If you replaced "Jew" with "Liberal", would this be the 3rd Reich?

[Fire Walk With Me]

Those who study history in order to repeat it, such as newty boy, piss me off.

I am interested but haven't had time to study, if there is a definite similarity in the increasing demonization and dehumanization of "liberals" as with Jews prior to WW2. Savage's book on liberalism being a mental disorder comes to mind, as do the endless streams of spew from the right wing noise machine and media outlets such as Limbaugh and crew.

Anyone have a classic German speech handy, and can edit it to "liberal" instead of Jew?

Another Captain Obvious insight.

[saltpoint]

1. BushCO prompted those "I Can't Believe It's Not Hitler" stickers.

The Bush administration specifically and the GOP generally have made it a point to isolate, intimidate, and smear the character of any group that stands in their way.

[TahitiNut]

84. Like this?

[BlueEyedSon]

95. ROTFLMAO!!!

why no pic of bush?

[pitohui]

2. no

you could make a better argument for replacing "jew" w. "black," i see no concerted effort to round up and jail random liberals, but i do see a concerted effort to round up and incarcerate blacks in particular

[Doctor_J]

51. the effort to round up and jail jews came much later

First they were marginalized and then encouraged to emigrate. Your sense of the sequence of things in 1930's Germany is wrong - and yes, we are headed that way here.

[BrklynLiberal]

3. It already is, and those who think that they are not the target

should remember Pastor Neimoller's famous quote, because eventually, they WILL be the target...

"First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out.
And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me."
Martin Niemoller

[im10ashus]

4. Not in my opinion.

6 million plus Jews lost their lives. There's no comparison in my book.

[BrklynLiberal]

7. It just has not happened yet.. Wait until the poor and the old and the

sick start dying.
Only several thousand in the Hurricanes of the Gulf Coast, only several hundred taken away without trial or charges and kept in jail for unlimited amount of time...or taken to foreign countries to be tortured.
It isn't you or your loved ones, so it isn't really happening.

[im10ashus]

18. We could certainly count that as the same type atrocity.

So you won't get an argument out of me there. We have already seen them knocking on doors and illegally wiretapping.

[Fire Walk With Me]

10. "Pre-war".

As in "building up to war through the creation of an enemy within".

[Coastie for Truth]

72. How many American lost their lives in Katrina

because of FEMA inaction - and even FEMA actions (keeping the NGO Emergency Relief Agencies out) and the post-Katrina coverup.

I worked on relocation - it was racist and electoral -- at the FEMA - DHS - White House level.

I was there - and I saw it.

[unblock]

5. today's gays are hitler's jews; today's liberals are hitler's communists

imho.

[justabob]

62. Yes, I think that is right nt

[cobaindrain]

104. todays gays AND blacks are hitlers jews,

and Savage, who is a Jew by the way, has morphed into todays version of Streicher. My have times changed.

[BrklynLiberal]

6. Here is the classic "They Thought They Were Free"

Aren't we already there?

<snip>
What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

"This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.
<snip>

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it - please try to believe me - unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, "regretted," that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these "little measures" that no "patriotic German" could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.
<snip>

http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html

[im10ashus]

11. That MAY be where we are heading.

Unfortunately. But we still have it better than during the Holocaust. IMHO.

[BrklynLiberal]

24. BushCo has better control of the media, so I am not sure that is true.

Like Lemmings, the people go willingily to the edge of the cliff, and jump.

[im10ashus]

26. Sad but true.

I saw a post earlier about CNN being so blah, blah, blah and I can only feel no surprise about it. I don't even watch the damn news on the telly. Give me an internet connection and I am the most informed person that I know.

[SurfRidem]

8. Not at all...not even close.

If you think this is anything like that, you should ask for a refund on your education.

[Iktomiwicasa]

54. Agreed...

I dare say that most white liberals don't have a fucking clue what it is like to be on the recieving end of serious persecution....

[beaconess]

56. Hear hear

[Cats Against Frist]

77. Depends at what point in Hitler's reign

that you're comparing our situation to. There is no mistaking that right-wing authoritarianism, cultural supremacy, patriarchy, nationalism, Empire, conflated business and governmental sectors, and magical thinking were components of Naziism. Are they marching liberals into death chambers? No. Not at this point -- at this point, to compare what's happening to the Holocaust would be wrong. To compare it to the rise of out-and-out fascism in the early 20th century, would not be ludicrous, at all.

[converted_democrat]

80. B.S.... While I agree that we are not there yet, there is no denying that

that is the path we are headed down.. They go out of there way to paint liberals as "Osama like." The day that the recording was released from Osama, CNN and MSNBC both had commentators on (Liveoak has the video saved) explaining the "parallels" in what Osama wants, and what liberals want, which is pure BS.. We aren't there yet, but it isn't for the lack of trying..

[stepnw1f]

101. And You Need to Chill on the Reefer (nt)

[savemefromdumbya]

9. Muslim for Jew

Bush and Cheny make the sheep frightened of Muslims

[Fire Walk With Me]

13. They're definitely feeding the Kristians...

Wars, and rumors of wars; the old Crusade thing, Isreal...

There's an entire dimension of religious metaphor in "Apocalypse Now", but I tend to ignore those types of things, excepting in BushCo.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

60. they are CASHTAINS

those fools that try turning christianity into s death cult only worship one thing, CASH! Bushism is just one faith in the belief system of Cashtainity... The freepers like us calling them christians or even making the close distinction of Kristians, which I want to compliment you on instead of honoring the thieves with the name they stole.

[tocqueville]

12. when "Liberals" will be hanging from trees

then you'll have the 4th Reich

not there yet...

[BrklynLiberal]

14. Liberal is the name they give to anyone who opposes their policies.

How much "Jewish blood" did one hav to actually have to be considered a candidate for the Concentration Camps in Hitler's Germany? What did it take to be considered an enemy of the state during McCarthy's HUAC hearings?
That is exactly the environment that BushCo is creating in this country.
You can deny it and refuse to see the parallels, but that will not stop it from happening

[tocqueville]

25. the US wasn't a facist state during McCarthy

even though segregation was legal and commies seen everywhere, some even executed and imprisoned.

