i'm in phoenix, arizona. right now i'm having rain gutters installed

[catmother]

on my house. i just went out to take a look and all the workers are mexican or maybe from somewhere else south of the border. the owner of the company is american. i don't know whether they're legal or illegal and you know what -- i don't care. their out there busting their asses with no supervision. the owner was here earlier to just show them what to do. it was the same when i had my flagstone installed on my patio and when i had cracks repaired on my house and painted. they work through lunch -- they bring something with them and take a little break to eat.

when i was building this house it was the same. some americans, but mostly latino. my tile work is exquisite as is everything else that was done in my house.

when i go into grocery stores or any kind of store, the american cashiers (especially the young ones) and other help are talking among themselves -- what they did the night before, when are they gonna get a break, etc. in my day -- i'm 64 if you did what these people did you would have been fired on the spot.

my point is: i have mixed emotions about our southern borders. i don't want al-quada crossing into the country but i certainly do not object to the hard working mexicans coming into the country. i think more attention should be paid to the canadian border.

[bluestateguy]

1. My parents live in Arizona

Their experience was very similar when they had a pool installed in their house. All the workers were Hispanic and the project was finished ahead of schedule, with no defects at all. There were no problems on the job at all.

On the other hand, when parents had a new floor put in the contractor and his son (both white) fucked the whole thing up and the project had to be re-done.

[catmother]

3. i'm sorry to say that i will not buy an american car. i've been

driving toyotas for years and now a mazda. i had bad luck with american cars before that. my husband got his dream car about 6 years ago -- a corvette -- it cost almost $60,000. thank god for the extended warranty. that car was in the shop constantly. many times he had to be towed. he got rid of it and got another toyota. very sad experience. we'd like to buy american but until they can produce a product that will wear like a japanese car we just can't afford to.

[Lefty48197]

17. A lot of the American car parts are made in Mexico

so apparently Mexicans are good at landscaping and tile work, but bad at making cars. If you want a good car, go buy from the Japanese, and if you want a good bowl of hummus, go hire a Lebanese I always say.

[catmother]

23. my understanding is that parts of cars are made in different places.

i know the toyota camry used to be made here -- don't know if they still are, but i had heard that american car parts could come from japan and other countries.

you made me laugh with your analogy. i wouldn't think of eating hummus in an american restaurant.

[lithiumbomb]

103. it's not the part manufacturer skill, it's the part design

Any human can put a part together just as good as anybody else. The _design_ of the part, and the car (or whatever) as a whole is what's important. If your car is falling to pieces, that means it wasn't designed to not fall to pieces.

Car factories for the big car companies are owned by the companies themselves, or are independent contractors for the car companies. They'll have to meet the requirements of whoever the car is being made for, and design specs. The car company will have the final stamp of approval on any design and assembly done. So IMO, if a Ford made in Mexico, or a Toyota made in Kentucky, completely falls apart, it has nothing at all to do with the workers who made it. Garbage in, garbage out...

[hoffmanmotors]

2. I live in Arizona too....

Why are you installing rain gutters? It hasn't rained since October 17th ;)

[catmother]

4. unfortunately i'm up on a hill and i'm on expansive soil. my house

has been cracking and heaving and subsiding. my builder had an engineer come out to look at the problem. their advice among a few other things was to install rain gutters so moisture would not get under the house. wait 6 months -- it hasn't rained since october so i'm 3 months into it and then have the engineers check again to see if the house has stabilized. they say not to make any repairs until it's stable because if it's not the cracks will come back. it's been a traumatic experience for me -- this is my dream house -- but it's fixable and i'm not the only one with this problem.

[napi21]

64. Hmmm, who told you to build there?

I don't have a problem with the work of the Mexicans, I have a problem with them being exploited along with the Americans! You and I both know they only have these jobs because they're willing to work cheap!

As to who told you you could build there, the person you bought the land from and the realtor who sold it to you was obliged to tell you there were potential problems. If they didn't, sue them! If they did, shame on you!

[catmother]

72. i don't think anyone knew. it was just a piece of raw desert. no

electric, no sewers. i could be on expansive soil and the house next to me -- well actually an acre away may not be. some people do not have problems -- others do. just north of me del webb put in an enormous community -- most of which is on expansive soil. there's a lot of law suits going on. fortunately i have a builder who knows that he's responsible legally for the structure of my house and is willing to pick up the expenses incurred.

it's a fixable problem. and if you saw the area you would know why we bought the property and built a house. it's an incredible place, with incredible views -- we're up high on a hillside -- it's zoned 1 house per acre -- but many people like myself have a few acres and we're not going to be selling any off even though an acre is now going for $350,000.

[burrowowl]

76. Looks like no soil study was done

and if the soil under the foundation wasn't replaced and engineered (and it sound as if the foundation wasn't enginnered either) then the rain gutters won't do much. Of course with the gutters you can set up a rain collection system to save on watering plants.
Grants NM has areas with this problem and many builders, developers and homeowners don't want to go the the preliminary expense and ....
For those of you looking to buy property it is good to get a surveyor geologist and also go to zoning and look at the soil and hydrology maps. If the development is too new, buy a section map of the area from the geological survey.
And yes I have no problems with Mexicans coming over, I'm part Mexican and born and lived in El Paso until I was 12 and couldn't understand until I was 6 why Juarez (CST) and El Paso (MST) didn't have the same time.

[catmother]

79. the soil was compacted and i had a compaction test done (cost

extra for the test) and an engineer took soil readings. it's just one of those things.

[burrowowl]

94. Sometimes it takes

more than compaction. Removal of soil to a certain depth and replacement. Caliche and clay are not good for foundations.

[catmother]

97. well there are people out their who specialize in foundation

repair. we've been having a lot of problems here with the soil. the gutters are just to let the soil dry out and see if there's any more movement.

[catmother]

99. i know you mean well. but you're starting to depess me. i'm

working with a man who is called "the foundation guru of the southwest". he's the guy that comes and testifies when a case goes to court. so i'm in good hands and my builder is cooperating. everything will be fixed in time.

[catmother]

5. BTW. i don't know where you are but there are areas that are

full of expansive soil. there's actually a map that shows where it is. mostly north scottsdale, carefree, anthem -- i'm south of anthem. then there's a little pocket almost in town that has it.

[fairandunbalanced]

7. Workers

Im not against anyone working hard and getting paid for it, but by all means everyone should be abiding by the laws that have been set forth to govern and regulate employers and workers. Out sourcing jobs in and out of our country is a big problem.

[catmother]

20. i don't know if these guys doing my gutters are taking jobs away

from others.

but outsourcing is another thing. my husband had a meeting at american express the other day. while he was waiting for the person he was meeting with (you can't get in without a badge) he was watching all the indians going in. american express actually has a company called TaTa America where they bring people from india to do technical jobs. they pay them less than the americans. they live in apartments right across from american express -- usually 4 or 5 to an apartment. they buy 1 used car and share it and of course, they can walk to work. now we can't blame them. they're just looking for a better life. it's american express who should take the blame. it's the same when they outsource to india. the people who do the jobs are paid higher than most in india (or mexico, or china) and it's a prestigous job for them. again, not their fault -- the company's fault.

if this continues there will be so much unemployment in this country that we will not have the money to buy the goods that have been made in the other countries. but it seems the government just doesn't get the picture. i say if they're going to outsource -- penalize with tax or whatever but this has to stop before it's too late.

[SoCalDem]

25. The problem is that American Express (and all the others) do not

"pass the savings on to YOU"..like the old ad slogan says..

They pocket the excess and look for more ways to hire cheap workers so they can pocket more..

If a designer jacket costs $13 to make in Myanmar, why does it still sell for $400 here in the USofA? It's NOT all shipping & advertising..It's GREED..pure and simple.

[catmother]

28. you're absolutely right. my husband works for a company who

also does outsourcing and he fears that his job will go.

[AZBlue]

128. It's disgusting!

First, they take away jobs from Americans and then they under-pay someone else because it's still better than what they have in their native country. They are hurting everyone with that. How do these corporate leaders sleep at night?! The situation you describe at AmEx is happening everywhere and seems just one rung above slavery to me.

