"Keeping us safe", Guns and Wiretaps

[Pryderi]

Wouldn't rounding up all the guns also make us safer?

THE PRESIDENT: First of all, I -- right after September the 11th, I knew we were fighting a different kind of war. And so I asked people in my administration to analyze how best for me and our government to do the job people expect us to do, which is to detect and prevent a possible attack. That's what the American people want. We looked at the possible scenarios. And the people responsible for helping us protect and defend came forth with the current program, because it enables us to move faster and quicker. And that's important. We've got to be fast on our feet, quick to detect and prevent.


GORE: There are two problems with the Attorney General's effort to focus attention on the past instead of the present Administration's behavior. First, as others have thoroughly documented, his charges are factually wrong. Both before and after the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act was amended in 1995, the Clinton/Gore Administration complied fully and completely with the terms of the law.

Second, the Attorney General's attempt to cite a previous administration's activity as precedent for theirs - even though factually wrong - ironically demonstrates another reason why we must be so vigilant about their brazen disregard for the law. If unchecked, their behavior would serve as a precedent to encourage future presidents to claim these same powers, which many legal experts in both parties believe are clearly illegal.

The issue, simply put, is that for more than four years, the executive branch has been wiretapping many thousands of American citizens without warrants in direct contradiction of American law. It is clearly wrong and disrespectful to the American people to allow a close political associate of the president to be in charge of reviewing serious charges against him.

The country needs a full and independent investigation into the facts and legality of the present Administration's program.

[MrBenchley]

1. This administration wouldn't check to see if terrorists bought guns!

"Washington -- Dozens of terrorist suspects on federal watch lists were allowed to buy firearms legally in the United States last year, according to a congressional investigation that points up major vulnerabilities in federal gun laws.
People suspected of being members of terrorist groups are not automatically barred from legally buying a gun, and the new investigation, conducted by congressional officials at the Government Accountability Office, indicated that people with clear links to terrorist groups had regularly taken advantage of this gap.
...The legal debate over how gun records are used became particularly contentious months after the Sept. 11 attacks, when it was disclosed that the Justice Department and Attorney General John Ashcroft, a strong supporter of the Second Amendment, had blocked the FBI from using the gun-purchasing records to match against some 1,200 suspects who were detained as part of the investigation.
Ashcroft maintained that using the gun records in a criminal investigation would have violated the law that created the system for instant background gun checks, but Justice Department lawyers who reviewed the issue said they saw no such prohibition. "

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/03/08/MNGSRBLUFE1.DTL

And in every other way, they kiss the gun nuts' ass....but then they're the same people who support the melange of bigotry, hysteria and corruption that is the Republican party.

"Evidence is mounting that weak U.S. gun laws allow terrorists easy access to weapons. Yet when the issue is guns, the Bush Administration -- despite its early promises of a fight against terrorism, wherever it may lead -- has adopted a "hands off" policy. Why? Unfortunately for the health and safety of the American public, the answer is that Bush and Ashcroft care far more about the NRA than you and me.
Law enforcement officials have no doubt that for terrorists shopping for guns, U.S. shelves are always full. In a November 15, 2002 interview on the television news show NOW, retired Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) official Gerald Nunziato put it bluntly: "We have a major problem in this country with terrorism and firearms. Terrorists could come to this country and obtain firearms so easy....We sell anything in this country. It's very easy to obtain weapons here from gun shows, pawn shops, straw purchases, relatives, through newspaper ads." Last December, retired ATF resident agent in charge Daniel McBride told The Nation, "The United States has for many years been a warehouse, a shopping center, if you will, for firearms because of the ease of acquisition....We are a very easy place from which to obtain firearms for transshipment back home."
Under federal law, weapons like the military bred .50-caliber sniper rifle can be purchased just as easily as a hunting rifle or shotgun, and even more easily than a handgun. According to an eye-opening New Republic article published this month: "Many types of firearms can be purchased that easily in the United States. Few of them, however, would be as dangerous in the hands of terrorists. A .50-caliber sniper rifle, experts say, would be more than capable of shooting down an airliner as it took off or landed. Indeed, aimed properly, this weapon could be as effective as a shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missile, such as the one used by terrorists in an unsuccessful attack on an Israeli passenger plane in Kenya in November. But, whereas anti-aircraft missiles are highly restricted for civilians in the United States and decidedly difficult to obtain illegally, high-caliber guns....are available at your local gun shop, at gun shows, or even on the Web.""