The fact that all that was legally overturned showed that democracy prevailed.

What I meant is that if you reach a level were people are massively deported, executed based on their political or ethnical status and media not even reporting it or condoning it, you have a facist state.

If the US was a facist state today, DU wouldn't exist, most would be in camps and Skinner tortured in Gitmo. It's not yet the case.

When the opposition is SILENCED, you have a dicatorship, not before.

[BrklynLiberal]

35. So, we are not there.....yet.

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it - please try to believe me - unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, "regretted," that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these "little measures" that no "patriotic German" could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.
<snip>

[tocqueville]

36. not yet, but beware...

another 9/11 is all what they need

[BrklynLiberal]

37. Exaactly. Once they have Alito on the SC. That is how they will keep W

in the White House.:tinfoilhat:

Another 9/11, and suspend elections, and Alito will be the majority voter to ok it.

[Cha]

29. Yeah, and we don't want it to

be there, yet..or EVER!

[sarcasmo]

75. The detainment camps are being built as we speak.

[WilliamPitt]

15. How many liberals do you know

that have been evicted from their homes, herded into ghettos, sent by train to concentration camps, shot, gassed, burned, buried alive and/or made to serve as slave laborers while wearing paper uniforms?

I don't know any.

Hyperbole like this makes us look completely and totally out of touch. Things are bad now - very very very very bad - but to compare what liberals are dealing with here to what Jews endured under the Reich is to dishonor the Shoah and to make us appear addled.

In other words, to answer your question, no.

[BrklynLiberal]

19. So instead of using the word "Liberal" use the words "anyone who

opposes BushCo", "enemy combatant" or whatever description BushCo will give to those they wish to eliminate from their road to dominate.

If Alito makes it to the Supreme Court, one of the final safeguards to individual liberties and safety is gone.

I do not believe that BushCo will relinquish the Presidency to a Democrat if Alito is on the Supreme Court.

[Fire Walk With Me]

43. I am aware that 6 million opponents to BushCo haven't been killed.

I'm not comparing the total actions of the 3rd Reich to the current situation; I'm comparing the "very very bad" part to what happened in Germany prior to the war and whether it is presages a similar disaster.

Is there a direct comparison per those who oppose BushCo and how BushCo malign them? In the overall agenda of polarizing a nation and seizing power and control and resources through doing so? In exciting expectation in those who hold grudges and own guns, and who wish that theirs to be the only belief system?

BushCo indeed use the Muslim, the homosexual, the liberal, the anti-Christmas fer God's sake as alarmist polarizing elements. Just like the "Imminent Threat" of Saddam's WMD, the pending demise of Social Security if they don't somehow come into control of all of that money, of the bible being banned if you don't vote Republican, etc.

They're using almost everything as levers, as vectors, against those who stand in the way of the ultra-right agenda. And we talk while they seize and consolidate power.

[Just Me]

44. Will, they are utilizing every manipulative means to shut people up.

They have engaged psy-ops far more sophisticated than those Hitler was able to engage.

No, they are not YET rounding folks up (although they are economically pushing tens of millions into ghetto-like circumstances). However, massive detention centers ARE IN FACT being built. Contingency plans for domestic military operations are in place.

[Yupster]

66. If they were using every means to shut people up, then

we wouldn't be warning about it on DU.

[Raydawg1234]

78. Do you have a link for the detention centers?

[converted_democrat]

81. Here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2062553

[Stockholm]

65. Beware of hyperbole

But adigal is making some intereting points about "Night" by Elie Wiesel.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2398440

[rman]

106. different methods, same results

homeless, check
ghettos, check
concentration camps (FEMA camps), check
imprisoned without trial, check

Beyond that, the 3rd Reich was already established when the holocaust started.
Also it isn't said that the current situation is comparable to 'Hitler's Germany' but rather to the period of the rise to power of the Nazis.

It's not that much of a hyperbole.

[Fire Walk With Me]

16. Good points all.

They definitely use Kristian "enemies" to crystallize the ultra-right wing into alliance, as well as sexual fear and social fear in the more mainstream.

One of my points is that they are attempting, and succeeding, to polarize the country on any number of issues, with themselves as the center of power and deepening control.

I don't know if Hitler actually believed what he was saying. Actions are louder than words, and I'm watching plenty of actions and agenda, deepening, and thickening. We don't need a world war for them to truly fuck things up for all of us.

A teacher told me that the gap between those who just want to live their lives, and those who want to control them, would continue to open up, eventually so wide that it could no longer be ignored. I find him to be correct, and watch as it continues to be promoted into festering by those in search of total power.

[orwell]

17. The Nazis...

...were amateurs compared to the modern permanent warfare state. The so-called "western democracies" led by the Untied States are far more effective propagandists. We have mastered a permanent state of terror, numbing the populations into compliance.

In some repects both Orwell and Huxley were right. Orwell's dark visions of Big Brother are a current reality, but liberally mixed with Huxley's Brave New World thesis of fantastic pleasures for the compliant.

We kill with far more effectiveness, far more obscurity, couching our slaughter with words like "defending freedom", "liberation", and my favorite "support the troops." The level of compliance is startling. Even "pacifists" cower when faced with the specter of the sacred mantra of "9/11."

When all is said and done, when left with the smoking crater of human remains that prys open the door to hell, we might all wonder, as the flash of nuclear fire fills our vision, how we were led so easily to our own slaughter by a small group of fanatics focused on power and ego over moral principal.

The 4th Reich is upon us.

[BrklynLiberal]

21. Perfectly said.

:applause:

We are the frogs in that pot of cool water being slowly brought to a boil, and we are sitting in it smiling, and splashing around like it is a lilypond.

[im10ashus]

23. Wow!

That's so ominous. After figuring my taxes this week, though, it seems rather accurate.

[Fire Walk With Me]

46. How much of each tax dollar goes to the mil/indus complex?

It's something over 50% on the federal level, isn't it?