[Dora]

11. I was wondering the same thing.

Born and raised in Tempe, 1969-1997.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

114. Flash floods? It is dry here but we do have rainy seasons.

And flash floods.

The streets flood extremely quickly compared to other places I've lived.

Anyhow best to have water drainage in place.

[catmother]

120. before i moved here i remember the news in new york saying

that phoenix was having it's monsoon and there was flooding. now i knew i was going to move here but i thought "monsoon, i've only heard about that in india". and that first summer 1990 i got my taste of it. there was one day when my husband couldn't even get to work. the roads were all flooded. fortunately we were up a little higher and didn't get flooded. now we're up even higher - actually on a hillside -- we have 2 washes on our property. and of course, every time it rains some jerk tries to drive through the washes and gets stuck and has to be rescued. they do get fined i believe it's called the "stupid motorist law". they think they can make it through, but those waters run fast.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

124. I can recall a number of times also around 1990 or earlier when

being at work and watching the rain and the streets flooding. Wondering if it was going to be possible to get home.

I have a small pickup, which probably didn't help much except it made me feel safer.

But somehow I always made it home, although it sometimes took a long time and driving through some areas that weren't shut down but were rather deep with water.

I used to watch the other cars going through to get an idea of how deep it was.

I remember many years ago before moving to Arizona driving in the desert near Tucson, seeing signs "Do not enter during flood."

I used to think well duh!

But as you note there are always people who do anyhow.

[catmother]

125. i haven't worked since i moved here in late 89, but i remember

being in new york looking out my office window at the snow and wondering if i was going to get home. we had a snow storm in 69 that totally paralyzed everything. if i hadn't remembered where i parked my car i would not have been able to find it. it took me days to dig it out. so when it's real hot here in the summer i remind myself of what it was like back in NY, but i still complain. lol

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

126. With temperatures increasing worldwide, the desert gets harder

to take.

Also it seems I've lost some patience and tolerance for the hot summers.

You can get cabin fever here like folks do in the winter in cold places.

[catmother]

127. i know. every few years i say i'm getting the hell out of here. but

where, california is real expensive and i think will have a major earthquake soon or a tsunamai. we're thinking maybe after my husband retires of building a small place up in the high country. the other alternative would be to leave the country. i've been checking out costa rica -- haven't been there but it's supposed to be beautiful and if you live up high the temperatures are spring like all year round. it would also be nice to live in a country where we're not hated by most of the world.

[AZBlue]

130. I've been thinking of moving abroad too!

I'm not sure where - I'd love to live someplace where the weather is 70-85 degrees all year long, but of course those are the expensive places. I've got to take my parents with me too, so that will be another factor for me to consider. My grandfather is from the UK so I can get a British passport, but that certainly won't help with your last comment ("it would also be nice to live in a country where we're not hated by most of the world.")!!

[AZBlue]

129. It really does

And with temps in the 80's here in January (!) I'm very scared for this summer!

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

135. I know, I know. Facing 4 years of *, I was checking into passports

and places to go after the 04 "election."

Last summer was really hot, so many days over 100, so many over 110.

Even a "dry heat" can be too much.

:blush:

[AZBlue]

140. Who ever invented the phrase "yeah, but it's a dry heat" obviously

never really experienced it firsthand!

I just wonder where you can go to escape the problems from global warming.

[catmother]

141. well actually it is dry. when the dew point is low. the problem is

when the dew point goes over 50 -- it's humid -- and most of the summer the dew point is around 67 so even if the temperature is 110 it's too hot.

i would rather have 115 with a dew point of 10 -- so there is a difference. june seems to be the hottest, driest month. my first summer here -- 1990 -- we hit 123 in june. my spa was up to 112.

as far as the expression "dry heat" maybe that was coined by the early phoenicians back when they didn't have air conditioning. it might have made them feel better, especially if they came from some place that was humid.

[SammyBlue]

6. I live in a border county in Arizona

If you want to protect the border, if the CBPS the tools necessary to do their job. You want to stop illegal immigration, heavily fine the employers.

Don't fall for the BS that the border is porous. It's not. It's a good talking point for the RW because there are illegal immigrants!

They say the same for welfare and public education. People still can't read and are poor. Obviously, those programs don't work. Scrap them!

[pacalo]

8. Funny you should mention this...

Your experience with a Mexican work crew is identical to my experience with a Mexican work crew who recently put a new roof on our house. I was so impressed that I mentioned it to the contractor. They worked continuously until the job was done; like you said, no lunch break!

As they were working, I had noted when I took my dog out for a walk that there was a huge amount of debris in the yard around the house. To my amazement, it was only a very short time that everything -- & I mean every piece -- was picked up after the hammering stopped.

I agree with you about the cashiers, too. The grasp of customer appreciation is almost non-existent. Another thing they haven't learned is that it is more practical to place the change in the customer's hand before the bills; that way, the change doesn't slide off the bills & fall out of the customer's hands. :)

[loudsue]

115. I'm SOOO glad you mentioned that!!

When I was a teenager working in a retail store, we were taught to put the coins in their hands first, and then the bills. COINS ALWAYS SLIP OFF THE BILLS!!! And these days they put the receipt in your hand, too, instead of in your bag. Then it takes forever to separate things out, to put the change in your wallet, and ditch the receipt into the bag.

All of this maneuvering slows up the line behind you, even when a miracle occurs and the coins don't fall all over the floor from slipping off the bills.

Todays clerks are taught to put the coins on top of the bills. Some pig-headed corporate "trainer" just had a brain fart one day in the 80's, and decided to do things differently, and the stupid idea spread like a herpes epidemic.

It's a small thing, but it's a pet peeve of mine.

:kick:

[catmother]

121. i use my credit card. of course, my peeve is the personal

conversations.

[MadHound]

9. Yet if these are illegals,

They are taking away good paying jobs from American citizens. In a time of outsourcing and global competition, we need all the good paying jobs in this country we can get.

And in the long run, it is cheap, illegal labor like this that will bring down the wage scale for all of us.

[ZapaPaine]

15. Don't bring that BS here, keep it in kc

These people aren't taking "good paying jobs from American citizens." They are doing the jobs you and everyone else in this country will not do anymore. They do, in all the industries, the jobs that are labor intensive, that our sweet backs can't take, that our precious hands don't want to stress over. They work crazy hours, oftentimes getting screwed with salary and overtime payment, and never complain. They pick fruit, cotton, vegetables, they build houses and lay cement, they clean up after our messes, they take care of our children. They do the jobs we no longer care to do.

Like all new immigrants they are the slaves to their new country and its citizens. I bet when you purchase all the goods that would otherwise be 15-20% more expensive had immigrants not made them at exploitative wages you don't complain you want to get rid of illegal immigrants. What brings down wages are the corporate world and the legislators that do its bidding, not illegal immigrants. Blame those with power, not the powerless, though it's easier to do so. The vast majority of these people are exploited in ways you will never understand, yet they do their job very well and they don't bitch like most of us tend to do.

Place blame where it belongs, not where you want it to go.

[MadHound]

16. Sorry friend, but construction is a well paying job in this country

One of the few good paying blue collar jobs left in this country. And don't think it is a job only illegals will take. I would say that the majority of people in the construction trade are Anglos.

And quite frankly, if jobs like picking fruit, taking care of children, etc. etc. would pay more, then more Americans would take them. But since the business owner can get cheaper labor from illegals, that is where the jobs go. Like I said, long term net effect is that the wage scale will go down for all of us. In fact that is already happening already in many jobs.

And you seem to be under the impression that I'm blaming the illegals, I'm not. I'm blaming the business owners and capitalists who hire them. Severe penalties for hiring illegal immigrants should be on the books and enforced. Instead, it's a wink, wink, nudge, nudge deal, and all of us, illegals included suffer for it.

