Chocolate? Plantations?? What the HELL is wrong with people??

[renie408]

What in the name of god possesses people to make comments like "New Orleans will be a chocolate city when it is all over" and "The Congress is run like a plantation."?? I have been supporting Hillary's comments in DUing all the polls, but to be dead honest....god almighty, that was a STUPID thing to say.

And Nagin has just gone insane. The pressure and hardship got to him and he has just freaked out.

[LeftCoast]

1. Well, before you get too upset about the "plantation" comment

Go check out this google search and you'll see the flap is far more about spin than substance.

via atrios

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22democratic+plantation%22&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

[enid602]

9. Hillary

I think the 'plantation' comment was well thought and calculated, as are all of the Clintons' comments re: the current regime. Despite the time-honored tradition of ex-Presidents not criticising the current WH occupant, Bill and Hillary are slowly but surely ganging up on Georgie. More power to them.

[enough already]

52. If you think that kind of race baiting helps in a general election

you are quite mistaken. I'm not supporting her under any circumstances, but this was just downright stupid.

[Capn Sunshine]

90. If it was "race baiting", there would have been outrage over Gingrich

when he used the EXACT SAME METAPHOR to describe congress.

But this is all about distracting people from this comment

"I predict to you that this administration will go down in history as one of the worst that has ever governed our country."

[renie408]

14. Say what you want, let us never forget the 'Scream' that was heard

around the country. Howard Dean will be remembered forever by many people not as a man who revolutionized campaigning with his grassroots/internet approach or for any of the many, many accomplishments he has. He will be forever remembered for
THAT SCREAM.

What Hillary meant and what the press will do with it are two different things.

[Hello_Kitty]

49. The Scream was bogus, too

They doctored the tape by removing background noise to make it resonate more. If you listen to actual, undoctored, audio of the event it doesn't seem strange at all. Besides, I think Dr. Dean's candid rhetoric and the faux indignation from the Right it has spawned have actually managed to eclipse the infamous Scream.

As long as there are Puke smear-mongers and an obliging press, anything a Dem says or does can be turned against him/her. Shit, we somehow made Mrs. ScAlito cry while a Republican senator was questioning her husband!

It's going to be twisted anyway so why should prominent Dems be ultra-careful and timid in their expressions? I say the hell with that. Let loose!

[400Years]

63. looks like renie buys into every bullshit media framing

[thinkingwoman]

69. Not exactly

looks more like renie understands how the media portrays Democrats and how the public buys into it.

[renie408]

70. Ding Ding Ding...give the little lady a prize!

Why is it so hard, after all the evidence of the past decade, for some people to understand that BEING RIGHT IS NOT ENOUGH! We have also got to be SMART. On the front page of the DU this morning is a piece entitled "Scandology 101" that talks about how the media produces or ignores scandals. Having been the victims of this for over ten years, you think Dems would start to figure it out.

[thinkingwoman]

76. the most frustrating thing...

is watching Democrat after Democrat snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

[ProSense]

77. The point being missed is the media is trying to create the impression

that the public is outraged. The public is not. This is an instance where the media is working to produce a scandal at the Democrats' expense. It isn't working, no it can't work, because the majority of the public has already decided they support Hillary's comment. Sharpton and Conyers already renounced the media. But the MSM will continue trying for a little while (a day or so) to see if it can get any traction. It will not.

The MSM works two ways: producing scandals to hurt Democrats and ignoring scandals to protect Republicans.

In many instances the first drives perception, but only if the public is unaware or undecided and requires more information and turns to the MSM for objectivity.

In this instance, with Hillary's comments (since it's not policy or something like, let's say the Abramoff scandal), the public has decided. They heard what was said, and decided---no further details required.

This is similar to the Murtha smear: the public has decided it is against the Iraq war (no further details required for that position), Murtha makes his statement, then the media tries to create the perception that the public is against withdrawal. It isn't true, but they try to do it after the fact, after the public no longer needs the MSM to make a decision because too many facts are out there now.

This is the point being missed: the public has already decided, so there is no scandal, no outrage.

[renie408]

81. Maybe you are right

Maybe my perception of public reaction is skewed by the fact that I live in the reddest state imaginable...SC. This is not a great time for me to debate this having just spent at least an hour doing damage control with my mother and another friend of mine who were, BTW, OUTRAGED at Hillary's lack of sensitivity. Maybe if I lived somewhere less biased against Dems from the get-go, stuff like this wouldn't piss me off so much.

[ProSense]

86. One of the things that strikes me

is how often the word plantation is used throughout the Country and certain people don't seem to mind. The plantations are museums now. I guess history must be recorded and never forgotten.

[renie408]

91. The weird thing to me

is that a lot of the reaction seems directed towards the use of the word 'plantation' instead of the imagery she invoked. To me, if people were going to get cranked up it would be over saying that being a Dem in congress right now is the same as being a slave. But I don't seem to be hearing that mentioned much. It is directed at the word 'plantation'.

[radio4progressives]

93. ProSense, Has put it quite succinctly...

I would embellish a bit, in saying that the Fascists Corporate Media intended for the public to be outraged - that was their aim.

