I have a brand new attitude. I got pissed off big time.

[madfloridian]

Someone said that some here were acting like "good Germans". It was said because I was unsuccessfully trying to convince someone that Howard Dean did not just call for a coup in Venezuela. (Which of course is a ridiculous thing to say anyway).

My new attitude is that if it mostly walks like a Democrat, looks like a Democrat, mostly acts like one (I still reserve the right to question Bull Moose at times and the DLC).....but if it smells anything at all like a Democrat from now on I vote for it.

I will still bitch at them and hold their feet to the fire, but I will vote for them. I don't care who jumps down my throat about it either.

No one at this forum deserves that, and I think that is just the beginning for some who want the party to disintegrate. I have always said that was happening, but I never really realized how real it was.

I love my country, I am a good American who plans to hold her leaders accountable. But do NOT use the words "good German" in my presence. That is not a true description of people here at DU, and I will defend.

This is not a "my party right or wrong attitude"...it is an attitude that the known is a hell of lot better than the unknown right now. It is an attitude that has seen good people get talked about in ways that are painful and just simply ridiculous.

And if you don't know the term, google it.

(edited to spell American with an n at the end.)

(And edited to say I don't especially care if anyone responds...best not probably. But I wanted to say it. I learned a lot today, and I will fight on the side of the party.

[Brundle_Fly]

1. thank you.

needed to be said, glad for your revelation.

[madfloridian]

3. The revelation was they implied I was complicit.

When you call someone a "good German" you imply in this case that they stood idly by and let Bush take over this once great country.

I resent it. I did not sit idly by....I fought all the way. I don't know if there will be a way back.

But I have said here often, that if the ones who kept on being destructive toward those of us who want to use the party as the instrument of rebuilding...if they kept pushing it would drive many the other way.

Since I was moderate, then liberal, I guess it is natural me to swing back toward the middle. I was not complicit in Bush's crimes. I will not be called that.

[FreedomAngel82]

5. Hear hear

My stance on the DLC has been the same since I found out about the group. When it concerns voting for someone I look at an individual records and their actions and what they've done. For example there are some in the DLC who aren't quite as progressive as others in the DLC. So I just look at that person and what he/she stands for. Clinton has some issues that I have with her on stances but she's a lot better then some republican out there because she is for gay rights and Roe v Wade. You shouldn't just vote for someone because they are of your party but you shouldn't just ignore someone because they are apart of a particular group. It's like if I had friends who were druggies does that mean that I'm a druggie too? Nah. (Ew)

[wiley]

2. Brilliant!

:hi: :dem:

[madfloridian]

9. That implies we stood idly by and let Bush take over....we did not.

I did not, and most here at DU did not. It is a dangerous time for things like that to be said.

[zanne]

10. But the DLC does stand by....

And no amount of righteous indignation will change that.

[madfloridian]

11. "Righteous" indignation? Just indignation. I will go with the "known."

I will work hard to rebuild what I can to make them unimportant.

But too many have tried to divide us, and I have learned it is just getting started. And it is NOT the DLC calling me a "good German."

I will go with the "known", when the others offer nothing of substance but putdowns and insults. I like what Dean is trying to do with the party, and I think he could succeed if not for progressives withholding support.

His goal was one million giving 20 a month, which would provide operating expenses for voter registration people in all the states, polling, everything....but only about 30,000 so far monthly. The reason for that is the infighting here, and the stirring up from elsewhere to divide.

Vilsack, the new DLC chair, has at least tried to be decent, he posts at Kos and asks for ideas. I don't care for the attitude of the DLC, but it is a "known" I can work against. I care even less for those who call names and prefer the party to disintegrate so a third can some day rise.

No one should imply we stood idly by.

[zanne]

12. Don't take it personally.

This is a political discussion board. Everybody with an opinion has been flamed at one time or another. We all have opinions and sometimes they clash. Not all Democrats think alike, thank God. I never accused any one individual of "standing by". I do think the DLC stood by and that they're not good for the Democratic Party. But take it for what it is: MY opinion. Don't be personally offended.

[madfloridian]

13. It is not personal.

It is an attitude from some progressives who are organizing quite well..that is their way or we are not bright. I find that abhorent. I do not like being treated that way.

As I said, I will choose the known over those who offer the unknown. It is going to be bumpy.

[Pam-Moby]

4. Peace

[madfloridian]

22. I agree.

Time to work together.

[WildEyedLiberal]

6. Wow, never thought I'd say this but

I agree with you 100% Good post.

[GRLMGC]

7. I agree nt

[madfloridian]

8. This morning, I mean it even more.

Something just happened to enforce my thinking on this, and I will not be made to feel defensive for defending my Democrats. I still will get mad at them, I will still point out when I think they are wrong.

But I mean it evem more now.

[Armstead]

14. I think you need to make some distinctinctions in categorizing

I don't condone the "good germans" acusation. And I agree that in most cases a bad Democrat is better than any Republican.

However, I am also very pissed and disappoojted with the leadership/power structure of the current Democratic Party. I believe in what Dean is trying to do -- but he is having to work against too many Democrats to even make modest changes.

