serve on two Senate committees that deal with Indian issues and I have for many years worked hard to help Indians deal with the crisis in education, health care and housing. I have also been proud to have received support from individual Indians and Indian tribes in my reelection campaign.

"The story reports that the Choctaw Indian tribe did a fundraiser for me in a skybox in 2001 that the reporter claims was owned by Abramoff.

"The facts are, two Democrats from the Greenberg Traurig firm arranged the fundraiser and told my campaign it was a skybox owned by the Choctaw Indians. And that is the way we reported it on the Federal Election Campaign report. The fundraiser was perfectly legal and the Choctaw tribe has contributed to my campaign dating back to 1997.

Indians have a right to fully participate in our democracy – to vote, to contribute to campaigns, and to meet with members of the Congress."

http://dorgan.senate.gov/newsroom/record.cfm?id=249445

But apparently the rightwingnuttery believes Indians DO NOT have such rights.

[LynnTheDem]

21. Bottom line; Indians are legally entitled to donate funds to anyone

they want; Dems and/or Repubs. It was NOT ILLEGAL for Indian tribes (aka "Abramoff-related clients/associates") to donate funds to Dems...and/or to Repubs...and/or to Santa Claus if they felt like it.

What's illegal is what ABRAMOFF DID to get donations (fraud) and what he did WITH those donations (influence-peddling).

IT DOES NOT MATTER if an Indian tribe gave money to Abramoff AND to Dems (and to Repubs and to Santa Claus).

What matters is the FRAUD Abramoff used to acquire those funds, and the INFLUENCE-PEDDLING by Abramoff with those funds...and Abramoff NEVER gave any Dem or Dem organization a single penny. Which is what Dean said. Dean is correct.

Indians, being human beings and Americans, thus fully covered by American law, are allowed to donate to anyone they want, even to *gasp* Dems. Rightwingnuts apparently disagree.

[MercutioATC]

24. It's also the "bottom line" that at least one Dem DID use Abramoff's box.

There might have been no wrongdoing, but it happened, and that fact has been confirmed by the Democrat in question.

[LynnTheDem]

25. The fact is, the CHOCTAW rent that box and have for years.

The fact is, the CHOCTAW tribe used that box for the 2 fundraisers.

The fact is, ABRAMOFF is under indictment because he used FRAUD to acquire funds and he used those funds, paid to certain Republicans, for influence-peddling.

Dems holding fundraisers in Choctaw-rented skyboxes, regardless who owns the box, is irrelevant.


But hey, whatever.

[MercutioATC]

3. Money from Smith was taken by at least one other Dem.

[nickshepDEM]

4. So basically our talking point is moot?

Dean said on Blitzer today that no democrat has ever taken money from Abramoff or any of his associates. If dem's took money from Smith, well, that claim is false, right?

[LynnTheDem]

5. NO Dem has ever taken one penny from Abramoff.

And it would have been FINE and LEGAL and PROPER if they had.

ANYONE can donate to ANY PARTY.

It's what Abramoff did to get donations & what he did with those donations that was illegal and he never gave one bloody penny to ANY Dem...EVER.

Dean was correct.

[MercutioATC]

6. You're correct. Dems DID get money from a member of "Team Abramoff".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2350299

I've said this about a million times now, but this is NOT proof of any wrongdoing by Senator Harkin.

However, he did (according to USA Today) accept money from Michael Smith.

[LynnTheDem]

12. NO they did not.

Dorgan received donations from a Native American tribe. A tribe who also donated/were scammed to/by Abramoff.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200511300016

[MercutioATC]

14. Did you not read the link or are you stating that USA Today lied?

"Harkin twice used Abramoff's skybox for fundraisers — once in 2002 and again in 2003 — without reimbursing. He also collected $17,000 from Smith and other Abramoff-related sources in 2003. The Sac & Fox gave $4,000 more to Harkin in 2004, about six months after the federal government allowed the tribe's casino to reopen."

And, once again, the link. http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-12-03-harkin-letters_x.htm Has my grasp of the English language abandoned me or does that say "He also collected $17,000 from Smith and other Abramoff-related sources in 2003."?

[LynnTheDem]

15. Oy. Better watch out if I ever get arrested...

After all, YOU are "LTD-related", as we're both DUers. :rofl:

Who rented that box for years from Abramoff? The Choctaw and Agua Caliente Band.

Who held the box for the fundraisers? The Choctaw.

Who did Harkin reimburse? The Choctaw. Of course. They paid for the box.

Who did he receive donations from? Indian tribes.

