Without Nader, there'd be no Alito.

[LoZoccolo]

Yes I've heard the argument about the disenfranchised voters, and that some other third parties could have tipped the scale. Yes, I know your vote is yours to do with what you want. But none of that touches this fact:

Without Nader, there'd be no Alito.

Some of you attention (seekers) like to continue to claw at the Democratic Party, thus paving the way for Alitos #2-#7 to make their way onto the bench as well. What we'd like you to do is sit down, shut up, and let us go fix what you broke.

[RagingInMiami]

1. Without the DLC

There may never have been a Nader.

[LoZoccolo]

8. That's an interesting point.

So you say that none of the Nader voters are responsible for their actions. If that's so, then do they deserve the attention that they whored for by voting for Nader? After all, they apparently had no agency in it according to this notion.

[RagingInMiami]

15. Every voter is responsible for their vote

And everybody wants to blame somebody else. But before Bush, most people couldn't differentiate between republicans and democrats. Most people just heard a lot of empty promises.

I'd rather blame the Palm Beach butterfly ballots, the black voter disenfranchisement in North Florida and the supreme court for the actions that ultimately lead to Alito.

[LoZoccolo]

16. You completely miss my point on "blame".

I did not assign blame to a single entity out of several, I said that one of those entities could have prevented this.

[RagingInMiami]

31. Of course it could have prevented this

But why dwell on it now?

[LoZoccolo]

Because some attention (seekers) are threatening to pull the same trick.

Why let more Alitos onto the bench if they don't like the first one? It's a matter of learning from history.

[Mountainman]

20. Without support there would have been no Nader.

DLC or no DLC, people knew in 2000 what a loss meant. They new that the next President would name at least 2 if not 3 or 4 Supreme Court judges.

Don't pass the buck, take responsibility for your actions. If you did not vote for Gore, even though you knew what the consequences of his loss meant, take some of the responsibility for today and don't blame any one else for your actions. You had a choice, no one held a gun to your head. Nader did not have a snow ball's chance in hell to change the tide in Washington. It is not the DLC's fault you made your choice to not vote or to vote for Nader.

And I still refuse to "get over it."

[400Years]

28. So will it be Nader's fault when the dems let Alito on the SC?

Was it Nader's fault when they sad by and let W invade iraq?

[Mountainman]

67. There would be no W and no Alito if Gore would have won that's the point

here.

The Dems can not stop the repukes from appointing Alito because they are not the party in power. They are not the party in power because of the 2000 election and the 2002 election and the 2004 election. If there was no third party in 2000 most probably Gore would have been President in 2000 and 2004. Possibly the Dems may have picked up seats in 2002 and 2004 if Gore were President.

There would have been no Iraq war to vote on, no conservative Supreme Court nomination. Get it?

[RagingInMiami]

42. I voted for Gore

But I refuse to get on anybody's case that voted for Nader. I did that before the 2004 election, and most of them voted for Kerry, and it still got ripped off. The predictament we're in now can no longer be blamed on Nader voters.

I blame the media for not reporting on the fraud, and the dems for not making a bigger issue about black box voting before or after the 2004 election.

[mike_c]

2. without Clinton, there'd be no Alito....

After all, it was the Clinton presidency that set the stage for the Bush-Gore race in the first place blah blah blah....

This rationale is such a waste of oxygen.

[acmavm]

7. Then by the same token, if there were no Monica, there wouldn't

be an Alito because he sure as shit pissed off a bunch of people when he decided to be a jerk and then made the unforgiveable mistake of lying about it.

Impeachment material - hell no.
Screwed the pooch for us dems - hell yes

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

34. o/~ I'm still standing, yeah yeah yeah! o/~ n/t

[Armstead]

3. Must be kind of boring where you are today

A good Nader/Green/Democrat flame war is always good to get the blood flowing again, I guess.

[meegbear]

4. Without the Corvair, there'd be no Nader ...

so there.

[leftstreet]

11. LOL!

[BoneDaddy]

5. stupid fucking logic

nuff said

[SaveElmer]

6. You speak the truth my friend!!!...nt

[400Years]

9. stop acting like a baby

you sound just like bill o'lielly "shut up, shut up!"

[LoZoccolo]

13. OK, so someone tells you that something's not important to them at all...

...then later they whine up a shitstorm about it. What would you tell them?

[400Years]

19. the premise to your question makes no sense

who did this and how?

[LoZoccolo]

25. Nader ran on a platform that there was little difference...

...between the candidates of the 2000 election, and therefore it didn't make a difference if you voted for him rather than Gore.

