So Robert Byrd and Cindy Sheehan are officially drunk on the koolaid

[Seabiscuit]

See: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2393924

and: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2391802&mesg_id=2391802

I never imagined in my most demented dreams that I'd ever post this.

[acmejack]

1. At least you are half sane.

Let us know when you figure out which half is demented.

[Seabiscuit]

10. Spoken like a true "know-it-all".

[400Years]

2. so those milllion iraqi kids don't count eh?

even madeline albright acknowledged the death and destruction caused by the sanctions and said it was worth it.

[Seabiscuit]

11. You can't compare Clinton's agreement to international sanctions

with Bush's criminal bombing, torturing and murdering innocent Iraqis.

What's worse is for Cindy to publicly pretend that Clinton's actions were worse than Bush's.

Bush has committed war crimes. Clinton did not. Clinton's agreement to sanctions was sanctioned by the U.N.

[fujiyama]

22. Sheehan was mistaken

in claiming Clinton killed more Iraqis than Bush (simply because it is impossible to attribute all the deaths to the sanctions and Saddam also deserves some blame), but at the same time, it is important we don't brush aside acts by him and his administration as justified just because it was sanctioned by the UN.

The UN SC will only function as far as the individual members allow it. The US and UK either vetoed or threatened to veto any modifications of the sanctions for sometime. Though by a certain point the oil for food program was made flexible enough to the point where Iraq was at near pre GWI oil production.

[The2ndWheel]

23. Fair enough

So murder sanctioned by the UN is the good kind of murder. Understood.

I absolutely love it. I really do. Those sanctions, supported by Clinton or not, were never going to hurt anyone BUT the Iraqi civilians.

Bush having a third party kill Iraqi's = very, very bad.

Clinton having a third party kill Iraqi's = what can you do, it was sanctioned by the third party.

So if the UN were to ever(and obviously it would never happen, because it's 1)America, 2)UN, 3)Evereyone else) apply economic sanctions on the US for something our "leaders" do one day, knowing full well that those sanctions will only touch those at or near the bottom, and some great leader from another country supports them, it will be worth the price, because the UN sanctioned it?

Screw Clinton. Screw the UN. Screw Bush. Screw the whole system for making it possible to for that logic to even exist.

I hate this goddamn country(not the actual land, you know what I mean). I hate the way this country was built. I hate what this country is doing during the 2000's. I hate what this country did during the glorious 1990's. I hate what this country did during the phamtom 1980's. I hate what this country will do in the 2000-teens. I hate what this country will do during the 2020's. Since we've done it every other decade, I guarantee it will happen in those, and others, as well.

Murder sanctioned by the UN is fine and dandy. My ass it is. But go right ahead, keep excusing Clinton. Lets continue voting for these people, and then being shocked when nothing really changes.

I don't even know how to end this post, so...

[mom cat]

3. Has there been OFICCIAL confirmation?

I am getting mixed stories. Lets keep calling if there is any hope.

[Seabiscuit]

12. I can only confirm that Byrd betrayed us with his vote for Alito.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

15. He hasn't voted for Alito yet. The only Senators who have actually

voted are those on the Judiciary committee:

MEMBERS

Arlen Specter
CHAIRMAN, PENNSYLVANIA

Orrin G. Hatch
UTAH

Patrick J. Leahy
RANKING DEMOCRATIC MEMBER, VERMONT

Charles E. Grassley
IOWA

Edward M. Kennedy
MASSACHUSETTS

Jon Kyl
ARIZONA

Joseph R. Biden, Jr.
DELAWARE

Mike DeWine
OHIO

Herbert Kohl
WISCONSIN

Jeff Sessions
ALABAMA

Dianne Feinstein
CALIFORNIA

Lindsey Graham
SOUTH CAROLINA

Russell D. Feingold
WISCONSIN

John Cornyn
TEXAS

Charles E. Schumer
NEW YORK

Sam Brownback
KANSAS

Richard J. Durbin
ILLINOIS

Tom Coburn
OKLAHOMA

http://judiciary.senate.gov/members.cfm

[Seabiscuit]

19. OK, then, he declared his intent to vote for Alito in his floor speech.

C-SPAN has shown it as a counted vote (they are keeping tabs of declared intentions during the Senators' speeches).

