I knew it! Study shows public schools perform better than private schools.

[milkyway]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/28/education/28tests.html?_r=1

Public-School Students Score Well in Math in Large-Scale Government Study

WASHINGTON, Jan. 27 — A large-scale government-financed study has concluded that when it comes to math, students in regular public schools do as well as or significantly better than comparable students in private schools.

<snip>

Though private school students have long scored higher on the national assessment, commonly referred to as "the nation's report card," the new study used advanced statistical techniques to adjust for the effects of income, school and home circumstances. The researchers said they compared math scores, not reading ones, because math was considered a clearer measure of a school's overall effectiveness.

The study found that while the raw scores of fourth graders in Roman Catholic schools, for example, were 14.3 points higher than those in public schools, when adjustments were made for student backgrounds, those in Catholic schools scored 3.4 points lower than those in public schools. A spokeswoman for the National Catholic Education Association did not respond to requests for comment.

<snip>

The current study found that self-described conservative Christian schools, the fastest-growing sector of private schools, fared poorest, with their students falling as much as one year behind their counterparts in public schools, once socioeconomic factors like income, ethnicity and access to books and computers at home were considered.

<more>
__________

This has certainly been my experience. I have two teenage sons that have always gone to public schools on the east side of Manhattan. Although the reputation of large urban public school systems has been generally that the schools are lousy, I have always thought that every school my kids have attended is very good. We are fortunate to live in Manhattan where the public schools are regarded as generally better than the other boroughs, but I've always wondered if it's actually true that the other schools are weak or if it's just a reflection of the socioeconomic background of the student body.

In our neighborhood there are a lot of middle-class people that send their kids to Catholic school or other more expensive private schools. Their has always been a usually unspoken assumption by the private school parents that their kids are going to superior schools. My kids have said this is the attitude of the private school kids also, sometimes insulting the public school kids for their seemingly lower status.

I've been involved with youth sports for years, and have come to know a lot of the kids in our neighborhood. The public school kids tend to be more compassionate and accepting of others. While certainly not true for every kid, I have found that as a group the Catholic school kids are much more selfish and uncaring. It's usually pretty easy to tell if a kid is a private school kid or not. I don't know if this is because of the parents that are inclined to send their kids to Catholic schools, or because of the school itself. I sometimes feel like phoning the Catholic school and telling them that whatever they're doing, it's not working.

I know several parents who have transferred their kids out of the Catholic school and into public school. They are shocked to find out how much better an education their kids are now getting. One mom spoke to me about her sixth-grader after he had been in public school for two months. She said she could not believe what a changed kid he was, that he would now speak intelligently at home about a lot of different topics that he never mentioned before. She felt like she had a new kid.

I asked her also if she knew if any of the Catholic school's students had been accepted to Stuyvesant High School (the very demanding public high school in which 27,000 kids test for, including a lot of private school students, and about 700 get in). The woman burst out laughing, saying that a lot of them take the test every year, but none of them ever get accepted. I then told her that 42 eighth-graders from my son's middle school were accepted at Stuyvesant last year.

I've always known my kids are better off going to the public schools. It's good to have this extensive study verify that they are receiving a superior education.

[wakeme2008]

1. I am from Florida and Jebbie made sure

I could not find this out for voucher schools ARE NOT tested like public schools :grr:

[The Backlash Cometh]

6. You got that right.

They also don't have as broad a curriculm to chose from and they don't have the special facilities to take care of special needs kids.

It's a disgrace. That governor is all about finances, and not a lick of understanding when it comes to educating a generation that will be struggling to remain a supernation because of his, his brother's and father's excesses.

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. That is wrong

and it frankly pisses me off.

[wakeme2008]

30. Here is

only one example.

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/04/15/State/Parties_differ_over_v.shtml

Yes private schools are not required to take the same tests as public schools even if they accept voucher students.

google is your friend.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. I didn't mean you were wrong

I'm sorry. I meant it is WRONG that voucher schools are not tested. Because they should be. Sorry for the misunderstanding; I wasn't trying to argue with you.

[wakeme2008]

33. No problem

:pals:

[milkyway]

62. The ex-Catholic school mom I spoke with here in NY tried to find out

the statistics of how the Catholic school students perform on tests, but was told by the school they don't give out that information. They also would not let her know how many students were accepted at Stuyvesant or other top high schools.

Public schools, of course, have to accept every kid and make all their statistics available to the public.

[Warpy]

2. Math was what I was behind in when I made my escape

from Catholic school. Thank goodness I made my escape early, fifth grade. There were only so many ways to peddle the line of religious bullshit in math, so it got short shrift.

My mother remarked about the change in me when I started public school, too, that I was suddenly a more interesting kid to talk to.

I'm not surprised that public schools do a better job. The main thing wrong with them is that most of them are too big, too centralized. Some kids do get lost and there is a critical mass of bullies to make other kids miserable. Smaller schools (or just breaking up the megaschools into smaller cohorts) plus taking bullying seriously from kindergarten on would solve those problems.

Public schools are really the best we have if we're not wealthy enough to afford fancy prep schools in New England. They've been doing this stuff for a very long time and the only agenda is education, not proselytizing, so they do a very good job at it.

[malaise]

4. My sister moved her boys to private school

when they reached middle school. They went to this new private catholic school. The older one thrived and is now at university. The younger one hated it and convinced his dad that he was much happier at public school and they moved him back to public after a year. He is much happier and is doing well. He is in his final year now, will head to college in the fall and thankfully, is way less conservative than his brother.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. I have two kids; both went to public schools in elementary grades

For high school, our oldest thrived in a small Catholic high school. He would have dropped out for sure in a large impersonal public high school. He also got a great education. His younger brother begged us to let him stay with his friends in public school. He also thrived.

You have to do what is best for your kids and ignore the politics. The big picture needs to be what is best for each child. But we also have to support our public schools since many families do not have the financial means to put their kids in private schools. Public schools are the lifeblood of our commmunities. We must not let them disintegrate due to lack of funding.

[FlaGranny]

15. Two sides to every story.

:-) My husband was educated in a Catholic school through 8th grade. He did very well, with A's, B's, and a C or two. Then, his parents sent him to public high school because they could not afford the Catholic one. All hell broke loose. He no longer had the threat of the ruler and he turned into a monster. He finally graduated high school with the help of summer school and home economics and art classes and with barely passing grades. He did well as long as he was "forced" to. When the pressure was off, he just wanted to have a good time.

[free4now]

3. What we need is a national standard

We need all the children in each grade learning the same curriculum.
I moved from NYC to NJ My Sophomore year in HS. In NJ they tried to put me in the highest science class they had I had already used the book they tried to give me in 7th grade in NY.

The school thought I was lying. Until I told them to ask me anything from that book, I had a great teacher and I really loved science I knew that book like the back of my hand.

I was never challenged again until I graduated it was like a review and this was a highly regarded public school in NJ.

They need to ALL be on the same page for the kids sake.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. That is a huge debate in education right now

And FYI, there ARE national standards. But they are not mandatory. And as an educator, I oppose them now because of the idiocy of the current administration and who they have appointed to lead the US Dept of Ed. dubya's first selection was a supt from Texas who is in trouble for falsifying attendance records in his district. He became Sec of Ed and went on to call teachers terrorists. Remember that? You want HIM to be in charge of national standards? Not me.

His replacement is a woman who is following his agenda and is just another bushbot.

I will once again advocate national standards when these fruitcakes are no longer running our federal govt.

[LWolf]

179. I disagree.

I think we should have a very few, very broad, national benchmarks. I strongly disagree with the idea or the implementation of any national curriculum that decides what each person learns at each grade, for several reasons:

1. The creation of such national standards would be a political process, controlled by political pressures and influences. We just don't need a curriculum written to benefit one group's donors or philosophy.

2. The very structure of such a curriculum is problematic. People don't all learn at the same pace. Assuming that there is one standard amount of information or skill that every child can learn each year will always leave some students behind, and some waiting around impatiently for something new to do. This simply standardizes one of our shortcomings.

3. The standardization of curriculum inevitably supports the "one-size-fits-all" mentality and leads to further standardization, including the standardization of instruction. The standardization of instruction leaves more students further behind or wasting time. Everyone does not learn the same way, all good teachers don't teach the same way, and the schools and students that are thriving, vibrant places of learning are so because they honor the strengths and needs of the individuals in that place, not because of any particular program or method.

Frankly, after 23 years spent in public education, I don't trust a single politician anywhere to legislate curriculum or policy that will benefit my students or my practice. A few broad benchmarks? Yes. At this point in time, we can't even agree on where we are going. Some of us want to prepare every individual student to be able to successfully reach their potential, whatever direction they choose to take. Our current system, with it's focus on meeting "standards," wants all students to either be prepared to take on life-long debt to pursue higher education, or to drop out and become a large pool of cheap labor and cannon fodder. There's little in between.

What we need is to shift the national consciousness away from anti-intellectualism. We need learning to be universally valued by all of our cultures.What we need is to provide equal opportunity to all to learn, preschool through college and trade school.

