Is This The "Third Party Underground?"

[ruggerson]

I didn't think so.

So why don't those of you who don't want to be Democrats any longer quietly get out of the way, and let us real Democrats continue to work our butts off to make sure we kick Republican ass in '06 and '08.

We're going to take back the Congress in '06 and we're going to take back the White House in '08.

With you or without you.

[Pharaoh]

1. huh?

[radio4progressives]

51. So...em, . Whose standing in your way?

Go for it.

But before you continue with the 2008 elections campaigns which is a few years away, there's one item you'll need to get fixed before your faves will take back the house and the senate and that is to make sure alito isn't confirmed. Because if he gets confirmed, you can kiss off the mid terms and maybe 2008 to boot.

d'ya think ya can do that ONE THING, eh?

[kath]

2. No, it's not. What seems to be needed is a PROGRESSIVE Underground,

for people who believe in ideas that the Dems USED TO stand for.

[katsy]

7. Hmmm....

That's catchy. I like it!

[wyldwolf]

9. two points

1. There is a progressive underground.
2. Surely when you speak of ideas Dems "used to stand for" you are referring to some small subset of the left.

[Steve A Play]

14. Would that be the "small subset" that believes in the Constitution

or the one that believes our representatives should actually represent us? :shrug:

Steven P. :kick:

[wyldwolf]

16. Every Democrat I know believes that

What gets lost on many is the limitations that being out of power brings. :shrug:

[Steve A Play]

22. What gets lost on many here is "what difference does it make who's

in power if they don't support, defend and protect the Constitution"?

Last I remember is that it took both parties to vote for an illegal war and to give Bush the extraordinary new powers that he has to get things like the Patriot Act passed and push the Supreme Court to the extreme right for the foreseeable future. :(

Some things just don't deserve to be compromised on.

To quote the computer in the movie 'War Games', "Strange game, the only way to win is not to play the game."

Steven P. :kick:

[wyldwolf]

82. what gets lost on many here ...

... is constitutional interpretation.

Though the Iraq war is illegal in the sense that it broke international law, Congress does NOT need to stand up and officially declare that we are at war to make a war legal.

Would you care to discuss that?

Pushing the supreme court to the right has absolutely NO bearing on what powers the executive branch has seized above and beyond the norm. The President simply has the power to nominate Supreme Court Justices and to push for their confirmation. Ditto for the Patriot Act.

[rman]

79. right here:

www.progressiveindependent.com

Though it's no reason to leave DU.

[tocqueville]

3. are you with us or against us ? nt

[LoZoccolo]

4. If they don't get out of the way, get them out of the way.

:hi: :nuke:

[henslee]

10. TOGA TOGA TOGA TOGA.....!!!!!!

[fooj]

5. Wow.

With you or without you. Hmmmmmmmm...

Peace.

[Neil Lisst]

6. Yeah, I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you.

I'm a Democrat, and I'll be a Democrat in 08. I don't care for some of the posts that seem to constantly attack half the party members as too much like the Republicans. I don't care for the chronic calls to oust Dems on right, and I won't have it for those on the left, either.

This is one of the few places on the web left of center posters can post without suffering from an onslaught of out of control rightwingers. Let's not turn on our own.

I'm sympathetic to the concerns you raise, but right now, there is good reason for many to be chagrined at a lack of courage in some of our leadership.

Let's give them a hug, not a push.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

8. wow. is there like a test to be a "Democrat" now?

[mike_c]

11. I fail....

:rofl:

Too far left to be a democrat!

[Nutmegger]

76. Yup, I fail too

I'm a democratic socialist. OMG - call the hounds!!!

[jonnyblitz]

12. yeah...just shut up and cheerlead like the freepers do with Bush.

OBEY!!! be a STEPFORD DEM!!

[LittleClarkie]

36. Well, if you're saying "Fuck the Dems. Time to form a third party"

Ya might not be one.

I suppose that might be considered a test. One question: "Are you a Dem?" "No."

Test failed.

Seems sorta minimal and not much to ask, really.