It serves a number of purposes, much already enumerated here and elsewhere.

the question at issue, is why is anyone willing to react obediently to the Fascists Corporate Media's agenda?

[beaconess]

95. Al Sharpton nailed it last night on Hardball

RON CHRISTIE: If a Republican senator had gone into an African-American church, and said the same thing before a Black audience, if they were Republican, all of the usual suspects would have been out there saying that person was racially insensitive they should have resigned, etc.

It‘s a double standard and I don‘t understand how any Democrat, how any American, can condone that type of language and behavior in the political discourse on a day when we‘re here to celebrate, Reverend Martin Luther King‘s birthday, a man of peace, a man of non-violence. It's despicable.

SHARPTON: May I respond? First of all, there were 2,000 Blacks there, so if we were going to be offended, they would have been offended. Secondly, I don‘t remember the RNC supporting us even having the holiday of Martin Luther King. It amazes me how the Republican party, who by and large oppose the holiday, starts telling us how to celebrate the holiday.

. . .

This is the only black you could find - who happened to come out of the Bush White House. 98 percent of blacks are voting Democrat, 2,000 blacks yesterday cheered her. You combed Washington and you can only find my brother Ron who comes out of the Bush White House that was offended.

CHRISTIE: Now Al, you‘ve got to stop this.

SHARPTON: So who‘s offended? The people who were not victimized on the plantation?
. . .
MATTHEWS: Well why do only two percent of African-Americans tell pollsters they‘re Republicans now? That‘s the lowest I can ever remember it.

CHRISTIE: Because, Chris, I think a lot of people watch television, there‘s a lot of that Hollywood liberal leap that says, “Oh, the Republicans don‘t care about black folks.” They don‘t look at what the Republican Party has actually done.

MATTHEWS: Well wait a minute. You‘re not saying blacks are taking their lead from Hollywood?

CHRISTIE: No, I‘m saying blacks are taking their lead from what they hear on television, from people like the liberal media.

SHARPTON: So you don‘t think the FOX channel works in our house? There‘s nothing on television but conservatives.

[bee]

119. newsflash...

Her mindless statement offended all of the most Liberal people I know... and it has nothing to do with media framing. No, I have never cared for her. But I know several people who would have voted for her before, but now? They say "never" . Renie is right. It was a dumb, dumb, dumb thing to say. And unfortunately for her, it was just offensive enough to overshadow what good things she did say. It may be great to most of the people here on DU. My in my experience, here in NH, it was totally counter-productive.

[dogday]

99. Absolutely correct

does not mater what you say or do, if you are targeted by this administration, they are going to go after you somehow, some way.

[ScreamingWhisper]

106. I was watching the speech that night.

I saw , nor heard any doctored versions for audio.
Dean was just really, really wound-up and excited

[KoKo]

Didn't you get the message? We are fighting the Civil War all over again!

The Repugs have used race and South against us now for decades. Time to turn their racism back on their heads.

Remember, Bush has turned back the clock to the "Founding Fathers" and the Constructionalists/Federalists he's putting on the Supreme Court believe we should go back to the Constitution and a strict read of it...before Blacks were American Citizens with equal rights, and American Females won the right to vote and be co-equal in matters of choice about their own lives.

They are White Supremists...and Hillary and Nagin are calling them out.

[buff2]

10. I agree with you

It's the reason repukes are so happy with their boy king. They want it back to the way it used to be....segregation,and no civil rights,especially for blacks. My God,I am white and I see it VERY clearly...I feel most blacks see it too. It's a scary situation we are all in right now. I fear for ALL of us. We have a pRESIDENT who is a madman and a racist and his administration are the same. I'm waiting for the uprising. It's got to happen or we can kiss America good-by forever. :scared: :scared:

[renie408]

16. I DO get it and I don't disagree.

But when even John Stewart is making fun of her for it and she is being quoted out of context every two minutes on every news station I have seen, I am not sure it is going to work for her the way she thought it was. Or maybe it will. On the surface of things, it appears to me to have been a gamble that may not pay off.

[The Magistrate]

41. That Is The Underlying Dynamic, Ma'am

"I will fight the secesh till Hell freezes over, then fight on the ice!"

[Caution]

2. I'm with you on the Nagin thing. He has simply lost it

I dont know enough about the hillary thing to comment but my noodly appendaged deity Nagin sounds like he has simply gone nuts.

[RoyGBiv]

8. I don't think so ...

I don't think a lot of people have the proper appreciate for exactly what he, and his city, has had to endure. He and most others not bought and paid by Shrub-Co have been saying things similar to this for months. He simply used rhetoric that got noticed. It was an unfortunate necessity to draw attention back to That Which White American Would Rather Forget.

I vaguely know him from his professional life. He's not given to making statements without a purpose behind them, no matter how provacative.

[enid602]

13. Nagin

Chocolate is brown, tasty and exotic. As opposed to vanilla. I think Nagin's chocolate metaphor was to assure doubters that he will try to ensure that New Orleans remains the diverse cultural hodgepodge that it's always been.

[LittleClarkie]

19. It wasn't that chocolate statement that got me from Nagin

it was that the hurricanes were God's punishment for Bush's policies or something like that. Sort of a weird Pat Robertson-esque statement.