It's good to be the king, in a war economy.

[Just Me]

31. OMG. I see it.

x(

[Rocknrule]

20. If you did that in "Treason," it would be "Mein Kampf"

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BrklynLiberal]

30. Mainstream media CONSTANTLY censors liberal spokespeople, on

on the rare occasions they are allowed to actually appear.
You virtually NEVER see truly balanced reporting in the media, TV or paper.

The so-called criticism you mention is like a powder-puff in a Burlesque Show. It accomplishes nothing except provoke laughter. No real questions are asked and no real points are exposed.

No ideolgies are targeted? How would you like to be a Muslim in the US today? Or any person who happened to have a complexion that looked like he might be from the Middle East?

What parallel universe do you live in?

EDIT: I guess it is safe to assume that you are not gay, African-American, in poor health, or have serious financial problems.

[Gato Moteado]

33. what are you smoking dude?

whatever it is, it's mighty good stuff. you're hallucinating. either that or you're insane.

[meunier33]

41. * isn't Hitler, he's Mussolini.

Mussolini used his false charisma, aggressive nationalism, total control of the media and intimidation of political rivals to destroy democracy. Mussolini founded his own political movement to accomplish this, sort of like * and PNAC. Like *, Mussolini also used war veterans to put down his political enemies and took up anti-union policies. Both rulers personally took over government ministries. Mussolini used Blackshirts to enforce authority thru terror in areas of anarchy, * uses Blackwater. Under both dictatorships, the effectiveness of parliamentary system was virtually abolished though its forms were publicly preserved. Fascism relies on a general feeling of anxiety and fear among the middle-class in place in both the time periods I am comparing. One can only hope that * lies hanging at Ft. Leavenworth (by the government) like Mussolini did in Loreto Square.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fire Walk With Me]

45. Welcome to DU, and yes, I've heard this mentioned as well.

Fascism is defined by Mussolini and what, the merger of corporate interests and political structure? This is a given. It's the continuing mechanism of "you are either with us or we'll write books calling you insane" that points to an unhappy ending. I just don't see those who have been manipulating this entire country for decades to just give up and go away. The agenda isn't complete.

[rman]

67. I don't think there's a crucial difference between Mussolini and Hitler

Much of what you describe was done by Hitler as well. H used brownshirt where M used blackshirts.

All these types (including *) are despots. Minority rule always requires suppression of the majority. The methods used always involve abuse of power, deception, seduction, intimidation and some amount of violence.

[Cha]

27. That's a good one.

They've got all sorts of heritages in that Liberal sect.

Thanks for pointing this out.

[Just Me]

28. I've made that parallel on many occasions. How can I not do so?

:shrug:

[OffWithTheirHeads]

32. No, It is the 4th Reich

and after re reading The Rise and fall of the Third Reich, the similarities are truly disturbing BUT...Hitler was a much better orator. Uhh, Uhh, Ummm, He he. If I were God, instead of The Flying Spaghetti Monster, George the stupid would clean porta potties for a living and get paid minimum wage for it.

[DBoon]

34. A better comparison might be Mussolini

It took years for Il Duce to eliminate his parlimentary opposition and declare a dictatorship.

You don't need extermination ovens to have fascism. Being a long way from the 3rd reich can still be a very bad place.

[BrklynLiberal]

40. Excellent point.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

50. being a long way from reality can be bad too

The reality is that NO ONE but top-level bushco brass knows how close we really are... This is far and away the most secretive administration in history. Has anyone here ever been to Stalag Guantanamo?

[kenny blankenship]

38. Hitler actually did this in Nazi propaganda

there were two dark threats to the Volk: Jews (a race/religion) and Bolshevists (a leftist ideology), but though they were two, they weren't separate.

In Nazi propaganda, Judaism and Bolshevism were often used as interchangeable terms, and even described explicitly as conjoined threats. Bolshevism came from Judaism, Hitler would say, and in turn, the taint of Judaism if left unchecked would reduce the German people to Bolshevism.

It's a trick of association. All those who hated Jews learned by Hitler's use of this equation to direct the same feeling towards the Social Democrats and Communist Party. All those who hated Socialism and Marxism were encouraged to see these as a racial taint imported into the pure German mind by the alien people, as a tool used by this alien people to trick and subdue the freedom loving Germans.

The corresponding strategy of the American Far-Right has been to persistently portray liberals as nothing more than the political mask of minority groups trying to steal as much as possible for the group. "Dislike black|hispanic|gay people? Then you should hate liberals because all "liberalism" is is a front for thieving black|hispanic|gay people who want special rights to take your money and invade your communities." People with racial animosities towards minorities are encouraged to paint liberalism (which might otherwise benefit them economically) with the same hatred they feel for a constituency traditionally associated with the liberal cause. And those with contempt for the economic priorities of American liberalism are likewise encouraged by Rightwing rhetoric to be callous towards the rights and conditions of racial minorities and gay people. The Right always defines the national community exclusively--that is with a heavy emphasis on maintaining a list of those who are not wanted, whose existence poses a challenge or a threat to the preservation of the identity of the community (an identity of shared blood, religion and language, as they perceive it). Accordingly they pursue a solidarity of hatred, seeking to bind together people who dislike on the basis of race, or religion, or language, or sexual orientation,etc. in common cause against the forces of economic and legal equality, (which if promoted in law, would tend to erase those exclusive distinctions within the national community).

[Doctor_J]

53. Well spaketh, KB

Hitler, mostly through his own pwerful oratory, managed to connect Jews with Bolsheviks in the minds of die Volken, and was also anti-union and in favor of upward wealth distribution.

Smirk, mostly via the mass media which no longer even pretend to have any balance, has connected minorities with liberals, and as such is able to blame "liberalism" for all the problems in the country.

The parallels are striking.

[bloom]

99. well said

That whole thing is also why it is disturbing to me that the DLC are on the "pacifists are traitors" (or at least anti-American) bandwagon.

