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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 11:57 PM
Original message
"Creationist Family Digs Fossils" (Creepy Story of the Day)
Edited on Tue Jan-24-06 12:13 AM by JohnLocke
Family Digs Fossils--and Helps Others Learn to Dig Them, Too
By Mary Rettig -- AgapePress (American "Family" Association)
January 23, 2006

---
A Florida ministry is allowing Christians to experience God's creation while studying the intricacies of its design. Creation Expeditions was founded four years ago by Peter DeRosa and his family as a way for believers to get a better understanding of biblical creation through first-hand experiences.
Creation Expeditions takes vacationing families and individuals on fossil-digging trips to Colorado, the South Dakota Badlands, the Peace River region in Florida, and other parts of the U.S. to dig for fossil remains. Visitors can also go to the ministry's headquarters, which lies about 80 miles north of Tampa, to help clean and put together fossilized bones and to take part in other educational, fun and interesting activities.
"We do hands-on excavating with these families," DeRosa says, "and they have an opportunity to come out in the field to see the evidences right before them of the Great Flood. We give them foundations in creation science, and also, the opportunity to have the Book of Genesis come alive for them."
One of the most unique aspects of these creation science discovery tours, the ministry spokesman points out, is that people are allowed to keep any of the fossils they find along the way. This way, he says, those who have made the trip can take a part of the experience home with them and share about God's creation with their friends.

The DeRosas founded Creation Expeditions after years of digging up fossils for other organizations. The family members, including 22-year-old Peter, his sister Leah, brother Mark, and parents Pete and Linda, have no formal training in paleontology or other related sciences, but they have studied dinosaurs and fossils for more than ten years.

Peter DeRosa says the family has found many prehistoric remains that back up the Bible's account of creation, but nothing that favored Darwinist claims. "When we go out and we dig up fossils, we don't see different layers of different animals that support the evolutionist-type view," he asserts, "but we actually see animals that stay within their kind."

Among the remains the family of prehistory buffs have found, DeRosa continues, "we do not find transitional-form fossils. In all the years that we've been excavating, we have never found a transitional-form fossil changing into another animal."


Read the rest...
----
I'm appalled. A group of right-wing nutjobs who know nothing about archaelogy or paleontology are trampling all over what could be valuable finds, probably destroying them, and then taking them away, never to be seen again. :banghead:
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
1. of course they are destroying them. I wonder how many laws they are
breaking? shouldn't the archeology community and others be commenting on this?
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. These idiots get attention from the mainstream news outlets, too.
Edited on Tue Jan-24-06 12:11 AM by JohnLocke
Creationists say dinosaur fossils back up their beliefs
By Jim Stratoon -- The Orlando Sentinel
Sunday, January 8, 2005

