Maybe we've lost the last two election cycles BECAUSE of domestic spying

[DainBramaged]

Suppose the RNC and key members of Congress, close members of Bush's cabinet including Karl Rove, and political operatives in the MSM have been able to keep control of the House and Senate and take the 2002 and 2004 elections BECAUSE they've been using every means at their disposal to spy on not just the "enemy" but simply put, spy on their opposition.

What could we do about it? They control all three branches of government and will try to solidify their hold with Scalito's nomination to the Supreme Court. The Congress makes secret deals and budgetary decisions without consulting the people or their Democratic representatives. They make decisions that will affect us for generations, and what can we do? Nothing. Those decisions hardly make page 13 or a single sentence neatly convoluted at the head of a news paragraph.

We're in deep shit in this country, deeper than ever before in our history. And not from attack from outside our borders. Yet the message we get from our leadership is silence or vacillation and parsing. I am deeply troubled and afraid. And the day will come when the men in shirts of color will come knocking at our doors.

All in the name of Freedom.

[opihimoimoi]

1. Yup, we are fucked unless we find something to fight back with...

Like.... the truth and courage

[DainBramaged]

3. Who has courage in our party?

Who in our party has the courage to even come here and speak the truth?

Who in our party will go on every media event or opportunity possible to rave against the machine as the Repugnant party does?

There is no one. I get requests for donations and machine signed letters or canned emails when I write or call our representatives. And they choose the agenda but make sure I'm reminded that every dollar helps to re-elect THEM.

But none speak to my fears.

[opihimoimoi]

4. Sadly, I agree we have an absence of Dem Leaders coming to the DU

But we have the courage to fight back and we need to find ideas to help others to join us. We only need an additional 4 to 6 % shift to gain and for the Pubs to LOSE.

[snowbear]

5. Paul Hackett...

When it comes to calling Bush a liar and a "chickenhawk" on Iraq, Paul Hackett kicks ass and never backs down or apologizes..

He deserves credit for that..

[kineneb]

15. why are we waiting for the current Dems to lead?

They are bought out or paralyzed by fear because they know they have been spied upon. Why else would they be sitting on their hands for so many votes? We, in DU and in the non-web world, must be the leaders and speak truth to power. The fight may be futile, but to not fight back would be cowardly.

Damn it, I want my Constitution back! Throw all the bums out on their ear.

[Tace]

2. There's No Question In My Mind...

That these hellhounds have been rigging the elections -- local and national -- and eavesdropping on political opponents. Of course, thinking like this is enough to get a person committed at the local rubber room.

[Surya Gayatri]

8. It's as clear as the cocaine nose

on *'s lying face. Of course they've been eavesdropping since well before 9/11. The opportune timing of rebuttals, the coincidental countermeasures, all point to inside info. Just too good--even for the Machiavellian Rove. SG

[blossomstar]

6. There is no doubt in my mind that this is true.

[burythehatchet]

7. or maybe we haven't lost the last two..er..three elections

[AX10]

9. As Larrisa said, we need Paul Hackett!

[OnionPatch]

10. I would bet the farm

There is no way they've been using this power and NOT spying. Does anyone here doubt for a second they would do this if they could?

[tinrobot]

11. Let's see... he's worse than Nixon...

...and Nixon spied on his opponents.

So, yes, I'm sure it's been happening.

[DainBramaged]

16. But all of our leadership have been so quiet about this

They have these great little press moments but no one sees them. They should be requesting time on the morning shows, the day time shows, any show with a Mike and camera an blasting out everything about this corrupt bunch of crazies.

[TankLV]

12. That's been a given for me.

What's news is that there is finally proof to back up the allegations.

But will amerikkka do anything about it, will the dems? I doubt it.

I'd have more luck winning a lottery I didn't enter.

[lala_rawraw]

13. I have considered that, but proving it is a whole other mess:(

[FULL_METAL_HAT]

18. Proving anything is just about impossible! If not for the HUGE volume of

shenanigans, its unlikely anything would be investigated or exposed, considering their ownership of the government!

But the sheer volume of scams they pull makes for some slipping through the cracks of exposure.

Covert histories show us the crimes people get taken down for are more often the coverups than the original scam!

Imagine what crazy shit they're getting away with while these other scandals have "broken through"!!

{B^>

[IndyOp]

14. Did NSA Help Bush Hack The Vote?

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x410244>

[FULL_METAL_HAT]

17. I thought this was a common concern??

I mean they do own the hole shebang and their pedigree is secret-spying...

Is it just from my hat??

{B^>

[iconoclastNYC]

19. This is why we need to run MAVERICK progressives in red areas

The longer I go on following politics the more I think it is possible for a maverick Democrat (with no history in politics) to beat an entrenched Republican incumbent by appealing to TRUE conservatives on civil liberities and restraint of the executive and on corruption.

The message is : The Republican Party has abanondoned your conservative values and you need to give them a wake up call by electing a Democrat.

We really can overcome the false dychotomy of liberal versus conservative. We are conservatives when it comes to executive power. We need to speak this language and get people to look past labels and focus on what these people are doing in Washington.