Are Liberals preempted ? Law Enforcement's conservative bias

[EVDebs]

Most intelligence agency employees, FBI, CIA, and local law enforcement officials, are mostly all conservative types, hence the need for Ray McGovern to form an outside group VIPS--Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity.

I've read in Time Magazine (Aug 4, 1997 p.52) that the FBI and CIA have Mormon recruitment programs, and I don't have to remind you of the voting patterns in that scarlet red state ! With the OSS/CIA's earliest leadership being made up of Knights of Malta (Donovan, Dulles, Angleton, Colby, Casey, etc.), a very conservative Catholic group, I can only say that now that there is suspicion amongst Liberals that 'law enforcement' in general may be spying upon you that you wake up and realize that the plans devised under Ollie North-- suspension of the Constitution and forced detention of dissenters -- is now upon us.

The guy that used to sit in the Office of Legal Counsel to the White House making legal determinations as to the Reagan administration's acts Constitutionality is now being confirmed for a seat on the SCOTUS. That should make everyone sleep better tonight.

Rex84, Ops Garden Plot, Cable Splicer...Alito's seen it all I'll bet.

[Doctor_J]

1. Actually, most of them are ultra-RW,

by their very nature. Not just conservative. So we have wingers making laws, enforcing laws, and interpreting laws.

[AX10]

2. The nature of law enforcement requires one NOT to think...

but to do as they are told. Their job is to enforce whatever laws are on the books.
Justice on the other hand, is more complex and thoughtful. That's why lawyers and judges tend to be moderate/liberal.
Justice is king of "law and order" any day.

Law and Order = Republicans
Justice = Democrats

[3waygeek]

7. Case in point...

my best friend, a MS in physics, has a long-standing interest in law enforcement, especially forensics. Some years ago, he applied to several law enforcement agencies in southern California. He was told more than once that he was "too smart" to be a cop.

[HardWorkingDem]

9. BS......

Cops make more complex decisions on a daily basis than you think or give them credit for, and they do not simply do as they are "told".

[EVDebs]

13. Usually snap judgements

They all must come into situations and 'take control' immediately. Possibly too often their biases play a role that leads to stereotyping. Cops don't want civilian review boards due to LIBERALs controlling those boards; and internal review is hated no matter what.

Just watch the tv cop show storylines. They're 'reality based'. We're being programmed to not ask questions.

[HardWorkingDem]

18. BS again....

Do you want to know why cop's don't want civilian review boards? It has nothing to do with what is portrayed in the media or general thought - the reason cop's don't want them is because whether you believe it or not, there is too much that goes on in policing that outsiders do not take into account. For example, how many people KNOW how hard it is to handcuff a person? Or when a person is mildly resisting? Or when a person is violently resisting? Or why cops command people to do things in harsh tones (TAKE YOUR HANDS OUT OF YOUR POCKET)? It's for survival.

Here is a real example that happened in my area: a black, female motorist with children in the car was driving a stolen vehicle. The general reaction to someone driving a stolen vehicle is to do what is called a felony car stop - guns drawn, commands made at a safe distance and having the motorist get out under orders. In this case the officers did not do that and approached the vehicle and completed their investigation. Afterward, this woman ran to all the cameras and local politicians and city government and screamed that these cops had their guns drawn and were using swear words at her and her children and stopped her because she was black. Guess what? It was all on tape and none of what she said happened, happened. Now, imagine if there were no tape and a civilian review board? By the way, there was no apology from anyone on this either.

As for snap judgments, I suggest you read Malcom Gladwell's "Blink" or Steven Johnson's "Mind Wide Open." Many times quick decisions turn out quite well when compared to well studied and thought out ones.

And have you ever thought that their biases are created by what they see within society on a daily basis and that this leads to their stereotyping?

[ProudDad]

26. Every military and para-military organization

NEEDS OVERSIGHT.

They have a culture of us vs. them that needs constant oversight.

In case you don't know, We are "Them"...

I consider that line, "you don't know what we know" utter BULLSHIT! That's the same line of crap the bushies are shoveling out of the white house. "You don't know what we know, you can't know what we know."

