"confederate heroes" day in texas today

[Gato Moteado]

WTF? interesting that they put it the same week as MLK's birthday.

state offices are closed observing the heroes that tried to break from the union and perpetuate slavery. isn't that special?

[hatrack]

1. Uh, guys? You lost - did you miss that little bulletin?

I know that Texas isn't a hub of the national news industry the way NY or CA are, but really . . .

[Gato Moteado]

2. all the southern states celebrate this ridiculous holiday....

...but for some reason texas celebrates it the same week as MLK's birthday.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

5. No, they don't

I have lived in Florida for 28 years and never heard of that "holiday."

[Clark2008]

7. Me, either, Grannie.

And I'm in Tennessee.

This is just more "Oh, lookit the stupid Southerners" bashing threads.

Ridiculous that some people on this board think that all Southerners are as ignorant as they apparently are about us.

[Gato Moteado]

11. florida and tennessee do have the holiday......

....whether or not state offices close for it i don't know.

check this out:

Mississippi, Florida, Alabama and Georgia chose April 25 (the day of General Joseph E. Johnston's surrender) as their Memorial Day; Louisiana, Tennessee and Kentucky picked June 3, Jefferson Davis' birthday; and the two Carolinas preferred May 10, the day President Davis was captured by a small Union force, effectively ending the existence of the Confederate government. Texas decided upon Robert E. Lee's birthday, January 19, as its Confederate Heroes Day.

here's more
http://www.antiqueshoppefl.com/archives/May05/confederacy.html

[Clark2008]

17. Regardless, it's not celebrated where I'm at

so that blows your theory that ALL Southern states celebrate it.
I'm in the South. Grannie's in the South and neither of us have ever heard of it.

[psyntist]

22. Not really celebrated here

i live in TX andf this is the first i ever heard of it. My guess is the only reason it is still on the books is cause some old white guys cling to it and because State employees like the extra day off.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

32. Interesting link

sounds like one of those "laws" nobody knows about anymore. It was put into place a long time ago, when Confederate veterans were still alive.

[Gato Moteado]

40. look, i'm pretty damn sick of people that pull this.....

..."it's just another southern bashing thread" BS. nobody has singled you out and said you're a racist or stupid. get over yourself.

open your eyes....look around you....if you're in the south, you're in a red state and the vast majority of people around you are morons. does that mean you're bad or that anyone is bashing you? NO.

can we no longer criticize the stupidity that permeates the red states because it offends the sensible people that live there?

everyone here knows that there are plenty of people in the south that are great people. we all voted for gore, edwards(vp on kerry's ticket), clinton, carter, etc. those of us that live or lived in texas voted for texas democrats and hoped we could win a race or two.

but let's get realistic, the south is red. there's a reason for that. the reason is because the majority of the population is garbage. it's unfortunate. but it's the truth.

i'm from chicago. i have no pride for the state of illinois. criticize it if you will, i will join right in. if it weren't for chicago and it's huge population of progressive minded democrats, illinois would probably be a red state too. why? because of all the rural areas filled with uneducated or undereducated people. uneducated white folks tend to vote republican.

f*ck confederate heroes day!

[rogue emissary]

25. Virginia ties the two holidays togther . . .

and celebrates Confederate day the last business day before MLK's holiday. :grr:

P.S. Technically it's called Jackson-Lee day here.

[Clark2008]

6. Uh... that doesn't make the lives lost in that war any less

significant.

Stop with the Southern bashing - Southerners have a right to honor their dead AND celebrate Martin Luther King Jr.'s holiday. Both are done down here.

The war you mentioned wasn't about slavery - it was about state's rights. Lincoln may have scored the Emancipation Proclamation, but any thinking person knows that black people did not get any REAL rights until a full hundred years later with the much-needed Civil Rights movement in the 1960s.

I suggest you shut up with the bashing, get out a history book, and then get your tail down here to help off-set our horrid conservative media by getting the word out about what the Democratic Party really stands for.

There is racism everywhere, but, honestly, honoring the war dead is not about race. It's about heritage.

Geesch.

[psyntist]

13. Thanks

Thank you. I am a Texan and this kind of thing really gets my goat. I would like to point out that Texas had a state holiday commemrating African American freedom. One of the first in the country maybe even the first. Funny how things like that work out.

But then again I guess what would a Yankee know about Texas culture or Juneteenth.

And for the record, Texas was not a big slavery state. Cattle ranching does not do well with slaves.

[MadHound]

24. Please, stop it, you're embarrassing yourself

Just stop with that BS line that "The War of Northern Aggression" was about states rights, not slavery. It was ALL about preserving that "peculiar institution". I suggest you go study your history, particularly the declarations of seccession of each and every state that seceeded from the Union. Every single one of them prominently mentions slavery as being the primary reason for their leaving the Union, and this is generally done in the first couple of paragraphs of those documents.

