Five male Catholics on the Supreme Court?

[Erika]

If Alito is confirmed. Should women just don the burka and forget about birth control? Kerry wasn't Catholic enough to be endorsed by his church.

Men have shoved women back into the closet cheerled by W.

Be quiet, be submissive, and recognize your place. Oh, well trust the Catholics to somehow, sometime, somewhere straighten out there issues on pedophile priests.

In the meantime, women have been told where there place is. In a forest of large toad stools where they can get some shade.

[niyad]

1. do not go quietly into that good (really dark and evil) night

[Jeffersons Ghost]

75. since many Pagans will likely read this board

I want to wish ALL who celebrate the upcomming astronomical holiday good pleadges and wishes for an event in between Solstice and Equinox. It goes by many different names but my sentiments remain the same: Happy Holidays!

[kurth]

2. The Vatican is well represented

[dchill]

And Opus Dei.

[Stephanie]

11. I am a Coincidence Theorist

It all happened by accident. It's a random occurrence.

[MichiganVote]

88. Then you're not acquainted with the Vatican. This is their wet dream

[MoJoWorkin]

40. Yes, indeed! It is Opus Dei that we all need to be worried about.

I was brought up Catholic, and the current church doesn't even resemble the church I used to know. These Opus Dei people are nut jobs ---powerful and scary.

[tritsofme]

3. The fact they are Catholic in and of itself is not alarming.

JFK, RFK, Dick Durbin, Ted Kennedy et al are all Roman Catholics, but they are not extremists.

The problem is not their Catholic religion, it is their extremism.

[TaleWgnDg]

14. No, the political and now legal problem is

.
No, the political and now legal problem is those individuals on the uber-conservative side who cannot and/or will not separate their religious convictions from politics and law. And, that goes for George Walker Bush and the rest of the neo-cons including the 4 Roman Catholic uber-conservative quartet of:

Roberts, Alito, Scalia, Thomas.

Justice Anthony Kennedy, the 5th Roman Catholic on SCOTUS, is a moderate-to-conservative who on occasion grasps minority outcries for rights such as in Romer v. Evans and Lawrence v. Texas. He has occasionally demonstrated an ability to comprehend the legalities of Separate of Church and State unlike his other Roman Catholic colleagues on SCOTUS.



.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

68. Of these "rights"

Life, liberty and Happiness, include a woman's GOD GIVEN right to make choices about her own body.

[SharonAnn]

55. Fundamentalist Religion, A Threat Abroad - A Threat at Home

[catmother]

97. true. there's a big difference. nt

[TaleWgnDg]

4. Correction . . .

Yes, there are (or will be, shortly) a majority of 5 Roman Catholics on the SCOTUS bench; however, 4 of whom are uber-conservative Roman Catholics

Roberts, Alito, Scalia, Thomas

The fifth Roman Catholic on the SCOTUS bench if Justice Anthony Kennedy who was appointed as a conservative Republican; however, while the Court has moved to the right since Kennedy's appointment, Kennedy now appears to be somewhat "moderate" in his court opinions. Kennedy authored Romer (CO constitutional amendment allowing no gay rights protection overturned) as well as Lawrence v. Texas (sodomy laws overturned). Kennedy may be said to be "liberal" on some social issues.

But don't lump all 5 of these guys together.

[SammyBlue]

6. Anthony Kennedy = Bush V. Gore

Don't even try to defend Kennedy!

[TaleWgnDg]

16. The issue is the ability to separate one's religious beliefs from

the law. Kennedy has done so on some damn important cases, unlike the other Roman Catholics on the bench, i.e., Roberts, Alito (as a 3rd Circuit Ct of App judge), Scalia, and Thomas.

[Stephanie]

5. Are you serious?

Are they all Catholic?

[TaleWgnDg]

22. Get informed . . .

.
read this ----> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/06/AR2005110601134.html
(Washington Post, "Court Could Tip to Catholic Majority, Some Say Slant Is Dangerous; Others See Historic Victory," by Alan Cooperman, Washington Post Staff Writer, Monday, November 7, 2005; Page A03, front page)

[Sandpiper]

7. And an 89% male court

To represent a country that is 51% female.

[Mr. Blonde]

99. Since when is the SC supposed to represent the demographics of the country

The President (any president) should not be making picks based on physical characteristics. They should be trying to pick the best person for the job. If that person is Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Jewish, Bhuddist, Taoist, Pagan or Atheist doesn't matter. Black, White, Brown doesn't matter. Male, Female, in between doesn't matter. Are they the best person available for the job? Picking by the demographics of the country doesn't really make sense because chances are the demographics of people graduating from law school are no where near the same as the demographics of the entire country. And then you have to subtract all but the very best of those graduates. Then you have to subtract the ones who stay in private practice instead of becoming judges. We are looking at a very small group of people, relatively speaking, who have the credentials to even be considered for the job. Those who are at a position in their careers to be elevated to the SC are all very similar in their makeup. A woman should not be given favored status over other applicants simply because she is a woman. And no one should be given favored status simply because they appear to have a certain axe to grind when they get on the SC, no matter what that axe to grind is.

[Sandpiper]

101. Since when isn't it?

The reason the Supreme Court has never resembled the country is because throughout most of its history women and non-white men were oppressed by the white male power structure and actively barred from participation in it.

In a large and diverse nation, where the decisions of 9 people interpret the law for everyone, I believe it's in our best interests to have a court that is intellectually, racially, and genderally (is that even a word?) diverse.

If that means we have to look harder for minority and female candidates, so be it. The fact that they are underrepresented is no excuse not to look. Why are they underrepresented but our own societal failures and institutional racism and sexism?


And if gender really didn't matter in choosing nominees, why did the female nominee get thrown under the bus to make way for another member of the good old boys club?

[Mr. Blonde]

107. Because she wasn't qualified?

To think a nominee with no experience as a judge is the best we can do is very sad. She wasn't thrown under the bus to be replaced by a man, she was thrown under the bus to be replaced by a suitable nominee. I have no problem with an intellectually diverse group, but to insist on racial and gender diversity is crazy. And to me it looks like a blatant attempt to stack the court with people who are put there for one specific type of case be it women's rights or ethnic rights. The Court should be fairly apolitical, granted in recent history it hasn't been but that is the way it should be.

