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Joeve Donating Member (203 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 06:04 PM
Original message
Jane, You Ignorant Slut
One of the things I've noticed over the last few years is how badly we fight with one another. I don't mean that in the sense of how often we fight or how heated the arguments are, I mean we're just lousy at it. No one, not the participants or the observers, seems interested in debating so much as shouting. When CNN first started it's 24-hour news network, I thought, naively, that it could have time both for hard news and serious discussion of the issues. I was wrong. Oh, I'm not going to say there wasn't a fair share of yelling or spewing inflammatory comments at each other thirty or forty years ago, it's just that as technology has made access to information easier, it's merely amplified our tendencies to act like a bunch of high-schoolers. And we do.

I'm not talking about the blogosphere alone, though with so many monkeys hacking away at so many typewriters, the signal-to-noise ratio tends to be pretty bad. What the blogosphere has managed to accomplish, however, is to show how much the well-paid, college-educated "professionals" behave like high-schoolers themselves: look at what happened with "ombudsman" Deborah Howell at the Washington Post as a perfect example. We're treading on their turf and showing them up for the hacks they are, and they just don't like it.

But I digress.

Instead of the more in-depth coverage of events a 24-hour news network would allow, we get the same talking points repeated ad nauseum. If you can't make your point in ten words or less, you're just screwed. And of course you must make it personal, it's not enough to win the debate you have to humiliate your opponent and do the equivalent of an end-zone celebration dance afterwards. It's not just the news: look at these phony courtroom shows featuring things "Texas Justice" (what the hell is that supposed to mean, by the way? Do viewers expect to see retarded people get tried and executed on the spot? Or branded, maybe?), or on Dr. Laura's radio show where people call up to get humiliated, or even on sports shows. When Jane Curtin and Dan Aykroyd did their famous "point-counterpoint" schtick on SNL's "Weekend Update" thirty years ago, it was a parody. Now, comments along the lines of Jane, you ignorant slut are the norm.

Things are so bad we've even invented a new word for it: snarkiness. Snarkiness is a combination of sarcasm, obnoxiousness, and smug superiority. David Spade mastered this in the late nineties (buh-bye!), Jon Stewart uses it very effectively, though in this observe's opinion, Jon is not only funnier in how he uses it, he can also get very serious about an issue when it's necessary. And Stewart almost singlehandedly took out CNN's Crossfire when he refused to go along with the program's snarky format (I'm not going to be your monkey).

The right's entire political/propaganda machine is built on snarkiness, and one reason they're so good at dominating the discussion (apart from the fact that they pay people a lot of money) is that the points they make can be made simply and quickly, and that they appeal to the baser instincts we all have. "Abortion is murder!" "Support the troops." "Whiney liberal loser!" "USA! USA! USA!" All are just variations on "Four legs good, two legs bad!" and make any serious debate impossible, because as soon as we try to explain the bullshit for what it is, the audience is heading out for popcorn. It really is a no-win situation for us under these conditions, so we need to change the conditions.

The problem with snarkiness, as the right will eventually discover, is that you have to keep topping yourself, and eventually you're going to go too far. They're trying to walk a fine line, keeping the discourse as nasty as possible without people getting violent, and there are some out there on the right just itching for the chance to get medieval on some of us. Certainly the corporatist wing of the GOP doesn't want things to get too bad, after all, it's bad for business, but sooner or later that dam is going to burst and things are going to get really ugly. The Germans couldn't stop the progression in the thirties, let's hope it doesn't go as far as all that. Or maybe it has to get that bad so we know that it can indeed happen here.

For myself, I will try in the future to avoid snarkiness, partly because I think it's wrong, but also because, well, I'm no good at it. The truth is, snarkiness works better for some people; that is, people who either don't have feelings themselves or who never had their feelings hurt and therefore have little empathy for those that do (hint hint), than it does for me. That doesn't mean I won't be a tough advocate for my views, but I'll try not to make it (and take it) so personal.

As someone said in a movie, these are serious times that require serious answers. Snarkiness doesn't accomplish anything, it just makes things worse. Let's at least try to act like adults.