Who did he never receive a penny from? Abramoff.

"Abramoff-related sources", jeebus fucking cripes. The m$m is going all-out trying to spin this one.

[MercutioATC]

17. I'm not claiming they're guilty. I'm saying that, officially, and

without their knowledge if their explanations are accurate, they DID receive those contributions. Therefore, a statement that they didn't is factually false.

[LynnTheDem]

18. They did NOT receive a penny from Abramoff, which is IIRC what Dean said.

And no they did not receive any donations from Smith.

They received (and had done for years) donations from various Indian tribes. NOT Abramoff; NOT Smith.

[MercutioATC]

19. It's a semantics game.

Did Harkin receive money from Abramoff? No. He received the free use of a skybox in 2002 and 2003.

THAT'S the fact and Harkin doesn't deny it.




As an explanation, Harkin states that:

1) He didn't know that the box was Abramoff's, and

2) He discovered the fact that no payment was made for the box two years later (in October 2005) and made a payment.


That explanation may very well be true. Harkin may not have done ANYTHING wrong (and personally, I don't think he did). However, it's clear that Harkin (a Democrat) DID receive something of value from Abramoff. If a Republican did the EXACT same thing, most people here would call for an investigation.

[LynnTheDem]

22. A box paid for by the Choctaw Indians.

Legal.

And he reimbursed the Choctaw.

He did NOT receive anything from Abramoff; he rec'd value paid for by the Indian tribe who'd rented that skybox for years.

[MercutioATC]

23. Well...

"Although the name on the outside of the skybox said “Jack Abramoff,”"

http://www.hillnews.com/thehill/export/TheHill/News/Frontpage/102005/news3.html


Seems to indicate pretty clearly that it was Abramoff's box, regardless of who paid the bills.

[LynnTheDem]

26. It is IRRELEVANT who owns the box.

ABRAMOFF is under indictment because he used FRAUD to obtain funds, and then used those funds to pay Republicans for influence-peddling.

It does not matter who owns the box the Choctaw tribe rent.

Just as it does not matter who owns my office; I can hold fundraisers at my office for anyone I want. And if the owner of my office building is then indicted for fraud and I/P. that has nothing whatsoever to do with me or any Dems who attended my fundtraisers at my rented office. Even if "Building Owned by Republican Fraudster Soon to be Convicted" is written in stone across the front door of my office building.

Enough. Have a fab evening. :)

[LynnTheDem]

9. NO.

Dorgan received donations from Native American tribes. These tribes also donated to Abramoff (and Republicans and who knows who else).

They're LEGALLY ALLOWED to donate to any & as many political parties as they wish.

ABRAMOFF acquired those donations illegally and he used those donations illegally...but NOT ONE DEM EVER received one single penny from Abramoff.

[Cocoa]

8. you tell us

I'm sick of these "innocent" questions.

A million people have asked these questions, and none of them has provided any info.

Please you tell us, what did Harry Reid do, is he being investigated, is he implicated? Tell us.

[nickshepDEM]

10. Who cares what your sick of? Its not your forum.

I posted a legitmate question, which I happend to believe could arise as a liability in the future.

[Cocoa]

13. how so?

how would a donation from Smith be a liability?

[LynnTheDem]

16. Smith didn't donate.

Various Indian tribes donated. Smith was their rep.

[nickshepDEM]

20. Thanks again. Thats all I need to know.

:)

[LynnTheDem]

27. What Howard Dean actually said;

BLITZER: Should Democrats who took money from Jack Abramoff, who has now pleaded guilty to bribery charges, among other charges, a Republican lobbyist in Washington, should the Democrat who took money from him give that money to charity or give it back?

DEAN: There are no Democrats who took money from Jack Abramoff, not one, not one single Democrat. Every person named in this scandal is a Republican. Every person under investigation is a Republican. Every person indicted is a Republican. This is a Republican finance scandal. There is no evidence that Jack Abramoff ever gave any Democrat any money. And we've looked through all of those FEC reports to make sure that's true.

BLITZER: But through various Abramoff-related organizations and outfits, a bunch of Democrats did take money that presumably originated with Jack Abramoff.

DEAN: That's not true either. There's no evidence for that either. There is no evidence...

BLITZER: What about Senator Byron Dorgan?

DEAN: Senator Byron Dorgan and some others took money from Indian tribes. They're not agents of Jack Abramoff. There's no evidence that I've seen that Jack Abramoff directed any contributions to Democrats.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0601/08/le.01.html

Actually Abramoff mocked the Indians for giving Dems any contributions.

Dean is correct.