[ZapaPaine]

24. Perhaps in your neck of the woods..

But not in mine, where there is tremendous construction going on but the majority of workers are immigrants. Of course the managers and owners are Anglo, but not those at the bottom of the totem pole. The reality is that we of the comfort loving type will refuse to pick crops or degrade ourselves by washing dishes because those jobs are considered "below" us. Even teens today will refuse to work such jobs. Why do you think slaves did the picking way back when? Of course no pay but also hard back breaking work. Only during the Depression, when comfort was nonexistent, and people had to eat and survive day to day, did Anglos get off their ass and pick some fruit. In another 20-40 years the children of today's immigrants will also refuse to work the hard jobs and a new wave of immigrants will be there to become the next slave generation. That is the story of America and of our immigrant history. You are right, though, that those who exploit are to blame. Wages are going down the world over, but not because of immigrants. It is because of greed and capitalism at its worst.

[catmother]

33. i know when i lived in new york construction workers were anglos.

here in arizona it's much different. we have a large mexican population and those are the people that i see working. i see anglos too, but you know what -- i don't know how they do it whether anglo or hispanic -- it's 114 here in the summer and they're out there in the heat putting on roofs --- walking on hot roofs. i can't even imagine being out in that heat doing anything.

[RandomKoolzip]

107. Actually, lots of Americans would take those jobs IF THEY PAID WELL.

That's the big ol' "if" here. Most Americans won't do backbreaking labor id they know they're only gonna get 8 bucks an hour for it. If they were getting paid a livable wage, many would tyake those jobs. Shit, I know *I* would! I work in food service right now, and I have to compete with immigrants who want my job by keeping my pay smaller than I'd like. Cooks used to earn enough to support themselves, but since the huge influx of immigrant and illegal labor, cooks now have to take two or sometimes three jobs at a time (like all the immigrants I work with so) in order to support themselves. I would snap up a construction or some other backbreaking job IF I WOULD GET PAID ENOUGH TO PAY MY BILLS. I *like* getting my hands dirty. I like working hard. I like to sweat at work, and I like the satisfaction of knowing that I put in my best physical effort into making something great. But if at the end of the week, I get a paycheck that doesn't cover my utilities, groceries, and rent, what's the fucking point? What's the incentive for me?

It's not a matter of "oh, poor spoiled Americans don't wanna get their precious hands dirty," it's that they want to be able to live on the wages a hard-labor job ought to pay.

And I don't blame the immigrants for this; I blame the bosses who refuse to hire good workers from the pool of labor ALREADY HERE in favor of some guy from another country who'll do it for a few dollars less an hour.

[zanne]

109. Someone finally states the REAL problem!

Thank you, RandomKoolzip. Not only are employers taking away jobs from Americans; they're LOWERING the minimum-wage bar.

[ZapaPaine]

111. And the ignorant among us scapegoat immigrants...

Easy to do when teevee talking heads and re-election driven politicians spew propadanda about the "brownies" taking away jobs and lowering wages. It is all based on fear, fear, fear, much like the war on terror.

They know that fear of the unknown is a grand blinder of reason.

Meanwhile the real culprits escape our full anger and attention. Just look at this thread for an example of what I am talking about.

[zanne]

112. Did you just call me "ignorant"?

Please let me know so I can decide how to proceed.

[ZapaPaine]

116. no, not at all..

i agree with you 100%, in fact I loved your comments. Just building a little solidarity. sorry if you got the impression i did.

[Strelnikov_]

131. Like You Said

Meatpacking jobs (in the midwest) paid a middle class wage ($20/hr) in the 70's. These jobs provided good health care and retirement benefits because they were unionized. As was related by a worker from this era, the social contract was that it was hard, dangerous work that left most workers crippled when they retired, and the compensation reflected this.

Over the 70's and 80's non-union plants were opened, and the unionized plants closed or the unions busted. As compensation was much lower at the non-union plants, U.S. citizens abandoned the industry, and the labor void was filled with immigrant's. Since the supply of this labor is virtually unlimited, compensation and workplace safety has plummeted.

The 70's era worker, in the interview I heard, indicated that there would be no problem attracting U.S. citizens to the industry if compensation and workplace conditions were similar to the 70's.

Here is an excerpt from a study that describes the change in the meatpacking industry in Storm Lake, Iowa:

Meatpacking And The Migration Of Refugee And Immigrant Labor To Storm Lake, Iowa
http://migration.ucdavis.edu/cf/comments.php?id=154_0_2_0

The Hygrade workforce was primarily male and of European descent. Only in its last few years of operation, in the late l970s to early 1980s, did a few women work on the plant floor. The plant’s workforce was from Storm Lake and surrounding communities. Prior to the mid-1980s, Storm Lake was almost exclusively Anglo, and this homogeneity was reflected in Hygrade’s workforce. Many of Hygrade’s workers put in thirty years or more at the plant, reflecting a low turnover. For many, their jobs supported a comfortable, middle-class lifestyle. Average annual incomes were about $30,000, but some senior workers earned up to $40,000 or more in Hygrade’s last year of operation.

In October 1981, Hygrade closed its plant and Storm Lake lost five hundred jobs. Community leaders immediately set about attracting a new buyer for the plant.

In April 1982 IBP announced its purchase of the plant for $2.5 million. After extensive renovation, this became the company's first pork-packing facility (IBP previously had processed only beef.) IBP’s move into pork processing signaled a major transformation of the industry.

When IBP opened its doors in September 1982, its workforce did not resemble the old Hygrade crew. Hundreds of former Hygrade workers applied, but fewer than thirty were hired. IBP would look beyond the Storm Lake community for its laborers. Beginning wages were only $6 an hour, and health benefits become available only after six months on the job. (Today, starting wages are $7 an hour.) The new plant had higher productivity expectations than the old plant. Injury rates climbed, and high employee turnover increased the strain on local labor supplies.

[Zookeeper]

138. Wow! Where are you from?

I've traced my American ancestors back to 1735 and even recent generations have done plenty of unpleasant, dangerous and difficult jobs. Coal mining, working in auto factories. But they were UNION jobs and paid a living wage. I've met "Anglos" who have worked in chicken processing plants, slaughterhouses; who still work as hotel maids and cooks in areas that don't have a lot of illegal immigrants that can be hired for lower wages. I have a teenager who would have been happy to get a crummy fast food job last summer, but they weren't hiring teens because they had such a large pool of illegal aliens to choose from.

You sound angry and you're making some bizarre generalizations. I believe that Americans will do any job that pays a livable wage. And, yes, I am willing to pay more for goods if it means that Americans have jobs.

BTW, I'm not against LEGAL immigration.

[guidod]

32. You're 100% right.

I agree with you and, if you listen, so does Thom Hartmann.

[PassingFair]

65. I agree with you too, MadHound...

I know MANY good working folk in Michigan who are not averse to breaking a sweat.

The crime is $5.00/hr or LESS wage that ILLEGAL immigrants get to do skilled labor.

[Berserker]

31. Now here is a crock of shit

Don't bring that BS here, keep it in kc
Posted by ZapaPaine
These people aren't taking "good paying jobs from American citizens." They are doing the jobs you and everyone else in this country will not do anymore. They do, in all the industries, the jobs that are labor intensive, that our sweet backs can't take, that our precious hands don't want to stress over.

Those of us who work construction and other LABOR INTENSIVE jobs resent this type of bullshit. And man is that a huge steaming pile of BULLSHIT. I love that type of statement the hatred really shows through. Rightwing talking points all the way. So from what I see in the above posts tells me its better to not take a break and to work without them that makes for better workmanship? The original poster says it all she says "she don't care" because if you did care about Americans and people who do bust their ass working in the construction trade you would make sure they are not illegals and make sure the contractor had a license and Workman's comp like other contractors have to have and then try to compete. Most of the people I see post shit like what was posted saying they don't care have NEVER had to worry about their jobs being taken away by illegal workers. I just hope your children have to worry about having their jobs taken away and can't support their family's and then tell them HEY I DON"T CARE THEY DO GOOD WORK and they don't even take a break.