And Hillary was in a church in Harlem when she made that statement and got thunderous applause. I would think if anyone was going to have an issue with her statement it would be them. So who am I to take issue?

[renie408]

21. yeah, they said something on The Daily Show about Nagin

channeling Pat Robertson. The whole thing was surreal. Then him telling the reporter, "You take rich dark chocolate and add it to creamy milk and get a delicious drink". It was just a BAD analogy. It didn't work for me.

[markus]

22. Have you ever heard a Baptist sermon?

Leaving aside the chocolate remark, what you heard were common rhetorical devices, from the Old Testament invocation through the imaginary conversation with Dr. MLK to the final zinger suggesting God sent the hurricanes to straight us all out, to tell us to look inside and ask what we've done wrong.

For the audience, there wasn't a damn thing wrong with it. Its one thing to use the rhetorical devices of the pulpit. It's another to be Pat Robertson with the strange blow in one's eyes and to believe that god spins up hurricanes for his entertainment like a kid with a top.

[renie408]

25. OK, see, this is where you lose me. Nagin is OK tosay that

hurricanes are god's retribution because he is a mayor and those are common rhetorical devices of Baptist ministers. Pat Robertson is NOT ok to say the same thing because he is a Baptist minister...Can you see how that might be confusing??

Or is it OK from Nagin because he said it in condemnation of the war and not Ok for Robertson because he said it in an anti-gay context? So that it is easily believable that god would send hurricanes to New Orleans because we are in Iraq, but not because of the 'moral laxity' of the city?

[The Magistrate]

43. With All Due Respect, Ma'am

And in all the seriousness possible for me to muster: what ouir side does is right, and what the other side does is wrong. Until people internalize this simple dictum to the point of instinctual reaction, we will remain at a grave disadvantage in the struggle for active support among the mass of the people....

"Politics ain't bean-bag."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[renie408]

71. Huh? What in the hell does that MEAN? n/t

[meow2u3]

44. The 'chocolate' metaphor is old school slang

Chocolate city, vanilla suburbs.

[LittleClarkie]

46. Okay, that explains that. Like I said, didn't bother me.

Figured it had to do with being rich in flavor.

Just wondering why he sounded like he was channelling Robertson on the other stuff, is all.

[formernaderite]

62. Nagin has decided to become the "black" mayor

since he was originally elected by the white population of the city, he's obviously trying to make a "black" comeback. Not sure what his political strategy is since most of NO's black population has not come back.

[auroraslight]

3. Its NEW ORLEANS for christ's sake!

It is an entire seperate planet. Trust me on this.

[RoyGBiv]

4. No, it wasn't ...

The word has been used to describe Democrats/liberals for years. I'm just a little surprise so many so-called Democrats seem so completely unaware of that.

[buff2]

5. Did you get this upset when the rightwingnuts talked about

not letting NO go back to the way it WAS? Meaning the majority of it being BLACKS? What Nagin said and what Hillary said is FREEDOM OF SPEECH. Oh,excuse me. I forgot this is Bu$h's country. :puke:

[renie408]

12. Oh for Christ's sake

You know good and goddam well that I am not denying their right to say whatever they want. I am exercising MY freedom of speech to make the observation that in MY opinion, they were stupid comments to make. I do understand what Hillary was trying to say and I don't disagree with her. BUT look at the fucking press it is getting. It was a stupid way to say it.

And BUFF, if I knew how, I would be barfing now too.

[lyonn]

17. But Hillary is getting press, that is good

Nothing else in the speech was mentioned. We complain that the dems don't make a stand. She was stating that the dems in the House are unable to say or do anything, Conyers for instance wanted a hearing on the DSM and the intel for going to war and he was turned down. He was allowed a very tiny room to have "his unofficial" hearing. It meant nothing.

We now know that Gingrich said that about the dems in congress in approx. 1994, and many others referred to the democratic plantation. There is a discussion going on. Same for Gore. They are now spending time discussing what bush is doing, things that have been swept under the rug are now being discussed.

Nagin, I can't say. New Orleans is being treated like a step-child and neglected.

[renie408]

20. I really hope you are right. I really hope that the spin machine

misses on this one. It would be great if people would hear what she MEANT as opposed to what the MSM makes it sound like.

[lady lib]

6. What does Hillary's comment mean anyway?

So Bush is the master and who are the slaves? Congress? I don't understand. Slaves couldn't speak up for themselves and had obey orders, but Congress chooses to acquiesce. There's a huge difference, so I'm just not getting the comparison.

[Blue_Roses]

39. well think of it this way

when you have a huge tax cut going to the wealthy but yet they can't even give the working class a raise in minimum wage, then yes, the plantation would be congress...

and that's just one example...

[Erika]

7. Gingrich used the term "plantation" in the 1990's to

describe the House. Nagin was a Republican until recently.

[Jim Sagle]

11. Chill. Hillary's comment RRRRRRAWWWWWKEDDDD!!!!!!

[The Magistrate]

45. It Does Indeed, Mr. Sagle

Always a pleasure to see that inspirational graphic, Sir!

[Jim Sagle]

113. Now if we could just persuade the Democrats to feel the same way..

[journalist3072]

15. Why Senator Clinton was RIGHT!!!!!!

Sen. Clinton hit the nail on the head about the House "plantation."

