IS IT FINALLY TIME FOR CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE?

[Jeffersons Ghost]

I know it may be too long for people with tiny attention spans but this short essay by Henry David Thoreau is defiantly worth reading if you've never read it before. For those of you who don't know, he wrote it from jail. He was imprisoned for his civil and non-violent actions against a government he could no longer support in good conscience.

It begins:

I HEARTILY ACCEPT the motto,—"That government is best which governs least";(1) and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe,—"That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have. Government is at best but an expedient; but most governments are usually, and all governments are sometimes, inexpedient. The objections which have been brought against a standing army, and they are many and weighty, and deserve to prevail, may also at last be brought against a standing government. The standing army is only an arm of the standing government. The government itself, which is only the mode which the people have chosen to execute their will, is equally liable to be abused and perverted before the people can act through it. Witness the present Mexican war,(2) the work of comparatively a few individuals using the standing government as their tool; for, in the outset, the people would not have consented to this measure.

here's the link: http://eserver.org/thoreau/civil1.html

[villager]

1. "Finally?" A rhetorical question, I take it...

It was time when the oligarchs blatantly stole the 2000 election in front of the nation's eyes...

[Jeffersons Ghost]

3. it's overdue!!!

Real sit-in style protests and marches. I'm sick of a gutless America that only get fatter while sitting in front of the TV. In the 60's and 70's we actually DID something. I'd march alone if I thought it would in any way be effective. What's wrong with these people? Do they think a tyrannical party will just step aside because they wrote 3 letters?

[SteppingRazor]

6. Yes, but...

Would widespread protests do any more good than writing three letters? Somehow, I don't think this administration would give a rat's ass.

[Posteritatis]

19. It's a question of endurance

A lot of protests these days are one-shot marches that let people yell and feel good for a day or so, and then they go back to work or (more likely) school for awhile.

I'd be more impressed by five thousand people keeping up a demonstration for a month than I would by one million people doing it for a day. One-day million-man marches are one thing; what happened in Kiev last winter is something entirely different, and something which hasn't been attempted in the US in awhile.

Show some ability to plan, organize, and keep pressure up, rather than simply muster a lot of bodies in one place for a brief period. If folks can show themselves as something more than simply The Rabble, you'll at least start turning heads among the electorate, even if the government will remain carefully insulated from it.

Either way, even trivial forms of action are certainly more productive than the growing tendency of folks to park on their hands and moan about how everything is doomed, doomed, doomed. That's a self-fulfilling prophecy, and there's always other things people can try to do.

[Comadreja]

43. The Kievans were probably unemployed

As the Delarartion says, most people (who pretty much ignore politics) have to be reduced almost to the point of having nothing to lose to shake their apathy.
Americans are co-opted even if they oppose Chimpsco. How many moderates and liberals still drive SUV's and shop at Wal-Mart?

[Posteritatis]

48. Way to generalize a few hundred thousand people... (n/t)

[villager]

7. yes -- don't know if large numbers will be willing to "risk" CD

...unless they're really really hungry, at this point...

and/or maybe if gas prices hit $5.00 a gallon...

[Jeffersons Ghost]

18. do you remember this song?

Today is the ANNIVERSARY OF ROSA PARKS REFUSING TO GIVE UP HER SEAT!! LISTEN TO THIS AT NPR.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4193803

It gives a choice of audio devices... the major two free online audio systems work. it's a good interview by TAVIS my man on Public TV.

Screw waiting for someone else to do something! Would anyone like to join in on a few verses of this sung by 10 thousand in DC?

G C G C G

We shall overcome. We shall overcome,

G G/F# Em D7

We shall overcome someday.

G D G C Bm Em

Oh, deep in my heart, I do believe

G C G D G

We shall overcome someday.



We are not afraid, We are not afraid,

We are not afraid someday.

Oh, deep in my heart, I do believe

We are not afraid someday.



We are not alone, We are not alone,

We are not alone someday.

Oh, deep in my heart, I do believe

We are not alone someday.