[lastknowngood]

13. I guess your right there is no longer room in the democratic party

for people who believe in civil rights, human rights, workers rights, clean environment, safe food and drugs, the bill of rights the constitution and believe that our "representatives" should put personal gain above our freedom. You go ahead and take control of the country without those of us who believe in these old fashion ideas.

[LittleClarkie]

30. Well, there's probably not a ton of room for people

who shout "Fuck the Democrats! Time for a third party!" for obvious reasons. Ya know?

The OP appears to be saying that if ya wanna go, then go. Those of us staying aren't done fighting yet. Just a tad too much defeatism on the board tonight for some of us. And there is NO room in the Democratic Party for DEFEATISM!

So there. :P

[bigjohn16]

15. YEAH

LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT !!! :sarcasm:

[TSIAS]

33. LOL

:)

[acmejack]

A lot of calls for the progressives to pack their bags tonight

I suggest you may want to be careful what you wish for.

[ruggerson]

21. Ah, so now you're claiming the mantle of progressive

all for yourself.

Hint: I'm progressive and I'm not the leaving the Democratic party.

The OP is not directed at progressives. It's directed at people idiotic enough to think that leaving the Democratic party to found a "third party" is a smart move which will result in us regaining control of the country.

[acmejack]

24. Do you have a particular issue with me?

Or are just attempting to needle me to see if you can make me angrier than I am at this moment? That statement is ridiculous, I said nothing that can possibly construed as "claiming the mantle of progressive all for myself". I suggest it is counterproductive to attempt to anger one's allies for sport.

[ruggerson]

25. Sure you did

what the hell did the OP have to do with progressives?

What?

It's YOUR word, not mine, hence obviously YOU concluded that I was talking about a split between centrists and progressives, when I was not.

And the only sport that I see here is naive, immature whiners who daily come in here with self serving posts about why they're leaving the Democratic party.

You're right. It's not smart to piss off your allies.

[bigjohn16]

32. Is there anything that would make you not vote for the Democratic Party?

If they're willing to allow Alito onto the bench how are they are allies? If the Democrats don't want to fight for us why should we fight for them? I think talk of withholding votes to force them back to the left is fair.

[brentspeak]

38. "Willing to allow Alito onto the bench"??

In case you're not aware, the Democrats are in the minority in the Senate (as they are in the House). They don't have the power to prevent an Alito confirmation, even with a filibuster.

[bigjohn16]

41. Oh I get it, we can't win so why fight.

If Alito isn't worth the fight then who in your opinion would be?

[brentspeak]

45. That's not an issue that I was responding to

I was responding to your claim that the Democrats are "allowing" an Alito confirmation.

As for this new question of yours: Without enough potential public opposition to an Alito confirmation within the pro-Alito Senators' states, not only would a filibuster be guaranteed to fail, it could even strengthen the Republicans' power and weaken the Democrats' power more than anyone can imagine.

Why would, say, Trent Lott, of Miss., be swayed by a filibuster against Alito? Sam Alito is being touted by the Republicans' constituents as someone who would vote to overturn Roe v.Wade. In Miss., as in most Red States, the vast majority of voters are against Roe v. Wade. Therefore, you wouldn't see Trent Lott buckle under the pressure of a never-ending filibuster. Why would he, when not caving into a filibuster and supporting someone who might overturn Roe v.Wade would simply make Lott a hero in the eyes of his home state? It would guarantee him reelection in 2006, that's for certain.

The same goes for every Republican senator in every Red state. But for Democratic senators in Red states? It would be political suicide for them to support filibustering a justice who has the same views on abortion as do their constituents.

So not only would the filibuster fail, but in the future, you end up with an even greater Republican majority in the Senate. That's what you get sometimes for not picking your principled fights with care.

[bigjohn16]

52. "picking your principled fights with care"

He's anti-choice, pro unitary executive, and he is replacing a moderate justice but he's not worth using the filibuster? What power do the Democrats have now that they would lose by fighting Alito? If you mean the right to filibuster, what good does it do to retain the right to filibuster if we never use it. Again it seems to me you are saying we can't win so why try.