And being on the fringes of the South myself, and traveling extensively throughout the South, this whole notion of celebrating one's "heritage" is nothing more than a code word for racism and hate. The various permutations of the Stars and Bars that appeared on various Southern state flags in the late fifties and early sixties was a direct, hateful response to the rise of the civil rights movement. The Southern battle flag has also risen in prominence throughout the past five decades as a hateful response to the fight over African American civil rights.

Besides, what exactly is this "heritage" that you're celebrating, that of a racist, hateful, and ultimately traitorous people. Some "heritage" you've got there. Or is this "heritage" like the T-shirt I saw worn down in TN which displayed the Stars and Bars, with the words underneath "It's a White Thing, You Wouldn't Understand" Well, guess what, I'm a white boy, with both Union and Confederate soldiers in my family tree, and I have never understood this fascination people have with the racist, hateful, and ultimately traitorous ante-bellum South.

And I notice that you convienently forgot to mention a large factor that played into African Americans not getting full civil rights until a hundred years after the Civil War, and that is the brutal economic chokehold the South kept on its African American citizens, and the Jim Crow laws the South enacted in order to strip them of their civil rights.

I suggest that you take your own advice and do some real historical research. I think you will find that your excuses and BS that you are spewing is just so much revisionist history crapola.

[psyntist]

31. funny because it was the Northern States that first broke the Constitution

Funny you should bring this up, the whole traitor thing and who really caused whom suffering and who was at fault. Blah, blah, blah. At the time of the civil war and of the formation of the Confedarecy there was no amendement to the US Consititution nullifying Artilce 4 Section 3. The laws that had been enacted at that moment where in direct violation of the Constitution as agreed to by all the states. To suppose that at this particular moment in history that any other outcome was possible is ludicrious. The notion of true equality was still a fledgling ideal that had not gripped the whole nation. As a matter of fact many northerns believed in the inferiority of the negro race. To paint everything with such broad brush strokes is really to the determinent of what was actually happening. And yes slavery was the crux of the problem. But it really is the states rights argument that is the bases for the slavery debate. The fact that the Constitution had written into it an honorment of that very institution. And that the Northern states felt it ok to go back on their word and impose their morals and values on the Southern states. Without a clear amendment to the constitution that would allow such a move.

So as you say Please, stop it, you're embarrassing yourself. Stop looking at history through the lens of our modern day morals and understanding. Put yourself in the shoes of the people at that moment and just try to understand the complexity of the issue.

PS I in no way will ever condone slavery or hatred. I am a long standing advocate and activist in the area of civil rights. But that does not mean that I do not understand what was happening and what it was really all about. States rights it was but the whole reason that even became a problem was because of slavery. So slavery is woven through all the arguments and justifications.

And I know several Sons of the Confederacy that hold no hatred or bigotry in their hearts. They eat BBQ on the weekend with their African American friends. Just because some Stars and Bars wavers are ignorant asses does not meant hat every one the celebrate thier heritage is an ignorant ass. Just like all because some people that are against this type of behavior are pompous asses does not mean that all people against this type of behavior are pompous asses.

[SaveElmer]

36. This is incorrect...

You write:

"The fact that the Constitution had written into it an honorment of that very institution. And that the Northern states felt it ok to go back on their word and impose their morals and values on the Southern states. Without a clear amendment to the constitution that would allow such a move. "

The north did not impose an end to slavery on the SOuth. In fact, Lincoln specifically said on more than one occasion he had no intention of tampering with slavery where it existed. He only advocated halting its spread westward. Article 4 Section 3 gives the United States Government the power to determine the conditions under which new states shall be admitted.

Your implication I suppose is that secession was guaranteed under that same clause. Certainly this was the supposition of many southerners who felt that the constitution was a compact of the states. Northerners on the other hand viewed that document as a compact of the people as expressed in the pre-amble. The nullification crisis of 1832 tested the supposition, with Andrew Jackson finally forcing southern states to back down on their threats. It was this crisis, plus increasing abolitionist agitation, a desire on the part of John C. Calhoun and others mainly in South Carolina, to solidify southern unity, which led them to begin a more strident defense of slavery than they had expressed before. The fact of the matter is, the South used slavery as the issues on which to unite during secession. Without it, secession never would have occurred.

I would also point out he north did not attack the South. The South seceded, and then fired upon a Union fort in Charleston, SC. The war settled once and for all the issue of secession, and the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments settled the legality of slavery.