People who are on the court with specific issues they want addressed eventually cause problems for the causes they are supporting. If at every turn they are trying to get things changed, they could end up doing so in a poorly decided case. Then when the court makes a change (as it is now) those cases could be overturned.

The legislature is the body of government that is supposed to represent the people. Anyone who meets some limited criteria can run and represent their peers. The Court is supposed to look at a document and apply it to the cases that come before it. I still fail to see how being a woman or other minority can really help that much in looking at said document.

[Sandpiper]

110. No experience as a judge

Would be a slightly more persuasive argument if there hadn't been 41 previous male SCOTUS members who had no judicial experience whatsoever, including the venerated Earl Warren.


And on edit: Let's not pretend that the right's concerns about Miers were concerns of legal qualifications. Their chief concerns were that since she lacked a judicial paper trail, there was no guarantee that she'd be suitably pro-corporate, pro-religious, and anti-civil liberties once she made it to the bench. And thus, enter Alito.

[hughee99]

111. She was "thrown under the bus"

NOT because she was a woman, but because she didn't have enough of a conservative record to please the RW. Do you think Janice Rogers Brown or Priscilla Owens would have been thrown under the bus? Of course not, they would have fought for them. Harriet Myers botched nomination had to do with her lack of a "solid conservative" record not her gender.

BTW, Where is the Hispanic justice, the 1/2 Asian justice, and the 1/8th Native American justice? Forget about being underrepresented, I don't believe that these groups are represented at all on the SC.

[lindisfarne]

8. Scream this loudly - it should be enough to get the evangelists to

turn against Alito!!! Why didn't anyone catch this before? (I don't have a problem with there being 5 Catholics, but if that can work against Alito, I'm not opposed to using it).

[Stephanie]

9. it should be, but they toss aside every one of their principles -

- if they don't serve Bush. They are willing to toss aside liberty, freedom of speech, privacy - all of those issues that had them building bombs in response to Ruby Ridge and Waco. But they don't stand on principle. They stand in allegiance to a King. Exactly the opposite of who they claimed to be.

[Erika]

10. The Catholic Church did not offer Communion to Kerry

Because of his pro women stands. The Church is now in alignment with the Fundamentalists who feel women are ultimately fulfilled by submitting to the male. Theocracy anyone?

Let 5 of the nine Supreme Court justices be male Catholics and you may as well kiss women's rights good-bye. There is only one female.

[Bridget Burke]

42. No, the "Catholic Church" did not do that....

That was the campaign of some activist clergy. Last I heard, Senator Kerry was still going to Mass.

[TaleWgnDg]

24. The protestant evangelicals are voting him in . . . don't forget

that the "biggest" evangelical is in the white house (born again George Walker Bush) and it was he who nominated Alito and Roberts, both of whom are very conservative Roman Catholics. Gone are the days when protestant evangelicals and pentecostals bash Roman Catholics as "papists" . . . gone! Instead, they are appointing these ultra-conservative Roman Catholics (who are trained in ivy league colleges and the best law school) to our country's highest posts re SCOTUS.

[cantstandbush]

56. Yeah, the same evangelicals that call Catholicism a cult.

You have to attend their Bible classes to hear this shit. i used to be a member of a church that was overtaken by the RW evangelicals and their smearing of Catholics and Jews behind the closed doors of their "Bible classes and Bible colleges" is what made me leave.

[catmother]

98. good point. maybe they didn't realize it. nt

[Jeffersons Ghost]

12. here's some history on women in the Roman Church

Christian Father Hermias Sozomen describes resolution of the Arian Heresy, addressed at the Council at Nicea by writing, “The emperor punished Arius with exile, denouncing him and his adherents as ungodly, and commanding that their books should be destroyed.” According to Sozomen, Arius had a vast female following. By defending Paulianist Doctrine, Arius gave excommunicated patriarch of Antioch, Paul of Samosata a position in history with Canon XIX. “With regard to Paulianists who take refuge in the Catholic Church, it has been decided that they definitely need to be baptized. If, however, some of them have previously functioned as priests, if they seem to be immaculate and irreprehensible, they need to be baptized and ordained by a bishop of the Catholic Church. In this way, one must also deal with deaconesses or with anyone in an ecclesiastical office. With regard to the deaconesses who hold this position we remind that they possess no ordination but are to be reckoned among the laity in every respect.” It appears women held rank in certain churches, as “deaconesses,” prior to 325 CE.

[McKenzie]

39. that is correct - the Nazarene tradition was what Jesus followed

Jesus was a follower of the Nazarene church which espoused something akin to social liberalism. That presented a threat to the male elite in the Roman church which lead to changes to the gospels to reflect patriarchal ideology. Women WERE treated as equals until the 1st Council and often held priestly office.

As an aside, the Koran refers to follows of Jesus not as "Christian" but as "Nazara" or followers of the Nazarene tradition.

[Psephos]

13. As someone who was raised Catholic, I find your generalizations inaccurate

I believe in birth control. I believe in abortion. Many, if not most, of the Catholics I know feel the same way. We also feel it's right that Kerry was not endorsed by the Church, because the Church has no business endorsing politicians.

I emphatically do not think women should be quiet, submissive, and recognize their place, wherever that might be. In fact, I think quite the opposite.

I am not a practicing Catholic, and I don't think much of some of its ideas and practices, but I am also aware of the history of Catholic prejudice in this country, and don't see much benefit in heading back down that road. Whether or not I attend Church, I am still a Catholic in the sense that a woman born and raised in Pakistan but living in London is still a Pakistani. That will make me, and millions of others like me, find stereotypical comments about Catholics unappealing and uninformed.

As progressives, we get an object lesson every day from wingnuts about what it feels like to be broadbrushed. Let's not do unto others what we so resent having done unto us.