[proud2BlibKansan]

182. If we are going to have nationally certified teachers

and laws like NCLB, then we need some type of national standards. I agree they should be broad. And I am not at all in favor of a national curriculum.

[LWolf]

190. This is a sticky point for me.

Originally, I thought national teacher certification would be a good thing. I was going to go through the process. I hesitated because it was costly, and there were conversations going on about some districts/states helping teachers meet the costs. My district was very encouraging, and really liked the idea of me putting out all that money and time. I began to think that it would be better to include national certification right along with state certification, so that new teachers would automatically be both. National certification should automatically mean certification in any of the 50 states, without more hoops to jump through from state to state.

Then I thought, "in that case, shouldn't they be 'grandfathering' teachers who've already achieved certification in a state, rather than making each certification separate?" I still think this.

Then, of course, NCLB kicked in, and I decided that I didn't want national certification, period. I didn't want some selected rw yahoo in the wh, and his corrupt secretary of education, and a bunch of politicians in washington far removed from understanding pedagogy, but closely linked with education related corporations, to decide what a good teacher should be able to do.

Which is why I also don't want them setting national standards. Frankly, I don't think they are qualified.

If real educators, people with abundant and recent time in the classroom, who were not political appointees, were the ones to set some broad, developmentally appropriate standards, with no specific national measurement or "high stakes" involved, I'd probably agree. I'm just skeptical that this is the way it would play out.

[proud2BlibKansan]

197. Oh that is TOO funny

I did the same thing! I started the process and even went out and bought a fancy video camera so I could videotape my lessons.

Then my district started dragging its feet about whether or not they would pay for it. Initially, they had encouraged me to do this and said they would pay for it. But when it came time to write the check, they wanted me to pay up front and said they would reimburse me when I was nationally certified. Sure, like I just happen to have a spare $2500 laying around I don't need for a year or so?

The state also decided against a $3000 yearly bonus for nationally certified teachers. (Believe it or not, one of the teachers unions here lobbied hard against this bonus.)

All that caused me to examine just how important and significant national certification really was to me. I was hoping it would really certify me in any state, and discovered it wouldn't. I still would have to take the Praxis to be certified in Kansas, where I live. (I teach in MO.) So I decided it wasn't important enough to spend $2500 that I might not ever get back.

To this day, my district of around 3,000 teachers has NONE that are nationally certified.

[Boojatta]

5. Are private religious schools TRYING to hire good math teachers?

You quoted references to Roman Catholic schools and "self-described conservative Christian schools", but surely the words "private school" and "private religious school" don't mean the same thing.

What does the study claim about the comparison between public schools and private nonreligious schools?

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. I understand your point but technically they are the same thing

If we ever do get vouchers, they will work in all kinds of private schools.

About the Math teachers - private schools generally pay so poorly that good Math teachers don't work there. They can make double the salary in a public school.

[boston bean]

26. pay does not a good math teacher make! nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. Well as soon as we teachers get discounts on mortgages and groceries

pay won't matter. Until then, as long as we pay teachers as poorly as we do, many of our best and brightest, especially in Math, will not choose teaching as a career.

[rucky]

19. Pay and benefits are not competitive with public schools

I'm a teacher seeking work right now. Trust me, everybody wants a contract with public schools. All we have here are private religious schools. Prep schools score better (and pay comparably to Public schools), but they are few and far between.

not like public school teachers are rich - $35K average, but they (still) get benefits and pension. So who in their right mind would take teaching job that pays 24K & no benefits?

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. I doubled my salary

when I moved from a Catholic school to a public school.

[mirandapriestly]

171. Yes, catholic schools and independent schools

are totally different. I don't really think of catholic schools when I hear the term "private schools"

[Dorian Gray]

7. I don't understand...

"The study found that while the raw scores of fourth graders in Roman Catholic schools, for example, were 14.3 points higher than those in public schools, when adjustments were made for student backgrounds, those in Catholic schools scored 3.4 points lower than those in public schools. A spokeswoman for the National Catholic Education Association did not respond to requests for comment." --- That's a quote directly from the article above.




What were those adjustments? Doesn't that mean that this whole study is false? Or am I missing something?

[ret5hd]

8. in essence (and i'm NOT vouching for the methodology of this study)...

what i believe they were attempting to eliminate was the effects of income, etc from the "ranking" of the schools. So, for instance, if the kids that were in the private schools had instead gone to public schools, they would have scored even higher than they did.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. You need to move beyond a personal level and look at the big picture

Many many studies over many many years prove that the #1 determinant of achevement is socioeconomic status. Kids from wealthy families perform better in school (and in life in general) than kids from poor families. So how fair is it to compare their achievement without adjusting scores?

That 55 is a completely different score in an urban public school where >90% of the students live at or below the poverty level.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. No one here is shrugging and saying 'oh well'

But you are new here so maybe you don't realize that.

We are asking for FAIRNESS. It is not fair to compare kids across socioeconomic groups.

And we damn well better worry about the big picture. I, for one, can focus on both that and my own kids. I think others can as well. :eyes:

[hack89]

140. What is the purpose of your fairness?

So we adjust the scores - what purpose that achieve? I will hire based on demonstrated ability, not adjusted scores so how does this make things better for the student?

[proud2BlibKansan]

143. Because the playing field is not even and never will be

What is unfair is comparing kids in the first place. A kindergartener from a poor and uneducated family who has never been read to is going to have a much harder time learning to read than one who comes from a well to do family that reads to him daily. The latter kid most likely already has a college fund in his name by the time he starts school while the first kid's parents are struggling to pay rent and keep the electricity turned on.

The playing field is not level from birth - even pre-birth. So how fair is it to compare these kids' test scores? I can save you a lot of trouble and tell you straight up that the kid from the well to do family is going to perform better. So why don't we move away from testing and comparing to actually providing both kids what they need? But if the PTB insist on testing and comparing, then I will advocate for the poor kids and insist that scores be adjusted.

That is the purpose of the fairness.

[countingbluecars]

153. Excellent post! n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

154. Gracias

[proud2BlibKansan]

159. I don't know why I didn't think of this before.

But my own personal experience is the best support I can give to this 'fair' argument.

I began teaching 26 years ago in an urban Catholic school. To this day, it is the best school I ever worked in. The kids were all African American and for lack of a better term - 'poor'. We were a Title I eligible school, so 80% were living at or below the poverty level. The parental support was awesome. But the parents really struggled to pay tuition and keep food on the table. We worked our tails to the bone at that school and our kids were considered successful if they scored at or above the 50th percentile on the ITBS. We had lots and lots of professional development that focused on raising the achievement level of poor minority kids. I have never worked harder and after two years there, I decided I wasn't cut out to be a teacher in an urban area and so I found a job at a suburban Catholic school.

I was at the suburban school for 3 years. It was in a middle class area, so the families weren't wealthy, but definitely were higher on the SES scale than in my previous school. This was the easiest teaching job I ever had. It was an open concept school, so all grades 1 thru 4 were in one big open room. Our 'walls' were bookcases. Because we had several hundred kids in this one big area, we had to stay quiet. We all taught everything at the same time. All of the teaching was direct instruction, no cooperative learning and no hands on activities, as they were too noisy. One day I brought in popsicle sticks to teach place value and the teacher next door to me complained to the principal that my classroom was too noisy. I had a para who sat in the back of my 'room' and graded all the papers and handed them to me in a neat pile at the end of every day. The kids just sat and did worksheets all day long. I never once participated in any professional development in the 3 years I was there.

This suburban school also took the ITBS and it was rare if a kid there scored below the 90th percentile in any subject. One year I had a little boy who scored at the 60th in Reading and my principal advised me to consider retaining him.

So, the school that never even mentioned the ITBS to the kids until the day before we started the test (to make sure they weren't absent), the school that never offered even an hour of professional development to me, the school where the kids really weren't taught, but babysat while they did worksheets all day long - that school outscored (by a mile) the school where we lived and breathed that test and raising those scores was priority #1.

If that doesn't prove the importance of SES and its impact on achievement, I don't know what would.

I left that suburban school and took a job in the public school system where I am now. I was bored but also my own child was in kindergarten and I couldn't afford the tuition at the school where I worked on the salary they paid me. That just seemed really wrong at the time - still does. I doubled my salary. I went from making $10K a year to making $20K. I thought I was rich. LOL

[fishwax]

39. Providing adjusted scores IS straight talk and honesty

Claiming that the unadjusted numbers are an accurate way of comparing school performance is actually the dishonest approach, since the discrepancy in scores may be the result of factors other than the quality of education. For instance, students from higher socioeconomic backgrounds generally do better on the test. So if one school has a much higher percentage of these students, their test scores should be higher.

BTW, welcome to DU :hi:

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. They are probably referring to ethnic and socioeconomic groups

Adjustments are made to compare African American kids in private schools to African American kids in public schools, etc.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. It's not the same thing at all and I can't believe you are that obtuse

Nice strawman argument, BTW. :hi:

[Sparkly]

41. You're missing the point.

The point is about schools' performance. To your analogy, your low account balance isn't due to your bank using bad accounting methods compared with other banks, for example -- it's that you have less money in relation to the bills you struggle to pay.