Of course, there has not yet been a single *formal* vote. That will happen next week unless there's a filibuster.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

24. True enough. It's just that it ain't over until it's over. n/t

[ChiciB1]

27. It's Over... He Said He Was A Federalist And Won't Go Against

the Constitution! Whatever THAT means!

Byrd IS going to vote YES!!

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

28. You sure that was Byrd? He told Frist if they tried to do the nuclear

option then they would have a fight on their hands.

He is a part of the gang of 14, however.

He does carry a copy of the constitution in his pocket.

In his many years in the Senate he has supported filibusters in the past.

[ChiciB1]

29. I Heard It On C-Span This AM... Almost Positive That's Where

Didn't have anything else on except Free Speech TV after WJ... so it must have been C-Span.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

30. Maybe he is feeling bound by his part in the gang of 14, and

believes this isn't extraordinary circumstances.

So in his mind maybe supporting a filibuster is like an invitation to the nuclear option, which would indeed be destructive of the constituion etc.

[ChiciB1]

31. Could Be... But All The Same

It's a vote FOR Alito!!

The guy will be sitting regardless of ANY filibuster. But at least if there IS a filibuster that shows SOME movement by the Senators! However, much too late!!

[joefree1]

4. Wow, idols turn out not to be perfect. Whodda thunk?

I guess we'll leave sheepdom to the repukes. Calling all Adults, we need you in the Democratic Party. Drones please report to the GOP.

[Seabiscuit]

13. Idols scmidols. I expected more from Byrd and Sheehan. That's all.

[400Years]

5. Madeleine Albright's Quote "It's Worth It" to sacrifice half million kids

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1084

"We Think the Price Is Worth It"
Media uncurious about Iraq policy's effects- there or here

By Rahul Mahajan

Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.

--60 Minutes (5/12/96)

Then-Secretary of State Madeleine Albright's quote, calmly asserting that U.S. policy objectives were worth the sacrifice of half a million Arab children, has been much quoted in the Arabic press. It's also been cited in the United States in alternative commentary on the September 11 attacks (e.g., Alexander Cockburn, New York Press, 9/26/01).

But a Dow Jones search of mainstream news sources since September 11 turns up only one reference to the quote--in an op-ed in the Orange Country Register (9/16/01). This omission is striking, given the major role that Iraq sanctions play in the ideology of archenemy Osama bin Laden; his recruitment video features pictures of Iraqi babies wasting away from malnutrition and lack of medicine (New York Daily News, 9/28/01). The inference that Albright and the terrorists may have shared a common rationale--a belief that the deaths of thousands of innocents are a price worth paying to achieve one's political ends--does not seem to be one that can be made in U.S. mass media.

It's worth noting that on 60 Minutes, Albright made no attempt to deny the figure given by Stahl--a rough rendering of the preliminary estimate in a 1995 U.N. Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) report that 567,000 Iraqi children under the age of five had died as a result of the sanctions. In general, the response from government officials about the sanctions’ toll has been rather different: a barrage of equivocations, denigration of U.N. sources and implications that questioners have some ideological axe to grind (Extra!, 3-4/00).