:-)

Peace.

[Erika]

15. Kerry did NOT ask for an endorsement

He sought Communion. The Catholic Church sent a message out they would not provide him communion. Which was an endorsement against him which was uncalled for. If the Catholic church wishes to have some moral ground may they find it in cleaning up their own pedophile mess.

[Psephos]

25. That's not what you said in the O.P.

I quote: "Kerry wasn't Catholic enough to be endorsed by his church."

I believe in precision of language, else how can we communicate? One cannot "endorse" against. The word means just the opposite of what you apparently meant when you say, "Which was an endorsement against him which was uncalled for." Endorsement is the act officially approving, especially when done by one in authority. In this context, it means "recommending for office." Naturally, when I read your post, that's the meaning I understood.

BTW, Kerry could have taken communion if he so chose. The decision always rests with the supplicant. Frankly, I think the whole thing was a political calcualation on the part of both parties. That it was played out in the media is the only clue needed.

But this is all a side point. My main point is that lumping the Catholics on the Supreme Court (or anywhere else) together for a broad generalization serves no purpose except to perpetuate stereotypes. It's easy enough to dismantle Scalia and company with their words and decisions, without resort to their race, creed, age, or whatever.

Try to understand the sensitivities of those who were raised Catholic toward stereotypical statements that lump all Catholics together. As I said in the previous post, I'm sure you can draw on your own experience as a lefty in Bush's America to remember why we want to avoid doing that to others. I know I can.

:-)

Peace.

[Erika]

28. The Church is the one who said Kerry could not receive

Communion. If that is not an anti-endorsement, I don't know what is. Kerry never sought an endorsement. Semantics is very important. The Catholic church is the one who made it an issue, not Kerry. By their refusing him communion, they endorsed the right wing fundies.

[lindisfarne]

36. Some rogue priests, as I remember it (or maybe it went up to the

archdioces) were involved in refusing communion to politicians who supported the right to abortion.

I don't think the vatican endorsed it. (but correct me if i'm wrong). But on the flip side, they didn't speak out strongly against this sort of thing.

It's gets messy when one says "the (catholic) church did X": one (or a dozen) priests aren't the Church. An arch-bishop isn't the church. They are part of the church, but they aren't the church. It is relevant that the vatican may not stop individual priests from doing certain things, but that doesn't mean the vatican wholly endorses what a certain (group of) priest(s) might do.


to add: certain priests WILL refuse to give communion to people. there are still priests in the US who refuse to give communion to people who have divorced and remarried. It might be rare and it might be against current catholic policy, but it's not unknown (esp. with older priests).

[Bridget Burke]

44. Two activist archbishops came out against Kerry.

But, as you say, "The Catholic Church" did no such thing.

[seabeyond]

116. and the now pope sent a letter to encourage? these preists

go after kerry. and they are not rogue preists. i feel the catholic religion in the u.s. has been hijacked. i love catholics. yes the old cliche,.... all my friends have always been catholic, and hubby a non praticing catholic.

but, the catholic religion is becoming scary in the u.s. it is becoming very orginized interfering in our politics. i swear i watched a union between the baptists and catholics during 2004 campaign

[Psephos]

37. I think this discussion has borne about all the fruit it's going to

Yikes, where are you getting your info from? Certainly not from actual contact with Catholics.

Honestly, you sound like an old-timey redneck talking 'bout those darkies. Catholics are not monolithic right-wing fundies. Not by a long shot.

On the political spectrum, Catholics in aggregate bunch up toward the middle. In bigger urban churches, Catholics skew left. Same with Catholic school teachers. If you think the Catholic Church is a bunch of right-wing fundies, you need more information than I can provide here. Hopefully, obtained in person, and not from some websites.

Meanwhile, now you're saying "anti-endorsement" where before you said endorsement. Yes, Semantics ARE very important. And no, it was Kerry who made it an issue. The incident was devised as a straddle by Shrum. This is hardly a secret...in fact, I thought it rather astute, politically.

Google for Shrum and "Reclaiming the White Catholic Vote" if you want to see what Carville, Greenberg, and Shrum are strategizing about with regard to Catholics currently.

This will be my last post in this thread. I have no taste for cat herding.

Peace.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

60. back when I attended Mass

communion could be refused for a variety of reasons and I believe that is still the case. Communion is a sacrament that any priest can refuse to give if person has not recently taken confession, another sacrament.

[karynnj]

76. That's actually not true

There were some elements in the church who said such things, but during the campaign there was an article that mentioned that Kerry's staff called churches in areas where he was scheduled to be on Sundays (or Saturdays) to insure that they were comfortable with Kerry going to mass. The article mentioned that Kerry was extremely concerned with being denied communion. His office called to insure that wouldn't happen - which was a sensible way to deal with the issue.

[Bridget Burke]

43. Two activist archbishops "sent a message" about Kerry.

But the Catholic Church did not.

"If the person has not been by name excommunicated, it is presumed that he should receive communion,” explained Ladislas M. Orsy, a Jesuit expert on cannon law at Georgetown Law School. Orsy said there are “extreme” exceptions, an example being a person who commits murder in public and attempts to receive communion having not yet been officially excommunicated.

www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/06/politics/main610547.shtml

There are many reasons for concern about the Supreme Court. But blatant anti-Catholicism just makes you look like a bigot.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

18. don't confuse

Me with someone "prejudiced" in spit of hideous history I know about the Church. I was born Catholic and I'm still Christian... Still, I see the implications of the lop-sided court in religious terms. I'm sure the OP meant no offense to even practicing Catholics.

[Cats Against Frist]

86. YOU may believe in that stuff, but the uber-right wing, anti-modern

hierarchy, as well as the fascist Catholic philosophers that hate the Enlightenment sure as fuck don't. Anything that makes that church stronger, whether participation, money, attendance at services, as far as I'm concerned, is wiping one's ass with the Constitution and everything that's ever been good and right with the world.