I've always considered it unfair to compare schools based on grades alone, without considering the needs and circumstances of the students who attend them, and the communities overall.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sparkly]

59. No -- and you're still missing the point.

Again, this is about the schools' performance -- and not blaming schools and teachers as "bad" if their students don't perform as well on tests as those in more affluent communities. It simply recognizes that there are factors at work beyond the schools themselves.

As for spending amounts -- which is a different topic -- if the amount to maintain particular services or programs needs to increase to maintain it, especially due to inflation, it IS a cut to the program if the amount doesn't adjust upward with everything else.

Others may be unable to "see to" their child's education as you can, for a host of reasons; still others may do all they can but can't remove them from the influences of an impoverished, crime-ridden community or supply computers and other resources, for example.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sparkly]

71. "As long as we treat them like objects..."

Exactly. They are not widgets being churned out of factories. There's much more affecting test scores than just the schools and teachers -- so the argument that schools in impoverished communities are defective, turning out an inferior "product," is wrong.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sparkly]

86. It's wrongly centered if it blames schools and teachers

ignoring all other factors.

Parental effort may be one factor -- but not all parents are in your situation. Economic conditions, health issues, educational and emotional needs, etc., -- especially in impoverished community -- are all factors, as well.

I believe public schools are doing the best they can, and I think that's what this study is saying.

[fishwax]

72. what if we focus on other people's kids

i'm sorry, but i care about them, too. And I want all of them to have access to the best education possible.

It not only benefits them, but society as a whole.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

99. Time to explain a few things

You know WHY that private school in Atlanta has a lower per pupil cost? Let's list the services they DON'T have to pay for that the public schools do:
1. transportation (the largest expense in most school districts after salaries)
2. special education
3. govt mandates
4. teacher salaries - it has been stated already all through this thread that teachers in private schools make far less than those in public schools. As I said in another post, I DOUBLED my salary when I went from teaching in a private school to a public one.

My father was an administrator in a private school. When he retired, he was earning $35k a year. His peers in the local public school system were then averaging $80k+. When I graduated from college, my father told me to not repeat his mistake; if I wanted to live comfortably, work in a public school system. And that was over 25 years ago. Some things don't change.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

108. So just because we make twice what private school teachers make,

you think we earn enough? LOL :rofl:

Should we next force private schools to pay for transportation?

You are all over the map here. :eyes:

[fishwax]

116. there you go comparing apples to oranges again

I agree, to a large degree, with your first paragraph. But it is a bit of a red herring in discussions of public education policy, because it isn't the type of thing that public policy can directly solve. There are other avenues that, while not as comprehensive as a solution, can be more efficiently addressed with policy, but I do think that those attitudes you speak of would improve with a greater general commitment to public education.

As for the comparison:

First, I assume the 9000 figure is for tuition, right? Tuition, of course, is 0 for public schools, and for private schools tuition does not necessarily equal cost-per-child.

Second, of course the Walker school churns out a bumper crop of freshmen at top schools each year--they are a suburban private school with an application process--they don't accept anyone who won't turn out to be college material.

Here's another shocker: Andover Prep School produces more ivy league students than your average high school in, say, inner city Houston.

[fishwax]

68. that has nothing to do with what's being discussed here

Statistical adjustments are made all the time, for the very basic reason that raw data doesn't always retain its meaning across contexts. An example: adjustments for inflation when comparing prices across time periods. As the old saying goes: figures lie and liars figure.

[Generic Other]

85. IN the real world you r achievement is measured from where you start

G. W. Bush did not struggle to get to the top like Michael Moore. Bush was placed near the top rung, given everything he needed to succeed (or at least give the appearance of succeeding). Moore was at the bottom with others kicking him in the face every step of the way. Which guy do I think has a higher level of achievement? The fat guy? Or the Chimp?

[proud2BlibKansan]

89. One of my student's parents also works a 12 hour day 6-7 days a week

earning minimum wage. She still needs help paying her heating bills. She really wants to go to college but can't find the time.

Too bad that working hard and working long hours isn't enough for her to achieve that American dream.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

100. You are actually comparing raising a pet to raising kids?

And by your logic, no one who is poor should breed.

Nice position there. Fits well on this PROGRESSIVE discussion board. :sarcasm:


On edit - didn't The Nazis try to control who had kids and who could not have them?

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

115. You are the one not arguing facts

You are using your own sense of what's right in your world as a measure for judging others. Applying YOUR personal standards and assuming everyone should abide by them is pretty far removed from using facts to argue. I don't believe that's a personal attack, but hey, if that defense works for you, then go for it. Hopefully you are learning, as a newbie, that libertarian arguments are not well received here on DU.

Check your history books. The Nazis DID indeed try to control who was reproducing in their society and who was not. You are the one who brought that subject up. If you don't want your talking points compared to Nazis, then don't bring up talking points that reflect a Nazi mentality.

[fishwax]

127. sometimes people with kids lose their jobs

:shrug:

And aside from that (and aside from the other implications of your "minimum wage" comment), why should the responsibility (or lack thereof) of parents lessen our commitment to their children? Lots of parents are irresponsible. Making sure their children get the best education possible still provides a net benefit for society. Sheesh.

[Telly Savalas]

139. Well that wouldn't happen if they were more RESPONSIBLE!!!

And children are responsible for the actions of their parents too. If a parent doesn't express enough of an interest in the child's education, it's the child's fault, and hence the child must suffer the consequences.

It's really shameful how you liberal hippie tree-huggers spurn the American ideal of Social Darwinism.

[proud2BlibKansan]

146. LOL well said, my friend, well said

This liberal hippie tree-hugger couldn't agree more. LOL

[proud2BlibKansan]

64. The only way that bank argument would work is if

the dollar is worth less in poorer communities across the country. Last time I checked, it was not.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

76. So now you are saying that the dollar in the inner city is worth less?

Funny, I thought the value of the dollar was the same all across the country.

[fishwax]

93. the bank argument is still invalid. Here's a bank analogy that actually

applies to the situation. An adjustment to your personal checking account simply isn't relevant to the topic of statistical comparison.

But since we're on the subject of banks, imagine an investment banker (we'll call him Winston Private) who last year increased the value of his client's assets by a total of 1 million dollars. The guy at the bank across the street (Joe Public) only increased the value of his client's assets by 500,000. People look at these figures and say: Private is much more successful than Public. Public should be fired. We should stop funding Public. He is failing.

Then somebody does a little research. They find out that Winston Private had ten clients last year. Joe Public had 500 clients . Winston Private's supporters in congress shout: see! Private's client's got an average yield of one hundred thousand dollars. Private's clients averaged a meager one grand! Those are numbers! That's the real world! Why would anybody want to put their money in Public's trust?

But wait, the researcher says, as he furiously punches the keys on his calculater to make a *statistical adjustment*. As it turns out, Private's clients were very wealthy, and he had a total of twenty million dollars at his disposal. Joe Public's clients, on the other hand, come from a broad range of socio-economic classes, and provided a total of five million dollars for investment.

Naturally, Winston Public's supporters start to grumble about "statistical adjustments" and "taking responsibility." But which banker would you trust to manage your kid's college fund?

[Sparkly]

109. Good analogy!!

:thumbsup:

[proud2BlibKansan]

118. Great analogy

Hopefully it is not falling on deaf ears.

[Yupster]

82. It is an odd conclusion

Kids at private schools score 14 points per kids higher, therefore public schools are better after adjustments.

Gotcha.

[proud2BlibKansan]

121. Yeah don't read all the explanations posted here

Those adjustments are a fact of life. But just ignore that.

It is infinitely more fair to compare a kid living in poverty who has never been read to at home to one living in wealth who was read to in the womb. :sarcasm:

Ever hear of stacking the deck?

[On the Road]

9. I Guess This is the Reason:

"...self-described conservative Christian schools, the fastest-growing sector of private schools, fared poorest, with their students falling as much as one year behind their counterparts in public schools...."

I would take exception ONLY to the broad-brush categorization of private schools. My daughter went to Montessori schools all through elementary, and math is what they do best -- not only do the students understand the math, they often love it. She's fifteen now, and wants to major in engineering.

Having said that, most private schools have an authority-based rather than self-discovery model of teaching, and that does not lead to real learning IMO.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. We have Montessori schools in our public schools here

so not all of them are private schools.

[loudsue]

57. Montessori schools ROCK!!

I soooo wish my parents had sent me to a Montessori school. Some people learn much better under that system.

:kick:

[proud2BlibKansan]

79. Yes they do

I just wish they weren't so darned expensive.

[loudsue]

81. Wouldn't it be wonderful if half the public schools in America were

Montessori schools? Where parents could choose between the two types for their kids?

In my dream America, that would be so.

:kick:

[proud2BlibKansan]

83. Yes that would be awesome

I am really proud of the fact that my district has Montessori schools.

Maria Montessori is one of my heroes.

[AngryAmish]

150. My friend has a kid in Montessori

The tuition is only $6200-6500 a year per kid.