[EVDebs]

31. ProudDad, cops deal dayin/out with the worst 5% of society and then

come home and seem to think EVERYBODY's like that it seems. You're right on the money about constant oversight. We could easily slip into a Mexico situtation with 'the bite' they talk about down there. Our politics is already a single-party parody of the PRI down there !

[zanne]

36. Y'know who else deals with the worst 5%?

Social workers. Yet somehow, they don't turn into thugs. Hmmmmmmmm.

[HardWorkingDem]

41. Jesus, not all cops are thugs.....

but I bet if you go to these social workers and survey them before they start their career in social work, then re-survey at five year intervals, you would be amazed at how their perceptions, views and beliefs alter, change and evolve.

Besides, social workers are not necessarily a valid group to use as a comparison.

[HardWorkingDem]

32. Agree wholeheartedly about oversight, but...

it must be oversight by people who have knowledge of an occupations procedures and practices. Just selecting people who are outspoken in the community to overlook the actions of the police will not be sufficient. It has to be people who have a working knowledge of an occupations inner-workings. And this is not for the purpose to whitewash a scandal, but so those making the decisions understand the intricacies of the job.

For an example, as I stated earlier, very few people have a working knowledge of how hard it is to handcuff one person. And that task becomes even harder when resisting increases. To a community activist, I have frequently heard them state things like, "why did it take five cops to arrest my boy?" Sadly, because that is often times how many it takes.

But I am not for allowing organizations to escape all oversight, just expressing a need for knowledgeable oversight. You wouldn't want a bunch of carpenters with oversight of brain surgeons would you?

[alarimer]

38. I agree with you

Something has to counter that attitude. The fact that the poster above called members of review boards "outsiders" speaks volumes about the culture and attitudes within law enforcement.

[SteppingRazor]

3. I don't think law enforcement has a conservative bias so much as...

both law enforcement and conservatism are biased toward the same thing -- preserving the status quo. Police organizations -- from your local cops all the way to the FBI -- are not really law enforcement organizations so much as they are organizations dedicated to the preserving of the current power structure...

This is why an FTAA protest in Miami can result in widespread police brutality, but a bunch of conservatives can show up, riot, and shut down the Miami recount in the 2000 election. Alternatively, this is why Gov. Schwarzenegger can get a pass on not having a motorcycle license when he gets in an accident on his motorcycle, but an average biker would be heavily fined, if not arrested.

It is not the police's bias toward conservatism, but rather their bias toward the power structure and toward the policies supported by those in power.

[semillama]

4. You nailed it on the head.

and of course, maintaining the status quo is part of the working definition of conservatism.

[EVDebs]

5. Yes, good point on the 'Brooks Bros. riot' as Miami 2000 recount

showed us. By working 'against' defense lawyers, whose job the media portrays as merely the evil ones who work to 'get the bad guys outta jail', the MSM portrays the legal system even as the 'enemy'. Dirty Harry must step in to save the day continually...Going by the book is seen as impractical and counterproductive, even when it causes cases to be thrown out later.

[HardWorkingDem]

10. Do you really think....

that a mere cop would be allowed to ticket a sitting gov or stop a mini-riot over the Miami recount? Sheesh...it's not a rank and file cop that makes a decision like these - it is the power structure that makes it. If a mere cop ever tried to ticket someone like Schwarzenegger he or she would find themselves looking for a new job.

[SteppingRazor]

11. If cops can't stop a "mini-riot," as you put it...

What the fuck good are they?

And, as I pointed out in my previous post, it's not as though the cops in that same city are squeamish about beating the fuck out of people when the situation calls for it -- or even when the situation doesn't, as a few thousand peaceful FTAA protestors will tell you.

[HardWorkingDem]

12. My point was....

if anyone thinks that rank and file cops could have walked in and stopped the fabricated "mini" riot during the recount, then they are not using real life logic. That would have been job loss by political suicide. As soon as cops would have started in, calls from all high levels of rethuglican government would have been calling chiefs, sheriffs and other polictial cronies and getting it stopped immediately.