[leyton]

17. This smacks of, well, anti-Catholic sentiment.

If you mean people who want to overturn Roe v. Wade, say people who want to overturn Roe v. Wade. Don't say Catholic because then you might give someone the impression that you are prejudiced against Catholics, which I'm sure you are not.

[TaleWgnDg]

19. The general sentiment is not anti-Catholicism. You've got it wrong

by so lumping it. Instead, the issue is those on the U.S. Supreme Court who cannot and/or will not separate their own religious beliefs from the law, e.g., Roberts (has such a legal record), Alito (as a 3d Circuit Court of Appeals judge has such a record), Scalia, and Thomas. Kennedy, the remaining Roman Catholic is not an uber-conservative and is willing to forego his own religious beliefs by authoring such minority (gay rights) cases as Romer as well as Lawrence v. Texas.

The inability to Separate Church and States goes way beyond merely Roe v. Wade, unfortunately. It raises its head in legalities of stem cell research, right to die w/ dignity, gay rights issues, etc., all of which fall directly into the lap of conservative Roman Catholic and protestant evangelicalism.

BTW, for the first time in America's history, there will be a majority of 5 Roman Catholic justices on SCOTUS. It's ironic because all of them were appointed by conservatives to be conservative justices. The irony is also pointed because merely a few years back in America's history, Roman Catholics were slurred as being Papists unable to separate their allegiance from Rome. And, now evangelicals are nominating and hoping conservative Roman Catholics are seated on our country's highest court! How ironic can it get?

[Erika]

21. Five male judges

Maybe they will allow more than white and black burkas?

[Bridget Burke]

51. The burkha is not Catholic.

It's only worn in one Muslim country. Are you going to slam Islam next?

[Erika]

20. Roe v Wade had nothing to do with it

It is the right wing Catholic male fundamentalists who may soon totally control the court. I am totally concerned because the Catholic church in no way sees the woman as anything other than created by God to be a support for men. No birth control, total submission.

They can merge with the right wing fundies quite well who believe women should be submissive to the men and have the power to force their theocratic right wing views on American women.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

23. OIC

I had just read the headline before I posted. "Pedophile priests" is very wrong. I've met many great priests who weren't pedophiles and it's wrong to lump priests, catholics, jews or anyone else together... What really bugged me about all those allegations is that the spin-machine acted as if all priests were sexual freaks and in most cases the guys made extraordinary sacrifices for god.

[Erika]

26. I'm not concerned with your concern about priests

I am with your treatment of women being completely submissive to men, with no birth control, or equal rights.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

27. me???

What kind of drugs are you on ericka? this is the only other post i have on this board:

12. here's some history on women in the Roman Church


Christian Father Hermias Sozomen describes resolution of the Arian Heresy, addressed at the Council at Nicea by writing, “The emperor punished Arius with exile, denouncing him and his adherents as ungodly, and commanding that their books should be destroyed.” According to Sozomen, Arius had a vast female following. By defending Paulianist Doctrine, Arius gave excommunicated patriarch of Antioch, Paul of Samosata a position in history with Canon XIX. “With regard to Paulianists who take refuge in the Catholic Church, it has been decided that they definitely need to be baptized. If, however, some of them have previously functioned as priests, if they seem to be immaculate and irreprehensible, they need to be baptized and ordained by a bishop of the Catholic Church. In this way, one must also deal with deaconesses or with anyone in an ecclesiastical office. With regard to the deaconesses who hold this position we remind that they possess no ordination but are to be reckoned among the laity in every respect.” It appears women held rank in certain churches, as “deaconesses,” prior to 325 CE.

[Erika]

30. You discussed priests and I replied.

So where are you coming from?

[Jeffersons Ghost]

33. the earlier post by you said...

first you write: I'm not concerned with your concern about priests


then say: I am with "YOUR" treatment of women

What i offered was amunition to women... it's not MY treatment! It is CHURCH history by a Christian Father from around 375 AD.

[Erika]

35. So what do you think I said about your version of Church

history?

[Jeffersons Ghost]

52. It's not MY version

I love history; only a Nazi Repuke would twist and re-write it. I hate it when I have to wade through distortions in the historic record. What you just read is either exact quotes or direct paraphrase from a massive life work of Sozoman called, Ecclesiastical History. Historian and Christian Father Hermias Sozomen is the most respected source of his day. He was surprisingly fair and unbiased in describing heresies and other non-Christian belief systems. In his century ALL scholars and good historians were theologians trained in seminary school... It was 325 for pete's sake.

What you just read is part of a book I've been working on for years. The section I just quoted from is a history of trinity. Holy Trinity and the Nicene Creed that sheeplees recite like robots before catholic and protestant services isn't in the Bible and Christians didn't invent trinity they adopted it from Early Neo-Platonists and then changed it to a distinctly ALL MALE trinity, unlike the sexually balanced Trinity that philosophers of the day discovered in the Chaldean Oracles. The early Church wiped out early Christians with beliefs like mine at Bazeers France because their view of Trinity made more sense, which caused it to spread rapidly and erode the Church power base. In my personal beliefs, I can't accept the a supreme creative force is ALL male... It seems to violate nature and I see Divinity in EVERY aspect of nature.

Who do you think the Crusaders murdered first? It was defenseless peace-loving Christian Heretics in France. My book documents the horrors of inequality in early Christianity but doesn't focus on the topic. I'm studying the history of something that bears alot of Christian symbolism so I must deal with religious history. Here's a paragraph from another section of my book, where Catholic Crusaders weren't as interested in historic accuracy as Sozoman:

Rosenwald images of the Pope and Popess bear an uncanny resemblance. Men and women holding equal religious rank suggests Gnosticism, which arose in the first and second centuries based on Platonic dualism. Pope Innocent III openly labeled Gnosticism as heresy, unleashing the Albigensian Crusade from 1209 until 1255 CE upon the Gnostic Catherists of Southern France. After capturing a small village of Servian, Crusaders headed for Béziers, arriving on July 21, 1209 CE. Although surrounded, the town refused to hand over Catharists. Béziers fell the next day, as Crusaders followed a retreating counter-assault into the city, only to slaughter the entire population of over ten-thousand, in a town protecting about five-hundred local Gnostics.