Supreme Court nominations are part of this "little difference". Gore would not have nominated Alito.

Therefore, Supreme Court nominations were not important to Nader voters a few years ago. So they and the people they have managed to delude should shut up with their third-party advocacy at this moment of time.

[400Years]

33. that's bad logic

Nader voters wanted real change, even if it was a stupid faild strategy, does not equal to the idea that they didn't care about SC nominees.

[LoZoccolo]

38. What are you talking about? No they didn't care!

What does "little difference" mean to you? To me it means that they don't really care much about it. I don't see how I can make my point if you won't acknowledge that.

[Lerkfish]

10. blah blah blah

people that tell me to shut up have the opposite effect.
And I'm not even a nader supporter, but now you've made want to scream NADER NADER NADER at the top of my lungs!

heh. I'm Fascist-resistant.

:)

[mikeysnot]

14. Worst post ever.

bad logic, lack of foundation. Oh wait your a sox fan. Nuff said.

ms

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

18. Yes he did have something to do with this.

I did not say he was the only thing, but he was a thing. Read carefully.

[SaveElmer]

24. Fact is...had Nader not run...

There would have been no Florida debacle. Sorry, but Nader and those who voted for him, who said there was no difference between the parties were clearly wrong and should take some of the heat for Bush being there.

No difference than the scorn we heap upon Bush voters now complaining about him.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SaveElmer]

47. Nader had nothing to do with 2004...

However, had we had an incumbent running in 2004, there would have been no election to steal...

Fact is Nader cost Gore enough votes in Florida to throw the state into dispute...that is a plain fact...you can deny it all you want.

Nader's assertion that there was no difference between the parties was clearly wrong, yet people voted for him anyway. Therefore they share in the blame for Bush being there...

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mountainman]

37. If there were no third party, what happened in FL would not have happened.

If Gore won, why are we having this debate? It is amazing to me how some people want to walk away from the elitism they showed in 2000. It was so damned smug to say that the Dems were the same as the Repukes. No, FL happened because the election was close enough for it to happen. Two percent more and Gore could have won without FL. The two percent that went to Nader had it gone to Gore would have put it in the bag for us.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mountainman]

69. I will vote for the DLC candidate if that's who the Dems run before

I would hand the country to the repukes.

[Dr Fate]

21. I vote DEMOCRATIC in the hopes that they fight the Alito's of the world.

I hope that will likely be dashed.

Sorry, I cant blame Nader (who I dislike, just like you) for what Democrats may or may not refuse to do.

[400Years]

23. Right, I guess we can blame Nader when the dems don't filibuster

[Dr Fate]

32. Or any other time they have given Bush everything he wants.

Boy, that Nader sure is powerful.

[katinmn]

26. Did Nader put a gun to Dems' heads and force them to vote for

The war
Many supplemental war funding bills
Bankrupty "reform"
Etc.

I think not.

I wish SOMEONE could convince them to take up the subject of election reform. Hmmm. Two presidential elections stolen and hardly a peep!

No, it is you who broke it by never questioning, never fighting, always apologizing for poor performance.

[bowens43]

27. You're absolutely riight.

Nader gave us bush and everything that occurred as result of this failed nomination and still people haven't learned that lesson.

[DarienComp]

29. I like pie.

Anyone else? :popcorn:

[fujiyama]

46. What flavor?

I like apple. Pecan is a bit too sweet for me. Peach is good.

[John Q. Citizen]

30. Lame. Yawn. n/t

[vi5]

35. I agree, but I can't believe you walked into this...

the flames were predictable.

And true to form nobody responded to the basic point: Does anyone who thought that 6 years ago on here believe Gore would have nominated Alito or someone with a record similar to Alito?

I fail to see how this conversation:

Person 1: You said 5 years ago that there would be no difference between a Gore and a Bush presidency. How do you feel about that opinion now that Bush has nominated to solidly anti-abortion judges to the Supreme Courth and whittled away at our freedoms as americans?
Person 2: Voters were disenfranchised in Florida and the Supreme Court handed the presidency to Bush.

Is rhetorically speaking any different than:

Person 1: You said Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and we now know that there are not. How do you feel about that opinion now that it has resulted in tens of thousands of deaths?
Person 2: There are schools opening in Iraq and Saddam was a ruthless dictator.

[LoZoccolo]

40. Great analogy!

:thumbsup:

[mattclearing]

41. What a stupid flamebait post.

Nader didn't nominate the bastard. Bush did. And Nader didn't tip the scales the last two elections.

[LoZoccolo]

43. Yes he did.

Come back after you've looked at the Florida vote counts from 2000.