We'll walk hand in hand, We'll walk hand in hand,

We'll walk hand in hand someday.

Oh, deep in my heart, I do believe

We'll walk hand in hand someday.



Everyone together, Everyone together,

Everyone together someday.

Oh, deep in my heart, I do believe

Everyone together someday.



We shall all be free, We shall all be free,

We shall all be free someday.

Oh, deep in my heart, I do believe

We shall all be free someday.

[grasswire]

2. thank you very much

I have several essays and quotes that discuss this question, and I wish there was a place on DU where this question could be contemplated without disappearing into oblivion. It should be pressing on the minds of all, now that Gore has named the evil publicly.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

4. DO WHAT????

Which mother-freeping Nazi said that? I mostly watch Public TV the last bastion of truth... I read Gore's speech the other day... It brought tears to my eyes. What a patriot, I thought to myself.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

59. While I'm reviewing this board. grasswire

I see i misread your post earlier, grasswire... I thought you had written "Gore WAS named the evil" but instead you wrote "Gore has named the evil." I most humbly apologize and I know it's no excuse but my eyes grow dimmer with each passing year. In other words, time for new glasses! It sounded so typically Republican, I bet some freeping fool DID call him that somewhere.

[SteppingRazor]

5. On Civil Disobedience is a fine essay, but...

I have to disagree with large parts of it . The central premise, "That government is best which governs not at all," certainly rings hollow. I cannot imagine the horror of a world with no governments, and consequently, little or no laws. While some people would be willing to do what is right simply on principle, enough of them would ignore ethics that eventually the world would be governed by the creed "Might makes right."

There's also this line -- "this government never of itself furthered any enterprise, but by the alacrity with which it got out of its way," which suggests that government regulation of enterprise (i.e. business) is a foolish notion, something I cannot possibly agree with.

At the same time, I can dig things like this: " It is not a man's duty, as a matter of course, to devote himself to the eradication of any, even the most enormous wrong; he may still properly have other concerns to engage him; but it is his duty, at least, to wash his hands of it, and, if he gives it no thought longer, not to give it practically his support. If I devote myself to other pursuits and contemplations, I must first see, at least, that I do not pursue them sitting upon another man's shoulders."


Also, for the record, Thoreau went to jail because he wouldn't pay his taxes. Maybe civil disobedience should start there? Lemme know how it goes. You're damned brave if you do it. Me, I don't like long spells in prison. I've been in for a couple of brief ones, and they were enough to make me realize at least that much.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

8. I agree...

Certain elements in this essay are Utopian but Plato, like HDT, were so mentally evolved that they almost represented a higher life form. Individuals like them are no different than thieves or liars. A thief believes everyone steals sometimes and a liar is quickest to accuse another of lying. These beliefs justify their beastly actions. HDT and Plato expected that everyone had a shred of decency innate within their character and could evolve like them. If we expect less than rising above our animal natures, we will most assuredly attain less than we expect. By this, I mean, if we set high personal standards we may not make it to the top but we ascend much higher mentally than if we had set lower standards.

As to the Machiavellian notion, "Might makes right," welcome to Amerika... What do you think we have now?

As to HDT's taxes: He DID pay the original taxes to build that bridge and refused to pay the toll tax to cross it, since he'd already paid!

[SteppingRazor]

9. This is where I differ from people like HDT...

I like to think I'm a pretty ethical person -- granted, my ethics may not match up to the larger society's 100% of the time -- but as for everyone else, I think the vast majority of people are mean, dumb, or mean-dumb. I'm certainly not for some father-knows-best state that dictates morality, but without some sort of higher law to set standards, I think the world would look more like something out of Mad Max than something out of Lost Horizon.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

13. I hope you see it

When you say "my ethics may not match up to the larger society's 100% of the time," I believe you either overestimate the ethics of society or underestimate your character, likely the later. Even with your jail record, I'd rather be you than the average person in "larger society." The average person in my experience believes themselves to be ethical beyond reproach, while constantly giving in to greed, jealousy and many other feelings that reflect their lower animal nature. They will never improve and, in fact, they degrade every day. It's as Einstein said, "the only constant in the universe is change." Once we accept that notion, it logically follows that in the face of unavoidable change, our only choice is whether we change for the better or the worse.