[proud2BlibKansan]

162. "Only"??? LOL

That is actually pretty high.

[AngryAmish]

166. Another friend of mine is paying over $13k for second grade

Latin School is even more expensive.

[proud2BlibKansan]

167. The highest priced private schools here

are around $9K or $10K a year.

[Seagull]

136. Conservative Christian schools are the worst

I went to a private Christian school for grades 6-8 in Pensacola, FL. My family moved alot when I was a kid
and had a lot of time fitting in. I was a short skinny kid with glasses, severe asthma, and Tourette's. Believe me, attending new schools every 2 to 3 year was traumatic.

Anyway, we moved to FL from New York (Albany)and the difference in public schools was shocking. The school in Fl was 20 plus years old, in disrepair and some of the teachers were absolutely horrible. I was yelled at and sent to the Principal's office several times for some of my vocal tics. My parents looked at private schools in the area and chose the Christian school over a more liberal private school that was my choice.

The teachers at the Christian school were the most rigid unthinking people imaginable. They had a set curriculum
that they taught that was heavy on memorization and recitation. For most of them, original thought was a foreign concept. Teacher turnover was high due to the low salaries. Damn, I hated those teachers. They didn't like me because I wasn't one of the kids who walked up to confess their salvation during the mandatory church services.

Later after my parents were divorced, I transferred back to a public high school. While some teachers were mediocre, I had some outstanding compassionate teachers, and was exposed to students (and teachers) of other races. No blacks at the Christian school. The good teachers at my public school taught me to think and analyze, not just to parrot back bible verses.

One of my history teachers helped me to get a partial scholarship. I don't think the teachers or admins at the Christian school would have helped me one iota, since I had heretical thoughts.

[proud2BlibKansan]

147. Have you seen the movie 'SAVED"?

I just watched it last night. It is about a Christian high school. Check it out.

[fishwax]

170. that is a great movie

:thumbsup:

[LWolf]

194. In order to have a self-discovery model in public ed,

we need some things that society and/or politicians have not been willing to provide.

We need small schools, and very small class sizes. All that self discovery needs to be planned/prepared for, structured, and facilitated, and that takes more one-on-one time than public ed can pay for. The "factory" model exists because it is cheaper, not because it is better.

We need a focus on individualization, rather than standardization, of curriculum. The opposite of the current obsession.

Many public schools and classrooms have tried to implement some "modified" self-discovery in the current structure. It meets with varying levels of success, depending on the training, support, and "buy-in" available.

I've taught in "classroom reduction" sized classes of 20, and "full-sized" classes of 30 - 40, K-8th grade. Twenty students have more space and more time and individual attention from me than 30+ do; research tells us that 15 students per class is the crucial "max" that will make the biggest difference. Imagine trying to double the number of teachers, classrooms, and school buildings out there across the nation right now; daunting, and that wouldn't address the "small school" part. We'd have to triple or quadruple the number of school buildings out there to put small schools and small class-size in every public school.

If we started by capping the number of students in any elementary to 500, any middle school to 750, and any high school to 1,000, and capping class size at 30, with a reduction of one student per class for the next 15 years, and built schools like crazy and trained prospective teachers in hordes, we could have an infrastructure in place. Then we'd just have to be willing to allow flexible curriculum.

I'm willing. I would have loved to have taught in such a system. Do you think I'll see it before retirement?

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. Well it's about time!

Thank you so much for posting this! :yourock:

My school was in a partnership with schools in Manhattan. I spent time in two different public schools there and was VERY impressed. One was in Chelsea, I don't remember where the other one was. You are right, though, there are many many excellent public schools. It's about time we change this conversation to the excellence of public schools and stop wringing our hands over problems that don't exist - problems that are created to serve the right wing agenda of destroying public education.

THANK YOU!!!!

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. You bet that RW agenda is destroying public education!!

I am not talking about teachers' personal political agendas or even the agenda of the schools. It is the politicians and their agenda to downgrade public education that I am referring to. They need to build public support for vouchers and charter schools. What better way to do this than to paint our public schools as failing institutions?

This started during Reagan's administration. He appointed commissions to find fault with public education. They were NOT directed to fairly assess our public schools or to find their strengths. Their task was to find what is WRONG. Their report was titled "A Nation At Risk". That started the ball rolling and the end result of that commission was No Child Left Behind.

NCLB is destroying public education and is especially devastating to schools serving kids from low income families. Remember that sick catch phrase: "The soft bigotry of low expectations"? Well there are no low expectations. That is a great big lie.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. You have literally no control over the agenda of the public schools

in your community. I work in a public school system and I have no control over it. We also have no control over the political process that determines curriculum and funding of our public schools. The only things I can control are what happens in my own classroom (but to a limited degree; I can't choose the curriculum) and where my own kids attend school. I can't decide WHAT they are taught.

I live in Kansas. Trust me, I see first hand every day what misguided fundies are doing to destroy public education in this state. It ain't pretty.

You are very right about schools being merely resources. But if those resources are limited or inadequately funded or supervised by wingnuts like our state board here in Kansas, what are you able to do about it? If you think you can really change things for the better, then move to Kansas. We could use your help here.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. So, like I said, I want to move to Beverly Hills

You feel we all have this choice. That is mine.

I can't wait to go back to school on Monday and tell all the working poor families of my students that they can CHOOSE to live wherever they want. I may even borrow that eloquent expression: Vote With Your Feet!!

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

103. You are arguing with yourself now

You are the one who said we can choose where we live. :eyes:

[fishwax]

46. schools are a resource, yes, and a resource that the right has been trying

to undermine and destroy for years.

I admire your sense of responsibility for you child's education. But does the fact that educating your child is your responsibility somehow mean we shouldn't strive to provide the best public education possible?

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fishwax]

52. so just to clarify, you think we shouldn't bother w/ public education? n/t

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sparkly]

61. The point is that it's not entirely the schools' fault

The methodologies may be quite efficient, in fact; the failings are not always on the part of schools or teachers.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sparkly]

80. Not necessarily

A single mother who works two jobs, or has a healthcare crisis or drug addiction; a child who has unmet emotional or educational needs; a household where there's not enough money for computers and other resources; a community infested with violent crime... These can all undermine a child's achievement in school, and the point is that it is NOT the fault of the school or its teachers, nor is it always about apathy.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sparkly]

107. Whose "fault" is that? It's NOT the kids' fault!!

And that's the point. When you find a way to make every parent perfect, let us know.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[countingbluecars]

126. To me, your arguments on this thread

indicate that you are concerned only with your own kid-screw the rest of society.

[proud2BlibKansan]

148. And we in education have certainly NEVER heard

that line of thinking before - no way!! LOL

One of the wisest things a mentor told me when I first started teaching is beware of the parents who think their child is the only one you teach, but treat all parents as if their child IS the only one you teach.

[fishwax]

70. who is accepting a failing product?

[fishwax]

44. there is nothing wrong with an agenda of excellence

but that's not the right-wing agenda. If the right-wing were interested in excellence in public schools, they would come up with legitimate strategies instead of feel-good testing requirements, and they would fund their initiatives rather than creating elaborate pyramid schemes like NCLB.

Their agenda is, and has been for a long time, been designed to undermine the public school system. It is only in recent years that they have made a secret of this--in the 80s, movement republicans (like bush's-buddy jack abramoff) were openly calling for the abolition of the Department of Education.

When someone is trying to undermine the quality of education in our country, they should be called on it, don't you think?

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fishwax]

131. but the system isn't failing

would we be sending our kids to a school system that doesn't deliver thge desired result? Do you keep taking your car to be fixed to a repair shop that doesn't fix the problem? And then blame the NTSB for not fixing the problem? An oversimplification to be sure, but the net result is the same

As the study that started this thread indicates, the repair shop in question (public schools) is more effective than alternatives (private schools).

and framing the discussion and the problem,within a political context (right wing/left wing/chicken wing) demonstrates that the real issue isn't the children and their education, but more stinkin' politics...

This is hopelessly naive. The right wing has an agenda for public schools. They'd like to see them phased out in favor of schools that (a) offer religious indoctrination and/or (b) turn a profit for the private sector. We ignore that agenda at our peril as a society.

Please tell me how framing this issue outside a political context--and thus yielding the entire political context of the public school system to those who wish to destroy it--serves the interests of the average American child or are society as a whole.

[milkyway]

96. Probably the most highly regarded public school in Chelsea is named Lab.

The Lab School for Collaborative Studies. It's grades 6-12. Is this the school you were thinking of? My kids haven't gone there, but we considered it for high school.

[proud2BlibKansan]

149. No they were both elementary schools

with numbers as names.

[Ladyhawk]

21. I went to private school most of my life.

There were pros and cons.

Pros: I did get a good education in math, English and music. In my fundamentalist Christian school we often started classes by singing songs. My social studies teacher in high school (who is religiously insane) began every class with music. The "coolest" kids were the ones in choir and small ensembles. Of course, the athletic kids were considered "cool" too, but some of the singers were popular, too. I tried really hard to develop my voice and I think I was pretty good by high school, but the music teacher didn't like me, so she chose less talented people to be in the small ensembles. That was NOT fun.