News of the carnage at Béziers spread, causing other target settlements to cow-down to invaders. Cather strongholds progressively fell, the largest at Peyrepertuse in 1240 CE. Military effort took a toll on Gnosticism, until the Inquisition starting in 1222 CE ultimately broke the belief. The last Cather burning by the Inquisition occurred in 1321 CE, far removed from the first evidence of Tarot over one-hundred years later. No direct evidence of Catheristic practices exists, only accounts by the Church and Crusaders. European Gnostics ostensibly followed traditions of Pythagorean communes and left no written record.

Many European Gnostics were Christians, just not mainstream and very few actual Pagans were caught by Crusaders. Back then, women practicing wicca kept a very low social profile. A solitary witch I lived with in Denver compares it to gays in the closet, only she calls it a "broom closet." Imagine a big city protecting only 500 people. Those people must have been well-liked and respected by the general public. When these Nazis start burning books, they'll find a particularly hot spot in the fire for my history book.

[ieoeja]

64. Error in your post.

"Back then, women practicing wicca"


Wicca was invented by Gerald Gardner who first publicised it in 1951. You should have used the word "withcraft" which is not entirely synonymous with Wicca.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

71. WAS THAT BOOK CALLED WHITE GODDESS?

Did Gardner write that? Modern Paganism is a varied as the stars in the sky. Ancient witchcraft is likey not much diffrent. You are right, though, Wicca is a relativly modern term... I have a book by Scott Cunningham that's pretty good, as modern texts on the topic go.

[Bridget Burke]

79. Robert Graves wrote The White Goddess

The full title was "The White Goddess: A Historical Grammar of Poetic Myth." It's a dense & fascinating work. He obviously influenced much modern paganism, but his works should not be considered scientific studies of ancient cultures.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

87. exactly Bridget

He should have stuck with poetry. His dad was a decent historian from what I understand but I've never read him either... I've just seen accademic studies and reports that mention the books, never read either one. As occult writers go, my strength is in those who strongly influenced the turn of the century occult revival like Levi, Papus, Waite, Crowley and some like Saint-Martin who you might not be familiar with.

[Bridget Burke]

102. The White Goddess is quite interesting if you don't take it literally.

In fact, the full title indicates that Graves was looking for the source of poetry--not the true history of the wonderful Matriarchies that were destroyed by the evil Patriarchies. His other philosophical/speculative works investigate other topics--including ethnopharmacology. Idries Shah taught him a lot about Sufism, although not everything he taught was true. Those naughty Sufis!

I'm quite fond of the whole Order of the Golden Dawn gang.

[TaleWgnDg]

29. Indeed. It is the ultra-conservative rightwing of the

.

Indeed. It is the ultra-conservative rightwing of the Roman Catholic Church only who cannot and/or will not separate their own religious beliefs from politics and law, all of whom fit in rather well with the traditional protestant evangelical, pentecostals, who also refuse to separate their own religious beliefs from politics and law. Thus, George Walker Bush, a born again evangelical, has packed the federal courts including SCOTUS with judges and justices that will fulfill his own (and their own) political and religious agenda.

However, I take issue with anybody who bashes another's religion. I am not doing so. Nor should anyone do so. Instead, I take anyone to task who tries to combine their religion into our laws as are those who've I've mentioned. So be very careful to clearly and concisely define what it is that you are talking about . . .


.

[Erika]

31. Uh, I still believe in separation of religion and government n/t

[jonnyblitz]

32. it's amazing how some people are more concerned about

hurting some fragile religionists feelings then actual life and death matters for women. unfuckingbelievable. this country has become so fucking irrational in its priorities.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

59. we certainly agree on that ERICA

My writings show why that separation is so important... Let's stop comparing a new politically based religion I call Bushism with actual Christianity. If we don't learn from history we are doomed to repeat it... Bushist Fundamentalists seem to want to repeat the crusades and their fearless draft-dodging leader even slipped up once in a speech and called his approach a "Crusade" in he mid-east... If you want to piss of a Muslim Fundamentalist bring up the Crusades because those cross-carrying nuts didn't stop with France.

[Erika]

34. But I must mention that the time our SC outlaws abortion

and birth control, that my burka may wrap itself around the mans throat and deny oxygen until the man dies. This is not the 14th century or the MidEast. The rightwingers can talk and expound all they want. American women will act.

[Bridget Burke]

46. Catholics, by definition, are NOT Fundamentalists.

And the roots of the Religious Right go back to a very anti-Catholic form of Protestantism.

Where did you learn about Catholicism?

[seabeyond]

118. scalia gave a speech to law students in chicago. women stand

behind man, and blacks better remember back to 30's and 40's

you cant find that speech anymore because he had it wiped off the internet saying he didnt ok it to be recorded and he won the case

catholics are org. pharmacists and doctors to not do their job. if it is against their religious beliefs, get a different job. religion asks them to sacrifice, not make sure everyone else sacrifices for their beliefs.

i am pissed at religion. i am pissed at catholics. i am pissed at baptists. i have the right. doesnt make me prejudice. i dont like what they are doing. i am a christian. these are MY people. i am one of them. and they are screwin up our country

people have a right to be angry at religion today. it is the religion that has created this.

[EFerrari]

38. Sad guys who will try to turn the clock back.

Good luck to them, theirs is a completely lost cause.

Maybe we should send them a crate of preemptive pacifiers.

lol

[Moochy]

41. Men have..

Catholics are not the Vatican, nor are they of a unitary mind on the issue of abortion. The church is not a democracy, it's a theocracy. It has power over the clergy, but little or no power over the lay person. It's a very fallible human institution. Do you picture some gilded fax machine that gives these SC Justices their agenda to enable the upcoming vatican invasion of Upper Michigan? By the way, JFK was a pawn of the Vatican, right? since he was Catholic!! Those were ignorant talking points in the 60s and remain so today.