The first and most difficult step is identifying the problem and accepting the idea that your ethics don't always measure up with larger society. The next step is easier because much of western society is greed-driven, which is obviously an animalistic trait. As I say, they don't admit or realize the error of that approach so they're stuck! You, on the other hand, accept that you can improve. That realization, my friend, is the basis of wisdom. It is as if that innate spark of Divinity within you finally begins to illuminate deeper truths than the average person dares to ponder.

It's a good beginning. I feel you're on the right path.

[SteppingRazor]

14. Wow! Wasn't expecting such a philosophical response...

What I meant by that statement -- that my ethics don't match society's, necessarily -- is that I often think that what is considered "right" in our society often is not.

As for the jail record, one time was a DUI, which I strongly regret. The other two were protest related, which I do not regret. I've never been in for longer than 40 hours at a time, but even that is WAY too much -- prison really, really sucks. And I've never been to state or fed, just county. But even that is god-awful. The mind-numbing boredom is the worst part. I can't imagine what it must be like to do absolutely nothing for weeks, months, or -- God help you -- years on end.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

23. I don't know what "protest" you were in...

But it wasn't a real big one... All the people I talked to that did a few hours jail back in the early days said they weren't bored. Those jails were packed with protesters. They were hooting, singing and raising hell, till they got out... I DO want to thank you for telling everyone about your unique experience. That should help start some peaceful assembly. What blows my mind is that while they didn't arrest the really young HS kids like me, the older protesters had no fear of a little hell raising in jail in this country. Did you protest in the US?

[SteppingRazor]

45. The 40 hours was for the other thing...

As for the protests, I've been picked twice. Once in Miami during the Nov. 2003 FTAA protest, and once in D.C. in february of 2003 over the Iraq War.

And contrary to what you say, there were thousands at the former, and hundreds of thousands at the latter. Certainly, those experiences were much different than sitting locked up alone for 40 hours. First, they were much shorter, and second, you had a group of like-minded souls to go through the experience with. I think maybe my post might have confused you, since I was tlaking about two separate things.

Although, for the record, I wasn't even there to protest at the FTAA. I attended with a group of protestors and was covering the event and that specific group for a newspaper. The Miami police, however, were unsympathetic.

[MrBenchley]

52. Good post

and you made some very good points.

[OneBlueSky]

10. the idea of civil disobedience is much more problemmatic today . . .

when the government can "disappear" you at their whim . . .

[0007]

11. They can't take us all out...if you won't give your life for a cause

there are many that will.


This guy wasn't scared

[OneBlueSky]

15. not saying it can't/shouldn't be done . . .

just that it's a different world than it was when we were protesting in the 60s . . . at least then they kept track of who they arrested and where they put them . . . BushCo can grab you and never even admit it, much less tell your family if you've been arrested or where you're being held . . . this is not your father's America . . .

[Jeffersons Ghost]

20. do you think...

Guantanamo Bay Gulag can hold 10,000? Yeah, they can "disappear" a few dissidents but when the numbers get big, there little slight-of-hand magic gets weak and silly.

[zann725]

12. Overdue? An understatement, no doubt.

[JeffR]

16. I'd only advocate civil disobedience if...

The Reich Wing impeached a Democratic president, stole two elections, launched an illegal invasion of a sovereign country on motives to transparently fake that...

Oh, never mind.

:crazy:

[Comadreja]

44. The whole world marched against Bush

But it quickly became obvious that these NeoCons are indifferent to anything but money and power.
Now it even looks like the rest of the G8 is coming around to their side on Iran.
I've done plenty of indiviual action such as parking by the highway with signs and secret pamphleting of cars. I thought the students in this college town would be the best bet to vote in some democratic change. They mostly ignored the whole thing, wrapped up in their own lives as usual.
I am over 50 and have no kids. Why should I put myself in the firing line for these future Homer Simpsons?