Cons: The science books were mostly geared toward disproving evolution. When I look back on the arguments given, most were pretty flimsy, but I didn't know. I was being raised in a bubble. I had little access to information that wasn't filtered by school, the family or church. This set me up for a great fall. After I left the bubble, the whole thing started falling apart. Discovering you've lived your whole life based on a lie is no small thing.

Also, abuse flourishes in fundamentalist schools. There was physical, emotional, sexual and spiritual abuse. All but the sexual abuse was condoned by the school. The high school never had more than about 80 students total and I'd bet that many of these ended up with severe problems. One kid killed himself because a teacher/preacher had molested him. A kid in my class ended up in prison for soliciting murder. Many of the boys turned into real pricks and remain pricks to this day. Me? Being immersed in that crazy-ass world view took a huge toll. I'm still trying to recover. I often wonder if my life would have been better had I not gone to fundy school.

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. I went all through private school too

Catholic school for elementary and an independent (non-religious) high school. And I got an excellent education. I now teach in a public school. One of my kids went to a public high school, the other to a Catholic high school. So I have seen the best of both worlds. There is good and bad.

The one disadvantage for me personally was social. I was a scholarship kid in a high school with wealthy kids. I had literally nothing in common with my classmates and had few friends. It was hard but my parents told me to focus on the education I was getting. Once I got to college, I was back with a peer group I could relate to and settled in nicely.

If not for the excellent education, I may have been miserable and unhappy. I now teach in an urban school so I have truly been full circle, in terms of the socio-economic groups I have spent my days with. I have learned to get along with just about anyone. So in the long run, it has been a huge advantage for me personally.

[milkyway]

73. Interesting that you say the fundie school tried to disprove evolution.

I thought the Intelligent Design crowd only wanted a disclaimer stating that evolution was only a theory. But you make it sound as if disproving evolution was one of the main priorities of science class. If you don't mind me asking, how long ago was this?

I'm curious about what actually goes on in these types of schools. The poster bricktop in this thread has tried to blame public schools for our nation's educational failures. But the study makes it pretty clear that the more stridently religious schools are really dragging down our nation's performance (we're getting our ass kicked in math and science by most every other nation in the industrialized world).

[Ladyhawk]

144. It was quite awhile ago, but I bet the same thing goes on today.

I attended fundy school until 1985. A lot of the same teachers are still there, so I doubt much has changed. There are "science" textbooks solely devoted to debunking evolution.

When I got to college (a liberal Christian college), I was surprised that the biology teacher there believed in evolution. He just thought god directed it. A lot of my ideas were being challenged simultaneously. One of the first ideas that I liked was that women should have equal rights. My fundy school taught that women should be subjected to men. I started asking why, especially when many of the men I knew were abusive and stupid. There certainly weren't any males that could compete with me academically in high school and only one who was my equal in college. It really pissed him off that I usually scored a handful of percentage points higher on tests and essays. When he finally edged past me by a few percentage points on one test, he celebrated as if his favorite team had won the Super Bowl. I found it amusing. :)

This kid (Todd) had been accelerated through school and was younger than the rest of the Freshmen. He was a brilliant musician. He had a lovely tenor voice and could sight-read anything on the piano, but it pissed him off that Ladyhawk usually scored a few percentage points higher than he did on papers and tests. :) It also pissed him off that my politics at the time were very conservative. (It took awhile to get rid of the fundy brainwashing.) In the long run, I outscored him academically and graduated valedictorian. He was a very, very close salutatorian. Of course, he got recognized for more achievements than I did. I was not considered when the school chose those most likely to succeed. He was chosen, along with several other musicians. It turns out the school was right. I have not "succeeded" according to the rules made up by this society.

I find it very interesting that I'm currently concentrating heavily on music, which was Todd's forte, so to speak. I've been thinking a lot about Todd lately. He'd be laughing at my clumsy attempt to perfect a Bach piece on the piano, but he might be impressed by how much my singing voice has improved. I've been thinking about adding a music minor or major to my academic repertoire. During high school I was discouraged from pursuing music, but I realize now that I did have the talent. In college, I was terrified of anyone hearing my voice. This made voice lessons a chore for my instructors.

I can do it now. I can sing in front of others: Star Vicino <---recent recording of a piece I sang at a recital. I can play the piano, too, although I am no virtuoso. Weird how life works, ain't it?

[Ladyhawk]

176. As an aside, my music teacher (college level) is a creationist.

This town is full of them. It shouldn't surprise me, considering my experiences growing up in this town, but I'm continually amazed. I guess I'm thinking that if I figured it out, others should have, too.

[countingbluecars]

22. In my experience as an elementary teacher,

I have found many former private school students and home-schooled students to be skilled at basic rote computation skills. However, some lack the conceptual knowledge (such as number place value) necessary for higher level thinking in math.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. The politicians are indeed responsible

as they are the ones who vote to fund education and to what degree. You are in charge of the children you give birth to and no others. Parenting is one small part of the big picture of education. You as a parent don't choose curriculum, you don't hire teachers, you don't hire or fire administrators, you don't appoint school board members, you don't supply classrooms. You have ONE vote for each politician who makes the big decisions that affect education in ways you apparently don't understand.

Your own mistakes are but one very small part of a very large picture here.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. Great!! I want to live in Beverly Hills.

I hear they have great schools there and my kids deserve the best. By your logic, I can choose Beverly Hills since I have the right to decide where I live.

Will YOU be paying my mortgage?

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. This is a progressive website

Maybe you are on the wrong board? I would think the name would be a dead giveaweay.

That Ritalin argument is a red flag to us teachers here on DU. Talk about a misconception. sheesh :eyes:

[thinkingwoman]

65. Ritalin argument is a red flag to teachers?

I have 3 public school teachers in my family (working in 2 different states with 20+ year careers in each case), yet my son's public school tried to blackmail us into putting him on Ritalin inthe 2nd grade.

His problem? He has a genius IQ and was dreadfully bored.

We patiently explained his high IQ. We volunteered at his school. We tried to work with his teachers to properly stimulate him (and his bored classmates). We did all the right things.

And they tried to blackmail us.

We pulled him out and have homeschooled him for 8 years. He'll graduate H.S. early and ready to start any college he chooses in the next 2 years.

If you're a good teacher, you'll abandon knee-jerk reactions, admit the problems that exist in public schools, and work to solve them.

[proud2BlibKansan]

74. Yes it is a red flag

I have spent a quarter century teaching (half those years in special ed) and I have never once told a parent to put their kid on Ritalin. I know no teacher or administrator who has done that either.

You know why we don't/can't do that? Because it is illegal. We are NOT doctors. We are not qualified to make a medical diagnosis. Now if this really happened to you, you need to run out and hire an attorney and file a lawsuit. You would assuredly make enough money to afford the most exclusive private school in your community.

This is not a knee jerk reaction, BTW. It is the truth. If you don't believe me, ask any attorney specializing in education law.

[Yupster]

88. Yet there are too many boys

on behavior modifying drugs today regardless of who prescribes them.

Some day this chicken will come home to roost as we figure out all the long term side effects.

[proud2BlibKansan]

92. And you are basing that conclusion on which longitudinal study?

[Yupster]

137. Just the study of my Little League team I coached

Twelve perfectly normal kids.

Five of them on behavior modifying drugs.

That's got to be a long term disaster having that many of our boys taking drugs. Every druf has its downside and often you don't find out about it till years or even decades later.

[proud2BlibKansan]

142. That is what they call anecdotal experience

and no scientist or statistics expert would ever take that as evidence of a problem.

I hate to break it to you, but one Little League team does not describe a nationwide problem.


This year, one fourth of the kids on my caseload are in foster care. Does that mean that 25% of our kids are now in foster care in this country?

75% of the kids in my school come from homes where English is not the primary language. Does that mean we have three fourths of our kids in this country growing up in homes where the adults don't all speak English?

You know those commercials where they say 'four out of five dentists recommend _______"? You do realize they could very well have only interviewed FIVE dentists??? :)

[TriMetFan]

133. Oh how I agree with you on this.

Pumping drugs into our boys is just bullshit.

[thinkingwoman]

98. just because something is illegal

doesn't mean people don't do it.

My son's second grade teacher at Rogers Elementary in Bloomington Indiana told me and my husband at a parent teacher conference more than 8 years ago: "if you put him on Ritalin, I can look the other way when he misbehaves and I won't have to punish him so severely. If you don't put him on Ritalin..."

This really happened. We didn't sue because we didn't have enough money to "hire an attorney and file a lawsuit." That's usually not an option for the working poor.

We told all three of our teacher family members (my step-sister, my step-mother, and hubby's mother who happens to teach special ed) what happened and NONE of them reacted like you. All of them expressed regret that such things do happen, despite the fact that they are illegal and morally reprehensible. They all recommended transfering districts or homeschooling. Apparently their experiences aren't real enough for you either.