As for the few thousand peaceful FTAA protesters, it doesn't matter. Cops are about law, order and structure. They could not care less about any Marxist thought of protecting the political status quo structure. At it's most basic level it is what I call the "pain in the ass" factor - in other words, the biggest pains in the ass for law enforcement get all the attention.

[SteppingRazor]

16. Oh, I agree that cops don't dwell on Marxist philosophy...

But this line you wrote -- "Cops are about law, order and structure" -- essentially says the same thing I did. I don't think cops consciously think "I must protect the status quo from the proletariat" or some other such nonsense. But their actions result in exactly that.

[HardWorkingDem]

19. Not an active or conscious sort of thing...

they do not even think of protecting the status quo along the lines you are mentioning. It may appear that way to you, but the intent simply is not there.

And this is part of our problem when it comes to cops and Democratic ideals. I would venture a guess that if cops were asked correctly worded questions, more often than not, about the only area we would lose in is the perception of being tough on crime. We simply are not seen as being tough on crime. We are seen as the party that stands up for criminal rights and creates "technical" issues that free criminals or prevent them from being prosecuted in the first place.

And this is the most political defining issue for cops, when it should be other things. For example, Clinton and the 100,000 cops on the street. If you ask any cop what he or she really wants, it's more help and more cops. And look how Dems are repaid. Bush cuts police department funding and grants, and look how Dems are repaid. Bush wanted to cut overtime for cops, and look how Dems are repaid.

It just goes on and on.

[SteppingRazor]

21. I completely agree it's not a conscious effort on their part...

But the end result of collective police action is the same, whether conscious or not. The people in power and their interests are preserved. The most needy and helpless are made moreso.
I'm not saying all cops are bad. And, of course, we need some enforcement of the laws. But the long-term, collective result of our current system of law enforcement is to the detriment of the most desperate, and to the benefit of the most affluent. And any system that best serves the "haves" and least serves the "have nots" leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[ProudDad]

27. On COURSE the intent is there.

People are messy, they aren't all decked out in clean, pressed uniforms with the same haircuts and the same "we're all in this together against the world" mindset that "us cops" are.

I ran into the same BS mentality in the military.

They are ALL ABOUT preserving the status quo!

[EVDebs]

14. Seattle WTO police riot; most cities have police 'intelligence' liasons

that as the city of Denver shows targets liberal groups as 'terrorists' when that is CLEARLY not the case. We now have two lawsuits pending on the federal level re wiretaps, one on a Quaker group.

Owners of Almanacs were called terrorists awhile back too. Sheeesh !

[HardWorkingDem]

20. There are bad apples...

in EVERY bunch and great apples in every bunch. It's not right, fair or conducive to group any one group in one, large stereotype.

But again, it gets back to the "pain in the ass" factor" as explained in another thread.

[EVDebs]

23. ....and the Chicago Police Riot during the DNC '68 Convention nt

And when the whole force goes bonkers, then what ?

[HardWorkingDem]

25. Oh, sure, bring up stuff 40 yrs ago...

I just love how fellow Democrats like to bring up things that happened 40 yrs ago to make their point when under other circumstances, i.e. Robert Byrd and his evolution, it is seen as unfair.

Whether anyone wants to believe it or not, there is a great deal of forward movement within policing.

[EVDebs]

30. "Fellow Democrat"....many reregistered Green because of Dems

actively promoting the WTO/Repubican agenda, which is why the Seattle police riot (oh dear, too recent for you ?) probably doesn't mean anything to you nor will the current domestic surveillances. YOU won't end up in an Ollie North style Rex 84/OpGardenPlot,CableSplicer 'detention camp', but other Dems, Greens, progressives surely will.

"Forward movement" in policing ! Sounds like you're making excuses for the Denver PD's recent crossing of the line.

You've got to live with that 'forward movement', and apparently keep it hidden. Besides Denver's well publicized incident Portland OR's police force did much the same thing

'The Secret Watchers How the police bureau spied for decades on the people of Portland'

BY BEN JACKLET Issue date: 9/13/2002 The Tribune


http://www.refuseandresist.org/police_state/art.php?aid=572

Since you seem to have a great knowledge of 'forward movement' in the police community, how do we get them to go after REAL terrorists and not just the figments of their imaginations ?