[ZapaPaine]

34. Man, are you writing while drunk?

Talk about incoherent poop. Anyway, yeah, there are many hard working natives in construction. I assume you are one of them. But there are many, many forms of back breaking jobs nobody wants, not just construction. In many instances picking fruit and veggies is much harder work, but you don't see Americans doing those jobs. Just look inside the kitchen to your favorite neighborhood restaurant, assuming you don't live in North Dakota or Maine. All immigrants. To the berserker: undocumented immigrants do not take your jobs. It is your bosses that take your jobs. It is greed that takes your job. And hey, I don't care who does the job. If it is done well, like the OP says, then that is who I am going with. Talent and ability does count for something.

[guidod]

63. I suggest you take the time

and look at Post #38 and listen to the link.

[catmother]

74. i did. nt

[PassingFair]

68. In boom times, you PERHAPS would have a point.

Have you ANY CLUE what is happening to the status of the working person in America today?

I had to go out and get a job after running my own business for over 15 years, just to get health insurance for my family.

It only paid $10.00 per hour to start and I WAS GLAD TO GET IT!

I am 46 years old.

I would not turn down ANY job that kept a roof over my children's head.

And I don't think either Frank Zappa NOR Thomas Paine would have supported the double curse of outsourcing and illegal immigration.

Perhaps GoldwaterHamilton would be a better moniker for you.

[ZapaPaine]

86. Yes, and it has nothing to do with immigrants

You are repeating the line those with hidden interests want you to repeat. Wage supression has everything to do with capitalism and the greed by corporations. It is happening throughout the country, paying low wages because profit over people runs the show, or haven't you seen the enormous bonuses and salaries of CEOs and executives? Why don't you blame them? Their figures dwarf any damage undocumented workers have on US workers. As for outsourcing, is that the undocumented workers' fault as well? Blame capitalism, blame greed, blame the good old boy network, blame corporations and the politicians they own. It is so easy to blame immigrants, isn't it?

By the way, Zapa is not for Frank, but for Zapatistas. You should read their manifesto sometime. It would cover you.

What the corporate government has done to you is a disgrace. But it is not the fault of the immigrants here, most of which take jobs you would never dream of doing. Your scapegoat has been conditioned into you because it is convenient, because it hides the real culprits. I feel for you, but the question is, do YOU have a clue what is happening to the average worker in this country?

Good luck.

[PassingFair]

89. Puhleeze...

Thank you for "feeling" for me.

Of COURSE I blame the corporatists. But I would have the employers FINED or JAILED for hiring illegals. The natural result: less work for illegals.

The COMBINED effects of outsourcing and the use of illegal workers (especially in construction) is especially harmful.

And to answer your question, YES, I "do have a clue what is happening to the average worker.

I'm in a blue state, we are not chronically dependant on illegals up here. I have never had an illegal gardener or "nanny". I have never missed it.

[ZapaPaine]

91. if you are not chronically dependent on undocumenteds then..

why do you bitch about them? If they haven't affected you then why do you scapegoat? And you just stated the reality: many parts of the nation are DEPENDENT on these poor people. Without them there would be trouble. You have just stated why they are so necessary.

And by the way, why label them illegal. Is it because that is what the teevee tells you to call them? Is that what the great gods called 'democrats' tell you to call them? The term illegal conotes ideas of criminality, when the vast majority of these folk are good and decent hard working people in need of jobs. It has been manipulated to indoctrinate good people like you that these workers are bad and trouble and bad entities. Stop falling for the bait the puppeteers have placed for you. They are undocumented. No human being should be called illegal simply because they want a better life. What makes you better than them?

If you were in their position you would run, walk and jump across the border as well. How about a little empathy?

One more thing. Are you aware how NAFTA was the mechanism that enabled the wave of Latin American immigration? Yes, NAFTA, American made and implemented, personally signed by Clinton himself. Created in 1994, it directly led to the impoverishment of Latin Americans, thus starting the wave northwards. It seems we reap what we sow. Think long and hard. "Illegal" immigrants are all our fault.

[PassingFair]

93. Your information is disabled, but you seem to have the collective

knowledge of a 12 year old.

"the reality: many parts of the nation are DEPENDENT on these poor people. Without them there would be trouble. You have just stated why they are so necessary."

Like slaves were "necessary" to the south?
Ween yourself OFF the low wage slavery mentality!

Even with dual working parents, there's really no NEED for housekeepers/slaves/gardeners.

I do not HATE the illegal workers. I AM seeing a trend in the construction industry in hiring ...ahem ..."undercover" workers. Many multi-generation family businesses here are unable to compete with shyster contractors who rip off by paying their people next to nothing.

As for your NAFTA thesis...

"Created in 1994, it directly led to the impoverishment of Latin Americans, thus starting the wave northwards." :rofl:

Right! It was all pina col adas and roses in Latin America until 1994!

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PassingFair]

102. Thank you for your pity.

We "diluted" folks are, like, so clueless.

"When did you first start bitching about the "brown" people."
You do not know me, nor have you ever heard me "bitch" about "brown people".

Latin Americans WERE streaming across our borders in the 1980's.
In fact, many things actually occurred BEFORE the 90's.

I was marching for better conditions for migrant farm workers and boycotting grapes when I was 12.

You were probably playing Pokemon.

Fight on, tiny revolutionary. But please, spare ME the drivel....

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

118. That is total nonsense

There were quite large numbers of immigrants in the 1980's. In point of fact the laws that tripped up Clinton's first two choices for Attorney General were passed in the 1980's in response to the growing problem. It is completely nonsensical to state that we didn't have a large number of undocumented aliens coming to the US in the 1980's. NAFTA may have made a bad problem worse, but it was a huge problem in the 1980's.

[The Straight Story]

136. As an FYI the reason I myself would call them illegals

Is we only give out so many work visas per year and I am pretty sure there are a lot more folks here illegally than legally.

That alone is bothersome - someone breaks our laws and we are patting them on the back. And if they work around some of the people I have known (and some do) they get paid under the table and hence no taxes taken out, ie $5/hr is actually 5/hr so they are making more than a legal person here would doing the same job.

I remember one of my first jobs I made 4.50/hr and took home $109/week. If paid under table would bring in 180. What some of the companies I know about here (construction, not sure about food places as I don't know anyone that owns one) do is have several legal workers that go to the sites and get paid pretty well so it looks like the money is all going to those people, whereas it is really going to them and the undocumented workers. The books look ok because they are paying out what they say they are, they just use a middleman for the core pay.

So yeah it can be frustrating for people I know in the construction business who are trying to make ends meet and unless you play the game (hiring illegals) you start to lose money as you cannot offer a cheaper rate (as has happend to my good buddy who runs a small business). The other folks can do more work more quickly and get more jobs in so they are sucking up his work. If he hires more people he has a lot more paperwork, pay, and so on to deal with.

[Gormy Cuss]

77. Check your prejudice at the door.

Have you ever been to North Dakota or Maine? Immigrants are there, friend. Some of them are probably undocumented. If you don't understand that undocumented immigrants are causing wage suppression in construction trades you aren't paying attention.

They may still be the only ones willing to work for nothing in the fields but we'd be a better country if we let them work here with the same labor law protections as everyone else. If the undocumented workers weren't plentiful substitutes, the bosses would have to pay up. It's onshore offshoring --substituting a cheaper labor force to save money.

Those hard workers are scared to death that they won't be called back or worse yet won't get paid if the boss sees them taking a break.

[ZapaPaine]

87. Duh. Of course they are there. You missed the point.

Point being that these states most likely have the least amount of immigrants from Mexico than other states, such as Texas and California. Just a little difference, don't you think? Again, blaming a group with little political party is convenient, when the real culprits, corporatists and capitalists and government officials create a scapegoat that you conveniently grip your animosity towards. Scapegoating these poor people is as American as apple pie. Same thing happened during every singly wave of immigration in our history. You are part of the same trend. Congratulations.

By the way, without immigrants, you would be paying 20-30% more for the goods you purchase. Even more for goods outsourced to India or China. I don't think you complain about THAT aspect of the evils of immigration and outsourcing, do you? Your comfort and consumerism is built upon the exploitation of the same people you easily exploit. How convenient, rag on the same people making your life easier.

The exploitation OF immigrants is the issue, not the exploitation BY immigrants. It is easy to follow the party line and spit out what the talking heads shout out. Start thinking for yourself.