We're losing ground right now and its time to do something. What good is holding on to seats held by red state Democrats when all they do is jump ship when ever we need them? We may not win with Alito but at least we can say we didn't just roll over and hand the third and final branch of government to the right.

[radio4progressives]

61. ruggerson thinks he's progressive.. lol!

that's the funniest thing i've ever seen you write.

but it's perfect evidence of how far the plumb line has shifted.

ruggerson, you're a moderate. maybe a tad left of center, and that's perfectly ok. but you're not a progressive.

a progressive is not somewhat left leaning .

progressives are actual Leftists. there's a range in spectrum in that paradigm too, i.e. ranging from Marxists to Socialists, to Social Libertarians.

If you were a progressive, you would not vilify Leftists, you would have a natural affinity with other recognized progressives here, and you would share an empathetical point of view with regard to the current crises that concern us.

[rman]

81. as you claim the mantle of being a "real" democrat -

which you failed to define, hence leaving it open to a lot of aimless argumentation.

[GreenPartyVoter]

17. Does this mean you will be hacking the Diebold machines to

rack up the votes for Dems? Will you be stuffing the election supervisory boards with Dems who won't break the rules? Because a lot of people busted their butts for Kerry this last time around and the neocons still played with the numbers and gave ** the "win".

So if by "busting butts" you mean cleaning up the election system, then maybe you have a chance. Otherwise, I dunno.

[Totally Committed]

18. With all due respect...

this may not be the best night to be getting in people's faces with a THIS PARTY, LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT message.

TC

[thatsrightimirish]

19. well, we

don't live in a country with a Parliamentary system and every state isn't Vermont so it is very hard to win anything 3rd party. So I don't see what leaving or not voting Democrat in 2008 will prove. There should be primaries for people way to conservative, that's why its there. Lieberman is getting a serious primary challenge. And so is Akaka. (But I like Akaka). So please! Don't leave!

[4Freedom]

20. Has the Right Brain Usurped the Left?

It is somewhat frantic out tonight. The silence on Alito is deafening. I'd rather the Dems not gnaw on their own foot, but if issues need to be aired, they had best be aired before things get serious this fall.

Does the *real* Democratic cadre support the filibuster?

If not, why not.

[Peace Patriot]

23. "We're going to take back the Congress in '06 and we're going to take...

.. back the White House in '08."

How do you propose to do that, with rightwing Bushite corporations owning and controlling the tabulation of all of our votes, with "TRADE SECRET," PROPRIETARY programming code, and with virtually no audit/recount controls?

And do you think that the Democratic Party leadership doesn't bear any responsibility for its DEAFENING SILENCE about Bushites controlling the counting of our votes?

Ruggerson, you are not going to "take back" anything that the righgwingnuts at Diebold and ES&S don't want you to have. And that seems to be just fine with the top leadership of the Party that I have been loyal to for 40 years now.

I think we need to strategize on the basis of reality and truth--not these fantasies of democracy where we can "take back" our country without the right to vote.

That's not realistic. That's fantasyland. And our Party leadership DOES bear responsibility for the majority in the country being powerless to stop a war that we never wanted (58% opposed to Bush's war way back before the invasion--Feb. '03!), and being powerless to stop policies like torturing prisoners that we are overwhelmingly opposed to (63%, May '04), and being unable to stop wretched appointments like that of torture memo writer Alberto Gonzales for chief law endorsement officer of the U.S.

The fact that the Bush junta has these powers--or has any power at all--is due to NON-TRANSPARENT elections controlled by Bush's buds.

Not one word. Not even a whimper--as this egregiously non-transparent election system, controlled by Bushites, was put into place (2001-2004)--this $4 billion boondoggle arranged by Tom Delay to utterly corrupt our election system.

Nothing. Nada--from our Party leadership. So I have got to figure something's wrong, ruggerson. Something's really, really, really wrong. Some of these Democrats LIKE Bush's war and Bush's torture and Bush's tax cuts for the rich. Some of the most powerful ones, able to strongarm and silence the others. It's hard to put any other interpretation on it. HOW could they have let this happen--Bushites controlling the vote count--without even objecting? (--let alone what they should have done, burning down the Capitol to get this changed; DEMANDING a TRANSPARENT vote!).