Those of us who might convince others that the US doesn't have a right to go invading countries willy-nilly and torturing people - using wives as bait - have to silenced or at least ridiculed.

And it's easy to forget - we never saw that other round of torture photos - that apparently included children - and which probably would have turned many more against the war/invasion/occupation than there are already.

And you have to go looking for the photos of white phosphorus victims if you want to see them.

I suppose some people think the worst thing that has happened is a pile of naked men. The propaganda campaign and the murder of journalists has been pretty effective.

The Republicans are good at what they are good at - but what they are good at is no good.

[Cassandra]

39. Or Rwanda.

They had the same years of hate radio until part of the population grabbed machetes and chopped up the "other", even their neighbors and family members.

[Syrinx]

47. there are definite similarities which cannot be denied

Not the Third Reich, per se, but with pre-Third Reich Hitler and Germany.

Of course the similarities between 9/11 and the Reichstag fire have been noted, as have been the resultant strains of militant nationalism. Like Hitler did, Bush has practiced an extreme and ruthless form of top-down party discipline. Hitler used the Enabling Act to seize legislative power from the parliament, much the way Bush is using the theory of "unitary executive" and "signing statements." The purge of career military officers in important roles by the Bush administration bears some resemblance to Hitler's "Night Of The Long Knives" in which Hitler assumed total control over the Storm Troopers. Hitler's military officers also swore a personally loyalty to Hitler, not to the country of Germany.

So we are not in the Third Reich YET, but there is more than a little similarity to the way things played out in Germany in the Thirties. And I find that peculiar news story from yesterday about Halliburton and the detention camps more than a little disturbing.

http://news.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=us/9-3&fp=43d9fb8757b33952&ei=QYvZQ4rfBNCSabC3taQD&url=http%3A//www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/prn/texas/3608687.html&cid=1103752576

[Karenina]

48. Concentration camps, anyone?

...

[Jeffersons Ghost]

49. why switch those out

In early Third Reich Germany the Social Democrats were one of the first groups Hitler and his Gestapo rounded up and sent to his camps. Instead of Jews, how about Moslems? Instead of a Reichstag Fire, how about a World Trade Center disaster? Hey, did yo guys see where Dur Fuhrer just expanded his uniform devision of the US SS again? They have smart-looking black uniforms just like the original SS.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

52. Disgusting anti-semitic N*zi propaganda, aka "talking points"

"Background: The N'zis were always worried about those Germans who did not accept anti-Semitism. In this article from the party monthly for propagandists, the writer provides ten responses to the most common objections they encountered to N'zi anti-Semitic measures. These were arguments intended for everyday use in conversation with fellow citizens.

The source: Kurt Hilmar Eitzen, "Zehn Knüppel wider die Judenknechte," Unser Wille und Weg (6) 1936, pp. 309-310.


--
Ten Responses to Jewish Lackeys
by Kurt Hilmar Eitzen


--

There are still Jewish lackeys today who attempt to disrupt our storm attack on the Jewish world rulers, trying to stop us or even cause us to fall. The following hints show how one can reply to these arguments by our opponents, or even turn their arguments against them.

Argument 1: "You say that religion is a private matter. But you fight against the Jewish religion!" Counterargument: "Actually, the Jewish religion is nothing other than a doctrine to preserve the Jewish race." (Adolf H'tler). "In resisting all government attempts to nationalize them, the Jews build a state within the state (Count Helmuth von Moltke). "To call this state a 'religion' was one of the cleverest tricks ever invented." (Adolf Hitl'r). "From this first lie that Jewry is a religion, not a race, further lies inevitably follow." (Adolf H'tler).

Argument 2: "There are decent Jews, after all!" — Counterargument: "This little phrase 'after all' proves that they are rare exceptions of no significance to our battle against Jewry as a whole. But Martin Luther saw four hundred years ago that this "decency," proven by charitable deeds done in as public a manner as possible, is nothing but a hidden cost of business, to repaid a thousand times by uneducated Germans. "Know, dear Christian, and have no doubts about it, that next to the Devil you have no more bitter, poisonous and determined enemy than a genuine Jew. . . If they do something good for you, it is not because they love you, but because they need room to live with us, so they have to do something. But their heart remains as I have said!"

Argument 3: "The Jew has better prices than the German businessman." — Counterargument: Any crook can sell junk. Jewish crooks have driven thousands of German businessmen to bankruptcy with the glittering trash in their department store palaces. When someone does get good products more cheaply from the Jews than from Germans, it is only because the united Jewish firms force down prices from the manufacturers, which means reducing workers' wages. He who has bought good products cheaply from the Jew should never forget that the curse of a German worker and the tears of his hungry children come with them!

Argument 4: "There are also 'white Jews' . — Counterargument: "That speaks against the Jews, not for them! The fact that one calls the crooks among us 'white Jews' is proof that being a Jew implies something bad. Otherwise, one would call crooked Jews 'yellow Christians.' The fact that there are so many 'white Jews' among us proves that the destructive Jewish spirit has already infected wide circles of our population. It is a warning to us that we have to take up the battle against the Jewish world plague everywhere." (Joseph Goebb'ls). That is why Point 24 of our party program states: "The party battles the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and outside of us."..."

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/responses.htm

[Cobalt Violet]

55. They are starting to replace Liberal with Democrat.

All Democrats.

[woo me with science]

57. i guess they'll be coming to get you any minute for this public message.

oops, and me, too!

we must both have a death wish, huh?

[HornBuckler]

58. In response to Savage's/Weiner's book

I say I believe that modern day proud Republicans DO INDEED have some sort of psychological/physiological disorder/difference than we do. Paint me with the same brush as Weiner, except I am not a racist/sexist/egocentric psycho f-wad.

Or to put it another way - I am his polar opposite - I say the same things about his thinking as he does mine (although I would like to believe I base my statements on fact, rather than belief)

I dunno, maybe I am crazy.

edit: typos!

[BrklynLiberal]

59. kick

[rman]

61. haven't had a "kristalnacht" yet

http://www.kristalnacht.org/

But other then that it's getting pretty close to being a reincarnation of the 3rd Reich.