[Gormy Cuss]

88. Duh, You missed the point.

I don't care if my goods cost 20-30% more. I do care about exploitation of vulnerable people.
You aren't paying attention. I made very clear that the exploitation of undocumented immigrants is the issue. I just don't parrot the "immigrants built this country" bullshit that gets passed off as a defense of these abused and exploited people. If they are given legal status, they have protection. As long as they are illegal they will be exploited.

[ZapaPaine]

90. We're on opposite ends of the same side

I, however, am a big believer that immigration will always be of benefit to any nation. It introduces new life, new blood, new talents, new culture, new ways of thinking. It's what has made this nation great for the last 100 years. Immigrants will always be feared by the ignorant because humans fear what they do not know or understand. If the economy is good (1990's) they will be left alone. If it turns sour (today) they are made scapegoats and the backlash begins. People are so predictable. But eventually they will be incorporated into society, making the nation better. This wave will be nothing different. It is inevitable. It is history. The quicker we learn to deal with this reality the easier life will be. Blaming "brown" people, only because they are different is easy for those less endowed with the faculty of reason. It is those with vested interests that condition us to scapegoat these poor people. In the end, America will become a better nation thanks to immigration.

[Gormy Cuss]

95. Where did I blame "brown" people?

We aren't on opposite sides. I don't support illegal immigration. It's bad for the immigrants, it's bad for the rest of us.
You apparently think that as long as "brown people" are exploited it's all hunky dory. How conservative of you.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Strelnikov_]

134. And I, Myself, Have No Problem With Legal Immigration

I have a big problem with the symbotic relationship between illegal immigration and the labor black market.

It appears to me that (uncontrolled) immigrant labor fills a void that it perpetuates, low wages that make the jobs undesirable due to an oversupply of labor, the classic supply/demand relationship. All the current immigration policy of this country does is create a black market for labor, exploiting those who are here illegally, and driving down the wages and working conditions so for legal residents and immigrants the job is a step backward.

Of course, from the lofty perch of a tenured teaching position, a defined benefit/trust fund annuity, or college paid by the parents, the impact of the labor black market on the middle and lower class working people of this country seems to be, well, no problem at all.

What we need is a guest worker program to stop the exploitation of immigrants and end the flooding of the labor market due to uncontrolled immigration. This will address illegal immigration by dealing with demand (employers).

Some thoughts on immigration policy from John Sayles which sums up my feelings on this issue.

John Sayles
From:A People's Democratic Platform

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040802&s=forum

The Democratic platform should call for an end to the hypocrisy of our immigration policy. Our current policy, an enormously expensive cat-and-mouse game, most notably on our southern border, calls on the INS to enforce immigration laws that are openly expected to be ignored by countless US industries and private employers. Some sort of regulated guest-worker program is needed.

Once it is in place, if immigrants continue to enter the country illegally and can't find work, word will filter back and the numbers will decrease dramatically. While in our country, however, those guest workers need to be protected from exploitation--to be assured they will be paid for their work, that their working conditions will meet state and federal safety standards and that they will receive no less than the federally mandated minimum wage (which needs to be raised).

Employers would be required to withhold some percentage (perhaps the equivalent of federal taxes and Social Security) from wages to help defray the costs of the program. Penalties for hiring foreign workers outside of the program would be high enough (and sufficiently enforced) to end the black market in labor that is thriving now.

Protecting all workers in this country is an important first step toward the amendment or abolition of NAFTA and the protection of workers throughout the world.

Is John Sayles 'Blaming the Brown People' too?

[catmother]

37. the contractor gave me a card with his license number, his

workman's compensation insurance and his bond information. so you think i should ask if all his workers are legal?

and speaking of breaks, i worked with lawyers for years and when something had to be done, there were no breaks (except bathroom), we ate lunch while we worked (in some cases dinner). i worked for 9 years as a temp for a major company. the reason they kept me on that long was because i would work without a break, i was always available for overtime and i was pleasant too. they paid me well and treated me well. on the other hand the permanent employees did not want to give up lunch or work overtime, but they had their benefits, their holidays were paid for and they had a nice pension to look forward to. i didn't, but i have no regrets.

[LWolf]

142. To be frank, I don't see the difference.

I lived in the SW most of my life; I never asked my neighbors, friends, or students what their "status" was. Working in the public sector, I knew better to assume that spanish speaking peoples with little or no english were "illegal;" many of them were first and second generations born here. Where they were born, or how they got here, didn't matter to me. What mattered were that they were good people; hard-working, with loving families and strong communities. They put more positive things into the community than they took out. I'm be happy to have them as neighbors instead of the over-priveleged white male citizens running the country today. Not that that's likely to be a concern, lol. TPTB wouldn't live in the neighborhoods I've spent my life in.

[catmother]

145. thank you for the post. we think alike. nt

[400Years]

10. it rains in Phoenix?

[catmother]

12. oh yes. some real heavy rain. it should be a rainy season now

but it's been dry -- and in the summer we get the monsoons and flooding.

[Jara sang]

18. That was my first thought.

[hwmnbn]

13. Therein lies the predicament........

All indications are that these particular mexican "laborers" are hard-working and conscientious folks who want to do a good job. Some are skilled craftsman who do exemplary work. I will bet they are getting below average wages and NO benefits. The opportunity to work has always been this country's biggest draw.

Is the white business owner providing that opportunity, or is he exploiting these powerless people? That's a tough call and most likely the truth is somewhere in the middle.

My only issue is when these mexican workers are demonized by politicians pandering to their bigotted repug base. Those same politicians never mention the "american" workers you noted. It is always easier to bash the foreigners, regardless of the evidence. I'm glad you at least notice that disparity. You sound like your years have given you an open mind, thanks for sharing your experience.

[Cleita]

14. American laborers don't like the illegals because the work for

less, yet they don't want to invite them into their unions. If they did then it would solve a lot of problems. The border problem is one that has been made up by the Republicans.

They want the illegals to remain as such so that they can exploit them in the job market. You know cheaper nannies, housekeepers, restaurant and hotel workers, and now the construction business.

They won't stop the flow of people looking for a better life, but they make the racist Americans think that because they are illegal they should be persecuted. This way they have to live as stateless people with no rights. They can be exploited and they are.

[donheld]

19. Denver has many many workers from south of the border

You can't find harder working nicer people in the world. I don't care what their status is either. We are being trained to be afraid of all the wrong things. In my opinion we have more native born terrorists in DC than any place on earth but were wetting ourselves over latino/hispanic people who never have lifted a finger to harm us.

[lonestarnot]

21. Well you're doing some wishful thinking installing rain gutters.

[catmother]

27. eventually it will rain. do you remember last year we had so

much rain that all the weeds and stuff that grows in the desert flourished. then came summer, and it was all dead so we had fires. now they're saying that because we didn't have rain everything is dry and we're going to have an early fire season.

[lonestarnot]

105. Today is the record breaker.

[catmother]

119. i think i'll go outside and do a "rain dance".

;(

[SmokingJacket]

22. While I basically agree with you, I think people who want jobs done

should pay more.

Business owners are always complaining that they can't get anyone except illegal aliens to do these jobs -- but that's because they're not paying enough.

Business owners are taking advantage of the fact that these people are desperate.

[catmother]

29. and it's not just illegals. it's americans whose jobs have been

outsouced or the company has cutback and they have to feed themselves and their families. bushco says unemployment is down, but they don't take into account that those formerly unemployed people took lower paying jobs.

[Love Bug]

26. My next door neighbors are from Mexico

They bought a house and several cars, work and pay taxes. Don't know if they are legal or not. I'm not losing any sleep over it.

[catmother]

30. nor would i. i just got off the phone with a neighbor and we were

talking about the new people who built a house near mine. it must have cost them 3/4 million to build this house. they're in their early 30s, 2 little kids, he drives a caddy, she drives a mercedes. he told me he was in the door business (wrought iron, etc). he told my other neighbor that he was a pilot but only flew once in a while. i said "who knows maybe they're drug dealers".

[fishnfla]

35. The grocery stores here hire retirees to cashier and bag

They talk amongst themselves too, all the time. This is a big deal to you?
Um, why?