[toymachines]

17. Great Essay on Civil Disobedience

For some reason I don't want to be sitting in jail, so I am not following his footsteps. I do as much civil dis. as i can without getting caught. I fight for freedom, I sure as hell don't want my own freedom to be radically stripped from me. Fuckin fascists.

[Lone_Wolf]

21. Might be the only way... we are quickly running out of options...

n/t

[Jeffersons Ghost]

22. you know....

Lone wolf, it was always the only way... It was the only way long before Gandhi was born... It was the only way when Rosa Parks decided defiantly to keep her seat on the bus... It's funny that most people around here lack the courage of a teen-age seamstress. Everyone wants something for nothing and waits for someone else to act while they sit at home and cheer. That very attitude is what got us in this mess. As long as the attitude continues we can expect things to only get worse. We need not attack an outer political demon, until we can deal with our inner demons of fear and complacency.

[raccoon]

24. If you are referring to Rosa Parks as a "teenage seamstress,"

she was hardly a teenager. She was born in 1913, which would make her 42 when she refused to give up her bus seat.

But I agree with what you're saying.

Edited to add 2nd paragraph.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

42. you absolutely right racoon

Thanks for your diplomatic correction... Looks like I better study up on a great woman before posting comments about her.

[Neil Lisst]

25. Jefferson's Ghost, what's the deal with always urging extreme action?

Forget Thoreau. I love his writings and what he stood for, but this is 2006. We have enough problems on our side without people proposing illegalities to "make a statement."

Things that are illegal are impractical because they don't get us anywhere we need to be. You could spend every day doing things that are legal and useful, 18 hours a day, and never run out of things to do.

We live in a representative democracy. The answer to our problems is getting more people registered, getting them to vote, and making sure those votes are properly counted.

We have a country to run here, and the theatre of the absurd and/or illegal won't get us there. I reject and rebuke all statements urging illegality, and it's not helping DU by suggesting it is an option.

You can't get the moral highground by engaging in vandalism, trespass, or other criminal acts. There was a time when those things might have held some purpose, but that time has long since passed.

Why does the mundane work of getting good people elected escape your notice? Why do you always urge some extreme, in-your-face, or illegal action? They don't work, they engender bad press, and they discolor the hard efforts of hundreds of thousands of us.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

26. first thing Mr Neil

Have you ever heard of the right to peaceful assembly? Oh here it is Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

As for doing other stuff, check out this site... It's ALL my copy and it was WAY out of date when I signed up with my local party.... I'm still looking for help to keep it updated, can we red-staters down here count on your online graphics help? http://www.tuscaloosademocrats.org/

Also, How many chapters of DFA did you instigate last week? I only did four... got sick an then there was that long meeting with the State chair to elect Seigelman as gov... by the way Neil... nice cartoon today

[Neil Lisst]

27. I'm glad for all your positive efforts and applaud them, JG.

But sometimes you segue from some long dead author to today, and it simply doesn't work.

The title is about civil disobedience, not let's get more grassroots.

I'm troubled by the recurring theme, and frankly, I'm trying to keep you off lists you don't want to be on. Do you have any idea how many rightwingers who operate under government auspices cruise this site looking for reasons and people to target?

[Jeffersons Ghost]

28. thanks neil

But you might be too late to help me... I've been emailing stuff with all kinds of predator triggers in it for quite a while... Some even went to my old pal in England... Boy does she hate Blair and his buddy in the US of cource... I just miss the days when we REALLY did something about our folks dying in a useless war for nothing but profit to the top 3% of America. I swear I'd do it alone and go to jail if it would help... If I come up missing you guys will know why anyway... I'm no yippy, it will be for promoting Amendment 1 and using my freedom of speech.

[Neil Lisst]

31. I've always been a straight arrow on these issues.

I believe we can work hard while staying inbounds, and that's what I try to do.