As to your defense of the SOns of Confdederate veterans, when human beings are involved there are always differences. But at one point I did look into joining the organization as I too have a number of confederate ancestors. I was hoping it was an educational and genealogical organization. In fact, with the many chapters I contacted, I found they were primarily an organization driven to defend the honor of the South's rebellion, and celebratory of the lost cause. Many were racist.

[psyntist]

42. You missed the point

The nothern states had passed laws that violated Artilce 4 Section 3 in that there were no longer honoring calls for the return of slaves. This was the crux of the disgreement and the federal authorities did nothing to stop this. Here in lies the problem. Nothern states violated the constitution as it was written and as it stood at that moment.

As for the Sons of Confederacy, that was your experience but not the totality of all people involved with that. Maybe that is the way things are where you looked but here in Texas things are a bit different. Not saying everyone involved are not bigots just that some are not.

[SaveElmer]

45. The South did not secede...

Because the north wasn't returning runaway slaves...is that your contention?

[psyntist]

47. No

The South did in fact secede but it was because the north was not returning slaves, at least in part.

[SaveElmer]

50. Sorry my title line was meant to be the first part of the sentence...

In fact, the SOuth did not secede on the issue of runaways, that was rhetoric. Many northern states had laws protecting fugitive slaves from the beginning of the Republic. George Washington, while living in Philadelphia as President, had to rotate slaves between there and Mount Vernon, because Pennsylvania had a law that said any slave in the state longer than six months were granted their freedom.

Martha's runaway slave Ona Judge ran away to New Hampshire, and remained free despite Washington's efforts to have her returned.

It was no constitutional violation on the part of the United States that provoked the South, it was their erroneous view that Lincoln intended to abolish slavery, coupled with the desire to move slavery westward that induced them to the break.

[psyntist]

53. From The Texas Ordinance of Secession

"They have for years past encouraged and sustained lawless organizations to steal our slaves and prevent their recapture, and have repeatedly murdered Southern citizens while lawfully seeking their rendition."

Not saying that other things were not factors just that this was also a factor.

[SaveElmer]

54. Again...rhetoric...

Used to whip up fervor among supporters...but in no way a fundamental cause of the war, and not a justification for secession.

[MadHound]

44. Thank you, you put it down in writing better than I could

Thanks.

[SaveElmer]

46. Thanks!

:-)

[psyntist]

49. We are in agreement

Ok, I am cool with that.

[slor]

3. Can someone get photos of who attends this type of thing?

My guess is that it will look like a rethuglican convention.

[Clark2008]

9. I'd go and I'm not a Republican.

I had ancestors who died in that war.

Just because people celebrate the heritage of their dead doesn't make them racist.

You people are just as pigeonholing as the Republicans.

You know the war killed a lot of people - and most of them in the South DID NOT and NEVER WOULD own slaves.

[slor]

15. Your points are valid but...

why does it fall on this particular week? Hell, there were even Blacks that fought for the South, and another thing, I did not read in my post where I called anybody a "racist". But I do want to know, why have it this week?

[psyntist]

16. Always assuming the worst

Who the hell knows. Whay always assume the worst possible answer. Maybe because Robert E Lee was born on Jan 19.

[slor]

27. Well how about honoring them on..

"Veteran's Day" or "Memorial Day" or make a "Civil War Remembrance Day" or something else that takes out the "confederate" part? And talk about "assuming the worst", I was accused of calling them "racist", yet my post did nothing of the sort.

[Clark2008]

18. Because Robert E. Lee's birthday is Jan. 19

That's why.

[SaveElmer]

23. Is the day designed to commemorate the avergae soldier...

Or in reality its leaders. The fact that it is on Robert E. Lee's birthday makes me think the latter..

Robert E. Lee was an interesting man, and his later actions did mitigate his participation in the rebellion, but in that regard I would hardly call him a hero. Certainly not worth a holiday in my opinion.

[PatGund]

26. I would.....

After all, Gen. Robert E. Lee did free his slaves before the war. Gen. Grant only did when forced to.

I had relatives on *both* sides of the War Between the States. There was cowardice and heroism on both sides, and they should all be honored and remembered, Union Blue or Confederate Gray.

Oh, and I'm not a Southerner either. 5th Generation native Californian.

[SaveElmer]

30. The fact is Robert E. Lee...

Rebelled against a country he had sworn an oath too. Grant only ever owned one slave in his life, forced on him by his father in law who he freed at considerable personal expense. This was long before the war. Grant's father was in fact an abolitionist Whig. Grant welcomed the addition of African American soldiers, and as President actually attempted to enforce, through federal power, the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments.

Robert E. Lee conducted himself admirably during and after the surrender, but this hardly makes him deserving of a holiday. If anyone is deserving of one it is Grant, who along with Lincoln was the savior of the Union.