Now the fact that they are all members of the conservative judicial movement, and dislike how Roe v Wade was decided and would love to see a case that allows them to overturn the so-called settled law... now to my mind, that's something to be upset about. Not out of respect for religiosity, but out of sober recognition that the ideological struggle on the bench is simply conservative vs. liberal judges.

Those engaged in this struggle on the bench, see themselves as superior to the other branches. They have their precedence to back them up in their belief. Compare the private life one enjoys as a SC judge to the other branches. It's a profession that breeds well, a superior and smug attitude. That the conservatives are Catholic in the main, is an interesting fact, but can it be explained by some Opus Dei conspiracy?

[Bridget Burke]

45. Should we go back to a 100% white male Protestant court?

That, in fact, has been the overwhelming tradition.

There are plenty of problems with the Court. But a slam against all Catholics says more about you than it does about our government.

[spooky3]

48. how would you feel if there were five atheists on the court?

when the country is not more than 50% atheist?

[Bridget Burke]

50. I wouldn't care--especially since I'm Atheist and/or Agnostic.

Yes, I was raised Catholic. Growing up in semi-rural Texas, I was exposed to plenty of rednecked, ignorant anti-Catholicism. Things have opened up since then.

I'm less concerned about a justice's religious denomination than by his record. (Too bad that it's nearly always "his"--not "hers.") I don't regard The Catholic Church as an unbroken citadel. And frightened mutterings about "Opus Dei" are pretty darn silly.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

63. I want only a few athiests on the court

I don't like lop-sided majorities in our highest court... I really like the athiests and Pagans who attend services with me and I'll damn sure defend their right to worship publically... The Native lady at our church has neat views on religion too... I wish they'd left the Ten Commandments up at the courthouse of Roy Moore and then put up some Pagan symbolism right next to the silly political attempt of Moore. Then, we better add the Star of David on the other side of the big ten... What about Satanists? Don't they have rights in America? We gotta let them add symolism to Moore's public insanity. Maybe they'd want an upside down cross... How would the fundies like that symbol?

[Zynx]

84. Demographically they are entitled to one seat.

I'm Catholic myself, but demographically this is ridiculous to have FIVE on the court. I guess this "makes up" for years of having one or none, but jeez that's a bit extreme to have one demographic group so heavily represented.

[itcfish]

47. Being Catholic

is not the problem, being a member of Opus Dei is the real threat.

[AngryAmish]

72. What does Opus Dei do that is dangerous?

Notwithstanding their origins.

[Bridget Burke]

80. They're weird Catholics who use Latin!

They are a secret society with a website! Their spiritual practices would not appeal to me, were I still a Believer.

But their political influence is mostly a matter of rumor. Some have said that Robert Novak is Opus Dei. However, he only converted in Catholicism in the late 90's. He'd already been a Right Wing Douchebag for some time. So--don't blame the OD!

I believe they are featured in the Da Vinci Code--which some people do not realize is fiction.

I do NOT dislike Clarence Thomas because he is Catholic. He's given me plenty of real reasons! The same for the other Supremes.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

94. Hey my mother and grandmother went to Mass in Latin

There's nothing sinister with Catholic Mass in Latin... In fact, it seems I personally remember hearing Mass all in Latin. What do you mean by this stuff Bridget?

[Bridget Burke]

103. I'm making fun of those who fear & hate anything they don't understand.

I remember the Latin Mass quite well. You could follow along in the Missal, with the Latin on one side & an English translation on the other. It was a good way to learn a bit of Latin; of course, you first need to be literate in your own language.

The Puritans (& their modern descendants) hated & feared The Church becuase they could see the Pagan roots. Some of think those Pagan roots are the best parts...

[itcfish]

83. They are a Very Right Wing

Fascist group. Opus Dei is an international lay Catholic group whose core ideal is the sanctification of work. But critics and some former members have accused the group of having cult-like practices and promoting a right-wing agenda.

[Totally Committed]

49. Looks like America got what it was most afraid of back in the 60's...

The Vatican (and the Pope) will now run this country for at least the next generation (make its laws anyway...), and it wasn't the Kennedy's that brought'em, it was the Right Wing Evangelicals who felt they needed them to demonize the Democrats on the issue of abortion, so they invited them on in. Just great.

TC

[Jeffersons Ghost]

53. evangelical and fundamentalist Christians mostly believe...

That all Catholics are saint worshipping fools who are going to Hell... They may like the Catholic votes but when they don't need Catholics any more they'll turn on them like Protestant Crusaders and tear them to pieces.

[Totally Committed]

57. I agree with you... they needed allies, though.

It's one of those trade-offs you end up regretting once you see the outcome, I think. However they feel about Catholics, they know one thing, they target will be overturning Roe v. Wade and turning back the clock on what they all see as "morality" to the Middle Ages.

TC

[Jeffersons Ghost]

61. i believe the real reason that

Bushist Christians want to "turn back the clock" to the middle ages is to suppress womens rights and create the two-class economic system they need to enslave the middle class. In my view, a woman has a Divine right to make choices about her own body.

[Totally Committed]

67. Amen, Patrick.

A woman should have every right, including divine right, to do with her body as she sees fit. To deny a woman provenance overher own body makes her a second-class human being. It's as if women, given the same level of moral choices as men cannot be trusted to make those moral choices alone.

TC

[Jeffersons Ghost]

70. It's a shame fundamentalists choose to worship...

Such a weak narrow minded god tht they recreate in their own image.

