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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-26-06 08:47 PM
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LAT: Study Finds Ethanol Offers Little Improvement
Study Finds Ethanol Offers Little Improvement
By Elizabeth Douglass, Times Staff Writer


A study released today by California researchers discredits claims that making ethanol for gasoline consumes more energy than it creates — an argument that has dogged ethanol programs and their backers for more than a decade.

However, the paper also concludes that ethanol made from corn — the type that dominates the market today — offers little improvement in greenhouse gas emissions compared to petroleum-based fuel.

The findings by author Alexander Farrell and five colleagues at UC Berkeley, to be published Friday in the journal Science, are not new. But its critique of other studies on the subject seems to resolve the "net energy" question surrounding ethanol.

Other aspects of the study could do much more, such as influence California's developing plan to cut greenhouse gases and undercut support for corn-based ethanol amid a nationwide move to increase the use of renewable fuels.

"What we really hope happens is that we move ahead from this question of positive or negative net energy the net energy is positive for ethanol," Farrell said....


http://www.latimes.com/business/la-012606ethanol_lat,0,1593589.story?coll=la-home-business
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Shortyfuse Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-26-06 09:00 PM
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1. Bill passed before research.
You know I have learned a lot since my job went to Singapore. More time on my hands. Didn't Congress just pass a law that certain energy companies could not be sued for environmental effects of ethonal. Does it cause drought like the ingredient( I can never remember its name) california made Canada take out of its gasoline. ( Canada sued them in
WTO court for making them take it out. They Won.) That is why I did not really care for Dashele. Even though he was trying to promote the farmers in his state, he did not know the environmental effects of ethanol. Ethanol may be great, but for political reasons it was put on the market before testing.
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-26-06 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. MTBE, Not Ethanol n/t
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Jayhawk Lib Donating Member (587 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-26-06 09:02 PM
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2. I see no way
that ethanol is going to accomplish anything positive. It does take more energy to manufacture it than you get out of it. Where do you get the energy to manufacture it? Most of it will come from fossil fuels. I do not mean to be negative but I have to be realistic.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-26-06 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. agree
and many will consider it a license to drive as much as they want.
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firefox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-26-06 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. it just said more energy to make than you get is a myth
There is a station that sells E85 around here. I bought 80 cents worth to dilute in a little car. It creates jobs and keeps money in the country.

They had gasohol under Carter and there was never a reason to not require it at every station. If the country were not run by the oil industry we would have gasohol everywhere.

I will buy it forever now that I have a source.
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-26-06 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. RTFA
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Baconfoot Donating Member (653 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-26-06 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. I believe this point is currently in dispute. NT
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-26-06 09:27 PM
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7. NPR covered this today
The debate was/is between Berkeley and David Pimentel of Cornell, on whether the total energy equation is bettered or not by ethanol. Trying to factor all of the costs associated with the agricultural production of plant material for ethanol can be a highly subjective effort. Figuring in the fuel costs of farm equipment is a no-brainer, but how about the cost of lunch for farm workers?

The consensus between the two camps was that corn, the favored ethanol crop of ag-giant ADM, is not as efficient as other crops such as switchgrass.
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-26-06 09:38 PM
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9. Duh!
Go Google!
Plus, what is the use of diesel fuel BTU over growing corn BTU (plus processing BTUs, etc.) AND ...
And as I explained in a post a month or so ago, in 1980 or so, it took 11 or so calories to raise 1 calorie of food mechanically (we aren't including shipping) and manually 1 calorie to raise 11 to 12 calories of food.
Sustainabilty!?!?!
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Chemical Bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-26-06 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
10. Not this shit again...
To start with:

The studies that Farrell's group reviewed included two produced by longtime ethanol critics David Pimentel, a professor at Cornell University, and Tad W. Patzek, who is also a UC Berkeley professor. Pimentel and Patzek concluded that making ethanol used up more energy than it produced.