Keep your head in the sand if you want. Doesn't affect my life any.

[proud2BlibKansan]

102. So sue her

Trust me, you can find an attorney. Ever hear of a contingency contract?

Don't want to sue? Then file a complaint with OCR. That's free.

[thinkingwoman]

104. It's been 8 years

We've moved on. Truly.

Our children are well-adjusted, well-educated, happy, open-minded, young adults, and in the end I am eternally grateful to that terrible teacher for providing the push we needed to homeschool.

We're all better off for it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

110. So you are going to allow her to continue to do this to other families?

Where's your sense of justice?

[thinkingwoman]

112. oh for crying out loud

We don't live in the past. I'm sorry if you do.

Have a nice life.

[proud2BlibKansan]

123. I wil say it again - teachers cannot diagnose medical conditions

That is pounded into our heads in teacher school and by every administrator we work for. If a teacher actually did this, in my district she would very likely lose her job.

It is illegal and wrong. But hey if it works for you to claim it happened, then I can certainly understand why you repeat the story.

[thinkingwoman]

173. self-deleted

I regret being flippant and answered in more detail below.

[thinkingwoman]

174. If it hadn't happened

I wouldn't have posted the school and city above. That would be libelous if I was not willing and able to declare under oath that the incident did actually occur. My husband can and would do the same. As a former reporter, editor, and publisher, I am acutely aware of the consequence of posting lies about people, businesses, or in this case a school, on the internet. Anyone researching that school via a google search will probably now bring up my post. No way would I risk losing everything I have to by posting something libelous.

Your suggestion that I'm only "claiming" it happened because I didn't file a lawsuit 8 years ago and won't do so now is bizarre at best.

As I stated above, if you want to live in denial, go right ahead. I've got nothing to prove to you.

[proud2BlibKansan]

181. And as I stated earlier,

it is completely wrong, unprofessional, and legally dangerous for any teacher to do this. I have spent 26 years in education, my father spent 40 years in this business and I do not know ANY teacher who has ever told a parent to put their child on Ritalin. The only place I have ever heard that claim is from disgruntled parents - mainly on discussion boards like this one.

If it really did happen, then shame on you for not reporting this teacher.

[thinkingwoman]

184. yes shame on me

and my family...way to blame the victim! :eyes:

Your responses have now reached the peak of absurdity. If these posts are an example of your reading comprehension, reasoning skills, empathy, and compassion, I pity the children you "teach."

I'm done. Feel free to have the last ridiculous word. And feel free to blame your narrow-minded world view on me. I can take it, because I don't give a flying fuck what you think.

Have a nice day.

[proud2BlibKansan]

186. The real victim here is public education

that has been unfairly criticized for too many years.

Many of the 'public education is failing our kids' talking points are included in this thread by a now tombstoned DUer.

The schools are failing.

Kids aren't learning.

Test scores are falling.

We have dumbed down our schools.

There is a soft bigotry of low expectations.

There is no discipline/zero tolerance policies are too strict. (You can take your pick on that one.)

Too many/not enough kids are in special education programs. (Another one you can pick.)

Schools are forcing parents to put their kids on Ritalin.

And all of these statements are false. Every single one. And you can bet I will refute them here on DU every time I see them.

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[countingbluecars]

43. I was stating my observations

as a teacher-not placing blame.

Parent are the major, but certainly not the only, influence in a child's life. I take very seriously my responsibility to the children I teach.

[milkyway]

56. I've read your posts throughout this thread, and I think you're missing

the point of the study. It does not suggest that parents and students need not feel a sense of personal responsibility and accountability. The conclusion that can be drawn from the study is that if a particular student were to attend a public school, chances are he would achieve a higher score on the standardized test than if he attended a private school. This goes against conventional wisdom.

In general, private schools screen their students so they are able to keep out low-performing kids. Just comparing final test results, without taking into account what kinds of students are at a school, proves nothing about the school.

Here in New York state there are four levels of achievement on standardized test scores: 4 is above grade level, 3 is grade level, 2 and 1 are below grade level. Now as an example, let's assume the average score level of the student body entering Middle School A was 3.5, and the average score when the kids graduate at the end of eighth grade is 3.2. Another school, Middle School B, has an average entering score of 2.3, and average departing score of 2.8. Which school does the better job of educating its students, the school who's eighth graders score at 3.2 or the one at 2.8? Obviously, in this example School B does a much better job educating its students.

Just simply comparing test scores at a school, without taking into account the makeup of the student body, is worse than useless; it can be very misleading. It says a lot more about the students than it does about the school personnel. This study, however, makes adjustments to compare public schools to private schools on a level playing field.

The study does not mean to imply that it's alright to do poorly in school if you come from a disadvantaged background. It simply means to compare the performance of public and private schools.

BTW, I tend to agree with you for the most part about personal responsibility. Welcome to DU.

[stepnw1f]

117. Thanks for This Info (nt)

[bricktop]

120. thanks for the welcome

I understand the statistical analysis...and the methodology,and the need for "altering" the results so that a consistent result is achieved...

But the problem is the whole educational paradigm needs re examination

we are re arranging the deck chair son the Titanic, by worrying about how we are allocating (finite) resources under the current system, which protects the incompetent, and merely promotes lots of finger pointing,and few results

rm

[stepnw1f]

128. Yeah Surrre... Whatever this means

"I understand the statistical analysis...and the methodology,and the need for "altering" the results so that a consistent result is achieved..."

Pretty damn vague statement, and once again suggestive. In fact, the right keeps saying what you just said: "But the problem is the whole educational paradigm needs re examination"

Really...? Cuz it was doing better before the Bush Admin started re-examining the "system" and started underfunding it. Maybe it's the people who keep saying it needs re-examining, that are creating the illusion that there is a problem.

Fund public education and allow the real adults to reform what neds to be reformed.

[thinkingwoman]

38. "the new study used advanced statistical techniques"

That says it all.

A gov't study says gov't (public) schools are better. What a surprise.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

55. The Dept of Education STRONGLY SUPPORTS private schools, vouchers

The article says it right there.

[thinkingwoman]

66. no kidding

but that doesn't negate my point.

[stepnw1f]

119. No It Does Not Say It All

Nice try though...:eyes:

Who's in govt right now? You really think they are cheerleading a public system? Come on....

[Balbus]

124. Well said.

[Telly Savalas]

141. Guvmint bad.

Let's shink it so we can drown it in a bathtub.

[proud2BlibKansan]

163. LOL

[thinkingwoman]

178. Golly gosh gee it's sooooo funny

when Democrats quote Republicans to Democrats they disagree with.

Yes, namecalling and insinuating somebody is Republican during Democratic infighting is a laugh riot. It's a blast here in junior high. :eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

180. You can either laugh or cry

I would rather laugh.

[thinkingwoman]

177. You trust BushCo's gov't?

Sorry, I'm just not that tolerant.

Isn't it the same gov't that claims there's no scientific evidence of global warming?

Isn't it the same gov't that gave us No Child Left Behind?

But hey, if you want to believe their study because it says something you like, go right ahead.

[TriMetFan]

40. My kids go to Catholic School here in Portland OR. for one reason....

we are Catholic. Also most of the people that send their kids to Catholic Schools here in Oregon do it because they are Catholic. I have not meet one kid that goes to my kids school that is not compassionate or accepting of others, but then again this is Portland OR. I would like to say one more thing. The Catholic schools here in Oregon do follow the same guidelines (testing) as the public schools do but with one difference if a kid in the Catholic school does not pass to the next grade they are not passed like they would be in a public school.

[milkyway]

91. I did not mean to imply that by my own anecdotal experience in our

neighborhood that you can apply it to all Catholic schools everywhere. There have been a lot of posters in this thread talking about their own experiences in private and public schools. Obviously, there is a broad range of positive and negative responses for both. And I realize my own very limited and subjective experiences may be an aberration rather than the norm. That does not, however, refute the main conclusion to be drawn from the study: as a whole, public schools score better on standardized math tests than do private schools when you equalize the differences in students' socioeconomic background.

Also, it's almost not fair...you're talking about Portland, Oregon, one of the world's coolest cities. Of course they're only going to produce great kids! We have a friend who moved from NYC to Portland about fifteen years ago. She is totally in love with Portland and will never leave. The closest I ever got was vacationing in Vancouver, which I also loved.

[TriMetFan]

132. But you see I think the study is a bit wrong.

What a lot of people don't understand is that in a Catholic school most people are not rich but more middle class and poor. You might be wondering how can the middle class or poor send their kids to a Catholic school? Will the Church helps subsidy part of the tuition. My children's tuition for 2 is 4,500 a year. My Church pays 1,000 per year to the school which brings the cost down to 3,500 for my family. Now my house whole income is above $95,000. SO I have a friend that is a single dad and his cost for 3 kids is only 1,500 or so. I have never ask or will ask how much he makes per. year because I don't need to know. But as you can see there is a big difference in how much I pay and how much he pays. So I think this socioeconomic background is bull. I think it is up to a family and how much they are involved with their kids and the "private or public" school.