[LiberalAndProud]

63. I recently read that the Nazis wiped out the commies first.

== substitute Dems (OH, they already did)

Then they went after the Jews.
== substitute Muslims or Arabs- Same thing ain't it?



NO, are you kidding? This is NOTHING like the 3rd Reich.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

64. Martin Niemöller

There are several versions of the well-known statement attributed to the German anti-Nazi activist, Pastor Martin Niemöller (his family name can also be writted without the umlaut as "Niemoeller"). The following is said, by someone who heard him speak at Columbia Theological Seminary in Decautur GA in 1959 (or 1960), to be what he actually said:

In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me —
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

[LiberalAndProud]

68. Great poem ...

But this is what I was reading:
==========================

26 July 46

The second object, the suppression of all democratic institutions, was comparatively simple. The necessary laws were passed to outlaw trade unions. The Reichstag became a farce directly the opposition parties had been dissolved and their members had been put in concentration camps. The witness Severing has spoken of the treatment of the Reichstag members. In 1932, on Von Papen's order he, who was chief of the Prussian Ministry of the Interior, was forcibly removed from his office. It was not long after the 30th of January 1933 that the Communist and Social Democratic parties were decreed illegal and all form of public expression, other than by the Nazis, was prevented. This action resulted from deliberate planning. Frick has said as far back as 1927 (Document Number 2513-PS):

"The National Socialists longed for the day when . . ."-they- ". . . could put an inglorious but well-deserved end to this infernal sham (the Reichstag) and open the way for a national dictatorship."


At this time when democratic government is seeking to re establish itself throughout the world, the Nazi attitude to elections is not to be forgotten. Free elections could not, of course, be permitted. Goering had told Schacht in February 1933 when seeking money for the Party from industry, and I quote (Document Number D-203):

"The sacrifice asked for will surely be so much easier for industry to bear if it is realized that the election of 5 March will be the last one for the next 10 years, probably for the next 100 years."

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/07-26-46.htm

=================================
Fascinating stuff, no?

I was also reading that Niemoeller was not truly the author of the wonderful poem, somewhere on some site, but that is neither here not there.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

69. Hi liberal

That was an excellent and accurate account of history. I admire your attention to detail. While I am sure there are MANY websites in the modern world that want to discredit Niemoeller by claiming he didn't write the poem, I can assure he wrote and lived every word of the horrors. In today's media, can we afford to take ANY information at face value?

[LiberalAndProud]

71. Thanks for clarifying ...

There are debunkers to be sure, but I have no doubt that Niemoeller lived through every harrowing moment of that nightmare.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

73. Liberal

Like you, I have no doubt but I undoubtedly believe that it is America that will live through every harrowing moment of the nightmare, if we don't get off our asses and stir up some good old fashioned 60s style fun for the neo-Nazis.

[PATRICK]

70. Wasn't it

first the "liberals" that they bashed to get into power, then the Jews once the liberals disappeared?
Didn't Stalin ally with Jewish intellectuals when he needed them then put them all in Siberia when it was safe to show he was a hardened anti-Semite again?

And some Jews in another fatal misstep based on a reaction to the last one(Holocaust) back the crazed RW virile support for Israel. Of course by the time it gets back to the Jews anything liberal would have been brushed aside again.

[Rocknrule]

74. Here's another way to think of it

Liberals are Jedi
Conservatives are Sith
Coulter, Limbaugh, and Savage on the air are telling their listeners to "execute Order 66"

[baby_mouse]

76. Not quite yet.

The Jews were something of a minority.

[Kellanved]

79. That is among the most insulting threads today

Do you believe that the situation of opposition politicians/sympathizers can be compared to the plight of Jews under Nazi rule? If so, I can't even begin to understand your belief.

Have you any idea what the Nazis did to opposition politicians? To Social Democrats, Democratic Liberals and Communists?

Of the 1600 politician alive (all parties) in 1933
-310 were disowned
-416 were inprisoned
-73 were killed in prison
-167 were forced to go into exile
-399 died of causes unknown
-at least six commited suicide