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/03/01/21_Guns.html

[Pryderi]

2. Thanks for posting that information! Now we need a reporter with balls

to ask the president if rounding up the guns will also make us safer, and if it would be constitutional.

[MrBenchley]

4. I'd love to see somebody ask him

why he didn't push to renew the assault weapon ban, like he promised to do...

[yellowdogmi]

12. No I think we appeal to the gun nuts to join our side

Our fourth amendment rights have been violated.
our first amendment rights will be under attack with approval of the new patriot act.(disruptor status)
Appeal to the gun nuts that our second amendment rights are next.
Brings more people to the table on our side.
Does not allow them to use guns in any more elections.
What do you think?

[MrBenchley]

15. Yeah, we don't have enough white supremacists in the Democratic party

The gun nuts hate blacks, gays, Jews, and uppity women as much as they love them guns.

[benEzra]

10. Oh look, another advocate of W's secret watch lists...

Washington -- Dozens of terrorist suspects on federal watch lists were allowed to buy firearms legally in the United States last year, according to a congressional investigation that points up major vulnerabilities in federal gun laws.
People suspected of being members of terrorist groups are not automatically barred from legally buying a gun, and the new investigation, conducted by congressional officials at the Government Accountability Office, indicated that people with clear links to terrorist groups had regularly taken advantage of this gap.

So you don't have a problem with W's secret watch lists, eh? Terrah! Terrah!

Senator Edward Kennedy was one of those people with "clear links to terrorist groups," according to the administration. Luckily for him, he was well known and had the power to clear his name. Unlike the other people who get put on the list because they attended the wrong mosque once ten years ago, because some freeper saw them praying toward Mecca, or because they are one of the thousand Americans with the same name as someone on the no-fly list...

A .50-caliber sniper rifle, experts say, would be more than capable of shooting down an airliner as it took off or landed. Indeed, aimed properly, this weapon could be as effective as a shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missile, such as the one used by terrorists in an unsuccessful attack on an Israeli passenger plane in Kenya in November. But, whereas anti-aircraft missiles are highly restricted for civilians in the United States and decidedly difficult to obtain illegally, high-caliber guns....are available at your local gun shop, at gun shows, or even on the Web.

LOL! That's pretty funny. They forgot to mention that missiles steer themselves to the target and have explosive warheads...

[MrBenchley]

14. Oh, look, more gun loon hooey.....

"Senator Edward Kennedy was one of those people with "clear links to terrorist groups," according to the administration."
And do you think he was farting arouynd in a gun show, ben?

But it's hilarious to see you trying to pimp for 50 caliber public menaces.

[benEzra]

16. Those are the lists the article is talking about...

not terror suspects, just people on the no-fly list. Senator Kennedy being an example of how easy it is to accidentally get put on one.

But it's hilarious to see you trying to pimp for 50 caliber public menaces.

Ever tried to shoot skeet with a scoped .22?

There are reasons why the military uses guided explosive munitions for attacking flying aircraft, and NOT precision rifles...

I don't own a .50 caliber precision rifle, or even a .30 caliber precision rifle like an M24, so I don't have a dog in that particular fight. But the contention that someone could shoot down an airliner with a single shot from a 30+ pound precision rifle that can't even be AIMED at a flying aircraft (not enough adjustment in the scope to lead such a fast-moving target, you'd have to ignore the sights and use the Force), by putting a half-inch hole in some critical part that you magically hit, has to be one of the most ludicrous gun-related claims I've ever heard.

[MrBenchley]

17. LOL!

"But the contention that someone could shoot down an airliner with a single shot from a 30+ pound precision rifle"
Which no one but the trigger happy ever make. The actual contention is that airliners on the ground, chemical reactors, nuclear reactors, propane storage tanks, locomotives hauling toxic waste, etc., are vulnerable to this weapon. But then you already knew that.

You would think an honest person would ask himself why EVERY gun rights argument depends on dishonesty, distortion and deception.