The deity I know and love is benevolent, wise and all-knowing enough to talk to everyone, even an athiest, in words that the individual can understand... The Divine Creator teaches scientists to reveal great truths and offers all of us a Kingdom of Peace if we follow basic tennants of Christianity, Paganism, Budhism and all other belief systems... Why do some insist on recreating Divinity with so many human frailties? Here's from a section in my book called "PATHS OF THE FOOL"

Humankind, made in the likeness of the Creator has finally created life. This statement does not refer to the photocopy version of a cloned sheep, which simply represents replicating existing life but instead describes a life form that never existed previously, which meets most of the criteria ascribed to a true living organism. Like God, humans try creating life in their own image. A modern leading cosmologist, Stephen Hawking said, “I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it says something about human nature that the only form of life we have created so far is purely destructive. We've created life in our own image.” Hawking retains a position once held by Sir Isaac Newton as the Lucasian Professor of Mathematics at Cambridge University. Like Newton and Einstein, Hawking is a cosmologist who believes in God. Cosmology seeks to unravel creation of the cosmos and it appears that once truly great minds begin to fathom the broad scope of universal creation, a supreme deity enters the picture. At a level where science must deal with profound aspects of existence, there is little need to reconcile religious and scientific disciplines. Frankly, the most glaring need to reconcile disciplines exists within religion itself. In an ironic twist, science tends to end wars the hard way while religions, which generally center on concepts of peace, tolerance and forgiveness, continue to prevail as the single most common reason for all wars.

Exactly like the choice shown by The Fool in the first trilogy, humanity arrives at a crossroads to Divine completion on this final path of human ascendance. Will we persist in recreating Divinity in a human image? If humankind continues to envision a deity that even tolerates the death and destruction of war or indiscriminate rape of natural resources of this world, then we must realize both man and woman remain chained on the fifteenth path. We must break the chains of The Devil, which represent ignorance and fear. For humanity to ascend beyond this level, it must take responsibility for foolish choices instead of attributing them to a deity. If we worship a divine being that accepts intolerance, prejudice and hatred of those who believe differently, then we create Hell on this twenty-first path not Heaven. Whether we call it Nirvana, Heaven or a perfect mental state of Bliss matters little. This is the final path. Humankind demonstrates amazing diversity in cultural and religious beliefs. Is it not conceivable that Elohim manifests to each of us in His and Her own way? Perhaps the religious fundamentalists are correct and the deity they worship is the one true God. Even if they are wrong, at least their deity blesses flags of wrath in battle, thus relieving them of any responsibility for actions. We have other choices as this path transitions back into The Fool. Now is the time to take a higher road and realize that if religion serves humanity, it serves the same true God and Goddess. Only then can we unshackle humanity from ignorance and fear, which chains us to pathetically foolish paths.

[Bridget Burke]

81. No, the real Religious Right hates the Middle Ages.

Too Catholic. Same for the Renaissance. They prefer a bent version of Old Testament Patriarchy, per the King James Bible.

They'll join with conservative Catholic on abortion & gay rights. But the Church opposes the death penalty & aggressive war. And favors social justice. And the roots of the Religious Right go back to a virulently anti-Catholic Protestantism.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

82. that's a very astute observaton Bridget

Nice to meet you.

[seabeyond]

119. my fundamentalist call them heathons. that is the hypocrisy

these people are willing to ignore what each says about the other, cause catholics say they are the only ones that will go to heaven, cause they confess to a preist. so equally they arent impressed with baptists. baptist say catholicism isnt a real religion. yet they work side by side to get what they want.

[mmonk]

66. Then you won't mind if

I represent the administration of bush as protestant rule (and typical of it). I know you won't mind if I represent Condi Rice as African American rule or typical African American. I'm sure you won't mind if I represent Chavez as Catholic rule or typical Catholic rule or Chirac likewise and at the same time represent bush and Blair as Protestant rule and typical Protestant Rule. Catholics have typically been a democratic constituency. If you want to alienate them, go ahead and make an issue out of it. But I hope you don't mind if we bring out the hypocrisy. I remember JFK having to answer if he was American or Catholic or where his loyalty lies. Imagine if bush was asked whether he was an American or an evangelical Methodist or where his loyalty lies. There would be public outrage. The reason is America was founded as a former British Colony and their background and views and yes, prejudices go along with descendants through the generations. When the French helped liberate the colonies from the English, there was a dress parade for George Washington by the French soldiers. The American soldiers jeered them calling them papists and such as they marched by even after they helped them become a country and probably without them, wouldn't have succeeded, and Washington reprimanded his troops. The writers and founders knew the poison of religious prejudice and how it can be a problem when pushed by the state and that is precisely why they INTENDED the wall between Church and state. You may feel your views are truth but all prejudice believes itself to be truth.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

74. i believe the real problem

With Bushist Christianity in America derives from a Puritan influence in the very early days... Puritans were run out of England for closed-minded beliefs. Catholics and Protestants were doing fine in England at the time and did not have the views Bushism endorses. Guess where Puritans found new ground to build their type of Christianity.

[seabeyond]

120. are you catholic? why do you get mad when

your religion is called on the red carpet. they are doing damage to this nation. they are dictating that i must live my life by your religious belief, because you believe it, not because i do. catholics attacked kerry. the catholic vote really shfted this last election from what the preists were saying to their flock about kerry

why defend. why not recognize an issue and work to correct. understand that people have a right to be angry. i am a christian and i am not offended that so many are angry at christians right now. they should be. i am angry at them. i am not going ot ignore what they are doing, i am going to call my fellow christians preaching hate and division and NOT support them. to me that is walking away from christ. i would much rather walk away from religion, than christ

i dont get why when talking about catholic religion, catholics get bothered. surely you see issues.

[mmonk]

54. Hate to screw up your broad brush strokes

but being Catholic doesn't have that much to do with it. I mean look at Senator Kennedy or House minority leader Pelosi (Catholic). That would be like me saying Protestants have taken over the Republican party and that's why they are a threat to women's reproductive rights.

[Totally Committed]

58. Think about how Kennedy was demonized for his abortion views...

and how Pelosi would be if she even registered on their radar for more than a split-second. Look what they did to Kerry.

TC

[mmonk]

73. They......

Look how Protestant preachers went after Bill Clinton for his views. Look how Democrats were thrown out of churches last year by Protestant Clergy.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

92. hmmm monk

what you say makes sense. I really don't expect them to do much with RvW, there's too much cash in it and if a parent pushes abstinence on kids Mother Nature tends to hand out some oops moments. Guess what? Repukes get pregnant too, all the media hype is a ruse. I think I'll dump Bushism or combine it with the new fundamentalists and evangelicals. I'm going call a spade a spade. How do you guys like Cashtains practicing Cash-tianity? Guess what Jesus said his followers should do with money, when it comes to those less fortunate... Pass the plate please.