I posted this in another thread earlier this evening, but I think it bears repeating here.

Let's examine the facts:

1. When Rep. John Conyers wanted to hold a hearing on media bias, he was NOT allowed to use one of the regular hearing rooms that are normally used. Instead, the Republicans sent him into a small room in the basement. Furthermore, they would not permit him to call it a "hearing." He had to call it a "forum" on media bias, because he was not given subpoena power to call witnesses.

2. The Republican leadership has a practice of holding votes open for extended periods of time. When they realize they are short of votes, or fear it will be extremely close, they hold the vote on the bill at hand open for longer than normally expected, so they can go arm twist people into voting their way.

3. They sometimes will force a vote on a critical bill, before the Democrats have had a chance to fully read the bill so they know what they are voting on. When Democrats say the need more time to read a 100-page bill, for example, they are denied, and the vote takes place anyway.

The House Republicans have continously squelched minority dissent in the House. Obviously they do not believe that we are a nation of majority rule and minority rights.

I just finished posting about this on my blog:

http://progressiveminds.bloghi.com/2006/01/17/why-sen-clinton-was-right-about-the-house-plantation.html

[renie408]

18. If the past six years have taught me anything,it is that being right isn't

worth squat. We have been right all along. Bush is wrong all the damn time. About just about everything. Right doesn't seem to be paying off for the Democratic party as well as their talking points and media spin are paying off for the GOP.

[journalist3072]

27. Well, I would say that....

Because the Democratic Party has done such a poor job of getting its message out, the American people don't know the Dems are right!!!

Time and again, polls have shown that when the American people know where the Dems stand on the issues, the Dems win. The majority of the American people agree with the Dems on issues such as health care, education, etc.

The Democratic Party has to be more effective in getting it's message out.

In other words, it's not enough to say that so-and-so is wrong. People might know that so-and-so is wrong. But they also want to know: what do you offer me instead? Do you bring me hope?

[renie408]

30. I could not agree more.

Maybe I am wrong. I really hope I am. I understand perfectly the intent behind Clinton's comments. But it seems to me that any Dem politician that had been around for the past ten years would have to know that those words would be twisted all to hell in the MSM. I do NOT disagree with the sentiment, I think that the delivery of the message was a mistake. The message is lost to the average person in all the hullabaloo over the language.

[journalist3072]

110. Really, I don't think the message is lost to the average person

I'm an average citizen, and I "get it." I think it's the right-wing media that's making an issue of this.

[enough already]

53. What was the "hope" in Hillary's plantation comments?

Honestly, this was just stupid.

[journalist3072]

111. I just don't think it was stupid....

I think she said what has needed to be said for a long time now.

I've posted some more stuff about this on my blog today. Please check it out.

For example, I talk about the day in July 2003 when House Republicans called the Capitol Hill police to remove some Democrats on the House Ways and Means Committee from a library, and possibly arrest them.

And I also talk about how the Republicans took what was supposed to be a 5 minute vote on the Gasoline for America's Security Act, and held the vote open for 40 minutes until they got the votes they needed to pass the bill.

http://progressiveminds.bloghi.com/2006/01/18/house-plantation-at-work-the-day-that-house-republicans-called-capitol-police-to-evict-democrats.html

http://progressiveminds.bloghi.com/2006/01/18/plantation-politics.html

[radio4progressives]

100. Peferct Example that Supports HRC's Remarks.. It is So Spot On..

all this media hype is really a tempest in a teapot, intended to bring on the "scorn" of racists reationaries from the repukes - as if they had a leg to stand on in any of this.

I say let 'em bring it on - we stand by HRC's Plantation Remarks , and Negin's "Chocolate" city too for that matter.

[guidod]

103. You're right on with Hillary and

well said. There's probably nothing wrong with what Nagin said I just think, from the moment I saw him on TV after the hurricane, he seems very weak and not much of a mayor. He didn't do anything wrong for the people of New Orleans, I just don't think he's someone that I would vote for. Only my opinion.

[radio4progressives]

108. I agree with you.. if i lived N.O. I'd be looking to recruit

someone to replace Negin, that wasn't on the take who is deeply rooted in the community - someone honest and respected, and hopefully a Progressive African American!

Surely, there are Progressive African American's who can represent New Orleans a hell of a lot better than Negin?

Maybe all it is, is that he needs good progressive advisors, maybe then he'd be a decent Mayor - but we have to balance our critisims with what the hell he and the people in his city have been through, and the challenges in front of him.

And also, no one seems to bear in mind that Negin' got damn good reason to be paranoid.

[guidod]

112. I agree about the paranoia

sometimes it seems that his conception of reality goes in a lot of different directions every day. He seems, at times, to be a very special person and then off he goes. You could be very right about not having the proper advisers, perhaps they're overwhelmed as well.

I'm sitting here in Burbank, CA. I probably shouldn't be standing in judgement of a person that has gone through such a horrific experience as he has. The people of New Orleans put him in the position that he is in for a reason so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and support him when ever I can.

Stay strong New Orleans!

[bbinacan]

23. I agree,

Both comments were stupid. Especially when they were given.:eyes:

[MrSlayer]

24. Maybe Nagin is a huge Parliament Funkadelic fan.

Great band.