[benEzra]

18. Senator Feinstein sez they can...

FEINSTEIN SEEKS TOUGHER REGULATION OF RIFLE
05/01/05 12:40 PDT

By Bay City New Service http://cbs5.com/localwire/localfsnews/bcn/2005/05/01/n/HeadlineNews/SNIPER-RIFLE/resources_bcn_html

"For instance, a sniper atop the Washington Monument (with a .50-caliber rifle) could target anybody or anything within a four-mile radius, including the White House, the Capitol, every building on or around the Mall, and aircraft flying in and out of Reagan National Airport," Feinstein said in a statement.

Regulation of .50 Caliber Sniper Rifles

http://www.psr.org/home.cfm?id=pressroom21

There is little doubt that .50 caliber heavy sniper rifles are powerful weapons of war - the U.S. Marines used these weapons to destroy Iraqi armored vehicles from 1,750 yards away during the Gulf War . The combination of range, accuracy, and power about which gun manufacturers boast, is cause for grave concern. Their potential for assassination is readily apparent, but they are also capable of devastating attacks on infrastructure. They have the potential to shoot down both commercial and private aircrafts, helicopters and disable other transportation.

Text of speech given by United States Senator Edward M. Kennedy
Winner of the 2005 Abraham Lincoln Award

Monday, November 7, 2005

I know the Council is doing what it can to draw attention to the serious threat posed by .50 caliber weapons which are particularly dangerous in the hands of terrorists. These rifles can, and do, shoot down airplanes and destroy armored vehicles. The bullets can penetrate several inches of steel. In fact, they've been called the "ideal tools for terrorists."

http://www.gunguys.com/?cat=48

Of course the gun they’re talking about is the .50 caliber sniper rifle, which we know about from our friends at .50 caliber terror. It’s a military grade weapon that can pierce through armored vehicles at range, and take out planes during takeoff and landing, and yet it’s freely available to almost anyone in the United States.

Of course, you are quite right that the concept of shooting down an airliner on approach or taking off is horse puckey, though.

[MrBenchley]

19. They're a public menace that ought to be banned from the market.....

and that IS a fact.

By the way, take off and landing is also a time when the planes ARE vulnerable, since they are moving slowly. But I guess you knew that.

[benEzra]

20. 110+ knots is still too fast...

By the way, take off and landing is also a time when the planes ARE vulnerable, since they are moving slowly. But I guess you knew that.

110 to 150 knots is WAY too fast to hit with a rifle; IIRC you'd have to lead the target by 80 to 300 feet, meaning you wouldn't even see the plane in your scope (if you aimed at the plane, the bullet would pass behind it).

You have to lead even a slow-moving target, like a deer walking at 3 mph. Once you get over 25-50 mph, forget it, even for shots of only a few hundred feet.

[MrBenchley]

21. Says you....

and of course, so few planes taxi at that speed....

[benEzra]

22. Planes taxi in the air?

Putting a 0.5-inch hole in a slowly taxiing or parked airplane is feasible, assuming the shooter could get a shot.

Breaking an engine of a parked or slowly taxiing airplane is feasible. Blowing a tire is feasible.

A very, very lucky shot might even wound or kill a person on board (which is not caliber dependent). Maybe two people if the shooter is Matthew Quigley...

But shooting down airplanes with a scoped rifle, even airplanes on approach, is sheer fantasy. So, for that matter, is blowing them up Hollywood-style with a bullet. Which is why DHS/TSA doesn't consider them as a particularly credible threat, prohibitionist rhetoric to the contrary. Raufoss rounds are restricted, and that's as far as it needs to go.

The real reason for the .50 caliber rifle issue isn't Terrah, or Crime. It's an attempt to shatter the compromise embodied in the National Firearms Act of 1934, that delineates anything over .50 caliber as a restricted (mostly military/LEO) weapon, just like automatic weapons, explosives, sound suppressed firearms, and howitzers, and any non-automatic civilian firearm of .50 caliber or less as suitable for civilian ownership if it meets the other criteria of the NFA. The only exceptions are a few hunting guns, like .73 caliber shotguns and .70 caliber big-game hunting rifles.