Yes I know it is not fair I'm talking about Portland OR. that marches to its own beat. Also I'm a lesbian that is out and proud in my Church and kids school. We are one of the top families in the school. But like you said this is Portland OR. It's like saying apple and oranges. This is a very liberal Catholic city.

[milkyway]

134. I've never thought of Catholic schools as rich kids' schools. Here in NYC,

a lot of Catholic schools are only a few thousand dollars a year (and I'm sure there's aid available). Most other private schools, however, are $20,000 a year. Obviously, these are schools mostly for the well-to-do.

But the general viewpoint is the quality of the schools can be ranked:
1. non-Catholic private schools
2. Catholic schools
3. public schools

What the study shows, however, is that #3 is better than the combined results of #1 and #2. (The study assumes, of course, that standardized test results are a good indicator of academic achievement, but that's a whole different discussion.)

[TriMetFan]

138. But again I think this study is wrong.

I say this because our public schools here in Portland SUCK! They are so bad that they are going to try something new. Next year they are going to put boys in their own schools and girls in theirs. I think it is a good idea as long as the eduction is equal for the kids and it gets better. So here in Portland, Catholic schools are the best then the none Catholic private schools, public schools are last.
When I moved here back in the mid 80's public schools and Catholic schools were equal. I just hope that for the sake of the kids this new idea works next year. I don't like seeing any kid getting short change. Also those standardized test are used in our Catholic schools here and I can say for a fact that a friend of mine, her kid did very bad and could not be passed to the next grade in our school. So instead od making him repeat the school year this friend took him out of the school and placed him in a public school for one year. This kid pass the test at the public school and this year he is back at our school just making c's and d's.

[proud2BlibKansan]

151. So just because you say the public schools in your area suck,

you think we can jump to the conclusion that ALL public schools suck? The Catholic Schools where you live are great, so that means ALL Catholic schools are great?

[TriMetFan]

156. Hey proud2blib I never said that! But milkyways post did go after

the Catholic Schools.

"In our neighborhood there are a lot of middle-class people that send their kids to Catholic school or other more expensive private schools. Their has always been a usually unspoken assumption by the private school parents that their kids are going to superior schools. My kids have said this is the attitude of the private school kids also, sometimes insulting the public school kids for their seemingly lower status.

I've been involved with youth sports for years, and have come to know a lot of the kids in our neighborhood. The public school kids tend to be more compassionate and accepting of others. While certainly not true for every kid, I have found that as a group the Catholic school kids are much more selfish and uncaring. It's usually pretty easy to tell if a kid is a private school kid or not. I don't know if this is because of the parents that are inclined to send their kids to Catholic schools, or because of the school itself. I sometimes feel like phoning the Catholic school and telling them that whatever they're doing, it's not working."

Now again this is Portland OR. I'm talking about. And yes our public schools do suck! They suck so bad that the plan for next year is to have public schools for just boys and public school for just girls. Also Catholic Schools here in Portland OR. don't have drive-by shootings or gangs. Yes in Catholic high school there will be drugs, I'm not that stupid not to realize that. But I will send my sons to Catholic schools here in Portland as long as they are better then the public one's.

[proud2BlibKansan]

158. Yeah I understand

We just have to stop using this broad brush. I have taught in a mixture of private and public schools and have seen good and bad in that group.

We need to be focusing on attacking this RW agenda that is definitely out to destroy public education. You can't argue with that.

[TriMetFan]

160. Well Thank You for being a Teacher.

And yes I think the right wing nazi wackos are trying to take over the public schools in the other side of the Nation. All I can do is tell you what is happening over here in my state. Half the time no one even thinks about Oregon and what is happening here. Also I don't like it when people say that Catholic kids are stuck up and don't care. From pre-k on these kids go out and help in the community. They don't need to blow there horns and shout from the tallest hill about what they do to help.

[proud2BlibKansan]

161. My eldest son went to an awesome Catholic high school

They were required to do 200 hours of community service to graduate. My son decided to join the homeless club. They met at school early in the morning and on Saturdays and drove downtown where they fed and handed out clothing to homeless people. Any other school would have sent those kids to a food pantry to sort canned goods or serve meals. But this school actually took the kids to where the homeless people lived. They crawled under overpasses and went behind buildings to work with the homeless. My son is 27 now and to this day, has a sense of compassion toward the homeless that I admire greatly. He didn't get that from his parents.

He was also a struggling student and didn't really learn to read and write well until high school. I owe that school so much. It was (and still is) a true example of excellence in education.

[TriMetFan]

168. There you go. But I( bet you also had a lot to do with how your kid turned

out. My oldest boy (8 yrs old) has been going to the womens shelter since he was in pre-K. My sons and their Friends don't even think twice if the kids are poor kids or what ever to them these people are just people that need help. I have seen my son give away his lunch to hunger kids on my Bus with out blinking a eye lid. And speaking about buses. I got to go drive my big city bus now. Peace and again Thank You for being a Teacher.

[AX10]

77. New England has the best public schools in the Country.

Massachussetts is number 1!

[Gormy Cuss]

164. I don't know if that's true, but they worked for me.

:woohoo:

[NewJeffCT]

188. On average, I think it is true

especially Mass & CT. A few years back, CT was rated #1. Sure, some may think it expensive to live in this part of the country, but we do get a good return on our investment.

However, I'm sure each state has excellent public schools & crappy public schools (like here in CT, Hartford is basically a disaster... not as bad as a few years back, when the high schools lost their accreditidation, though) and, I'm not talking about New England. I'd imagine all the 50 states are similar, it's just that an average town in New England is probably a bit better than the average town in South Carolina or Arkansas.

[Gormy Cuss]

192. I think it's because of a deep commitment to literacy from colonial days.

I don't know about the South, but it seems like second nature to have strong public schools in New England. It's a matter of pride to have high participation in civic affairs and community amenities like libraries, meeting halls, museums, playgrounds, and parks even in some of the tiniest communities. People complain about their taxes but those cranky, self-sufficient Yankees just wouldn't do have it any other way.

[NewJeffCT]

193. Even in super-rich towns

where people can afford top private schools, like Westport, CT (home of Martha Stewert) Wilton, Weston, Ridgefield, etc, a lot of people don't do it because the public schools are so good. I knew a guy that was a devoted Republican, but he was bragging about how families in his town of Avon, CT were pulling their kids out of private schools and putting them into public schools in his town because the school systems had improved so much the past 10 years or so.

[Carni]

84. My kid attended private schools (non religious) until this year

One of which was supposedly for "the gifted" (which I think in retrospect was a load of bull/ marketing type ploy)

We thought we were doing the right thing spending the extra money to go the private route from Kindergarten through 3rd grade (why I don't know)

This year we couldn't afford it and my daughter started public school...and guess what?

After being told for three years that she was doing math three grade levels above what she is and after being told that all her other subjects were being at least performed at two grade levels above what she is -- she's not, she is doing well but at her own grade level.

I have friends that switched their kids to public after being told much the same type of crap--and they were appalled to find out their kids weren't even at grade level!

In other words IMO based on my experience if you shell out the $$$ to send your kids to a private school they'll stroke your ego and tell you a lot of great things (that aren't necessarily true)

I have a couple of complaints with the public school vs private school experience

The number of kids per class is my main complaint and I am not used to the stringent rules that the public school my daughter is in seems to have.

Truthfully, I have not been all that excited about dealing with "the system" but that is just my contrary personality lately in this bush age.

In my daughter's private school things were very relaxed socially and outside the box type thinking wasn't frowned upon--in her public school I think there are rules about the rules (I understand they have to do that/I'm just not a fan of it)

But with all that said I tend to agree that most private schools aren't doing anything above and beyond in the way of educating kids and the private schools should have to administer the same tests if they want to crow about how superior they are.

[seabeyond]

87. i knew it too. i have done both with kids. yup

so as these repugs tell me, i say uh uh. as we attack public school i say no way. as we dismiss our teachers, i say not a chance

[Lorien]

97. I went to a private elementary school-but it was quite liberal

the small class sizes gave us each quite a lot of individual attention, and we were taught to think for ourselves. We didn't simply memorize facts for tests. Of my fellow students that I've kept in touch with; one's a geologist, one is an architect,another is a marine biologist, one is a city planner, another is an instructor with MIT and one fellow is a philosophy professor at Yale. We came from middle to lower middle class families (parents had to participate as tutors for other people's children if they could not afford tuition-which wasn't very high to begin with). As a freelance illustrator, I'm probably one of the least accomplished people to come from that school. Not all private schools offer a sub-standard education, but I can easily imagine that religious academies place their focus on "spiritual" matters, which is throughly impractical unless one plans to join the clergy.

[Rich Hunt]

106. what an outrageously prejudiced thing to say...

've been involved with youth sports for years, and have come to know a lot of the kids in our neighborhood. The public school kids tend to be more compassionate and accepting of others. While certainly not true for every kid, I have found that as a group the Catholic school kids are much more selfish and uncaring. It's usually pretty easy to tell if a kid is a private school kid or not. I don't know if this is because of the parents that are inclined to send their kids to Catholic schools, or because of the school itself. I sometimes feel like phoning the Catholic school and telling them that whatever they're doing, it's not working.

