Stupid as a fox?

[Maddy McCall]

Do you guys think that Bush's blunder in the Middle East stems from his ignorance of geopolitics and cross-border Muslim affiliations prior to the war? (Affiliations which have only been strengthened through "democratizing" Iraq?)

Or, do you think that Bush had planned all along to "blunder," thus pulling us into Iran?

I just can't see how NO ONE in his foreign relations advisory team could see that Shia in Iraq would turn to their Shia brethren in Iran, given the history of Shia...Shia in Iraq have more in common with Shia in Iran than with Sunnis in Iraq.

How could Bush not have seen this coming? Is it possible that Iraq will ever have a secular democracy? Will there ever be peace in the Middle East? Certainly doesn't seem like it will to me--now or ever.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

1. I don't think he really cares

it is a guy-testosterone thing. And he is listening to his advisors who DO (or should) know more history, etc.

No, I don't think there will ever be peace in the Middle East. Too bad oil was discovered over there. Worst thing that ever happened to them.

But these quarrels are old ones.

[rurallib]

2. Doubt that Bush planned anything. Rather Cheney, Rummy

Wolfie etc.. And these guys have enough knowledge amongst them to have an idea what the cause and effect would be - and what could be planned.

[Maddy McCall]

4. The more I think about it, I almost pity Bush.

It is as if he is a empty front-man figure, and all of the plays were made behind his back, and the PTB knew that his "cowboy" ego would play just perfect for pulling off the war.

They wanted a brainless moron for the presidential post, because they knew that he wouldn't ever have the brains or spine to say no to them.

It's really pathetic, isn't it?

[tenshi816]

17. The really, really, really scary part of what you said

(and I agree with you BTW) is that when the puppetmasters installed the Empty Suit, they truly hadn't ever considered that his spoiled rich-boy ego and lifelong sense of entitlement, combined with his messianic fervor, might convince him that he was actually competent enough to be in charge, instead of merely playing the role they cast him in.

[Maddy McCall]

18. And I agree with you.

That's the beautiful, unexpected twist to the plan, isn't it. The moron is now in charge. :rofl:

[bullimiami]

3. what happened to iraq was not a priority. they figured they could smash

all opposition foreign or domestic. their agenda is hegemony and domination with no limit.

[Maddy McCall]

6. But their mistakes in underestimating Iran/Iraq Shia ties is just...

well, monumental, and I can't see how they walked right into it. Unless the goal was to enter Iran.

[havocmom]

5. It was all in the pipeline

And Iran happens to lie along the route of the pipeline.

Also, Maddy, what do you know about the oil brouse? Any chance someone could explain it to a market idiot like moi?

[Maddy McCall]

9. I think the oil bourse goes something like this.

Our economy rests on the fact that since the early 1970s Middle Eastern oil powers have used the American dollar as the primary currency in oil trade. Then in 2000, Saddam began using the Euro, which gave the EU a stake in the oil market that the US SHOULD be controlling. The Bourse which I think is set to begin this spring, signifies that Iran will begin to compete with the New York Stock exchange by using the Euro as the primary currency. What this will do is replace US dollar primacy with Euro primacy, and indeed demonstrate that the US that Tehran doesn't take marching orders from the US. Couple that with Iran's "in your face" dalliance with nuclear energy right now, and things could get ugly, for the US both geopolitically and economically.

Our dollar used to be backed by gold, but there is no longer enough gold to back the dollars that are out in the market, so I guess you could say that our dollar is pretty much backed by oil now, in that it was the only form of currency allowed in the Middle Eastern oil trade UNTIL Saddam replaced the dollar with the Euro. When IRan does the same thing, it will devalue our dollar and, possibly, send our economy into recession, if not worse. And our country is basically in hock, in debt, right now, so our removal from being the prime oil player could affect who calls in loans and when, too. (China? :shrug: )

OK, that's my understanding of it, and I'm not well versed on this by any means. Perhaps a Middle Eastern scholar or political scientist can provide a more detailed explanation. But in a nutshell, I think this is what the bourse is about.

It's scary as hell, isn't it.

[havocmom]

10. Thanks, Maddy. A more detailed explanation by an expert would be lost

on my little pea brain. Your explanation was most helpful. Saddam went off the dollar in 2000. We invaded shortly thereafter, with the neocons having it in mind from the get-go. Gee, sure helps me see why the selection of 2000 was a done deal!

Now, Iran is going to the Euro? Hmm, they aren't letting any grass grow under their feet dealing with the threat to the posh manner houses.

And maybe I'm really dumb, but seems any world leader worthy of the position would want to arm to the teeth to dissuade proven American aggression. Much as I hate nuclear proliferation, I am capable of enough empathy to understand the incentive.

What confuses me most in all this is all the stunts the junta has pulled which make arms proliferation easier for rouge states. Oh, well, I guess they do have friends who stand to make a financial killing from more global conflicts. They don't seem to care much about the other sort of killing involved.

Damn, glad I won't be around much longer. Not sure I am even sad about it. Don't want to be in a world where economies are not based on providing for the populations. Am getting the idea that all the mad dash for cash and pissing on the consumer is all the rage. The whole pyramid scheme is gonna crash pretty soon. Wish I could be leaving a better world for the rest of ya.

[Maddy McCall]

11. Whoa. What do you mean...

...that you won't be around much longer. PM me. :scared:

The rest of your post. Yeah, it goes back to my initial question. Either this adminstration fucked it all up from ignorance, or it was a planned fuck-up so that we would use our military to enter other ME states.

[havocmom]

14. Relax kiddo. Just pointing out that I am no spring chicken!

I'm so old, I can remember when the American public got a little peeved about some presidential surveillance and antics against political enemies!

But, nows I think about it, the public did take a while to catch on to the ramifications of presidents breaking the law. Maybe they'll wise up again?

[Maddy McCall]

15. Thank god.

You scared me to death! :hug:

[havocmom]

16. Prolly too mean to kick over anyway!

us bitches hang on for-ever!;)

Thanks, Maddy, your concern means a lot.

[tenshi816]

19. There was a TV program about this

shown in the UK just a couple of weeks ago and it sounds like you've summed it up pretty well. The program was part of a "conspiracy" series of documentaries, and I wish the series wasn't called that because whenever the word conspiracy is used to describe something like this, the knee-jerk reaction of most people is to start thinking about tin-foil hats. This petrodollar scenario you described doesn't, in my opinion, fall into that category. It's all too real and obvious to anyone who stops to think about it for very long. Unfortunately, most Americans don't think about it at all.

[0007]

7. You're giving the guy to much credit. junior is just a front

for the under current that is destroying this country. It is called organized crime.

[orleans]

8. he's been itching to get into iran for a year

we expected this to happen by last summer--but something came up.

[Maddy McCall]

12. Yes...

I just wonder if he lacked understanding of Muslim affinities, or if he DID understand and knew from the beginning that his "ignorance" would result in us being trapped in the Middle East for decades.

[orleans]

13. i don't think he lacks understanding on that regard

look at his family and the bin ladens--they've all had this little affinity going on for thirty years. so he knows.....(just think of the fortune all of them are gonna make war profitering....

they know. they knew. bush knew.