My commentaries, both here and in our cartoon, are using free speech to express ideas designed to effect change and reinforce thoughts I think are needed.

I believe in action, too, but even guerilla theatre needs to stay inside legal bounds, IMO.

You can't go wrong by doing right.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

32. we're together on that one neil

I've never proposed unlawful acts and never will... What I want is to get the ball rolling on some good old fashioned Peaceful assembly Amendment 1 style by spring... Those elections are coming fast... I hope EVERYONE is working harder than ever toward getting these Nazis out... we gotta suffer through these Supreme Court appointments for a while but we can get the others out IF WE WORK HARD!

Hey Neil, do you mind giving my Veterans Benefits board at DU a kick or two? You'll see it... it's the one with the freeped up headline... you'll get used to those, I promise... Plato said... awww never mind... My other board is a bit closer to my heart. I just found out about it today when I called the VA to see why my meds didn't get mailed. The lady said we had to wait so long these days to talk o someone because of big funding cutbacks and I hit the roof... I guess that's what we get if a draft-dodger leads us during war time. If you want to meet a future war protester, look under a helmet.

[Neil Lisst]

33. You know how I feel about Plato. I like regular clay better.

Plato is that doughy stuff that breaks apart and gets all over the carpet, right? ;)

[Jeffersons Ghost]

35. what do you think of pluto....

I mean as a candidate? I'd vote for Pluto against a repuke, even if Monica was his running mate... hmmm Monica as Pluto's mate... I like it!

[Neil Lisst]

34. You know how I feel about Plato. I like regular clay better.

Plato is that doughy stuff that breaks apart and gets all over the carpet, right? ;)

[Jeffersons Ghost]

46. I just want to thank you, Neil

Not only for your great cartoons but also for giving me a chance to clarify my position on unlawful acts before this board got out of hand. On deep religious and philosophical levels, I believe in attacking war with peace, evil with good and lies with truth.

[PATRICK]

29. Ring the Super Bowl

That is the only national event where everyone is paying attention. Of course the coverage will be angry
and miffed, muffled and muzzled.

For once, control the presentation carefully and even make our own "ads" for the occasion, replayed on portable screens around the crowds.

Instead what protesters will do. Bus to other freezing areas in February with fenced in, media ignored, dismissed, critiqued protests where the only people paying attention will be bystanders, the police and NSA surveillance cameras. (Anyone stop to think how many protests were scanned overhead squandering the best technology available to Bush political hack jobs?)

[AngryAmish]

30. It is time to mercilessly crush our oppressors

It is time to cleanse our nation of republican scum and shave the heads of the collaborators.

[1Pangean]

36. Civil Disobedience May not be enough!

The problem with civil disobedience is that it is CIVIL which is all nice and good if the other side is civil, too. But I recently had a discussion with my best friend who is an ardent Bush supporter and his comment about civil disobedience was that we should remember that "they" (meaning republicans)have all the guns since Democrats in general favor gun control. At the time we both had a good chuckle about this and I agreed that yes, Republicans are more likely (though not exclusively) to be gun owners.

In thinking about his comment, though, and considering where this country is going, he made a very cogent point. When an adversary is disarmed, it is easier to subdue him when you, yourself are packing.

When you think about it, while there was a point to the second amendment, never did the founders consider that an armed faction (even if it is somewhat less than 1/2 the country) could align WITH the government to subvert the constitution. While it was intended as a check on untrammelled power (government vs the people), when the people themselves are divided and part of that divided politic is disarmed, the ultimate argument is lost! After all, what is an armed conflict but the continuation of an argument with weapons to the ultimate extreme.

Therefore, it stands to reason, in order to prevent the final overthrow of the constitutional order, the unarmed faction MUST arm itself.

The Democratic party as a whole, must immediately embrace the second amendment and recommend that its members join the NRA and arm themselves. Only in this way can peaceful arguments be preserved.

At least this way, when the government finally comes for YOU, it will have to think twice about it and may, instead decide to discuss with you (or your representatives) what your grievances are since there will be a price to pay for arbitrary action.