Especially remember these 96 members of the last Reichstag:
JULIUS ADLER * 1894 † 1945 KZ BERGEN-BELSEN KPD
JOHANN ADLHOCH * 1884 † 1945 MÜNCHEN, ZUVOR TODESMARSCH BVP EDUARD ALEXANDER * 1881 † 1945 TRANSPORT KZ BERGEN-BELSEN KPD
JULIUS ASSMANN * 1868 † 1939 BODINO/
POLEN ERMORDET DVP
ELISE AUGUSTAT * 1889 † 1940 LÄGERDORF HAFTFOLGEN KZ RAVENSBRÜCK KPD
BERNHARD BÄSTLEIN * 1894 † 1944 ZUCHTHAUS BRANDENBURG-GOERDEN KPD
ARTUR BECKER * 1905 † 1938 BURGOS/
SPANIEN, ERMORDET KPD
ANTON BIAS * 1876 † 1945 KZ DACHAU SPD
ADOLF BIEDERMANN * 1881 † 1933 NÄHE RECKLINGHAUSEN TOT AUFGEFUNDEN SPD
KONRAD BLENKLE * 1901 † 1943 ZUCHTHAUS BERLIN-PLÖTZENSEE KPD
FRITZ BOCKIUS * 1882 † 1945 KZ MAUTHAUSEN ZENTRUM
CLARA BOHM-SCHUCH * 1897 † 1936 BERLIN, SPÄTFOLGEN FRAUENGEFÄNGNIS BERLIN-BARNIMSTRASSE SPD
EUGEN BOLZ * 1881 † 1945 ZUCHTHAUS PLÖTZENSEE ZENTRUM
RUDOLF BREITSCHEID * 1874 † 1944 KZ BUCHENWALD SPD
LORENZ BREUNIG * 1882 † 1945 KZ SACHSENHAUSEN SPD
CONRAD BROSSWITZ * 1881 † 1945 KZ DACHAU SPD
OTTO EGGERSTEDT * 1886 † 1933 KZ ESTERWEGEN SPD
EUGEN EPPSTEIN * 1878 † 1943 KZ LUBLIN-MAJDANEK KPD
HELENE FLEISCHER * 1899 † 1941 STADTRODA ZUVOR STADTGEFÄNGNIS GERA KPD
ALBERT FUNK * 1894 † 1933 POLIZEIPRÄSIDIUM RECKLINGHAUSEN KPD
OTTO GEISELHART * 1890 † 1933 AMTSGERICHTSGEFÄNGNIS GÜNZBURG SPD
OTTO GERIG * 1885 † 1944 KZ BUCHENWALD ZENTRUM
PAUL GERLACH * 1888 † 1944 KZ SACHSENHAUSEN SPD
ERNST GRUBE * 1890 † 1945 KZ BERGEN-BELSEN KPD
FRANZ HAINDL * 1879 † 1941 LANDESANSTALT SONNENSTEIN-PIRNA DBP
EDARD HAMM * 1879 † 1944 GEFÄNGNIS BERLIN-LEHRTERSTRASSE DDP
ERNST HEILMANN * 1881 † 1940 KZ BUCHENWALD SPD
RUDOLF HENNIG * 1895 † 1944 KZ SACHSENHAUSEN KPD
FRANZ HERBERT * 1885 † 1945 KZ MAUTHAUSEN BVP
EUGEN HERBST * 1903 † 1934 KZ DACHAU KPD
CHRISTIAN HEUCK * 1892 † 1934 STRAFGEFÄNGNIS NEUMÜNSTER KPD
GUIDO HEYM * 1882 † 1945 WEIMAR. VON DER SS ERSCHOSSEN KPD
RUDOLF HILFERDING * 1877 † 1941 GEFÄNGNIS PARIS LA-SANTE SPD
GUSTAV HOCH * 1862 † 1942 KZ THERESIENSTADT SPD
LAMBERT HORN * 1899 † 1939 KZ SACHSENHAUSEN KPD
FRIEDRICH HUSEMANN * 1873 † 1935 SÖGEL. HAFTFOLGEN KZ ESTERWEGEN SPD
ALBERT JANKA * 1907 † 1933 KZ REICHENBACH KPD
HEINRICH JASPER * 1875 † 1945 BERGEN-BELSEN SPD
FRIEDRICH JENDROSCH * 1890 † 1944 KZ SACHSENHAUSEN KPD
REINHOLD JÜRGENSEN * 1898 † 1934 KZ FUHLSBÜTTEL KPD
EUGEN KAISER * 1879 † 1945 KZ DACHAU SPD
ALBERT KAYSER * 1898 † 1944 KZ BUCHENWALD KPD
FRANZISKA KESSEL * 1906 † 1934 ZUCHTHAUS MAINZ KPD
ANTON KRZIKALLA * 1887 †1944 KZ SACHSENHAUSEN KPD
FRANZ KÜNSTLER * 1888 † 1942 BERLIN, SPÄTFOLGEN KZ LICHTENBURG SPD
MAX LADEMANN * 1896 † 1941 KZ SACHSENHAUSEN KPD
JULIUS LEBER * 1891 † 1945 ZUCHTHAUS BERLIN PLÖTZENSEE SPD
PAUL LEJEUNE-JUNG * 1882 † 1944 ZUCHTHAUS BERLIN-PLÖTZENSEE CHR.N.A:
RICHARD UPINSKI * 1867 † 1936 BENNEWITZ, ZUVOR IN HAFT MIßHANDELT SPD
KARL MACHE * 1882 † 1934 KZ KISLAU SPD
MAX MADDALENA * 1895 † 1943 ZUCHTHAUS BRANDENBURG-GÖRDEN KPD
LUDWIG MARUM * 1882 † 1934 KZ KISLAU SPD
STEFAN MEIER * 1889 † 1944 KZ MAUTHAUSEN SPD
AUGUST MERGES *1870 † 1945 BRAUNSCHWEIG, ZULETZT ZUCHTHAUS WOLFENBÜTTEL SPD
FRANZ METZ * 1878 † 1945 GERETSRIED HAFTFOLGEN KZ DACHAU SPD
JULIUS MOSES * 1886 † KZ THERESIENSTADT SPD
ARTHUR NAGEL * 1890 † 1945 KZ BERGEN-BELSEN KPD
THEODOR NEUBAUER *1890 † 1945 ZUCHTHAUS BRANDENBURG-GÖRDEN KPD
FRANZ PETRICH * 1889 † 1945 ZUCHTHAUS SONNENBURG SPD
ANDREAS PORTUNE * 1875 † 1945 ROSSLAU HAFTFOLGEN STRAFGEFANGENENLAGER GRIEBD SPD
FRIEDRICH PUCHTA * 1883 † 1945 MÜNCHEN, HAFTFOLGEN KZ DACHAU SPD
ERNST PUTZ * 1896 † 1933 UNTERSUCHUNGSGEFÄNGNIS BERLIN-MOABIT KPD
SIEGFRIED RÄDEL * 1893 † 1943 ZUCHTHAUS BERLIN-PLÖTZENSEE KPD
PAUL REDLICH * 1893 † 1944 BRANDENBURG HAFTFOLGEN KZ SONNENBURG KPD
WALTER REEK * 1878 † 1933 GEFÄNGNIS DANZIG SPD
ERNST REINKE * 1891 † 1943 KZ FLOSSENBÜRG KPD
MAX RICHTER * 1881 † 1945 NEUSTÄDTER BUCHT, TRANSPORT KZ NEUENGAMME SPD
THEODOR ROEINGH * 1882 † 1945 KZ SACHSENHAUSEN ZENTRUM
JULIUS ROSEMANN * 1878 † 1933 POLIZEIGEFÄNGNIS HAMM SPD
KARL SATTLER * 1896 † BERGEN-BELSEN KPD
JOHN SCHEHR * 1896 † 1934 KZ BERLIN-COLUMBIAHAUS KPD
MICHAEL SCHNABRICH * 1880 † 1939 KZ SACHSENHAUSEN SPD
ERNST SCHNELLER * 1890 † 1944 KZ SACHSENHAUSEN KPD
ENST SCHNEPPENHORST * 1881 † 1945 GEFÄNGNIS BERLIN- LEHRTERSTRASSE SPD
WERNER SCHOLEM * 1895 † 1940 KZ BUCHENWALD KPD
GEORG SCHUMANN * 1886 † 1945 UNTERSUCHUNGSGEFÄNGNIS DRESDEN KPD
WALTER SCHÜTZ * 1897 † 1933 KÖNIGSBERG/PR VON SA ERMORDET KPD
HUGO SINZHEIMER * 1875 † 1945 BLOMENDAAL-OVEREEN, HAFTFOLGEN KZ THERESIENSTADT SPD
WILLI SKAMIRA * 1897 † 1945 ZUCHTHAUS BRANDENBURG-GOERDEN KPD
FRITZ SOLDMANN * 1878 † 1945 WERNIGERODE/HARZ HAFTFOLGEN KZ BUCHENWALD SPD
ROBERT STAMM * 1900 † 1937 ZUCHTHAUS BERLIN-PLÖTZENSEE KPD
JOHANNES STELLING * 1877 † 1933 AMTSGERICHTSGEFÄNGNIS BERLIN-KÖPENICKS SPD
FRANZ STENZER * 1900 † 1933 KZ DACHAU KPD
WALTER STÖCKER * 1891 † 1939 KZ BUCHENWALD USPD, KPD
GEORG STREITER * 1884 † 1945 KZ RAVENSBRÜCK DVP
AUGUST STEUFERT * 1887 † 1944 KZ NEUENGAMME SPD
HERMANN TEMPEL * 1889 † 1944 OLDENBURG, HAFTFOLGEN STRAFGEFÄNGNIS WOLFENBÜTTEL SPD
JOHANNA TESCH * 1875 † 1945 KZ RAVENSBRÜCK SPD
ERNST THÄLMANN * 1886 † 1944 KZ BUCHENWALD KPD
MATHIAS THESEN * 1891 † 1944 KZ SACHSENHAUSEN KPD
NIKOLAUS THIELEN * 1901 † 1944 KZ MAUTHAUSEN KPD
FRIEDRICH VOIGT * 1882 † 1945 ZUCHTHAUS BERLIN-PLÖTZENSEE SPD
PAUL VOIGT * 1876 † 1944 BERLIN, ERMORDET SPD
PAUL WEGMANN * 1889 † 1945 KZ BERGEN-BELSEN USPD
GEORG WENDT * 1889 † 1948 BERLIN, ZUVOR ZUCHTHAUS BRANDENBURG SPD
LOTTE ZINKE * 1891 † 1944 KZ RAVENSBRÜCK KPD