[alcibiades_mystery]

26. That's what I thought, too

Who got upset when George Clinton talked about chocalate cities and vanilla suburbs? Nobody. Y'know why? Cuz they all wanted their funk funked up, that's why. Geez. The original poster is a shrinking daisy. Gimme a break.

[renie408]

28. "Shrinking daisy"?? Really?

Holy Shit. I just told my husband that. He is laughing hysterically. I do not think I have EVER been described as 'shrinking' in my entire life.

I am a shrinking daisy because I think that making plantation references on MLK day might be a mistake?? Well, then, I guess that letting it all hang out is the way to go.

I think you are a fucking idiot if you can't see that the way it is being spun compromises the message behind the words. Now, shrinking daisy, report that.

[alcibiades_mystery]

36. Waaaah

The media's spinning our "message." Waaaah Waaaaah Waaaaah.

Here's a clue, daisy. There is no message. There is only assault and contact and attack and attack and attack. If you ain't got the stomach for it, head for the rear, dear.

[renie408]

72. It's violet, BTW

And this is pointless. You are so moronic as to believe that ANYTHING said against the GOP is good. What you do not seem to be able to muster enough reason to understand is that what gets YOU hot and wet doesn't really matter. You are already onboard. Tell me, oh god of war, what damage Hillary's 'attack' has done the other side? What good is an attack if all you manage to do is shoot yourself in the foot?

[renie408]

73. DU spasm dupe. n/t

[bettyellen]

33. oh totally, the chocolate thing was ok, but the punishing god thing

well that always sucks, but at least he said it was because we were in Iraq for no reason.
it was good to hear a different spin on why we are a wicked nation. fuck, i agree with that part.

[ariesgem]

38. That was my take on "Chocolate City".

Great song. Love the band.




Can we all just be "One Nation Under a Groove"?

[Cha]

80. How about "One Nation that

needs its Groove Back"?

[IA_Seth]

102. "...gettin down just foooor the funk of it" n/t

[bettyellen]

29. and i KNOW what your talking about!

i feel funny using that inflection, and i'm from the bronx.
i can't say it like she did without bobbing my head. it's just weird.

[renie408]

31. Yes. Trying to sound like a home girl

Ick. I just think it was a tactical error.

Look at the way it is being covered. The damn Daily Show was making her look like an idiot running tape of Scarlett's mammy right after the tape of Hillary.

[bettyellen]

32. she's sounded like me when i'm drunk and pissed off, lol...

i'm a little more fierce and latin sounding, and i DO bob my head.

[Demi_Babe]

34. What the hell is wrong with "plantation"

it's the GD truth!!!

[ProSense]

35. Hillary is cool. Repubs just upset. She's said it before, no one cared

She said live on CNN when Republicans were in the process of changing the ethics rules to protect DeLay:

AMERICAN MORNING

Aired November 18, 2004 - 07:00 ET

snip...

CLINTON: Well, what can I say? It's just so typical. I mean, they're running the House of Representatives like a fiefdom with Tom Delay, you know, in charge of the plantation. I think it's kind of a sad commentary. I don't think it's good for Democracy. I don't think it's good for the Republican Party. But again, I don't have a vote in the Republican caucus in the House; they'll decide what they want to do, but one would hope that they would not be so quick to change the rules when it affects their leader. They certainly wanted to apply the harshest of rules to Democratic leaders for so many years.


http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0411/18/ltm.01.html

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

37. Plantation was a kinder comparison than might be made. n/t

[Dr Fate]

40. I think both statements are fine. I'm sick of apologizing for being real.

What's wrong with having a "Chocolate city?" I think he meant a community influenced by black people & black culture, as NO has always been.

And the plantation comment? Good for her! Reid compared them to the Mob! BOTH are right!!

[Neil Lisst]

42. Nagin thought he was channeling MLK. And truthfully, if MLK had

said it, no one would have been shocked or surprised.

Nagin is a bad speaker, and he used workds that were not the best.

But let's not address the substance! He's right on that. No, let's join the cacophony of cocky conservatives crowing about it.

Jesus H. Christ, Bush says worse things every day.

[rucky]

48. Nagin needs some rest. n/t

[enough already]

54. I have no problem with anything Nagin said.

That guy is under duress that none of us can possibly imagine.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

65. I kinda got a kick out of what he said

about God being angry at the US for invading Iraq under false pretenses.

The right wing Falwell and Robertson routinely say such things, but they usually hatefully single out groups or individuals who are already under siege for no fault of their own, ie gays, liberals.

So I've kind of longed for someone to blame problems on Earth on God's wrath at misdeeds of the right wing or *.

[Hippo_Tron]

114. n/t

n/t

[rucky]

47. then she punctuated with a sassy "you know what I'm sayin'

I HATE it when white people try to "talk black" around black people.

The first thing that went through my mind when I heard the clip was "she's pandering"

[Apollo11]

50. Sorry Hillary - BAD metaphor!

I agree with Lady Lib - Hillary's comment doesn't make sense.

Members of Congress are not slaves who must fear for their lives if they speak out against the Administration. They are responsible for their own actions (or lack of actions).