The prohibitionist lobby wants to shatter that compromise and move the civilian/military line down as far as they can. The VPC anti-.50 materials make it abundantly clear that they also want to ban .30-caliber precision rifles, and they specifically mention .338 Lapua. So the .50 hysteria is a means to an end, IMHO.

[MrBenchley]

23. Telling that you have to distort what's said to have any point at all....

"The real reason for the .50 caliber rifle issue isn't Terrah, or Crime."
Lo, the poor gun loon....everybody from the Kansas City Chiefs to Ann Landers is out to get him. Good thing he's got stalwart men of principle like dick Cheney and Tom Delay to speak up for him (snicker)

[RufusEarl]

3. Rouge regime

that's what happens when you have one party running our government. He Bush has his Attorney General, his Congress & Senate and soon will have his Supreme Court. Add to this he has stacked ever department within the federal government with his people, and they all read from the same talking points.

Attorney General: Will not call for special prosecutor
Congress: Will not hold real investigations into Bush's wrong doing
Supreme Court: Will rule in the Executive Branch favor

VP Gore made this statement, "If left unchecked it will open the door for future administrations to do the same (Spy unchecked on Americans) I fear if left unchecked their want be any future administrations, just King George.

[-..__...]

5. What would Bush and the anti-rkba types do if...

they didn't have 9/11 to expolit and scare the sheeple with?

"Habib! Did you get the Big Nickel today?"

"Yes, Abdullah! Allah has blessed us with many ads today! I see
SEVERAL Smith & Wesson revolvers for sale!"

"Oh, Habib! We cannot buy those- we are boycotting S&W, remember!"



"May Allah forgive my transgression!"

"Look instead for some .50 anti-tank rifles!"



"Here is a Ruger 10/22 in good shape."

"How much?"

"$75 with a case"

"Allah will be pleased!"

[MrBenchley]

6. Jeeze, Chimpy is the gun nuts' favorite, D_S

and he and AshKKKroft wouldn't even let the FBI check to see if terrorists had bought those little metal phalluses.

And speaking of sheeple, there's nobody more braindead than gun owners.

[-..__...]

7. Thank you...

for sharing your little ray of sunshine with us.

:eyes:

"Jeeze, Chimpy is the gun nuts' favorite, D_S

and he and AshKKKroft wouldn't even let the FBI check to see if terrorists had bought those little metal phalluses.

And speaking of sheeple, there's nobody more braindead than gun owners".

[MrBenchley]

8. I'm always happy to piss on the gun lobby's lies....

and expose them as such, D_S....

"You all should be just as proud of your involvement in the 2000 election, because if it were not for your active involvement, it is safe to say that my brother would not have been elected President of the United States.
--Jeb Bush, to gun loonies.

http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/Speeches.aspx?ID=30

"Published on Thursday, May 4, 2000 in the Washington Post
The National Rifle Association's second-ranking officer boasted at a closed meeting of NRA members earlier this year that if Republican nominee George W. Bush wins in November, "we'll have . . . a president where we work out of their office."
First Vice President Kayne Robinson, who is in line to succeed NRA President Charlton Heston, added that the NRA enjoys "unbelievably friendly relations" with the Texas governor. "

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/050400-01.htm

But then, RKBA types have such NICE playmates.

[OneBlueSky]

9. every Bush mention of 9/11 infuriates me . . .

given the fact that evidence increasingly shows that BushCo was, if not the moving force, at least a facilitator of the attacks . . . and they sure have served the dictatorship well in the ensuing years . . .

[benEzra]

11. Illegal wiretaps don't make us safer at all...

and in the long run, I and my children and descendants are in a lot more danger from having the Bill of Rights abrogated over the next 50 or 100 years than we are likely to be injured by a terrorist...too bad the freepers don't get that...

[Nutmegger]

13. SEPTEMBER 11TH!!! TERRORISTS!!! CLINTON!!! WIRETAPS!!! SEPTEMBER 11TH!!!

IRAQ!!!! FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY!!!!! SEPTEMBER 11TH!!! WIRETAPS!!! TIME OF WAR!!!! SEPTEMBER 11TH!!!


There, does everybody feel better now?

[melvinator2k0]

24. I do

all Bush's fault