No. You are not "like the Jews in Nazi Germany". You are not like the liberals in Nazi Germany. Believing that you are won't help you a bit in real-world politics.

[bloom]

82. Are you saying you are not a liberal?

And are you also saying that liberals are NOT being demonized?

[Kellanved]

85. I am not saying any such thing.

I would never call myself "liberal", because I am not. I am a Social Democrat and a proud one at that.

Whatever you perceive the actual situation to be, it is not under any perspective comparable to the genocides committed by and in Germany under Nazi rule. Deadly persecution based on ethnicity is something completely different from the perception of being "demonized".

Even worse is the idea that opposition politicians somehow were not attacked by the Nazis. It is "aww, we are being demonized, so we have to be like the Jews in Nazi Germany". Using Nazi Germany makes it hyperbole, using the holocaust makes it something worse.

I know the US, I am stateside pretty regularly, I know Americans; I also have both sides of the Holocaust in my family history: you are most certainly not anywhere near Nazi Germany. The political situation sucks, the media is biased, an illegal war is being fought - yes, I don't deny any of that. But it does not equate the Democratic position to that of the Jews under Nazi-German rule. It simply doesn't.

[dolo amber]

89. ...

:yourock:

If my relatives who died in Nazi Germany could see this thread, they'd roll over in their urns. :eyes:

[bloom]

90. I think it's interesting

that some holocaust survivors are very concerned that people recognize the signs of a regime moving in that direction - instead of denying that that people should think about it - or trying to convince them not to.


Non-liberals may not be noticing it as much, either. Like when an old friend finds out you are a democrat and says - "oh - but surely you're not a liberal" - as if that is an evil thing.

And here you are - on a progressive board and you don't want to self-describe yourself as a liberal? Seems odd. Maybe because liberals have been vilified? :shrug:

[Fenris]

93. Some men work in oils.

You work in perverse logic.

[Magrittes Pipe]

97. I am a liberal.

And your assertions are disgraceful and insulting to millions.

Real "liberal" of you.

[norml]

83. Nazi Propaganda: 1933-1945

Nazi Propaganda (1933-1945)
A collection of English translations of propaganda material from the Nazi era.
www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/ww2era.htm - 42k - Cached - Similar pages
< More results from www.calvin.edu >

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/ww2era.htm





http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/sk02.htm

[HEyHEY]

86. I'd love you'd to tell that to a holocaust survivor

[bloom]

87. I noticed this posted in the religion section...

One churches description of itself:

Conservative. Evangelical. Biblical.

That’s what Lakewood Church is all about. It has no tinge of liberalism. It has no trucking with the apostasy prone. It has nothing in common with those who deny the divine revelation accepted as Holy Scripture.

-J. Grant Swank, jr., author, columnist, pastor

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x47615

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

88. You have got to be fucking kidding me. What a horrible thing to say.

Tell that to my Step-Grandmother.

[Fire Walk With Me]

110. I have Jewish "blood" in me, so no offense intended.

How you became offended is beyond me. The goal here is to head off anything similar through understanding the mechanisms.