Think about it!!!

[bread_and_roses]

38. Armed resistance? What absolute and utter nonsense.

Ever hear of NON-VIOLENT Civil Disobediance? Ghandi? Martin Luther King?

Such fantasies would be hilarious if they wern't so pathetic. This is the real world out here, not a video game.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

41. I agree

Taking up arms will weaken and degrade us, making our cause no better than the evil empire we fight against. I say combat evil with it's NO. 1 adversary, GOOD!

[MrBenchley]

51. Why not join the Republican party outright?

"The Democratic party as a whole, must immediately embrace the second amendment"
By which you mean the far right wing's dishonest interpretation of it...

[Jeffersons Ghost]

71. I LIKE

ALL our amendments left intact.... I'm an equal amendment employer, just like bushco is a equal opportunity enslaver.

[TheBaldyMan]

37. Its always time for civil disobedience

that is until every government starts doing its job. It is always the time for direct action be it recycling your junk, commumity work or political activism.

[bread_and_roses]

39. Why didn't Al Gore call for us to take to the streets in non-violent

protest? I was holding my breath almost, at the end; hoping he'd call for a General Strike to preserve our Democracy - or at least a day of massive protest. I know, I know, wishful thinking - but why not? Democracy isn't worth it? The crimes of this Administration don't warrant it? One thing the MSM couldn't ignore is millions of citizens marching. They can ignore, or treat as business as usual everything else.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

40. OUR HEARTS WERE CALLING

Isn't that enough? Gore knew it and we know it too... do we have to be told what to do like Reich-Wing goose-steppers? did you want gore to risk his brilliant message by asking for action we might not take? it would make him a laughing stock, if he called for protest and nothing happened.

[bread_and_roses]

47. Hearts are not enough. We need feet.

And no, I don't thinkd that "we" (and I know not I) "have to be told what to do like Reich-Wing goose-steppers."

Gore's is a powerful voice, and he delivered a powerful indictment. A call to action to the citizens of this country would be a powerful mobilizer. If Gore's speech is not to fall into a vacum, it must be followed by action - both by the Congress and the people.

[alcibiades_mystery]

49. IS IT FINALLY TIME FOR ANOTHER IS IT FINALLY TIME POST????

How many "IS IT FINALLY TIME FOR CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE???" posts can there be? A hundred? A thousand? At what point do they become comical?

[NVMojo]

50. Jefferson's Ghost, great post and link! KICK!!!!

[Jeffersons Ghost]

53. How quaintly republican your post appears alcibiades_mystery

While I doubt your a real honest-to-god freeper, your post reflects their style of attack. I mean it's like a microcosm of the Hill where the repuke leadership makes all these personal remarks instead of dealing with the issues at hand... It's kinda like them calling our guys commies to change the public focus from their dirty little scandal.

[alcibiades_mystery]

54. And weirdly enough, your post is guilty of the exact same thing

Curious, that.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

55. alcibiades_mystery, if that was your real criticism of my board:

Why didn't your opening post focus on the issue? This now reminds me of the Kerry debates (I only mention one name because only Kerry came to debate) Dur Fuhrer came in with a hump on his back because instead of preparing for a debate, he'd been up all week smoothing over the rough edges of a coke buzz with booze. All that aside, his remarks resemble yours. "YOU'RE ONE TOO!" and "YOU DID IT TOO!" was all that he could childishly scream at an obviously superior individual.

I suppose, you'll next tell me about the "thousands" of repukes that start boards in this forum proposing devastating action against their own party. I bet you meet lots of anti-war freepers around here, who are big fans of Gandhi and the great man who followed in his rich tradition of peaceful protest, Martin Luther King. When you find these insidious spys in here, alcibiades_mystery, be sure to tell them to keep attempting to unify and motivate the Democratic Party, as they attack repuke ideas.