Fear, cowardice, corruption, complicity--these are all in play, in my opinion. (Ex. The Dems were getting anthraxed when this electronic voting thing got through Congress. But what about afterward? Not a peep!)

I don't intend to bolt this Party. I'm going to MAKE THEM restore my right to vote--if it's the last thing I do on this earth. I owe that much to the future--to pass on to the future the great heritage of democracy that was passed, by others, to me.

And I won't shut up about what they've done. And I won't shut up about why I think they did it. And I won't leave. You're stuck with me, Ruggerson--a Democratic Democrat basher aimed right at the louts and bastards who were silent while the Bushites took over our election system and stole my right to vote.

[ruggerson]

26. If you read my post

it's directed at people screaming about leaving the party.

It's not directed at people staying and offering criticism and working to change things from within, which is healthy AND warranted, imho.

READ THE FRIGGIN OP.

[jonnyblitz]

28. well, many people who are just criticizing are being told to leave

also..so they are all kinda BLENDING together for some of us, these STFU threads of similar tone. :shrug:

[ruggerson]

29. Not by me

I'm in favor of constructive criticism. And I realize that we are the party that is going to be a bit more, uh, raucous in our differing opinions than the troglodyte party. That's what makes us Democrats.

But, I'm totally over the "I'm leaving the party" swansong, self serving, childish sentiment amongst a certain minority. If they want to leave, fine, then leave. But they don't. They just stay and write more posts about how they're leaving.

[mike_c]

77. actually, a number of us have already left....

eom

[Clara T]

42. Don't forget Haiti

CBC as the usual exception

[ulysses]

27. I've been asking this for years here.

If centrists can win elections without the left, then why don't they?

If they can't, then why all the invitations to leave?

[Dr Fate]

56. Opposing Alito IS a centrist value!

Most centrists do not agree with him.

It's not even about center v. left anynore, it's about a willingness to oppose the far right.

That is why people like Hackett, even though they dont agree w/ him on every issue- because he is not a fucking chicken.

[cantstandbush]

31. Ok, I'll take my leave. Been nice! n/t

[Disturbed]

37. Democratic Underground.

This is not the Democratic Party site. This site has Dem Party members,Greens, Socialists, Social Libertarians, and others that still believe in the Democratic concepts and ideals that are contained in the Declaration of Independence, The United States Constitution and The Bill of Rights.

It obvious to me that most Republicans no longer care about or believe in the Democratic concepts and ideals that are contained in the Declaration of Independence, The United States Constitution and The Bill of Rights.

[LittleClarkie]

39. The only thing not really allowed is to campaign against the party

They'd rather folks did that on their own dime.

[TSIAS]

34. I think we all want Dems to succeed

Just because we don't like so-called Dems like Bob Casey Jr. doesn't mean we aren't libreral and want Repubs like Santorum to succeed.

[depakid]

35. Read the DU rules

Every couple of months someone posts something like this (usually out of sheer frustration- or denial).

[ruggerson]

47. From the rules:

Democratic Underground may not be used for political, partisan, or advocacy activity by supporters of any political party or candidate other than the Democratic Party or Democratic candidates. Supporters of certain other political parties may use Democratic Underground for limited partisan activities in political races where there is no Democratic Party candidate.

Do not post broad-brush smears against Democrats or the Democratic Party.

Now, I wonder what part of this paragraph third party advocates have a difficult time understanding.

[depakid]

72. Gee, I guess I missed something all these years

Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office. Democratic Underground is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, and comments posted here are not representative of the Democratic Party or its candidates.

Now, if one isn't supportive of traditional Democratic values, that might be one thing.

If one didn't want to see the Dems as they once were become the Majority party again- no matter what process would make that happen- that might be a different story.

My guess would be that the bottom line for most of us is -the ideas and ideals need to prevail- that's the prize- don't you think?