[mattclearing]

50. I have. You clearly are misinformed.

If you look at the overvotes and the law, you'd know that Gore won by quite a bit. And that's not even including the felon purge.

[LoZoccolo]

54. I did not say Nader was the only factor.

He was a factor, who wouldn't have been any factor at all had he not run on lies.

[mattclearing]

55. It's still crap, though, and flamebait.

Let's put the blame where it belongs. The election was stolen by a Supreme Court that had no business intervening, and Nader had nothing to do with it.

[LoZoccolo]

56. Yes he did have something to do with it.

Look at the margin Gore "lost" by and the number of votes Nader got.

Yes, voters were disenfranchised in the 2000 election.
Yes, Gore would have won if Nader voters voted for Gore.

They are both true.

[mattclearing]

57. The fact that you are still harping on about Nader at this stage of the

game is pretty sad.

Nader's voters were not necessarily split from Gore. It's entirely possible that most of them would have stayed home had Nader dropped out/not ran.

You don't know what would have happened had Nader not ran.

Based upon what actually did happen, Gore got more votes under the distinctions made by Florida law.

[LoZoccolo]

58. We need to harp on what people did five years ago.

This is because we need to make sure it doesn't happen again, as people right now on this board are threatening to do.

[mattclearing]

66. Fine. But Nader is the least of it.

It's clear to me that the VRWC is completely responsible for it. Nader is small potatoes.

[seeminer21]

44. Do you blame Michael Moore?

For us being stuck with Alito? Just wondering.

[LoZoccolo]

49. No, and I thought he gave himself too much significance...

...when he blamed himself for it in that book he wrote. The tendency to act like self-defeating, overly-emotional attention whores is not just something that Michael Moore can instill on a group of people by answering a question on TV like the episode mentioned in the book.

[katinmn]

52. What about Cindy Sheehan? Doesn't she deserve some blame?

:sarcasm:

I know she came on the scene later, but she questions authority a lot.

[Douglas Carpenter]

48. This is why it is so important for progressives to work within the

Democratic Party and to advance progressive values and agenda within the Democratic Party and change it into a genuinely progressive party.

Although as others pointed out if the election had been conducted legally and properly--Gore would be President with or without Nader

I would also say that if the Al Gore of 2000 sounded more like the Al Gore in 2004 he would not have lost many votes to Nader

_________________


Borrowed from:
LynnTheDem

a super-majority of Americans are liberal in all but name

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051107/alterman


Public opinion polls show that the majority of Americans embrace liberal rather than conservative positions...
http://www.poppolitics.com/articles/2002-04-16-liberal.shtml


The vast majority of Americans are looking for more social support, not less...
http://www.prospect.org/print/V12/7/borosage-r.html

http://people.umass.edu/mmorgan/commstudy.html

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

51. Without Nathra and Rose Nader there would be no Ralph. If we only

had a cyborg that could travel back in time......

[katinmn]

53. Bwaaa!

:rofl:

[SaveElmer]

59. Notice how...

The same people who mock Bush voters for their buyers remorse, refuse to apply the same standard to Nader voters?

btw: I'm backing you up on this point, but as a Twins fan I still hate the White Sox ;-)

[LoZoccolo]

60. Yes, that is a good point.

And the White Sox are still the world champions! ;)

[SaveElmer]

61. Yes they are...and they deserved it

I know how good that feels...after '87 and '91 I thought I would be happy forever!!!

[mrbill]

62. if a frog had wings, his butt wouldn't drag the ground when he jumped

n/t

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

64. Read #13.

I think there's plenty of reason to tell people they shouldn't complain.

[SaveElmer]

65. The DLC strawman...

Not a word in the original post about the DLC...

Stating a simple fact, and that is Nader cost Gore enough votes to throw Florida into dispute.

Are you saying Nader was correct and there was no substantive difference between Gore and Bush?

[LittleClarkie]

68. Without my left breast, I'd be lopsided

Oh for fuck's sake! Nader wasn't the be all and end all of what happened in 2000! There were many, many factors. Gore didn't gain momentum til the end. Donna Brazille sucked rocks as a campaign manager. Many of us weren't paying attention yet.

You could just as easily say it was my fault for being a sheeple at that point in my life.

That's right, it was me. I did it. I'm a threat to humanity.

Mind you, I don't even LIKE Nader after 2004. But still, this is getting really, really old.

Could we please stop beating this dead horse?

[SteppingRazor]

70. Locking

This is flamebait. Also, there is many a former Naderite here at DU, and some of the original post could be perceived as a group attack.