Patzek is the head of the UC petroleum consortium, which is a petroleum industry funded group. Start getting suspicious there. These two just released a study about biodiesel that said the same thing, it wasn't energy efficient. The trouble is, they use energy inputs that are beyond reason to come up with the numbers. They count the workmen's lunch as energy input required for the manufacturing. They assume that farmers will buy new tractors every year or two, then count the energy needed to make the tractor. Funny, they don't count the energy needed to invade Iraq in the petroleum column.

Here's a critique of their methods and conclusions:

“As a researcher with more than 10 years of experience in this area, I find the Pimentel/Patzak paper unconvincing,” said Jim Duffield, USDA senior agricultural economist and one of the original authors of the DOE/USDA study. “It lacks depth and clarity compared to previous studies published on this topic that clearly show biodiesel has a positive energy balance.”

<snip>

Leading academics also discredited the work of Pimentel and Patzek. “There is an internationally accepted standard method of doing such life cycle studies. Drs. Pimentel and Patzek don’t come close to meeting the standards,” said Bruce Dale, professor of chemical engineering at Michigan State University. “Their studies don’t meet the International Standards Organization test of transparency—they don’t clearly state where their data comes from nor do they clearly state their assumptions. They cite themselves rather than independent sources for important data all the time. And they don’t submit their work for verification in recognized, peer-reviewed life cycle journals.”

<snip>

Pimentel has used similar faulty data for ethanol for years, also assigning it a negative energy balance when the majority of current research shows it is now positive.

“Pimentel also erroneously reports that our USDA/DOE study concluded that the net energy balance of biodiesel was negative,” Duffield said. “The authors misrepresented our study, which actually concluded that biodiesel made from soybean oil resulted in an energy savings of over 3 to 1. It is the prevailing study cited for biodiesel’s positive energy balance, so it is difficult to understand how it could be misrepresented.”


This from a soybean industry website, but the numbers are from the feds:
http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/pressreleases/gen/20050721_pimentel_response.pdf

Having said that, I agree that corn is not the best crop to use for ethanol. It only returns 1.3 times as much energy as it uses. If ADM had less of an influence and we used common sense, we would grow hemp or switch grass for ethanol.

You know the oil companies are running scared when they bring this shit out.

Bill
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-26-06 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Meanwhile, here is what Japan and Brazil have been doing
"Japan's First Pilot Plant for Conversion of Wood Waste to Alcohol Fuel Commences Operations
- Toward commercial application of biomass energy technology -"

http://www.chuden.co.jp/english/corporate/press2004/0513_1.html

"Dual Fuel Cars Revive Brazil's Alcohol Industry"

http://www.tierramerica.net/2003/0825/iacentos.shtml
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-26-06 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
12. Use Wind Or Co-Generation For Process Energy Input
Most studies indicate an EPR of 1 for corn ethanol from a energy standpoint, and 1.3 to 1.8 for corn ethanol once the value of coproducts are credited. Although the article does not specifically mention the reason, I suspect that the neutral greenhouse gas benefit is due to fossil fuels being used for the required energy input.

Considering that 2/3rd’s of the energy consumed in corn ethanol production is in conversion (ethanol plant), this indicates opportunities for utilizing co-generation or renewables (wind) for most of this process energy. This is why I view corn ethanol more as a valuable energy carrier than an energy source. Process corn for ethanol using an energy input from renewable energy, renewable energy is converted to a valuable liquid fuel, with most of the food value of the corn remaining for consumption.

Refer to Table 6 of the following report for a breakdown of energy use for ethanol production.

The Energy Balance of Corn Ethanol: An Update / AER-813
United States Department of Agriculture - July 2002

http://www.usda.gov/oce/oepnu/aer-813.pdf

Just east of Ames, IA an ethanol processing plant is being built. In the brief for the project they advertised how the new plant will use the same coal supply delivered to the Ames, IA municipal electric plant 4 mi. to the west, thus resulting in savings. With co-generation, this plant could have been located such that waste heat from the coal fired electric plant could have been utilized by the ethanol process. In addition, the Ames power plant burns local garbage, therefore waste material from the ethanol process could be burned (resource recovered, as they call it).

Another alternate is wind. Most of the corn belt and the high plains (potential swithchgrass growing region) are reasonably close to areas that have good to excellent wind energy potential.
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