Members of Congress have a choice. They must find the courage to stand up and fight back.

Message to Hillary from Al Gore:

"Democrats as well as Republicans in the Congress must share the blame for not taking sufficient action to protest and seek to prevent what they consider a grossly unconstitutional program.
<...> in the Congress as a whole, both House and Senate, the enhanced role of money in the re-election process, coupled with the sharply diminished role for reasoned deliberation and debate, has produced an atmosphere conducive to pervasive institutionalized corruption that some have fallen vulnerable to. The Abramoff scandal is but the tip of a giant iceberg threatening the integrity of our legislative branch of government.

"And it is the pitiful state of our legislative state which primarily explains the failure of our vaunted checks and balances to prevent the dangerous overreach by the executive branch now threatening a radical transformation of the American system. I call upon members of Congress in both parties to uphold your oath of office and defend the Constitution. Stop going along to get along. Start acting like the independent and co-equal branch of American government that you are supposed to be under the Constitution of our country."

President Al Gore, 1-16, 2006

www.algore.org :)

[IndianaGreen]

56. Newt Gingrich was the first to use "plantation" to refer to Democratic

Congresses.

Sorry, but you are missing the point!

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

66. Al Gore also talked about how Democrats have routinely been excluded

from meetings to draw up final bills, how amendments submitted by Democrats are often not allowed to be voted on and/or are rejected out of hand.

In addition, there is the fact that old Newt used the term to describe a Democratically controlled Congress.

At this point, I'd rather have our Democratic Party leaders err on the side of overstatement, or colorful metaphor.

It may be what it takes to get the attention of the MSM, and the people.

[tsuki]

51. Bush has his finger on the button, the RNC has filled their members

pockets with tainted cash, voting is no longer secure in the US, the pResident has been waging an illegal war of wiretapping Americans since he entered office, the average American is seeing his jobs disappear and standard of living decline, but the media elite's most important issue is that HILLARY SAID THE "P" WORD.

[IndianaGreen]

55. Newt Gingrich was the first to use "plantation" to refer to Democratic

Congress back in the early 1990s. The GOP outrage about Hillary's choice of words is as phony as their claims about WMDs in Iraq and Iran.

[sendero]

57. I just plain disagree..

.... about Hillary's comment.

(And I'm anything but a Hillary supporter)

I understand what Hillary was saying (in the house we're supposed to shut up and do what we're told) and I suspect her audience did also.

Don't let the faux outrage of the right wing noise machine strip you of your common sense.

[renie408]

78. I did understand the comments because I went out of my

way to find them in context. I agree 100% with what she said. I don't have a problem with how she said it. I will vote for her and fight like a madwoman to get her elected if she ends up being the candidate. But then, I am already SOLD, aren't I? I am not worried about how the people at the speech took it, they were already ONBOARD. But we are not getting enough Dems elected with the numbers we currently have, are we?

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe the way The Daily Show, MSNBC, FOX, CNN and most of the nightly news shows made her look like either an idiot or a racist will not have a negative effect. But I have a hard time thinking that those words could not have been chosen more carefully and still have gotten the same message across. Now we have NO message being reported, just reaction to the words. I am living in South Carolina and beating my head against a wall every day to try and convert the people around me to the Democratic Party. Plantation references on MLK day are not helping.

[ProSense]

84. But you see, the media was

already twisting what Gore said. In fact, Kerry (Sharpton and Conyers too) by coming out and agreeing with both Gore and Clinton, diffused the criticism (especially by giving examples; although these were related to Clinton's statement about Bush's being one of the worst administrations in history), because it shows that other Democrats hold the same views. Democratic unity drives the media crazy. What they need to continue this push to further their agenda to stir up outrage is a Democrat (of prominence) to disagree and support Republican criticism; thereby creating the impression that this is a bipartisan assault on Hillary or Gore.

[renie408]

88. I hope you are right

I hope like hell that instead of buying into the media hype, average people will see it for what it is. In the back of my mind I keep thinking that Hillary has got to be too savvy to have mistakenly made this move. Somehow, I am hoping that all the seeminly negative attention will end up working for her.

Right now, I have to go homeschool my kid. Since I am now a white supremacist according to the last post I read in this thread, I wonder if we should include whipping sheets into both useful and decorative night time attire in today's lesson?? Or maybe I should set up a unit on the most flammable way to construct a cross.

[sendero]

96. I understand your concern..

... but I'm not sure it is valid. Here's what I think. The RW base eats up the media bashing of Hillary and the Dems. They love it. But who cares, they are going to vote Republican no matter what.

The more strident and unreasonable the media piling on becomes, the more swing voters realize that there is nothing objective or fair about the coverage. I claim this has already happened. Bush's poll numbers in terms of approval are almost down to just his base. If people were really being swayed that effectively by Fox et al, he wouldn't be polling in the thirties because they are propping him up at full capacity.

The next thing that needs to happen it to create among the population the belief that Dems stand for something and will fight to get it. Some strong rhetoric is going to be required. With Bush** polling in the 30s, how many people are really going to be offended by a strident attack? No, they are not going to be offended, their feelings are going to be confirmed.