----
CRYSTAL RIVER, Fla. - Most paleontologists look into the mouth of an allosaurus and see a prehistoric eating machine with a jaw full of flesh-tearing teeth.
Peter DeRosa peers into that mouth and sees the hand of God.
Working from a business park about 80 miles north of Tampa, Fla., DeRosa and his family are hammering away at two bedrock principles of modern science: evolution and the notion that the Earth is about 4 billion years old.
The DeRosas are part of a small but growing band of creationists using dinosaurs, the icons of an ancient Earth, to argue that the world is only 6000 years old.
The DeRosas' tool of choice? The fossilized bones of Ebenezer the allosaurus and other creatures cramming their makeshift laboratory. "It's very clear in Scripture. God's word is true," said DeRosa, 22. "Everything we've found supports that."
The DeRosas run Creation Expeditions, a ministry that relies on dinosaurs to spread what they say is the infallible word of the Bible. The family operation includes Peter, brother Mark, sister Leah and parents Pete and Linda.
The DeRosas have no formal training but have studied dinosaurs and fossils for more than a decade.
They lecture at private schools, churches and anywhere else that will have them. Several times a year, they conduct digs in Florida and out West, serving as guides for others, usually Christians, interested in dinosaurs. They charge $500 per person for five-day excavations. They also take in contributions from religious groups and other sponsors.
The DeRosas' digs have produced impressive results. They have uncovered a 22-foot-long allosaurus, a smaller relative of the T. rex, and a 15-foot-tall edmontosaurus, a plant-eating, duck-billed dinosaur.
The DeRosas and their movement, in essence, are trying to turn science against itself. By digging up fossils and interpreting their finds, some creationists hope to convince others that evolution and a 4-billion-year-old Earth are nonsensical notions unsupported by the data.
They maintain, for example, that they've found organic plant matter buried with fossils indicating the animals died only a few thousand years ago. Some say they've found human footprints next to dinosaur tracks, a claim the vast majority of paleontologists consider preposterous.
Organisms didn't evolve, they say, they were created by God largely as they appear today.
The vast majority of scientists consider the movement badly misguided, or worse, intellectually dishonest. Creationists, scientists say, aren't doing real science.
They are starting with a conclusion, that the Bible is 100 percent accurate, and gathering evidence to support that idea. True science, they say, actively looks for problems with a hypothesis.
* And over the years, a tremendous amount of research has been conducted specifically to find major flaws in the theories about evolution and the age of the Earth. The fundamental principles of both have held up.
"The evidence is overwhelming," said Skip Pierce, chairman of the biology department at the University of South Florida. "These theories are essentially established fact."
(...)
If erosion has been a force for millions of years, they ask, how is it that fossils still are being found just below the surface? After millions of years of erosion, Mark DeRosa said, those fossils should have disappeared long ago.
"At that rate," he said, "there shouldn't even be any continents left."
They point to a lack of so-called transitional fossils, organisms that clearly demonstrate one species turning into another. They reject any suggestion that inorganic material can be transformed into even the simplest life forms.
And citing the second law of thermodynamics, they insist that all systems tend to break down. Organisms, they say, devolve, not evolve, into more-complicated creatures.**
Most scientists have heard the criticisms and, by now, are almost weary of addressing them. They say there are many transitional fossils and plenty of instances of organisms growing more complicated. A seed, for example, becomes a flower.
(....)
Early this year, young-Earth creationists jumped on an announcement that researchers had found soft tissue in the thigh bone of a T. rex. This proved, they said, the animal could not have been 68 million years old because soft tissue wouldn't last that long.
But the scientist who discovered the tissue said it shows no such thing.
Mary Schweitzer, a paleontologist with North Carolina State University, said it's unclear whether the material is original tissue. Even if it is, Schweitzer said, that doesn't mean the leg bone is only 8,000 years old. Far more likely, she said in an e-mail to the Sentinel, is that scientists don't yet fully understand how tissue is preserved.
"It is very, very obvious that the Earth and the solar system are very, very old - billions of years," she wrote. "It is far more likely we are wrong about how molecules degrade, than that we are wrong about the age of dinosaurs."

Meanwhile, the DeRosas push ahead with their ministry, chipping at evolution as patiently as they chip stone off the skull of Ezekiel, the duck-billed dinosaur they uncovered out West.
----
Read the rest here.
----
*The scientific method. This has been accepted for hundreds of years.
**There is no such thing as devolution.
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Gatchaman Donating Member (944 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
2. I doubt they're a threat
I doubt these people have either the equipment or the true determination to dig up actual dinosaurs. Given the shallow intellectual waters in which intelligent design followers wade in, I doubt these people spend more than an hour or two actually doing anything even remotely related to what a real archeologist does. Most of their "fossils" are probably the bones of horses, rabbits, and other animals that have been dead for a century or less. Hopefully they're not digging up any Native Americans to "prove" than man walked side by side with the dinosaurs.

Besides, private collectors plundering archeological treasures, both natural and man made, is nothing new. Wealthy private "collectors" often cherry pick the best pieces from underfunded and desperate researchers.
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
4. OMG! what can we do to stop them!??
Not much, I know... but this is outrageous!

All that science getting carted to some fundy's house, never to be seen again!

Morans! Idiots! That stuff belongs in a museum.

"we have never found a transitional-form fossil changing into another animal."

Cause it takes years of research! Morans! AAGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-25-06 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #4
20. It is illegal to keep dinosaur bones found on public lands
without a permit. These folks should be reported to the appropriate authorities.

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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
5. Religion kills brain cells.
..."When we go out and we dig up fossils, we don't see different layers of different animals that support the evolutionist-type view," he asserts, "but we actually see animals that stay within their kind."


:wow:
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onager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Fortunately, the EAC is way ahead of them...
Our Fossil Creation Division can crank out more stuff than these yahoos can destroy.

:hi:
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Tell headquarters we've got to put transitional fossils...
... spanning Billions of years of evolution... all together at the same watering hole.

To prove to the fundies that -- well, I don't know what the hell that would prove.

These people are fucked up beyond all hope of repair. Truly defective.
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. I say we bury some "fossils" of angel bones and demon bones....
And then pull the rug out from under them.
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Well, angels can can dance on the head of a pin, so...
... we're going to have send for the special tiiiiiny excavating tools.