This is bullshit, in my experience. That's an outrageously subjective statement.

We had some brats at my Catholic grammar school, but the students at
my Catholic high school were very decent and totally college-focused.

I love how these people refuse to acknowledge that for poor and working-class kids,
a private school is their best shot at college. Fact is, I wouldn't have gotten into a top
university without that education - the high school in my district wasn't that good.

As someone of a Catholic background, I rescinded my monthly donations to
DU and am posting less and less because of the anti-Catholic prejudice that
some of you have against a religion that is more often than not concerned
with social and ECONOMIC justice (something the lot of you couldn't give a shit
about - that's evident if you think a public school in a lower-class district
can compete with the privates - only a sheltered person would say such a thing).

We're urbanites and working- and lower-middle-class people for the most
part. You're welcome to your board, but we are NOT going to get run out
of the party because of your hateful slander AGAIN.

[stepnw1f]

122. Oh BooHooHoo.... Give Us All a Break

Leave and don't let the door hit ya, where the Good Lord split ya!

[milkyway]

130. You're right, it's a very subjective statement based on my own experience

(see my reply #91). And what you give to refute it is your own subjective statement based on your own experience.

The study, however, is not subjective, limited, and anecdotal. No one has provided anything in this thread other than anecdotes to refute its findings.

It was probably unnecessary for me to veer off topic in my original post, but that was a reaction to the quiet prejudices I have experienced against public schools and the families that choose them. It has been subtly implied to me several times that I am not doing the right thing by my kids in choosing public schools instead of private, even though I have the means to do so. I was very happy to see this article in the Times this morning that confirmed my belief that public schools are not, by definition, worse than private schools.

[TriMetFan]

135. I agree with you up to the point of leaving DU.

A lot of people think that we Catholics here in America just follow what ever the Pope says. Bull Shit. Most of us Catholics are very Liberal people. But just like in anything else you always just hear about the ass holes.

[Baconfoot]

155. but the discovery of the study would be that it's not "their best shot"

at achieving the advancement in education level necessary to ensure admission to college, since the public schools (you know, the ones where the teachers DO have to meet minimum proficiency requirements) outperform the private schools in terms of getting kids to score higher when you correct for certain variables about which you appear to be very concerned.

Perhaps having qualified teachers really does help a person get better educated. Who would have thought?

But, and here is where I will end up agreeing with you believe it or not, public perception of public school quality is so distorted that I think the distortion extends even to college admissions committees and hence my guess would be that, even correcting for the variables mentioned above, one's chance of admission to a given college might be better, much better from a private school.

But the solution then wouldn't be to send kids to private school. The goal is education after all. Instead, the solution would be to un-distort public perception. And, of course, to continue to improve our nation's public school system.

I would also be interested to see what could be done, if anything, to impose minimum hiring standards on private schools. Requiring them to hire qualified teachers might improve their performance. That has been my view.

[stepnw1f]

113. Another Right Wing Myth Goes BOOOOP!

Well... it's like anything else; you get what you pay for. The more funding, the better.

Just go into a rich neighborhood that has a public school.....

then go into a poor neighborhood.

It's a fact that schools are being underfunded. The nonsense the right wing spews about accountability is just part of their scheme to break and destroy the system.

[misanthrope]

129. The very same sociological phenomenon...

...goes on in Mobile AL in regard to private and public schools.

There is a status that goes with sending your your kids to private schools that drives things as much as anything else.

Granted, we are a fairly Catholic town, being the seat of an archdiocese and all, so that has an effect on enrollment.

However, there are TONS of private schools here. The older ones carry the cachet of being the breeding ground of the town's little closed clique of movers and shakers, with generations of "haves" counted as alums.

A lot of the protestant and fundamentalist private schools are little more than "seg academies" that cropped up in the wake of public school desegregation and still perform that function.

The populace here has long abandoned the public system and it is in deplorable circumstances. Funny thing is, as the standards of the public system sink further and further, the private schools have to do less to stay "above" them so what I found is that the private school educations here aren't better than public school education I got elsewhere. In other words, there's a lot of dumbasses coming out the private schools, too.

[knitter4democracy]

145. Two signs we looked for

First of all, if algebra isn't taught in seventh or eighth grade, the private school isn't worth paying for.

Secondly, ask how long the average teacher's been there. Anything over ten or so means the school is good. Teachers won't stay with the bad pay and all the attendent problems of teaching in the privates unless the school is really good.

I taught in Catholic high schools fresh out of college with my teaching certification, and the people I worked with were some of the best teachers I have ever seen in action. Those were good schools, especially the girls school.

When I asked the head of the math department at the girls school where I taught the first two years what made a good feeder school, she said that the school had to have algebra in the middle school grades. They'd done some research and found that it was a key indicator. See, most elementary teachers won't teach algebra or really aren't qualified. Secondary education teachers, though, are expensive for those schools to hire because they can only teach seventh and eighth grade, not any of the lower grades. If the school has the money and the gumption to hire secondary ed teachers for the middle school grades, it's often an indicator that they make the right choices in other areas.

I went to public schools, and our schools are very good, overall. Yes, the publics have many issues, as they are the canaries in the mine, but that doesn't mean that people should turn their backs on them. They often are the best choice.

That said, I send my kids to the Catholic school in town for religious reasons and because I checked it out and felt it was a good place. I made sure that it's not a white-flight school (good sampling of local minorities), and I also asked many questions about the socio-economic mix there (good sampling of the area as they have a good sliding scale for tuition and subsidies on top of that). Everyone in town told me that it's a grade level ahead of the local public schools, and everything I've seen my daughter bring home says that's true. I also made sure to ask about Opus Dei (no problems and no local chapter, from what they know).

I interviewed at two Baptist schools before I was hired at the Catholic girls school my first year of teaching. Those places were flat-out scary, and I wanted to call all the parents and ask them what they were thinking. I'm sure there are good Baptist schools out there, but the ones I saw were horrible. I also interviewed at a charter school before going on to the second school I taught at, and I ran away from that place. It was so badly run and so badly planned that I just couldn't teach there.

[proud2BlibKansan]

152. Algebra is part of our elementary curriculum

It was a battle, but we got it in there.

[NoFederales]

172. I'd like to hear some about that battle. SW MO could use some

serious rationale beyond "well, we've ALWAYS done it this way".

A research study or two to which you can point me would be much appreciated.

NoFederales

[proud2BlibKansan]

183. The state of Missouri has brand new standards

They are called 'grade level expectations' and they are listed on the DESE website under curriculum. I believe the link is on the left hand side of the page. I would post a link for you but my computer is running very slow tonight. If you have trouble finding them, PM me and I will send you a link.

Google 'MO DESE' and that will get you the state dept of ed website. It is really pretty easy to navigate.

[NoFederales]

187. No, I want the research studies: not the latest, greatest from DESE--what

is the research justification for the GLE's?

NoFederales

[NoFederales]

195. Links to the research, please?

NoFederales

[NoFederales]

198. Links to the research, please.

NoFederales

[knitter4democracy]

175. Yeah!

I'll bet it was a battle. Budget always is.

[proud2BlibKansan]

185. I think they have changed the title from 'Algebra'

to 'Number and Operations'. But it's Algebra. I was on the task force. One interesting thing is that the elementary teachers were the ones who wanted Algebra included in our elem school curriculum. Our opposition was from middle school teachers who didn't think it was developmentally appropriate for their kids.

[knitter4democracy]

191. That's odd.

Middle school is just the right time for learning algebra, I think.

[bleedingheart]

196. Our public school starts algebra in the early middle school years

kids that attend our public school and who elect to continue on the math track (those who want to go to college or like math) are guaranteed a year of trig and a full year of calculus before they graduate.

[aquart]

157. George W. Bush is a product of the best private schools in America.

'Nuff said.

[proud2BlibKansan]

165. LOL in all long threads like this, there is always one post

that more or less states it all in very few words.

You get the prize for this thread. :yourock:

[springsteen4senate]

169. They don't teach about flying monkeys and talking snakes

[greiner3]

189. Everyone's experience is different;

I'll grant you that public schools have done a heck of a job overall in this country; up until now. I am sure that this administration's goal is to all but close up public schools, giving tax money to parents of school aged children, so they can send the children to any school that will accept them. Unfortunately, any school will be way beyond the ability of most people to afford, leaving the vast majority of children to be educated by truly sub-par schools. I would go so far as to say that a significant number of children would not even attend school leaving the next generation with the problems of having to deal with double digit illiteracy. Of this number, I do not mean the contrived number this administration is talking about, included as non-English speaking people. The true number of illiterate adults is said to be 2-3% and that has held steady for decades. Hitler wants people who truly will have to do the dirty work for the rest of Americans.

By the way, I went to catholic school for 12 years. I received a fine education although I am sure I would have also done so at the local public schools. My mom taught for Columbus schools for over 30 years in special ed and had a wonderful time. She still has former students inviting her to their weddings etc...