Let the news media spin away. Its not working, and all it is doing is killing their own credibility. The meme that the media is a pack of liars is also one that Americans are ready to hear.

[neverevergivein]

58. NOTHING is wrong!

New Orleans should be a black city, what's wrong with that? Who is really upset if black people get one freakin' city!!! And who here doesn't believe that we are totally in a "plantation" system of government. It's about time someone said it, and she should keep saying it until America wakes up from it's drunken stupor!

[McLuhan]

59. I support Hillary on this statement.

In my opinion she showed some intestinal fortitude by sticking it to the Administration and the Repuke House. She wasn't the first politician to use that term. The "Bastards" shot their mouths off before checking out the fact that another major Rethug had used the term in the '90's.

[lynne]

60. The sound you hear -

- is MLK rolling in his grave as the day bearing his name is used as a vehicle to divide the races instead of uniting them.

Certainly not what MLK's life was about and no way in which to honor the man.

[ProSense]

61. It wasn't a statement to divide and it didn't.

The majority of the public appears to support her comment. The audience applauded her comment. Sharpton and Conyers supported Hillary's comment, which was to point out the Republican Congress' dereliction and rubberstamp support of an administration that has no problem lying and cheating.

I think MLK probably would have accepted Jan. 16 as a good day to march and speak out against an oppressive government that sees nothing wrong with trampling on civil rights.


It's not the same as Bush using Veteran's Day to speak out against those who speak out. Imagine speaking out against freedom of speech on Veteran's Day.

[lynne]

104. I respectfully disagree -

- as the responses on this thread alone shows the division just at DU, where we are all of fairly similar mindset. I feel that both Nagin and Hillary made insensitive racially motivated remarks using MLK's day as a forum, something that I personally feel is disrespectful of MLK.

[ProSense]

105. But like this thread and the polls here at DU and out of the MSM

the overwhelming majority support her comment. I suspect a big chunk, not all, of the others support Bush.

[Snivi Yllom]

64. no question it was stupid by both

distracting and unnecessary

[ProSense]

68. Distracting from what? The media's and Republican's criticism of Gore? n/t

[Snivi Yllom]

74. that and more important issues

this will cost 2-3 newscycles.

[ProSense]

79. By that logic Gore giving his speech

and garnering criticism from the media is also distracting.

It doesn't work that way. The media could have used Gore's speech to advance the challenge to Bush to own up, but instead created a distraction by making the issue criticism of Gore.

[Bridget Burke]

67. Taking things out of context is idiotic.

Yes, the media do it all the time. So criticize the media.

Unless you WANT NOLA to go White. (I think Nagin meant Milk Chocolate. Cafe au Lait is even closer.)

[renie408]

75. If you had a dog that bit you every time you hand fed it...

and no matter how you tried, you could not resolve the problem and could not get rid of the dog...whose fault is it if you get bit handing it a snack? Not the dog's; yours. Yes, the media is notorious for taking comments out of context. Yes, for at least the past ten years the media has had an undeniable conservative bias. No, there is not much the Dems can do about that right now, is there? Given these existing factors, is it SMART to put on a 'sistah in the hood' accent and say that Congress is like a plantation and the Dems are the slaves and the GOP are the massah?

I am having a hard time thinking it was a smart analogy.

[Bridget Burke]

83. Yes, you're having a hard time!

Sorry.

[renie408]

87. I guess time will tell, eh?

I am wide open to being wrong. I dunno, the comments struck me as stupid and just inviting the exact kind of reaction that they are getting. But maybe it was a brilliant tactical move. Only time will tell.

[radio4progressives]

82. People.. the Reactionary Responses to The Remarks in Discussion are Sadly

Unfortunate.

It shows that people are still (in our own party) on a very subconscious level, largely clinging to deeply rooted white supremacists attitudes.

I know it's a stinging criticism to those who like to think they do not harbor bigotry deep within their souls, or to those who simply have never looked closely at race matters in terms of the core roots of racism, and that is why it continues to exist today, and why people are expressing their "outrage" at the comments expressed by Nagin and Hillary Clinton.

Yes, it was politically stupid and it can certainly be argued that it was also pandering - but on the miles long list of political blunders, politicians make rhetorically as a matter of ROUTINE, these remarks hardly merit the reaction it has generated among Liberals, so the question then begs to be asked (and answered)why the extreme reaction to statements that actually contain far MORE NUGGETS of TRUTH than the anything else that politicians ever talk about?

I can see freepers getting all freaked about this, that would be expected. But of all the things for progressives to be incensed about, to be outraged about, the comments in discussion are certainly not one of them, in fact neither HRC's comments nor Nagin's should not even be on the list of concerns what so ever.

Yet here it is, right here on DU.

This gives credibility to the scathing criticisms from African American Scholars who have written volumes on the subject of White Supremacy, pointing to Liberals as the group who is the most culpable and bears the lions share of responsibility for the socio and cultural institutionalization of White Supremacy to this day and this OP is a yet a mere indicator of how much truth there is to these criticisms.

edited spelling/etc

[renie408]

85. Wait...now I am a freeper and a closet white supremacist?

Are you really a psychiatrist, or do you just play one here on the DU? And is the air so thin up there where you reside that you have a tough time catching your breath? Down here where us unevolved neanderthals who are out of touch with our own race biases live must be different from your elevated level, so I was just wondering.