[PatGund]

48. Two things.....

1) Lee came from an Era in which loyalty to one's state, (Virginia) took place over loyalty to one's country. Lincoln actually offered the post of General of the US Armies to Lee before the War between the States. Lee was tempted, but turned it down on the grounds that he did not want to be fighting against his state. Conflicted loyalties, understandable in his case.

It's interesting to note Lee was against secession, which he accurately called "nothing but revolution" betrayal of the efforts of the founders of the United States. Again though, his loyalty to Virginia superceded his loyalty to the US.

2) Even though he was the General of the Confederacy Armies, Lee *never* wore a General's insignia, wearing instead the insignia of a Colonel, out of deference to his rank of Colonel in the US Army. He said the only way he would accept a General's insignia was after the war in peacetime.

He may have been on the side that lost the War between the States, but that should not in anyway demean his honor or place in history. And if Texas and other states want to have a day to honor him, they're welcome to it.

[SaveElmer]

52. Well I guess we have two different perspectives...

Despite his opposition to secession he went along with it, breaking his oath in the process. WHat insignia he wore was of little consequence.

Lee's views on loyalty to state over country was of course a hotly debated topic, particularly in the South, but was by no means the majority view in the country. The issue has since been settled.

I'm not one to disparage Lee unnecessarily. Grant himself viewed Lee as an honorable man, fighting for what he believed, even though it was Grant's view that that cause was one of the worst men had ever fought for.

In my view, while there is nothing wrong with people admiring Lee, there is much that is admirable about him, to honor him with a state sponsored holiday is going way too far.

[slor]

28. Well whoop dee doo...

celebrate your dead on Veteran's Day or Memorial Day.

[NoPasaran]

21. Why today? It's Robert E. Lee's birthday, that's why

And the state holiday actually predates the federal MLK Birthday Holiday.

[slor]

29. You guys ever heard of...

Veteran's Day or Memorial Day?

[NoPasaran]

35. I didn't create the holiday... nor do I "celebrate" it

You asked why THIS day and why THIS week and I answered.

[slor]

4. Hey Gato...

I am thinking of buying property in Costa Rica, are you on the Pacific side?

[calico1]

8. If we are one country and some of the biggest

flag wavers are in the South, why celebrate a country that doesn't exist anymore? Isn't that unpatriotic?:shrug:

[Clark2008]

19. They aren't. They're celebrating all their sons, fathers and

relatives who DIED in that war - not a country that really never was.

[prescole]

34. Heaven forbid a Southerner be proud of heritage. Screw the bigots

who use the South as their whipping boy. Like Brad Russell, 518-489-1351.

[calico1]

51. Oh, ok. Understand. n/t

[ChickMagic]

10. I'm in Texas

I wasn't aware of this "holiday". I work for the state and I'm at work. We do get MLK day, however.:shrug:

[Gato Moteado]

12. wow...i talked to a couple of friends already today from texas....

...that work for the state and they have the day off.

well, damn......sorry to hear you don't have the day off too.

[efhmc]

33. Also in Texas and nothing is closed here and I don't remember offices

ever being closed.

[Gato Moteado]

39. i just talked to a friend that works for the state.....

...and it's not a fully enforced state holiday. it's a skeleton crew day. you get the day off, but if you choose to work you get comp time for another day off.

[ChickMagic]

38. It's okay

I wouldn't want it. Some of my ancestors died in that war, but
they were wrong just as we are wrong now.

[fasttense]

14. Joke - What I like about the North

They only salute one flag. Ok, it is a bad joke.

I live in East Tennessee and they had to be forced to join the Confederacy. The Confederacy sent troops there to keep them from joining the North. In fact there is one town that went back and forth between the North and South at least three times. A group of citizens in East Tennessee tried to secede from the secession. They called it the State of Franklin but the Confederacy quickly forced them to abandon their plans. So there were groups of southerners who did not support slavery or the secession. East Tennesseans are a pretty independent group.

[Clark2008]

20. I'm in Knoxville.

Great points AND accurate.

:hi: from K-Town.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

37. I don't mind honoring those who died in the war.

As long as it's not defending the actions of the Confederacy then I see no problem with this. I do wish they would have marked the holiday on a week that doesn't include MLK day.

[Skittles]

41. I have lived in Texas 30 years and I've never heard of that

honestly

[Gato Moteado]

43. i lived there 11 years and never heard of it either......

....i did work for the state for a short time but not in the month of january, so that's probably why i didn't know about it then.

i have a lot of friends that work for the state and have for years....that's the only way i know about it. it's not a real holiday in that stores are closed, etc, but apparently the state government recognizes it.