Now, onward and upward, instead of focusing on negatives, I want to publicly thank some of you in the order you posted. First and foremost, I humbly offer thanks to all who posted messages supporting the idea that it is time to petition this second Reich before the rupukes go back in office to begin the Third Reich. Then, I want to thank those posters, like stepping razor, who's posts bugged me but focused on valid issues that need to be considered. Neil List had perfect timing and came on this board with valid criticisms that allowed me to present my personal credentials and, more importantly, gave a warning to ANYONE who might post illegal acts they had done or were considering. To you illegal activists: I will not judge you but please keep this information to yourself for your own protection. I've met others on this board that I look forward to writing to in more detail because I feel things will become even worse before they improve. When darkness overtakes democracy in the not so distant future it will be remarks like "One thing the MSM couldn't ignore is millions of citizens marching," that will be my only light of hope. It's nice to know there are others ready to take action, when the time is right.

[alcibiades_mystery]

56. What the fuck

are you even babbling about?

Listen here, Charlie. My only point was that there are so many "Blah Blah Blah Take to the Streets!!!" threads that it's becvome a big joke. You don't like being included in that? You think it belittles your efforts? Too fucking bad, ace. It's the fucking case. As for the rest of yout long-winded nonsenses here, I could barely wade throught the prose, much less care.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

60. oh yes, your opinion is sooo important

Now that all my efforts are sooo belittled by such a respected source like you alcibiades_mystery, I may never be able to inspire another Democrat or convert another Republican to our cause... I'm ruined as a peaceful activist, never to propose we exercise our 1st Amendment again... You have been very successful in your goal. Can you see me crawling away yet?

I did mean to mention the interesting name you use as a handle here at DU. alcibiades_mystery, is no mystery to me and many others here. Alcibiades was a Greek born around the time of Plato who was known for being ultra-wealthy, you know that top 3% we hear so much about. Anyhow this Alcibiades was known for scoffing at commoners and their stupid ideas that truth, justice and temperance are actually reasonable approaches. In fact, when it came to temperance this guy was the exact opposite, like Hur Bushy the coke-head and is known for his debauchery. He is also known as a vicious blood-thirsty war monger. I believe everyone at DU picked a nick-name they identified with personally. I certainly picked my nick on that basis.

[alcibiades_mystery]

62. Hey, you're the one who got so upset about it

Let's review, shall we?

You say "CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE NOW!" or some other such.

I say: Oy, another one of these posts...eye-friggin'-roll

You say: I'm not gonna call you a freeper, but you're very like a freeper blah blah blah

I point out that you perform the same acts you accuse me of, insulting the person rather than dealing with the issue (with the one provisio that I NEVER insulted the person, not once...only you did that)

You say: You're secretly a freeper, blah blah blah followed by some long-winded and incomprehensible ramblings

I say: Whatever, yo.

And now, you say: I really don't care what you think, oh, and by the way, I've performed some sublime hermeneutical operation on your screen name, and I've determined it to be a masked reference to your freeperism, aha, gotcha blah blah blha...oh, and all my friends think so too, really, everybody thinks this about YOU, alcibiades_mystery!

So I'll say this: Apart from the pathetic junior-high-schoolesque paltriness of your "me and many others here" gambit, your strategy in this thread is only notable for its cowardice. Its utter cowardice. If you want to accuse me of something, come out and say it, instead of hiding behind your dubious passive-aggressive pseudo-accusations. Or alert the mods, as per the rules. As it stands, I am a member in good standing of this board, and I'll not even lend your accusations any weight by getting other long-time members to vouch for my leftist credentials. Besides all this, your pitifully inept rendering of Alcibiades leaves a lot to be desired, history-wise; as they say, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing...primarily because it is not a lot of knowledge. That said, Alcibiades, unlike your own namesake, probably fucked his own slaves openly, without the subterfuge and hypocrisy.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

64. Do you think altering my quotes will keep people from reading back?

I mean why waste time twisting my words all around, when my true statements are already printed earlier on this board? So are yours and there's no point in trying to mask them now. Anyone can see that your first quote was designed to either hurt my feelings or make me mad, just like all your posts. The really sad thing about your hideous misconception is that you never had the ability to make me feel anything at all. I am responsible for how I feel... If I had gotten mad or hurt, it would be my fault, not yours. With me, no one can ever make me happy, sad or mad unless for some odd reason i become a fool and relinquish that power to them. In my mind, logic can rule over emotions most of the time, while I sit back and study foolish emotional attackers like bacteria under a microscope. Have a nice day!