Cup O' Joe - Blog Of The Working Man's Thinking Man!
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well, I agree with your thesis that we need more civility in debate,
but I disagree with your definition of snarkiness. Here's the urban dictionary's definition:

(adjective) describes a witty mannerism, personality, or behavior that is a combination of sarcasm and cynicism. Usually accepted as a complimentary term. Snark is sometimes mistaken for a snotty or arrogant attitude. Her snarky remarks had half the room on the floor laughing and the other half ready to walk out.


I happen to agree with it -- great snark is often MISTAKEN for an arrogant attitude, but it's not. IMO, the hallmark of snark is intelligence. A truly great snarkmeister is subtle and pointed, and is willing to make the joke even if it's supposedly "too intelligent" for an average audience. Dennis Miller, back in the day when he was GOOD, was "snarky" -- making far-ranging allusions that were considered "high-falutin." I think the Colbert Report is another WONDERFUL example of snark.

Most wingers, IMO, aren't snarky because THEY AREN'T FUNNY. I can't think of a single funny winger columnist or pundit.
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JohnnyRingo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. WWF presents headline news
Edited on Mon Jan-23-06 06:44 PM by JohnnyRingo
I think there should be a reliable outlet for hard news, and if there is, I think there's room for the three ring cavalcade of current events.

There's something to be said for "three people in a room hollering at each other" in entertainment value.
Though the last six years have been anything but boring, 24/7 hard news can be depressing and dry as dust. Watching CNN/HLN for an hour can make Hannity & Colmes or Crossfire look like a invigorating option, though a supply of nitro pills retain a place on my desk.

That's just me though.

I watch and read "real news" all day, and at night I don't mind seeing an indignant guest duking it out with "the other side". In fact, I think we could use a bit more.

It's the divided country we've become.

BTW....well written post
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Joeve Donating Member (203 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Boring News
Frankly I'd rather have boring news and a better life instead of infotainment and people shouting...but maybe that's just me
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RazzleDazzle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
4. You do your argument a disservice by resorting to sexism to
Edited on Mon Jan-23-06 07:55 PM by RazzleDazzle
promote it.

Yeah, I know it's a line from SNL. It's sztill sexist, still ugly, and I am all the more convinced you KNOW it's sexist and just don't give a damn. "Let me be sensationalistic to draw attn to my thread and who cares if we bash and disparage women to do that?"

And do that at a time when our most important liberties AS women -- the rights over our own health, our own bodies -- have NEVER been under the kind of attack they're under now.

Shame on you. And you have the nerve to promote CIVILITY in this way? Civility for men, apparently, not women.
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Joeve Donating Member (203 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Wake Up And Smell The Noise
There's nothing cops and corporations love more than to sit back and watch us turn off everyone we think we're trying to help by splitting into nitpicky, backbiting, power-hungry factions and tearing each other apart. "I wanna be leader." "No, I wanna be leader." "No, I wanna be leader." "No, I wanna be leader." Bla, bla, backstab, backstab. If you don't agree with me on everything than you must be against me. That's poison. Anyone who's not a vegetarian is automatically evil. All hip-hop is bad because some gangstas are sexist. If you don't believe every word of the Bible, you're a devil worshipper. If you're not gay, you must be homophobic. Look at me wrong, you're racist. Criticize Israel, oh, you hate Jews. Wear lipstick, you can't be a feminist. Divide, divide, divide. Let the powerful few keep the quarreling majority from sharing in what is rightfully everyone's.

-Jello Biafra, Wake Up And Smell The Noise
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Joeve Donating Member (203 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. By the way
I wasn't necessarily calling for "civility" because frankly the right wing doesn't deserve it...I just want the insults to be better...you can act like an adult and still hit hard
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sherrys Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
7. desperation!
Edited on Mon Jan-23-06 08:36 PM by sherrys
2000 presidential election stolen by Supreme Court
2004 presidential election serious voting problems, evidence John Kerry might have won

I think we are all so sick to death of it, we are all looking for solutions to fix being on the losing end. So everyone overthinks of the method to stop the madness of the Bush regime



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