[catmother]

36. yes because it's rude. they should be concentrating on the

customer.

[bleedingheart]

40. so you are saying that if people chit chat while working it is rude

so if someone is bagging my groceries I have the right to say ..."hear now peasant...no idle chatter...(sound of whip)...bag faster...for I have places to go"

maybe its me...but I don't care as long as they do their job...

[catmother]

42. no one is calling them peasants. it's just a matter of being polite.

i know it can be a crummy job so i will go out of my way to chit chat with the cashiers, the people who slice my meet, etc.

you obviously are from a different generation than i am.

anyone my age out there, know what i'm talking about?

[bleedingheart]

67. I will converse with cashiers and the like...

but I also don't care if the cashier and the bagger have a conversation...hell I consider it a luxury to have a cashier or bagger.

My local grocery store has self check outs in most slots and I have to ring up and bag my own....

[catmother]

75. my grocery store has that too, but i choose to use the cashier.

[AZBlue]

132. I know exactly what you are talking about.

A conversation I had to listen to today at Fry's:

Bag-boy (appeared to be about 16): "There's some Asian girls in my class."
Cashier(appeared to be in her 40s): Chuckles. "Are they cute?"
Bag-boy: "Except for the fat ones, all asians are good-lookin'"
Cashier: Laughs again. "And you know, they are good workers too"

I'm not making this up.

I didn't want to hear comments about fat people since I'm overweight. I didn't want to hear racial stereotyping. I just wanted to pay for my groceries and go home, but their inane conversation slowed them down and at one point they actually stopped to stand there and have this discussion.

[guidod]

38. Can you please do youself a favor?

Most of the people on this thread are talking about Reganomics and promoting it. Can you take 30 minutes and listen to what Thom Hartmann has to say about Immigration, he makes a lot of sense? Here's the link.


http://www.louisehartmann.com/clips/LaborUnions/TH-101603-LU.mp3

[catmother]

45. okay i listened. he makes a lot of sense, nt

[guidod]

51. Thanks, good job.

[catmother]

57. i'm always open for learning new things. nt

[bleedingheart]

39. Guess what I have had Americans do great work for me as well..

I have had patio work, roof work, gutter work, new vinyl pillars, a kitchen installed and a bathroom installed....all by Americans...and they did a great job and I know that they were all well paid craftsmen/women.

I have no bias against American or non-American workers... lazy people come in all varieties...just as hardworking people do...

What I do want to point out is that the mexicans who may have been doing that work may be terribly underpaid and possibly may be in fear of being deported if the boss isn't happy with their work...meanwhile if one of them needs some medical work...Americans will scream..."why are we paying for their medicine"....

[catmother]

43. when i lived in new york, it was americans doing the work. here

in arizona there's a large mexican population -- so those are the people who seem to be doing the work. also this is a "right to work" state. there aren't many unions.

and you will never hear me complain about paying for medicine for mexicans or americans.

[JeffR]

41. Canadian Border?

The only concern at the Canadian border would be preventing Americans who have just had enough from coming to Canada illegally, becoming a drain on the universal health-care system, eating all the poutine (french fries & cheese curds drowned in gravy, y'all) and mispronouncing aboot.

I'll tell Nance you've got this thread going, see if she can tweak you too.

Jeff.

:smoke:

[Cleita]

44. All kinds of illegals come through the Canadian border but no

one bats an eyelash about them because they are all white and speak English. I have met Irish, English, Scots, New Zealanders, Australians, various white Africans in my life time. Most of them came in illegally through Canada because as part of the Britsh commonwealth they were welcome there. It was only a hop, skip and a jump for them to cross over into America.

[JeffR]

46. Sceptical

I'm not discounting your anecdotal observations, but I've never seen convincing news coverage from either side of the border to support the notion that there's a wave of illegal immigration coming into the country from the Great White North.

[catmother]

49. didn't they catch terrorists who were planning something for

Y2K?

[JeffR]

52. CSIS and the Mounties have done some good anti-terror work

It never makes the American media, though. Doesn't fit in with the old "Soviet Canuckistan" narrative.

[catmother]

55. no. we don't hear much about canada. nt

[Cleita]

53. Yes, they did, up in Seattle, crossing the border from Canada. n/t

[Cleita]

50. I worked as a waitress in a Scottish fish and chips shop and

as a bartender in an Irish bar for more than ten years in Los Angeles and believe me there were as many illegal white people in that town as there were illegal Mexicans. I'm still friends with many of them who found an American to get married to and eventually get a Green Card or who were able to obtain one through a couple of amnesties that were offered in the past.

I'm sure you don't want to consider that white people would do anything illegal like brown people do, but honey they do. I'm sure if you want proof the INS could provide you with stats from the amnesties offered. You may be surprised to find as many N. European names as Spanish.

Also, as a born American Hispanic, I really resent your observation that No. Europeans don't break our laws.

[JeffR]

56. Back up

My observation?

What you read ain't what I wrote. As far as I'm concerned white people pretty much pioneered and perfected illegal, and there's not a thing in what I posted to suggest that no Europeans break our laws.

As I said, I'll accept your anecdotal observations as valid and sincere. But if you're convinced the INS has some dynamite info on this, post a link.

And for the record, I favor immediate amnesty for illegal immigrants, and trade policies that would actually benefit people in Mexico and further south. We all know that people - brown, white, whatever - want in to America based on hope.

Except of course for terrorists, and that's the real danger in this whole issue.

[Cleita]

61. Whatever, but you back up before you call me a liar.

I'm not Condeleeza, but just for the record, my late husband was an Irish immigrant. He was legal because he was sponsored by American relatives in New York, but like all immigrants they find each other in a new country, so I knew a lot of illegal white Europeans through him. One even lives up the road from me even now although we are two hundred miles away from LA. He entered the USA illegally years ago with his wife through Canada. My husband and he knew each other in Ireland. He's legal now.

I didn't even mention all the Danes, Swedes and Norwegians who were brought over here as au pairs on a visitors visa and once their gig was up, stayed here illegally. I don't know were you live, but all you have to do is go into any large city on either coast and go to the ethnic neighborhoods and you will soon find out that more than just a few are here illegally and that they came through Canada for the most part.

No one is going to advertise it so links might be hard to come by, but just because something like this can't be proved except by direct observation doesn't mean it's not true. After all did the OP say there were Mexicans working on her gutters, but she didn't know if they were legal or not? No one is asking for links for her veracity?

[JeffR]

62. Nobody called you a liar

In fact, twice I said I accepted your observations. But I don't draw sweeping conclusions from my personal observations.

No one called you Condoleeza either, but at this point I think it's fair to call you a little hypersensitive. If you knew me, or knew anything about me, you'd know better than to level accusations of racism in my direction.

The OP is from my sister-in-law, and all she was noting was HER personal observations, and asking for comments from others. That, we have all given her.

As to this sidebar between us, please don't mistake someone who would likely be your friend with someone who looks down on you. Because that's just not me.

[Cleita]

66. You said:

I'm not discounting your anecdotal observations, but I've never seen convincing news coverage from either side of the border to support the notion that there's a wave of illegal immigration coming into the country from the Great White North.

Translation: I think you are lying because there is no evidence. I'm sure there is a website out there where all illegals post to saying, "Hey, I'm in this country illegally." :sarcasm:

Since the news seems to want to concentrate on brown people coming across our southern border, I'm sure there isn't much out there to link to until the media starts to do investigative pieces on this, there won't be. I believe the INS would be the only place to get stats if they are willing to release them.

I am very sensitive to this issue. You see I'm a white hispanic from South America so I don't look like a Mexican. White people have felt very free all my life to talk about "beaners" and other names they call Spanish speaking brown people around me. I'm tired of the racism and I will correct anyone about this, anyone.

The big stink these days has been about our southern border leaks, no one wants to talk about the northern border leaks, so I will always point that out. It's time to be fair and balanced. Don't you agree?

[JeffR]

69. I do

Despite that unconvincing "translation".

And I agree the problem of the porous northern border is something the media ought to investigate. My original point was only that I haven't seen anything in the American or Canadian media that I found convincing regarding a high volume of illegals coming through Canada.