[tatertop]

6. That hideous comment will haunt her forever

as it should

[jus_the_facts]

26. They were also going on 12 years of *intellegence* from Raygun/Poppy....

....it's all a cluster FUCK regardless of who's in the WH..it's the PENTAGON that's in control. :eyes:

[faithnotgreed]

7. because cindy called out bill clinton?

she is passionate in her care for human life and im glad to hear her give at least a little push back to the clinton machinery
clearly there is no one in our known politics remotely so bad as bush but i am glad that she speaks the truth as she sees it

even with that there is of course no comparison between bush and clinton (and i really dont care for clinton)

byrd on the other hand
he is a man of his southern heritage and era so i guess i am still surprised and really disappointed in him

[Seabiscuit]

14. No. See above (post #11).

[faithnotgreed]

18. truly with all due respect seabiscuit did you read my post

i applauded cindys care for human life
and twice noted there is no comparison between clinton and bush

[PATRICK]

8. When young and in power

too effectual in the wrong causes. Now older and wiser too ineffectual to do good. It seems to me that the crisis over the filibuster pushed him on principle, not that I would agree with many of his arguments and generally, the Dems aren't facing up to the reality of the crisis and what should done, what should have been done.

So the Alito thing may have come down to making the choice a partisan ideological necessity with overtones of political necessity. Something made Byrd balk on principle rather than what some might suggest is campaign year weakness. Often ignored is his lingering conservative stands which go to prove he can't see the true battle lines of the crisis even when he sees some of them and will not sacrifice the order of the Senate even for its own survival. In these polarized times it seems quizzical and altogether offends everyone. Offending everyone is not a proof of rightness or impartial integrity.

When I told my brother about the searing speeches in defense against the Iraq war by Byrd and not most party regulars, his natural comment was: Byrd? Are things THAT bad?

It is not a matter of loyalty or trust no one or idolizing apparent heroes, but facing people as they are. Cookie cutter Repugs we can only hope will grow stale and crumble and leave the divided Dems making rational practical arguments in good order that the best will prevail. It is just a sign of how the party has not risen to the occasion fast enough that we have come to this- again.

Those who expect this to be a litmus, a bellwether of resistance at least, still have no expectation that what must be from other idols, will ever happen. That situation cannot be corrected by a single sigh of relief, which we likely will not receive even in the form of a weak filibuster. Apparently we have to do more for the party than what the party can or will do for us. I think we knew that for sure at least by the end of 2002.

[INDIA]

9. Does this mean...

that we can stop apologizing for Byrd's KKK connection? I'm really getting tired of defending him when I know that he's a scumbag for having ANYTHING to do with that organization.

[GemMom]

17. That would be...

my question as well.

[PATRICK]

25. We can stop pretending

that like Bush's cocaine, probable illegal abortion, AWOL and all subsequent crimes they don't matter. it matters. Even the most radical convert carries the flaw and the remnants, the habits of choice over.
It would be nice to stop pretending that every decent politician, like Kennedy, is perfect, always totally admirable. It we get too misty eyed and blinded by the amnesiac needs of idol worship or discipleship it is not real. And for good people unwilling to tell as many lies and hurt as many doubters as necessary it is unsustainable. Is that a reason to surrender to the truly evil?

If our human reps can't hack it don't head for the hills- there is no place safe to go- head for Capitol Hill.

I was going to say hack it with Hackett, a horrible jingle temptation, I know.

[babylonsister]

32. It's now Friday, in Texas it's almost midnight. Do you feel the same? nt

[berni_mccoy]

16. Hey Seabiscuit,

I've felt exactly the same way as you today. I can't believe so many here are going to absolve Saddam of his responsiblity to comply with UN Sanction requirements in order to help his own people, let alone recognize that Saddam blocked food and humanitarian aide to his own people.

So many here are as likely to blame Clinton as republicans are. I've been amazed the last two days at this...

[Seabiscuit]

20. Thank you. That's how I see it.

[fujiyama]

21. Sometimes...

certain personalities develop a strong following. Unfortunately though, it's also thought of at that point that they can say or do no wrong.

I supported Sheehan when she went after Bush and still support her role in the anti war movement. I don't agree and hang by every word she says though. She's one women, with whom I agree with on certain issues and disagree with on others. And there are other times when she, just like all others, misleads and/or misrepresents the truth.

Byrd has always been a moderate to conservative maverick senator. I am not surprised by this vote. I believed he made a bold and insightful speech on the war, but there are many, many votes of Byrd I can disagree with.

These people are human. It's dumb to worship them.