Pretend like I am typing really slowly here....I do not have a problem with the comments personally. I think they were not wise and the same point could have been made without the plantation analogy.


Maybe that makes me a white supremacist, I dunno. But if I am a closet white supremacist, I have close friends I need to let in on it. Since I babysit for them and their black kids and have for the past ten years, I guess it could be a problem. Gee, do you think this means my kids are closet white supremacists too? My son's black girlfriend should know that. And my daughter's best friend, too.

[radio4progressives]

89. You misunderstand. Let me try and put it differently..

Our entire culture is deeply rooted on the core principles of White Supremacy, so much so that it is institutionalized.

White Supremacy (and the fear of losing it), is deeply rooted in our collective psyches and it is the thing that triggers these reactionary responses about "issues" ranging from vigilantism against "illegal aliens" to the 'off the cuff' political remarks which has generated reactionary responses from the Right and the Corporate Media Fascists (who dominate and shape public perceptions)who are deeply wedded to the principles of white supremacy. This is why you are so outraged. It is because you have been told it is important to be outraged about these remarks, and clearly you haven't challenged the reasoning and logic for it. You are obediently reacting to the system which fosters white supremacy.

There are plenty of reasons to critisize both Nagin and Clinton, but these public remarks made yesterday, should not be included.

[renie408]

92. Oh, I thought that I was observing the reaction, noting that it was

predictable and therefore avoidable and saying that it was stupid to make the comments given that the reaction was predictable.

So, what you are saying is that in noting the media reaction to the comments, even though I did not personally find them offensive and I did understand her analogy, I am still 'obediently' reacting to the long standing white supremacist fostering system?

Wow. That is kind of hard to follow. But I guess I will have to take your word for it.

[radio4progressives]

94. See #93 on this question.

cheers..

[sherrys]

97. They make a bigger deal out of the words that the policies

Who cares...the importance is the whole context of a speech, not nitpicking certain words used. It is just the way the media tries to get people being outraged at the wrong thing, instead of being outraged at what is going on in this country.

What Hillary said was true, no one in the media touched on the issues her speech made. Just how dare her use the word plantation. They have always hated Hilary and always will.

[Aaaargh]

98. Bill said "Belly up to the bar" in Ireland! IRISH SLUR, IRISH SLUR!

- from Flap Over Clinton Remark Is Example of Synthetic Shock Syndrome, by John Leo, Huffington Post:

"...Even Bill Clinton provoked a case of SSS once, urging both sides in Northern Ireland's peace talks to "belly up to the bar," which was, of course, quickly denounced as a slur on Irish drinking habits."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-leo/flap-over-clinton-remark-_b_14001.html

WHY oh WHY would Clinton be so STUPID as to say such a thing in Ireland??? He should have KNOWN that it was incredibly boorish and insensitive!!! He was just ASKING for it to be used against him!!! He certainly should have KNOWN better, and it's ALL HIS OWN FAULT!!!

Right?

Obviously, in a milieu in which Repigs, media whores, and other interested persons are eager to create & promote phony 'flaps' concerning Democrats, there's really no prospect of 'avoiding' them by choosing words and actions with great care. Repig propagandists can play these games at their own pleasure, especially with the wording of any strong statement. Democrats must fully recognize that the corporate media are their enemies, and endeavor to speak over their heads to the public in defiance of the propaganda they peddle -- as President Clinton often managed successfully to do.

[guidod]

101. You're right on the mark with Nagin but

I think Hillary was right on with what she said. It was a great comparison, not racist, about the attitude of the House. Brack Obama agreed with her. Stop listening to these media idiots and their spinning definitions of everything.

[ScreamingWhisper]

107. Can't we all just be Neopolitan? n/t

[Catchawave]

109. Jon Stewart agreed :)

..repeat tonight, 8pm EST. (Sorry Keith, catch ya at midnight)

[Hippo_Tron]

115. My problem with Nagin's statement is that it divides Democrats

I live in New Orleans and had I been of voting age, I would have voted for Nagin the first time. I probably will end up voting for him the second time because I am not naive enough to believe that his Republican challenger will do a better job.

The thing that I absolutely can't stand about cities like New Orleans is that the politics is about race. It's like we have a white democratic party, a black democratic party, and a Republican party. Nagin's usage of black vs. white rhetoric offended lots of democrats who sympathized with the cause that he was promoting.

Bottom line, racial politics do nothing but help Republicans.

[geiger]

116. We should be talking about Al Gore's speech, not all this nonsense

Nagin deserves a nervous breakdown, and Hillary, on the other hand, for being strong, can say anything she wants because she can handle it.

[TankLV]

117. Hillary finally said something RIGHT and was SPOT ON!

I'm glad they seem to be finding their RIGHTEOUS voices now.

Why aren't you spouting off on the MILLIONS of atrocious things the REPUKES say and do ALL THE TIME instead of criticizing a proper statement?

[bee]

118. Thank you.

Jeebus. I was just reading through a couple of threads on this & was beginning to think that I was the only person who was appalled by that statement. What a totally absurd thing to say. Every Dem & especially every Liberal I know is completely disgusted.