I didn't and don't think you're lying. And I didn't mean to be flippant about sensitivity. I've been subject to bigotry myself (long story, won't go into it here) and I get what you're saying.

I just want you to get my belief that ethnic/racial/religious discrimination is one of the very few things I would describe as truly obscene. I think you and I concur on that, and more power - literally and figuratively - to both of us for it.

And back to my original point, I'm a Floridian but have lived in Canada for many years. There was a flurry of interest in the US/Canada border issue after September 11, and then it dropped off the radar. I asked for a link because, as an American resident in Canada, it hits close to home in both senses of the word.

And - WAY off topic - I started working last year for a magazine here in Toronto that's headquartered next door to the Venezuelan Consulate. For months I've been considering writing a letter to Chavez commending him for standing up to Bush, and hand-delivering it. I haven't bounced the idea off anyone before now. Do you think should I do it? I'd write it in Spanish but my "command" of the language tapered off around 1966.

[Cleita]

70. Yes, but do it in English.

They have translators. I do my correspondence in English as well, because my Spanish isn't so hot anymore either. I usually attach a note in Spanish apologizing for writing in English because of my Spanish being rusty from lack of use these days.

[JeffR]

73. But do you think he would care?

Of course, I'd want to emphasize that I'm an American, even though it's delivered to a consulate in Canada.

[Cleita]

78. I don't know the mind of Chavez, but it seems to me he would

happy for any support he gets particularly from an American. You be careful though that it doesn't fall into the hands of our spooks.

[catmother]

80. well i'm glad to see that you and my brother-in-law have settled

your differences.:toast:

[catmother]

54. oh jeff. your getting yourself in trouble already. lol

[JeffR]

58. Some folks just aren't happy

Unless they can find bigotry where none exists.
:scared:

[catmother]

59. don't i know it. did you see the post where i allegedly think of

grocery cashiers as peasants?

[JeffR]

60. Yikes

I was always mistaking peasants for grocery cashiers myself, until I got my new bifocals.

[catmother]

47. would you by any chance be jeff of nancy & jeff?

[JeffR]

48. That's aboot right.

:hi:

[Skidmore]

71. So are you paying them the fair wage or the substandard wage

that their contractor will pass on to them.

[catmother]

81. i have no idea what he's paying them. i don't ask questions like

that when i hire someone to do work.

[Skidmore]

82. Maybe it wouldn't hurt to do so.

[catmother]

84. i was about to edit my post when i saw yours. i hired some

mexicans to do some painting around my house and i paid them more than they asked for. they did such a good job -- i felt they deserved more -- but that's me.

i didn't think this posted -- it was acting weird. so excuse the double message.

[catmother]

85. i know when i hired some mexicans to paint my house -- they

gave me a price. but when they were finished i felt they deserved more -- so i paid them more -- but that's me.

they worked for me for a few days and we really got to know each other. talked about our families, etc. i know that some people do not treat them nice. i have a friend who has a mexican cleaning woman. she pays her $10.00 an hour. a neighbor asked my friend what she was paying and when she heard she said "that's too much." my friend said "why" she answered "because she's mexican".

[catmother]

83. well i think i've had enough of this thread. i'm going to lie down

and relax and watch some TV. thank you all for your comments both positive and negative. we do tend to disagree at times, but we're all still democrats.

[Maestro]

92. I work with them every day.

They are indeed hard-working and proud. Thanks for posting.

[leesa]

101. Stop listening to the propaganda. Anyone who wants to blow up a building

can get in on a legal visa or in a lottery visa like the Saudis do. All of the phony 9-11 alleged "terrorists" had legal visas. Quit playing into their fear games.

[Hello_Kitty]

104. Another Zonie here

Illegal immigration is the perennial favorite topic here. People on both sides of the political divide grumble about it. I don't get it. Some claim they bring a criminal element with them but most of the crooks I see on the local news appear to have been born and raised in the U.S. Or they grouse about all the money spent on services for illegals. However, I'll wager they contribute more to our state economy than they take from it or else they wouldn't be here.

Arizonans don't like illegal immigration but don't bother to take a look at who is doing their landscaping. Yeah, it might be Bob the Anglo Dude's company but trust me, it's not his ass out there pulling your weeds. Those are Mexican day laborers that he picks up at the street corner. My ex b/f had a landscaping business and that's exactly what he did. Ditto most restaurants in the kitchen. And that supermarket where the American kids lolled around? Guess who's stocking the shelves in the middle of the night? You got it.

I wish sometimes that these idiots here would get what they want. Deport every illegal alien out of this state since that's what they want so badly. People would starve in their dirty houses, I swear to god.

Which is not to say that I don't think the underlying wage issues and global economic disparities should be addressed. I absolutely do. But I think most kneejerk anti-illegals haven't thought the issue through and want someone to scapegoat.

[Speed8098]

106. Have you heard of "Farmingville" NY?

I live one town away from Farmingville and let me tell you it is not a pretty sight. 30 - 40 people to a house. No wonder the illegals can afford to work for lesser wages.

It's not that "Americans" (white, brown, black, yellow or otherwise) don't want these types of jobs, the fact is, most "Americans" won't live in those conditions.

I can feel the flames coming.



Stay with me here
For example, a concrete or landscaping company places an ad in the local newspaper for a laborer that pays $8.00 per hour.
$8.00 per hour = $320.00 per week before taxes based on a 40 hour work week.
Let's say that F.I.C.A. is only 6.5%, that's a $20.00 deduction
Federal income Tax is 7% equaling a deduction of $22.40
We'll give Medicare 1.5% equaling a deduction of $4.80
New York State Tax is 5% which equals a deduction of $16.00
And finally let's take the $.50 NY disability deduction
So we have
$320.00 gross
-$20.00 F.I.C.A
-$22.40 Fed Inc Tax
- $4.80 Medicare
-$16.00 NYS Tax
- $.50 NYS Dis
That gives us a total deduction of $63.70 leaving a net pay of $256.30

Now let's look at what that has to cover every week.
$800.00 per month rent equals $200.00 pr week, and I'm being conservative here as my fellow New Yorkers know.
That leaves $56.30 per week to cover food, clothing, medicine if it's needed, car insurance, gasoline for the car, not to mention cable or a telephone.

How is anyone supposed to live on that, much less save for anything.

No, it's not that "Americans" won't do that type of work, it's that they can't afford to.

Do the numbers yourself.

It's not bigotry to want people to stop coming here illegally, it's survival.

Ok, I've donned my asbestos suit, so flame away.

[catmother]

122. i won't flame you. you're absolutely right. especially in new york

i made $18.00 an hour in new york (1988). that kind of work is now paying about $22.00 an hour. i would have had a difficult time living on that. now i have a friend who is making ahout $21.00 an hour. he lives in a sleezy apartment in jersey city where his rent is $850. he has a hard time living. and it's not like he spends recklessly.

now here in phoenix there was a sign in my local grocery store. help wanted. $8.30 an hour. even though the cost of living is not as high here, i don't know how anyone can live on that unless they're living home with their parents, or a senior who's collecting social security and is supplementing their income.

didn't michael moore say if everyone made $40,000 a year we wouldn't have crime. that was a few years ago -- so let's make it $50,000 now. everyone should make a decent wage and have health coverage. i am truly blessed that my husband has been with his company for 36 years and makes a very good salary. if his job were outsourced at least he would get a pension, but he's only 58 and would have to wait until age 62 to start collecting social security.

and i certainly do not have the answers -- if i did i would run for office. lol

[rman]

110. You're perpetuating the RW lie that "Americans are lazy",

which that same RW uses as an excuse for outsourcing and insourcing of jobs.

The real reason why big corporations love outsourcing is because it allows them to reduce labor cost, which increases their profit.