[mmonk]

93. Cash-tianity

I like it.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

95. hey!

Monk, if you'll bounce back and forth with it, I'll start a thread on Cash-tianity and give it a nice political title so it fits the forum... Maybe it will give the Pagans some fun leading up to their holiday season... we could post a 10 commandments and everything. For the First Commandment we might consider "(1) THOW SHALT NOT GET CAUGHT."

[itcfish]

108. Again, Being

Catholic is not the problem, most Catholics are Liberal but being part of Opus Dei is surely as good as being a member of the Nazi Party.

[itcfish]

109. Again, Being

Catholic is not the problem, most Catholics are Liberal but being part of Opus Dei is surely as good as being a member of the Nazi Party.

[seabeyond]

121. their is a sect in the catholic religion that is not good.

surely you see. the southern baptist use to not be this bad either. but they have been taken over. here recently there have been southern baptist ministers that recognize this and are challenging their fellow baptists. i dont think that is a bad thing, do you?

[lastliberalintexas]

62. I think it would be better to say 5 male religious extremists

on the Court, rather than singling out the fact that they're Catholic. The next one might very well be some yahoo Southern Baptist and be just as far right in his judicial philosophy and views towards women. It isn't that they are Catholic that is troubling- it is that they are Christian conservatives who believe in imposing their religious beliefs on others, Constitution notwithstanding, that is the problem.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

65. exactly!!! last liberal

Just like Nazis did in the early days of the Third Reich... Those same Nazis eventually went after all slightly different religious views.

[Totally Committed]

69. I totally agree with that...

5 religious extremists it is!

TC

[Zynx]

85. Anthony Kennedy is not an extremist.

[lastliberalintexas]

89. Bush v. Gore seems pretty extreme by my standards

But I do concede that he is not as far right as the other 4 of whom we are speaking. Being to the left of Atilla the Hun doesn't mean he's a moderate jurist, though.

[Zynx]

90. Outside of Bush v. Gore(and that was a bad decision), he has been

very moderate. He was the deciding vote on abolishing teen executions and voted to overturn the Texas sodomy laws.

[seabeyond]

122. but it is important that they are catholic and what a part of the catholic

religion is doing in the u.s. it isnt saying all catholic. again, dems have always had the support of catholic. but they are loosing it because the extreme branch of the church, is not longer the extreme, but becoming the mainstream

i am not going to pretend we arent talking catholic, when there is a problem to solve

i am going to say baptist also, when talking about the fundies.

it isnt me doing something to them, it is they doing something to me. i have the right to call them on it.

[Generator]

77. Didn't get the memo did ya?

America is only for Christians, and coming soon the one party state, presently called Republicans. Your president and all those with power-the Republicans- only represent you if you are number uno: Christian, numero dos: White, numero tres: Male. (Hispanics only allowed if they approve of torture and are in love with George W. Bush:see your attorney general for details)

Screw your need for birth control and abortion. Screw your need for affirmative action. Screw your need for seperation of church and state. This is a Christian nation DAMN IT! and there will be no choice in the matters of reproduction, end of life(oh there will be more challenges to that) and certainly let's not forget, corporate power. The state is here to protect you from yourself. And to tell you what to do with your most private decisions. Anybody for a rousing chorus of "GOD Bless America."??

Hmmm what country should we all leave for if we aren't white male Republican Christians? I wonder if we can get refugee status.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

78. I'm not into that song

How about ALL religions, races and sexual orientations uniting their voices in a few stanzas of WE SHALL OVERCOME?

[IndianaGreen]

91. Four of which are Opus Dei

Justice Kennedy is the only one that is untainted.

[Bridget Burke]

104. Do you have a good source for the Opus Dei information?

I've heard this rumor a lot, but nobody seems to really know.

[Shortyfuse]

96. Is it true

I do not know if I should worry about the catholics or not. I think Bush is counting on a religious backlash anyway.Why because they can organize. You already see the put dow on TV.
I heard a Spanish comedian say that he way Catholic and that the new Pope was a Hitler youth. I know he was the one that supported the No Kerry vote in the churches here.

[Bridget Burke]

105. The new Pope did not support the actions against Kerry.

That was cooked up by a few activist clergy in the USA.

And--was the Spanish comedian from Madrid or Sevilla? Please try to translate your own comments into English.

[Shortyfuse]

106. EXcuse me

I should have said ...A Spanish speaking comedian for Los Angles on Comedy Central. But was he a Hitler youth. Hey I am not joining the religious backlash that Bush is counting on. Just trying to get the big picture. Even the Mormons have taken a hit on corporate media.

[Bridget Burke]

112. The Spanish speaking comedian was a Hitler youth?

Sounds pretty old to do stand-up.

[Shortyfuse]

113. lol

Love it

[seabeyond]

123. bull. he sent a letter. n/t

[Neil Lisst]

100. The irony. 46 years ago, it was "Kennedy taking orders from Pope!"

From the pulpits of American protestants, that line rang out.

Now, it's "the Supreme Court taking orders from the Pope."

How appropriate that a WWII Nazi is so heavily influencing the Nutzis of 2006 on the Court.

[RPM]

114. is this the catholic bashing thread?

time to discriminate like its 1929....

[The Straight Story]

115. Maybe we should start a thread about how many jews

are in high government positions and elsewhere. Wonder how that would play....

I am not surprised myself in a country of mostly religious people, and most of them some brand of christian, that the court and other areas would reflect that.

[Neil Lisst]

117. It's not "Catholic bashing." It's observing a very real concern.

It's a very serious problem for America.

The Catholic church opposes birth control, which is reason enough to be concerned about having a majority of Catholics on the Supreme Court.

Try addressing the issue of what it means to the country.

[seabeyond]

124. it doesnt have to be. it can be a reflection on the direction the

catholic religion seems to have decided to take.