[HardWorkingDem]

33. Typical...

You know, you have no idea what all of my opinions are, but immediately throw me into the same crowd as Ollie North and other abusive right wingers. I find it very disappointing that there are members that use the same crappy tactics as the right does.

First, why don't you ask someone about a particular issue, i.e. the Seattle WTO problem, before you immediately assign your own judgment about a person's opinion? For the record, I do not think you will find many credible people who will not agree that the police response in Seattle was not what it was hoped to be and that it was over reactive.

And frankly, this is about all the time I'm going to spend responding to this particular posting because YOU have all ready made your won mind up about what MY opinions are. I suggest if you want to paint people with a broad brush without even asking their opinion first then you become a little more mature about it.

[EVDebs]

35. Typical, you responded to MY post but didn't like what you learned

I'm not one of the DLC crowd that 'goes along just to get along' and ends up worse off for it. You may be.

[HardWorkingDem]

40. Would like some mature debate or back and forth, not...

tossed around assumptions of fellow DU'ers.

For example, because someone obviously has a differing opinion of you, you use the immature trick of painting someone with a differing opinion with a nasty broad brush - a tactic perfected by the right by the way. This is what I mean:

"which is why the Seattle police riot (oh dear, too recent for you ?) probably doesn't mean anything to you nor will the current domestic surveillances"

This domestic wiretapping means a great fucking deal to me. I think it is atrocious, criminal and am disgusted that so many Americans don't seem to be as enraged as I am. But what do you do? Apparently because someone doesn't agree with whatever point you think is right, you use disparaging points to make your own point.

And then, what did you just do here? YOU apparently tried to call me a frigging DLC'er.

[tn-guy]

6. What do you base your assertion on?

You may well be right that most intelligence agency employees are "mostly all conservative types" but I'm unaware of any data to back that up. I don't see that a desire to serve in an intelligence agency capacity is inherently a conservative or liberal mindset. Do you have some study to document your claim?

[EVDebs]

15. CIA's leadership cadre from DAY ONE was Knights of Malta

a fiercely Catholic conservative organization. Wm Wild Bill Donovan, Wm Casey, Wm Colby, James Jesus Angleton, Allen Dulles, Reinhard Gehlen (from Operation Paperclip)...the list goes on and on. Even Robert Hanssen, the FBI's latest insider/spy, was Opus Dei, a very conservative outfit if there ever was one.

Intelligence doesn't recruit from the liberal pool of applicants in case you haven't noticed.

They like their Mormon recruitment plan (see Time Mag. Aug 4, 1997 'Kingdom Come' p. 52 by D. Van Biema), and Utah is essentially over 90% for Bush in last few elections. Get the point now ?

[Zodiak]

39. Porter Goss

purged the CIA of all dissenting opinions when it came to Bush. So, at least for the CIA, if one says "mostly conservative", it is true.

How quickly we forgot the purge.

The purge at CIA

By H.D.S. Greenway | November 19, 2004

PORTER GOSS, President Bush's new director of central intelligence, has told his staff that their job is to "support the administration and its policies" and cautioned them not to "identify with, support, or champion opposition to the administration." OK, the Central Intelligence Agency is part of the executive branch of government, and it goes without saying that it should support its foreign policy goals.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/11/19/the_purge_at_cia/

[HardWorkingDem]

8. BS - and a lot of mis perceptions here....

Okay, when it comes to politics, I'm going to clue a lot of liberals in on about how cops really are:

The largest defining part of their politics comes from their perception of crime: liberals are seen as weak on crime. This is probably the number one issue when it comes to cop political thinking. Someone could come along and write a book on cops called "What Is The Matter in Law Enforcement" just like Thomas Frank did about Kansas. (It is very, very ironic that cops are union members but often times refute that claim and do not appreciate that their benefits and salaries have came from Democratic ideals).

Another thing is that many cops define the world by what they see on a day in/day out basis and unfortunately, this is not always an accurate picture. And when they see the same people doing the same thing after being part of a judicial catch and release system, it's easy to see why they use the "weak on crime" standard to when it comes to their conservative thought.