The efforts to sow division you mentioned is not one-sided. It is a real division between those who basically support business-as-usual and those who believe that if you're constantly losing, you ought to re-examine your strategies.

And guaranteeing the Democratic Establishment the support of liberals and progressives no-matter-what is only going to perpetuate the status quo. They will take the "bse" for granted and focus on trying to look like conservatives. It's a formula for perpetual replays of 2002 and 2004.

And finally, breaking from the DLC corporatist status-quo mold is NOT radical. It is simply restoring an actual two-party system.

[madfloridian]

16. I have posted my feelings on the DLC quite often.

I know what they are about. I don't care for them at all. I also don't care for that divisiveness going on when others who want 3rd party have nothing to offer but condescension and putdowns.

Here is the deal. This is 06. Decisions are coming. People are going to have to vote for some candidates they don't especially like, or let the GOP have it again.

There are very few races in which 3rd party folks can win, and I am very sorry about that. But things take time.

I have to make some decisions. I have tried to make some peace with progressives, but I can not take sides against my country. That is just about what is demanded...that is not going to fly.

Again, this is painful, and it hurts badly, but I will have to choose the known factor for now. If the demands from some progressives were not so extreme, it might work. But it is hard enough getting by day by day with Democrats.

[Zodiak]

17. I do not see anything wrong with your position at all n/m

[madfloridian]

21. Thanks.

I will vote in the primaries how my conscience tells me, but I will support the Democrat in the general election.

I am still very angry about the comments that were made. If there is no structure to offer, no organization, then just nice internet forum platitudes will do nothing for our country.

[Zodiak]

15. Two things:

1. It is wrong to accuse other DUers of sitting idly by and letting Bushco run over us. DUers are some of the most informed and politically anti-Bush than any set of Netizens I know. I do not like the tactic at all. And yes, I am considered "of the left".

2. It is wrong for DUers to accuse other DUers of being stupid, whiny, childish, intolerant, zany, tin-foil, or anything else. 65% or so of contentious threads are chock full of insults and baseless accusations on both sides. Anyone who engages in this ONE BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE should be publically censured for creating a divisive atmosphere.

[KnowerOfLogic]

18. The vote is the only thing that matters.

quote:
I will still bitch at them and hold their feet to the fire, but I will vote for them.

There is no such thing as 'holding their feet to the fire,' 'putting pressure on them,' or 'poking them with a stick' as was recently suggested; these things do not exist in any meaningful sense outside of THE VOTE!!! If you vote for the candidate, you have endorsed their policies, and asked for more of the same. The only thing they care about is winning, and the only time that politicians will change a position is when not changing threatens to lose an election for them.

[madfloridian]

19. If I don't vote for them, I turn control back to the dark side.

I choose not to do that. And people who call folks good Germans for doing that should be aahamed. People who demand we withhold support from the party and have nothing to offer but words and anger are IMHO hurting us very much.

[madfloridian]

20. To those on the left.. calling Dean a neocon....or

absolutely trying to destroy the credibility of other leaders of the party...I have a question.

What do the people who are systematically dismembering each of our party leaders, one by one, using their own ideals such as standing with Latin American leaders over our own country....what you offer to those you manage to convince not to vote for them?

You offer a lot of anger, which I already have enough of...you don't offer organization or specifics...you just want to tear down. I don't mean everyone, either.

There are many like my friends and I are here, who want to change the top down system in the party. To us it seems sensible to hang with the one who is trying to do that. It will take a while, but there will be an impact.

What do you offer, other than saying words that imply I am complicit in Bush's power grab. That is what "good German" implies. What do you offer?

[madfloridian]

23. The "good German" remark is still being tossed around...

in such a way to make it sound as though either I or the people here at DU could have done something to stop what Bush has done. It is a terrible remark that I won't ever forget. I think it has totally turned my thinking. For a while I was willing to work for a 3rd party, but now I see the mindset....I don't like it.

It implies that we could have picked up the phone and stopped the war and stopped the torture. We did all that. We phoned, we marched, we picketed, we wrote letters of outrage to congress and media.

It is still going on, and it turns me off. I feel very uncomfortable now when someone suggests not voting Democratic. I wonder the motives. How can not voting Democratic in the election help us fix our country?

Makes no sense to me. Someone implied we did not know what was happening, what was being done here.....yes, we know. We tried to stop it, we failed.

[tirechewer]

24. Thank you....

And if anyone ever has any doubts about voting Democratic for everything from here on in, just cast your glance toward Washington DC. We can do a whole lot better, and short of the Apocalypse we couldn't do much worse.

Conformity has nothing to do with it. Survival does, and if you have any doubts be sure to stop in the middle of your next phone conversation and say the word "terrorist". You'll be able to hear the guy tapping your phone clear his throat.

We all know who the "Good Germans" are, and they aren't Democrats.

[NoPasaran]

25. At the risk of being struck by lightning

I have concluded that even "republican-lite" is preferable to "republican-extra crispy".