[alcibiades_mystery]

65. Yikes

Whatever you say, Dr. Freud. :eyes:

I stand by my assertions, and your microscope is showing.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

67. oh no, not again!

I was hoping it was concealed! YIKES!!!

[TriMetFan]

57. To hell with civil disobedience.

This should have happen back in 2000 or 2004. It is now time for civil war. I really don't want to bring up my kids in a nation run by wacko-nazi's and I really don't want to leave my Nation. I ask God to forgive me every single day for hating these people and the people that voted for them so fucking much.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

58. me too triMetFan but...

Should we ask for forgiveness as we defend Divine concepts like truth, freedom and peace? Perhaps consider feeling sorry for these closed minds. The mind, like a parachute, only functions after it's open. Please read back on this board and you'll discover I can never advocate war or hate. What I strongly endorse here is for everyone, regardless of religious views, joining together in a battle against evil, which is looming before us in the same human forms it always adopts. Only good can overcome evil. Peaceful expression of our First Amendment rights is the only way to rise above an illegal and immoral war for profits.

[Fire Walk With Me]

61. Republicans With Guns are dying to meet any violent replies.

Give them a reason to drop martial law and they'll dance in the aisles of Congress.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

63. Your post induces nostalgia Peake

Your right, let's not give them even a peaceful 1st Amendment Assembly "reason" to declare Martial Law We must become VERY afraid. Let's hide... Here's some good guidelines for hiding out:

It reminds my of a story I read long ago about a cautious lamb and a vicious wolf. The lamb being constantly frighted, never gave the wolf any "reason" to attack. In fact, it hid much of the time and gave the wolf very few opportunities to take away a lifestyle the lamb held dear.

One day, however, the lamb got thirsty and went to a stream for a quick sip of water before returning to a hidden sanctuary. You see, all living creatures must creep out of hiding eventually or they cannot survive.

Just as one might expect, as the lamb quickly stole a few sips of precious water from the bank of a stream, the wolf came upon it but for some odd reason the wolf felt a need to justify it's actions.

First, the wolf accused the lamb of muddying water that wolves need but the lamb respectfully replied that she was always careful to drink far downstream of wolf territory. Then, the lamb was told it might drink to much water during its life and clean water was for wolves only, so the lamb agreed to drink only from muddy puddles after a rainstorm while it was young and drink from even more polluted puddles in old age.

Finally the wolf accusations became absurd. The vicious creature began to berate the weaker animal for frolicking when it should be working toward making wolf life better and doing other free-spirited things that one might expect from young animals. The lamb quickly replied, "I stay in hiding most of the time and never indulge in the rights our Creator gave to all young creatures.

Ultimately, the wolf grew tired of its self-indulgent games and attacked the lamb for no "reason" at all. As other forest creatures hid themselves better they began to whisper, "the tyrannical wolf needs no 'reason' to attack."

All dumb animals know; ANY EXCUSE WILL SERVE A TYRANT!

Aesop

[Fire Walk With Me]

66. You misinterpret.

I go to protests and get my name on lists like most of us here. I have for a long time.

But there is a difference between offering an excuse to fascists and finding effective offense.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

68. In that case....

Peake I consider it an honor to meet you... In reading back I agree, I did misinterpret you. I don't want you to think my very timely 3 thousand year old story was directed at you. The fable was meant to show others that we really have nothing to lose when it comes to tyranny unless we hide out and wait, then we lose all.

[NVMojo]

69. yep, it's still time!

[Jeffersons Ghost]

70. is it past time?

Have we waited too long to use our 1st amendment? will we continue to let freepers post tons of garbage on DU to make real issues slip down the main board like lightning?