DU or any other site looking to recapture what we once had- or maybe someday move forward again isn't about Rah, Rah Rah- go blue team. It's about all of the policies that affect everyone here and all of our children and grandchildren.

And to the extent that individuals work against those long term interests- they ought to be criticized and people ought to take action.

If that means doing some things that you or others who can't see systems or think long term don't like- so be it.

The Republicans didn't build their majority in a day- but they got it- and maybe you might want to think about that- and consider stealing a few things from their playbook.

[Aaaargh]

40. It's part of the DLC's plan to drive Democrats out of the party

That is, they wish to rid themselves of the activists among traditional Democrats, and expecially those on the left, and rule over a docile membership that follows their lead.

See how, right now with the Alito vote pending and everything looking so discouraging, these little operatives on this forum start thread after thread, egging on those who say they're so angry at the spinelessness of the Democrats of the Senate that they want to leave the party?

DLCers like to claim to be "real" Democrats. But the question they can't answer convincingly is why they're Democrats at all. After all, there would be no reason for anyone who embraces the corporatist DLC agenda to choose the Democratic Party over the thoroughly corporatist Republican Party -- except to pursue the goal of neutralizing the party which traditionally has represented the interests of middle-class and working-class Americans.

Like it or not, our political system is structured to accommodate two major parties. If Republican-style corporatists can maintain control over the Democratic Party, those who stand in opposition to their goals will have no effective organization and apparatus to put up a fight from.

Despite all the disappointments and frustrations of our current situation, traditional Democrats would be FOOLS to abandon the structure of Democratic Party and go off wandering in the wilderness, trying to fight the corporatist political empire with sticks and stones.

The majority of ordinary Democratic party members and Democratic voters are traditional Democrats. Indeed, the majority of Americans, according to opinion polls, relate strongly to a traditional Democratic Party agenda. The party itself is extremely precious turf, and it belongs to us. Bleak as things may seem today, we traditional Democrats have a much better chance of regaining power over this government through fighting to take back the Democratic Party than by bailing out.

Don't take the bait. Do what the DLC DOESN'T want you to do: fight to take back the party that really belongs to you, and to all the ordinary Americans who, despite sometimes stumbling in the fog of corporate-media propaganda, fundamentally believe in those traditional Democratic Party values which are being betrayed by the big-money corruption of today's political milieu.

[snowbear]

43. Bullshit.

I read the first line of your post and it was enough for me.

Yeah.. there are Democrats who are affiliated with the DLC (Kerry, Gore, Clinton, etc..............)

And there are Democrats who are not affiliated with the DLC.

There are Democrats who are DCCC...

There are Democrats who are DNC.



I'd be a Democrat in the rain.. I'd be a Democrat on a train. I'd be a Democrat here or there, I'd be a Democrat anywhere!

If the candidate who can beat the ReTHUGS ass in any race in this nation is with the DNC, DLC, DCCC, D-Whatever.. then kudos to them and I hope like hell they wipe the floor with the R-THUG!

:mad: ANY DEMOCRAT IS BETTER THAN ANY REFUCKLICAN !!! :mad:

[bigjohn16]

44. Even Zell Miller? nt

[snowbear]

46. Uh.. no. Not Zell.

I'll bet anything that Zell from Hell has already changed his political affiliation.



5 bucks says he's now a registered card-carrying RETHUG.

[Dr Fate]

48. Or, DEMS could filibuster and unify & energize the base like never before.

n/t

[guidod]

50. Did you really believe

there was going to be a filibuster?

[Dr Fate]

53. Do you support a filibuster?

???

[guidod]

57. Yes I do support a

filibuster, but my life won't come to an end if it doesn't happen. Life goes on, shall we go as one or split apart?

[Dr Fate]

58. Okay, so get to your point. Was something I said incorrect?

To refresh your memory, I suggested that a filibuster would unify & strengthen the base like never before, as opposed to a "last straw" for those who are rightfully disillusioned with a party that constantly ignores the base.

[guidod]

60. I agree it would strengthen

the base but I refuse to put my eggs in one basket.