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long_green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. "animals that stay within their kind"
they just can't stop revealing their whole Weltanschaung: I'm out here digging up fossils so let me say a little something about race.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Probably not intended that way.
They probably read the KJV, in which God is said to have created plants/animals "after their kind", and where Noah gathered animals "after their kind".

Gen. 7:14, referring to Noah and his kin: "They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort...."

Anthropologists have also found that people are danged good at classifying things into genera and phyla, using a crude kind of morphology ("after their kind"), whether it's in Papua or Lesotho, or even Milwaukee (Oregon, that one).

In the KJV at least, "after their kind" never refers to people.
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Jeffersons Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Here's what I find most interesting in Genesis
Edited on Tue Jan-24-06 03:42 PM by Jeffersons Ghost
I've spent a lot of time researching the history of religion in general and more specifically Christianity and I suspect the passages i'm about to present are the main reason Holy Trinity, which never explicitly appears in the Bible, was first developed. It's a shame that while early Christians followed the lead of early Neo-Platonist in developing a trinity, they dumped the feminine aspect the philosophers proposed in the Ultimate Creator to keep those wives in line. IMHO, Genesis still maintains male and female in unison. How does an all-male trinity create? It kind of sounds unnatural to me.

Anyhow, here's the quotes:

Let US make man in OUR image... He has now become like one of US... Now I ask you, "did God have a frog in His pocket? Some may claim the US and OUR refers to angels present at creation. Others will take the mainstream approach and claim it is Father, Son and Holy Spirit but their scriptural evidence is sketchy and weak. To me and the more famous philosophers living at around 300 AD the "us" is male, female and soul, which in theological terms is Logos, Sophia and spirit. In philosophical terms it is the ONE, the INTELLIGENCE and the SOUL. Describing his trinity around 301 CE, Porphyry presents Divinity with triple aspects of The One, The Intelligence and The Soul before Christians initiate the Holy Trinity in 325 and complete it in 500 CE.

DISPROVE THAT BY RUINING GREAT ARCHAEOLOGICAL SITES YOU STUPID BIBLE-THUMPERS!!!
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elshiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
10. O God preserve us!
:(
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dusmcj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
11. Rumsfeld, Poppy and Babs got themselves buried in the sand at the beach ?
Oh those wacky oldsters....


You said fossils...
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Jeffersons Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. I bet scientists love these idiots
I'm sure that these fools CAN and WILL destroy plenty of important finds before any scientist has an opportunity to study them. The areas, named in the original thread are quite lucrative and there is plenty there that they can disrupt. What really puzzles me, with my reasonable grasp of the Bible, is that somehow the idiots think dinosaurs will prove that scripture is accurate. I can't find ANY mention of dinosaurs in the old or new Testament. People always puzzle me. Why does the Bible need to be accurate to prove that Divinity exists? Isn't it proof enough of Divinity that we have a new dawning each day in this gigantic wonder of a machine called the Universes? Doesn't Jesus prove with His words that He was a representative of Divinity? Why does evolution invalidate Divinity in the eyes of a fool?
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nickinSTL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
13. "we do not find transitional-form fossils."
And what, exactly, do they think they're going to see?

A monkey with a human head? A fish with legs...oh wait, you CAN see that...

Idiots. Complete religious nuts who know nothing about science destroying historical evidence for fun. :puke:
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semillama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Of course they don't
one, they wouldn't know a transitional form fossil if you hit them in the face repeatedly with one. Not that I am encouraging anyone to try this and see if I am mistaken.
two, in a way, the concept of transitional form is erroneous, as it implies that organisms are evolving towards an end goal, whereas they mainly evolve according to what suits an environmental niche they are exploiting best.
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atommom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-25-06 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. I like that idea. Let's use the scientific method on them.
:evilgrin:
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
15. Stupid people make my brain hurt n/t
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
19. Kick (nt).
Edited on Tue Jan-24-06 11:48 PM by JohnLocke
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-25-06 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
21. never thought of Calvin as a right-winger, but . . . .
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-25-06 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
22. The kids love dinosaurs & the elders are scared.
Most kids love dinosaurs--& even the Discovery Channel continues to run pro-evolution propaganda. So the elders are trying to convince the kids that dinosaurs will fit into their shrunken view of the world's prehistory.

Alas, some of the kids might actually pick up books & continue searching for truth.

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rniel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-25-06 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
23. I thought they all believed
that the devil put dinosaur bones into the ground to try to fool the good christians.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-25-06 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
25. I'm suprised that they're let into the digs at all
Most bona fide archeaologists and paleotologists that I know might allow private citizens to observe the dig, but do not allow participation in order that the unexperienced and uneducated don't mess things up. And they certainly don't let private citizens take fossils home with them.
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