[catmother]

123. my husband said that some of the technical jobs are being

outsourced because we don't have enough people with those skills anymore. our education system is a mess.

don't flame me -- i'm no longer in the workforce so i have to go by what he tells me.

we've also made sacrifices so he can stay employed. last year he worked 8 months in minneapolis. this year it was richmond, va. for 8 weeks. fortunately right now he's in town, but if there's no work here, he has to go where it is. he was just offered a spot in turkey (yes turkey). last year he was offered one in scotland and just recently there was a 2-month assignment in brazil, which maybe would have been fun -- if we didn't have my mom and cats to look after. i might have said "take it i'll go with you".

a few years ago he was only home one week a month the rest was on the road. yes he did come home on weekends. on 9/11 he was in chicago and i was here in phoenix. my mom was not living here then and i felt so alone. he kept his rental car and drove home.

my sisters 2nd husband worked in DC. they lived in SC. it was a very good job for a young man. after a few years my sister couldn't take it. they divorced.

and if he has to travel again, so be it -- we'll get through it.

[rman]

137. Guess who made a mess out of the education system?

Besides, how much skill does the average mass-production manufacturing job take? I don't think the poor Chinese in the sweatshops are better educated then most Americans.

Low skill jobs, ie service jobs are also being outsourced.

In case of jobs that do require skill - such as software programming - if a corporation can choose between two equally qualified workers, one in india for $2 an hour, and another in the US for $10/hr - which one will they pick?

Either way the fact that labor in developing nations is so much cheaper certainly is not irrelevant to the big corporations.

Those illegal Mexican workers may be skilled and productive, but they also accept lower wages because they don't pay taxes, nor do the corporations pay taxes for those wages. So they're cheaper for the corporations, and it should not be news that the bottom line is the only thing that counts in the corporate world. It has come to the point where the measure of how well a corporation is doing, is the extend to which its profits are growing - in order to do well they have to continuously reduce costs (which includes labor costs).

If NAFTA would have really helped Mexico, there would be no reason for Mexican workers to (illegally) work in the US.

[catmother]

139. my husand was talking about highly skilled technical jobs --

those that usually require an engineering degree. we're not talking $10.00 an hour here -- i'm talking about jobs that are paying more than $50.00 an hour. the customer gets billed approximately $225.00 and hour -- so they say i don't want to pay that much -- get someone from india whose getting paid maybe $20.00 an hour and the customer gets billed way less than they would for an american. it sucks -- i have to agree -- it's ruining the country but i would have to agree that our education in this country is not that great. i e-mail someone i know whose a teacher -- okay it's second grade -- but she misspells a lot of words. another one has a masters's degree -- she teaches music and art history (or art and music history -- not sure how it goes), but she cannot write -- her e-mails are always one paragraph -- missing punctuation. now they're teaching our kids.

my husband fears that his job will be outsourced -- so far he's been lucky -- he has skills that go back 38 years that are needed now -- if he didn't i have no doubt that he would no longer be working for this company.

everyone has different opinions -- and yes i believe it goes back to the corporations, but i don't have the answers on how to approach it on a large scale.

[Beelzebud]

113. Disgusting... No wonder the Unions are being busted.

Even democrats dont' give a shit anymore...

[Cleita]

117. So again we can blame the victim for what the corporations

are doing. There was a movement in California to unionize these laborers. I know they did it in Santa Monica in the hotel industry. If you want your wages to be protected, you need to invite these people to join with you so that business can't exploit them and in the long run, all Americans.

[AZBlue]

133. I tend to lean toward cutting back on illegal immigrants, but mine's a

different take on the situation:

First, we need to make it somewhat easier for people to immigrate to the US. It shouldn't be an automatic thing, but it should be easier and faster than it is now. Unless we're native Americans, we're all immigrants and that's what this country was built upon.

Secondly, we need to focus on the employers who hire illegal immigrants, not the immigrants themselves. And, make it illegal for a company to pay someone a lower rate for the same job just because of nationality, as in your AmEx example. I know it technically is, but corporations skate under the law by eliminating jobs and laying-off the American workers making the higher salary. Then within months they re-list the jobs (in places that would cater to Indian or other immigrants) under a different job title and with a slightly different job description and a very different salary. Maybe we need someone to sue and prove that the job is really the same, just packaged differently.

Thirdly, we need to address wages in this country and stop applying labels such as "jobs no American would want." That's an attitude that needs to be changed.

Fourth, I do think we need to pay more attention to our borders, north and south, but for safety. I'm not suggesting a wall - that's absurd, but right now you can drive a team of 20 tractor-trailers back and forth over the border, blaring loud music and decorated in neon lights, and no one would have a clue.

The lives of illegal immigrants here are awful and I'd like to see that changed for the exact reasons you and others have pointed out in these threads: they are hard workers, they appreciate what they do get and will work hard to get more. Why shouldn't they be rewarded for that kind of attitude?? It breaks my heart to see what they go through and how under-valued they are. Plus, if they were legal and got their just rewards, wouldn't that also wake up the lazy and apathetic youth??

[erinlough]

143. Catmother, from woman to woman

have you ever thought about it from this angle. My son, who is a good worker and respectful and skilled, moved to your city a year ago. He is going to a school in Phoenix and he was fortunate to transfer his job here in Michigan to the same company in Phoenix. His girlfriend also transfered with the another company to their headquarters in Scottsdale.

Sounded like a good deal, yes? No. They are both making substantially less in Phoenix because of the prevalence of cheap illegal help. When they questioned each company as to the change in pay they were informed that if they didn't like it the companies could get plenty of workers who would gladly take the six bucks an hour.

Now, we in America can take the road of "get what you can for the least you have to pay" or we can realize that we are cutting off the possibilities for our next generation while we "get ours".

It disgusts me that there is no talk of companies paying better wages when they move their company to other countries. This would protect our borders much better than a fence or a bunch of vigilanties. No need to cross a border when you can get the job in your own country.

Never the less I hear your argument all over the place. You aren't alone in your thinking and that, to me, is a sad fact of our generation.

[catmother]

144. when i moved here from new york city in 1989 i knew that i would

make less money, but i was shocked that for the same type of work with more responsibility and a 40 hour week (instead of 35 in new york) they wanted to pay me less than half of what i was making. it was a position that required skill -- not something a mexican could walk in and do. even the temp work was ridiculous -- i was getting $18.00 an hour in NY -- here i would have been lucky to get $7.00. my husband's company transferred him with new york pay -- he felt bad that he was making 2x as much as his co-workers. shortly after that my husband's supervisor was sent to work in new york. he got something like 110% pay increase and then transferred back here a few years later with the higher pay.

i don't know if the illegals are the problem for the low wages. it's a "right to work" state which means there are not many unions. i remember being in a walmart store and it was hot and really hot at the cashiers counters. i mentioned it and the cashier just shrugged. i said "you're not union are you? they would never get away with this if there were a union".

so even though my job in new york was not union my feeling is in places where unions are strong it brings up the salaries of every one else. and let me tell you, no employer in new york unless it's some sweat shop -- maybe in chinatown -- would get away with the things they get away with here.

i feel for your son and his girlfriend, but this is not the place to live if you want a good salary. even the teachers are paid a ridiculously low salary -- it's bad enough in the rest of the country, but it's even worse here.

i'm a pro union person. i come from a family of blue color union workers. all of my relatives in new york did well -- they worked hard -- got raises -- owned homes -- but i don't even think that's the case in new york now. unfortunately the american dream is no longer alive. i not only feel for your son but for all these young people starting out.

i am very fortunate that my husband has the job he has. we feel truly "blessed" but i think you've seen in my earlier posts that he too, fears his job will be outsourced.


on edit: i don't know why but i have a certain empathy for mexicans. i've been to several latin countries and find latin people to be warm, friendly, and hard working. i'm also very comfortable with them and the reason might be that i was exposed to puerto rican people at a young age. my parents bought a house on long island when i was 12. there was a state hospital nearby that employed a large number of puerto ricans. i met them in catholic elementary school, later in public high school, was friends with some of them and yet many people looked down on them and i couldn't understand why. actually my first love at age 14 was a puerto rican. i'm sure this last edit is irrelevant -- i just thought i throw it in so maybe you'll see me as a different person.

on edit: if your son plans on staying here -- i don't know what he's studying -- my advice would be something in health care -- i've heard that's a little better or dental assistant -- i can't be sure but i've heard that the money is better in those fields.