Cops also are mandated by the laws of the nation - unlike the Marxist belief in cops being conscious in maintaining the status quo, cops seem themselves basically as crime fighters and the protectors of society.

[EVDebs]

17. Most of the crimes are drug related, 'war on drugs' is a huge failure

See The Politics of Heroin: CIA Complicity in the Global Drug Trade by Alfred McCoy. This is a planned war of failure. What secret non-congressional funding is going on that requires opium and cocaine in vast quantities along with moneylaundering ?

[ProudDad]

28. Ok, I'll bring it closer to the present

Rodney King "insurrection". Where were the cops.

Protecting the affluent white areas. They sure as hell weren't in Compton.

Or how about Katrina. The cops were on the bridge keeping people from escaping from New Orleans, maintaining the status quo in Gretna Parish. That was just last year.

In EVERY case if it's the rich, affluent power structure vs. the people, the cops will ALWAYS be on the side of the rich and powerful.

[HardWorkingDem]

34. Articles....

If you go back and search the archives of US News, you might find an excellent article about the riots after the Rodney King trial. Sadly, the aftermath could have been prevented with just a few changes.

It is so easy to always play the "hindsight is 20/20" game, but in all the instances you mention there is one thing in common: local resources were completely overwhelmed. The New Yorker had a recent article on the cops in NO and Katrina. It also is a very good article that shows how local resources were overwhelmed as well. And what Americans, all Americans, outside of NO are missing out on is exactly what weaknesses Katrina revealed about American life. I highly recommend that article. But one problem down there was that all of the law enforcement agencies communication methods were completely cut off. Nothing. Now, imagine what that means to any agency that relies on communication? No hand radio, no car radio, no cell telephones. Nothing.

Lastly, believe me, you will not find a person any more critical of the predatory capitalistic system in American than I, however, let's be honest about the line between the power structure and basic people: it's not a bunch of rich folk out there that go rioting and tearing stuff up. Most times, agencies respond to where and who is creating the problem, regardless of race, money or influence.

Do you really think that if a bunch of investment bankers were pissed at some bank and were headed over there with sledge hammers and pitchforks to destroy the building and those in it, that the police wouldn't do a thing about it?

[EVDebs]

37. Articles...

A recent post about a congressman and a $250K loan
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2049377

""Do you really think that if a bunch of investment bankers were pissed at some bank and were headed over there with sledge hammers and pitchforks to destroy the building and those in it, that the police wouldn't do a thing about it?"

I seem to remember a S&L scandal during the late '80s, early '90s where around $500 billion was lost by the managers of these S&Ls ... using fountain pens and not handguns...and the police didn't do much at all, and in fact by NOT investigating were probably 'enablers' to the real crimes being committed under their noses.

White collar crime isn't local law enforcement's specialty.

[HardWorkingDem]

42. Sheesh...

you completely missed the analogy. Is this your form of debate or what?

[EVDebs]

43. No, my 'debate' isn't with you at all

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=170938&mesg_id=177220

[Radical Activist]

22. Most bleeding heart liberals aren't attracted to a law enforcement career

Its no surprise that a majority are conservative. The exception of course, being Irish cops in Chicago and New York. :)

[HardWorkingDem]

24. You might be surprised....

I find it quite interesting that a lot of comments in this thread obviously come from people who have their own biases and stereotypes and refuse to admit to them or acknowledge them.

[Jamison]

29. Supporting law & order doesn't necessarily have to be conservative.

I'd consider myself A LOT more conservative than most people here on the subject, but I don't agree with the freepers on everything. I definitely think the drug war in general (especially against marijuana) is a serious waste of time & resources for law enforcement. Other "victimless" crimes such as gambling, prostitution, vagrancy and such should also be decriminalized. My philosophy is that the punishment for a crime should be given in relation to how much harm the crime causes to others. With this philosophy, I think that murderers, child molesters, and other career criminals should be locked away for a long time, if not life. I'm also pro-death penalty, depending on the circumstances. I also didn't mind Sheriff Joe Arpaio's tent city prison in Arizona. Prison should not be pleasant. If it were truly unpleasant, then people wouldn't be beating down the doors to get in.