[Dr Fate]

63. And this thread is about blaming the base they failed to unify...

...as opposed to holding them accountable for not doing so.

[guidod]

64. I'm not saying that ruggerson is

right or wrong about 2006 or 2008 but what do you mean by failed to unify?

[Dr Fate]

65. Okay- assuming these "I'm leaving posts" are even sincere...

...then what I am saying is that if the DEMs filibustered, or if there was not the perception that we should expect even more cave-ins, then we would not have all these people saying they will leave.

Look- I doubt too many will leave- but I know it has made *me* less enthusiastic already. I'm really longing for DEMS to do something creative and surprising for once.

[guidod]

70. I don't think that many dems

will leave the party either. All of this has made me more enthusiastic knowing that our party has a lot o life in it. We've made a hell of a go at trying to stop this thing from happening by signing petitions, calling our senators and writing our senators. We've ALL worked very hard at this but with them in control of everything I couldn't see any other outcome. We have to keep pushing and pushing and pushing. Peace

[Dr Fate]

74. Good point- we did force a bunch of them to vote no at least. n/t

n/t

[guidod]

49. FINALLY!!

A voice of reason. Most every thread is full of this doomed crap. Trust me everybody, the sun will rise tomorrow.

Good post ruggerson.

[bigjohn16]

55. Yes the sun will rise tomorrow...

... at the same time it may set on a womens right to choose.

[guidod]

59. It may very well do that, I

hope not but it may. Do you think it's wise to divide the party? Complaining isn't going to change a thing, the repugs have total control and they know it. That's what will bring them down, the thirst for power.

[bigjohn16]

66. The party is already divided...

... they can't even unite to help protect the third and final branch of government from the right. If you're waiting for a scandal to bring down a Republican administration with a Republican controlled Congress and soon a Republican Supreme Court you'll be waiting a very long time. But I hope I'm wrong.

[guidod]

68. I don't feel the party

is divided. Who didn't unite? I think we all tried as hard as we could by signing the petitions, supporting our senators, calling and writing our senators every day. What does everyone expect to happen? They are in power of the Executive Branch, the Senate and the House, and if anyone thought there would be any other outcome for the Supreme Court than the confirmation of Alito is really living in a bubble. What did you expect?

[bigjohn16]

69. I expect a filibuster. What are they saving it for? nt

[guidod]

71. I really hope you're right.

Nothing would make me happier bigjohn16.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

54. KICK

:kick:

[radio4progressives]

62. Self Delete Duplicate posting n/t

[McCamy Taylor]

67. "I'll hold my breath until you fillibuster Alito" is normal Dem behavior

Is all cool. We are all Democrats here. Democrats dont goose step like Republicans too.

[orleans]

73. then make the calls!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2392848&mesg_id=2392848

[wiley]

75. YESTERDAY was the most depressing day of the year

according to some scientists. Today, and henceforth, I fight for the Democrats alone. And Yes, we need to fillibuster. Let the Repukes use the "nucular option". People need to see how these criminals are running this country. And also, maybe we need to focus more on exposing and oussting Republicans more ferociously, just like the Repukes do with the taste of blood in their mouths.

[OneBlueSky]

78. "We're going to take back the Congress in '06 and . . .

we're going to take back the White House in '08" . . .

not as long as BushCo controls the voting process we're not . . . they won't allow it . . . they CAN'T allow it . . .

[rman]

80. It's not Democratic Mainstream

If a "real democrat" is one who thinks the Dem party should not be criticized, you may be in for an unpleasant surprise. DU polls and post recommendations show those are outnumbered by about 1 to 10.

[JNelson6563]

83. They are on a mission

Some hail from a forum where there is much talk of DU (they really hate the place but post their stuff here anyway) and where Dems are considerd sub-human. Those who actually do anything about improving the political situation are considered misguided suckers.

Yeah, they hate DU but they troll here for new members and post their stuffhere cause there's a sizable audience. They are easy to identify, even the ones who think they are "clever". You will see that no matter how "part of the team" they act in their posts, there's always at least a tiny bit of Dems-suck sandwiched in there somewhere.

Julie