BTW, BushCo haven't murdered 6 million critics, but they have a modest start regarding Iraqi civilians, US soldiers, ongoing torture in secret CIA prisons, etc. But you don't applaud the Tenor for clearing his throat, -Dangerous Liasons.

[babsbunny]

91. YES!

But I am sure we will never really know how it was for them?

[unblock]

92. the problem with nazi analogies. nazis WHEN?

in this case, pre-kristalnacht, you've got an argument. but once the concentration camps started, no way.

slightly more subtly, accepting the early-nazi analogies partly involves some level of acceptance that the late-nazi analogy may be in our future. and that's just a hard one to accept, no matter how bad you think the banana republicans are.

[rinsd]

94. I think you hit the nail on the head....

"slightly more subtly, accepting the early-nazi analogies partly involves some level of acceptance that the late-nazi analogy may be in our future and that's just a hard one to accept, no matter how bad you think the banana republicans are."

When we now know the "plan" was concieved and enacted nearly to a tee years prior and much of what happened was according to said plan, the aobve stands a true as anything. I think gopers are morons but I don't think they want to wipe out a whole segment of the populace.

[unblock]

98. true enough. but the REAL question is:

did the nazis create something they themselves couldn't stop?

are the banana republicans creating something they themselves can't stop?

by making hate acceptable and profitable, is something horrible inevitable? imagine that those currently in power are trying to walk that delicate line, hating just enough to sign up the bigots but not so much as to cause violence -- but then some david duke type fans the flames further, or some incident ignites the powder keg.

could they keep it from happening? i'm not talking distinctly germanic systemic wipeout, but more typical rampages and/or rampant "isolated" attacks. hate has happened in so many countries over the centuries, especially when governments change dramatically. can we change from democracy to dictatorship without some level of violence?

:shrug:

[Nikki Stone 1]

96. It's funny, but I have often thought that "liberal" was code for "Jew"

especially since the South often blames the Northern Jews for Civil Rights. Of course this ignores the many liberal Christians and liberals of other faiths as well.

I think there is a real anti-semitism under neocon talk, even as it is pro-Israel/anti Arab. The Right supports Israel because many of them believe in Armageddon, and I think it's Revelations that claims that only way to get Armageddon (and the second coming of Jesus) is to get the Jews back to Israel.

[Behind the Aegis]

105. Very interesting and insightful! Bravo! n/t

[Dunedain]

100. Tell me what you think

ARTICLE 4. (1) A Jew cannot be a citizen of the Reich. He
cannot exercise the right to vote; he cannot hold public office.
(2) Jewish officials will be retired as of December 31, 1935.
In the event that such officials served at the front in the World
War either for Germany or her allies, they shall receive as
pension, until they reach the age limit, the full salary last
received, on the basis of which their pension would have been
computed. They shall not, however, be promoted according to
their seniority in rank. When they reach the age limit, their
pension will be computed again, according to the salary last
received on which their pension was to be calculated.
(3) These provisions do not concern the affairs of religious
organizations.
(4) The conditions regarding service of teachers in public
Jewish schools remains unchanged until the promulgation of new
laws on the Jewish school system.

http://www.mtsu.edu/~baustin/nurmlaw2.html

[leesa]

102. The third Reich went after the liberals and intellectuals too. Believe me

if the Bush Nazis get rolling the way they want to, it won't be long before the Jews are swept up along with the Muslims. It will be the same crowds in the concentration camps as before.

[Niche]

103. "HOMELAND" is taken right out of the 3rd Reich's vocabulary

Speeches were all about "partiotism" and "protecting the homeland"... that's scary enough...

[upi402]

107. That's right. Jingoism and an out-group to hate - it manipulates folks

We are seeing just how the Germans could have allowed it.
You rip a phone book in half one page at a time.

[earth mom]

108. Liberals are on the undesirable list...no doubt about it.

:scared:

[Hekate]

109. Yes. We're at about 1932 by now. See link to article in Sojourners

It does not cheapen the Holocaust to recognize where the US is headed now. On the contrary, it would show some feel for the grim lessons of history.

In my lifetime I have seen the distortion of the word "liberal" from a designation for a particular legitimate point of view into a dirty word. It's taken 20 years of concerted effort, but the right wing has finally managed to do it. Like the word "Jew," if you say "liberal" with venom and a sneer, your audience knows what you mean by it -- not a human being like yourself, but an enemy, a criminal, someone who has no right to exist.

It sickens me that Americans could sink so low.

The article in Sojo really grabbed me because during the run-up to the invasion of Iraq several elderly Europeans including my mother-in-law, who is a Holocaust survivor, told me they were having horrible flashbacks to Europe in the early 1930s. That's when I knew we were in far deeper trouble than I had been able to admit to myself.

The following article, The Steep Price of Grace, has a very good brief analysis of the complexities of the rise of Nazism and Hitler. You can't miss the parallels.

Hekate

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=Soj0602&article=060220

> The Steep Price of Grace, by Larry Rasmussen
>
> An encounter following a recent viewing of a documentary on Dietrich Bonhoeffer unnerved me. As discussion of the film about the German theologian and leader of Christian resistance to the Nazis drew to a close, an elderly gentleman stepped to the microphone and said simply: "I’m a Holocaust survivor, and I can tell you what year this is: It’s 1932." He turned and left.
>snip<
>
> The elderly man’s unsettling judgment was echoed in a November 2004 speech by Fritz Stern, the prominent historian of modern Germany. Even a good historian’s reticence to draw historical parallels couldn’t suppress Stern’s sense that the early ‘30s in Germany might be a prism for viewing some recent events. Germany is not the United States and the 1930s are not the present. Still, careful attention must be paid to Holocaust survivors who think this year somehow resembles 1932 — and to historians who are uneasy.
>
> The rise of National Socialism was not inevitable, Stern said in his speech. Some clearheaded Germans recognized emerging Nazism as a "monstrous danger and ultimate nemesis." But there was also widespread "civic passivity and willed blindness." ... Still, Stern continued, these are only preconditions, which of themselves don’t explain "the triumph of evil in a deeply civilized country." What then does?
>snip<