The Minimum Wage and The Movie, "Saturday Night Fever"

[Yavin4]

I was just re-watching the movie, "Saturday Night Fever", and in the opening of the film, John Travolta's character, Tony, is working in a paint shop when his boss gives him a raise. Tony's pay was raised from $2.50 an hour to $4.00 an hour. The film was released in 1978. That's 28 years ago folks.

Today, the national minimum wage is $5.15 an hour. If Tony had stayed in that paint shop for 28 years, his income would have only gone up $1.15 an hour.

[Warpy]

1. Yep, and the minimum wage had already dropped by about half

in purchasing power by 1978 due to the runaway inflation caused by the oil shocks (which they blamed on greedy workers wanting enough pay to live on and got away with). The minimum wage back then would support a single person in a studio apartment in a big city and give him enough left over to go to a disco club one night a week, have a few drinks, and strut his stuff in cheap suits he probably bought from street vendors or had a girlfriend make for him.

What has been done to marginal workers in the name of fattening the rich is criminal.

[Poppyseedman]

2. Actually, he would it would have gone up $2.65 an hour not $ 1.15

He went from $2.50 an hour to $4.00 an hour. That was a 60% raise. $2.50 was the minimum wage back then. So in todays numbers, $5.15 at a 60% increase, he would be at $8.24 an hour. About the same for your average unskilled worker today.

You also assume his skills would not improve over 28 years. If he is still making minimum wage at the same place doing the same job for 28 years, quite frankly, that's a serious personal problem.

But I understand your point.

I take a very different take on minimum wage than your average DUer. I believe minimum wage actually suppresses wages for the non union exempt adult worker. It should be done away with ASAP

[Jayhawk Lib]

3. Bingo!!

I thought I was alone on this. I agree 100% with you...

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[0007]

8. Yeah, let's bring back the twelve hour work day, while we at it,

The sweat shops owners would love to see you two running things, eh In fact junior and boys would love it also.

More money for the CEO's.

[Poppyseedman]

13. I already work 12 hours a day because I want to

I can get ahead in life that way.

I certainly agree CEO make far too much money, but that doesn't affect minimum wage at all. Does it?

Go the the US dept of labor website. The average worker in this country makes about $16.00 an hour.

[AllieB]

19. You can get ahead in life by NOT working 12 hour days also

just look at Bush. He's never worked an honest day in his life.

The Department of Labor statistics are based on before-tax income, and they only base their statistics on the full-time workers, not the 'underemployed' service workers who are not allowed to work 40 hours by their employers because then they'd have to offer them HEALTH INSURANCE.

[uncle ray]

39. ahead of who? at what cost?

you can get ahead that way, but ARE you?

life isn't a competition, we're all in this together. you go ahead and work your 12 hour days, thinking your getting rich. i'll put in my eight a day, go home do my hobbies, live my life, die poorer than you, but i'll probably die a happier man, because i'll have done what i can to live life.

oh, and thanks for putting in those long hours, us lazy folk will appreciate the extra you're giving to social security!

[0007]

49. That is a lie, the average worker in this country does not make

about $16.00 an hour. And you can't show me where they do. But if you throw in the CEO's and count them as workers and all the millionaires perhaps you could.

Very poor Analogy. In fact it is right wing bull shit.

[raccoon]

67. Who's doing these averages? I make several bucks less

than that, and so do my co-workers.

Betcha if you averaged just Southern states, the figure would be much lower.

Averages can be very misleading. I remember reading somewhere that if Bill Gates walks into a bar, the average net worth of everybody in the bar jumps to a few billion.


Edited for grammar.

[formernaderite]

32. In many expensive metro areas..no one pays minimum

My youngest daughter, who's graduating high school, got a job at a mall store earning $9.50 per hour. Why so much, apparently because she already had experience...ie. had worked in a store over the summer making 7 bucks per hour. That's just shocking to me.

I happen to work in construction, and some of the subcontractors I know can't hire anyone for under ten bucks per hour. We're talking completely unskilled labor. If you are a little more skilled than hole digging you can easily ask $15 per hour starting rate.

Don't think they find it easy to fill those positions...in fact there seem to be virtually no Americans who want the work. Some of the larger construction companies do job fairs in the city to attract minority workers...it's really surprising how few people want to get their hands dirty. Well, obviously we all get responses from undocumented workers. Times have certainly changed since I was young. I was happy picking up whatever job I could. I guess in some areas of the country, minimum wage may make a difference...but not here on the east coast.

[Nikia]

41. Construction has to pay well for people to do it

Around here, in Wisconsin, construction work offers no benefits and is often seasonal. Even in season, work is often irregular, either none at all or all day endeavers. Although it is "unskilled", it often requires above average physical strength and stamina and carries a risk of injury.
In order for people to do it that need a full time job and aren't problem employees, it really does have to pay better than almost any other unskilled positions in the area.

[formernaderite]

63. I have no problem with the payrate...just that young guys

have so little interest in it. I did some back breaking work coming up...but heck, I was young and starving. I tell you, I have a small crew of subcontractors I rely on, and work pretty seasonally too. The larger companies and the smaller guys just find it pretty darn hard to find guys willing to work who aren't immigrants.

[SoCalDem]

47. Physical labor... especially outdoor labor HAS to pay more

think about it.. There are times when work can't be done, due to weather, and yet bills continue for the workers....also young physically fit guys can do physical labor , but as people age, there are just jobs that they cannot do anymore.

[formernaderite]

64. of course...but why doesn't it attract young fit guys?

Instead, they'd rather work at Mickey D's than break some sweat outside.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

66. Well, if it's not relevant

Why bitch about proposed raises that bring it to a level still below "what everybody is paying"?

Can't have your cake and it it too. Either something is harmful or it is not.

[Yavin4]

4. Please Explain Your Statement

"I take a very different take on minimum wage than your average DUer. I believe minimum wage actually suppresses wages for the non union exempt adult worker. It should be done away with ASAP"

[Poppyseedman]

11. Minimum wage is a tool to suppress the the normal

market place dynamics.

For an example. If there was no min wage. Your average 16 year old may make $3.00 an hour to start as training pay. He is not supporting a family, just his own personal needs. That frees up more payroll dollars to compensate the adult workers a higher rate.

Right now for example, a retail store can only allocate a certain amount of dollars every day to run the store. No minimum wage frees up the dollars to pay the adult employee better and the better skilled. Market forces come into play.

Right now, my 14 year son can start a job at the local supermarket for $6.00 an hour because that is the prevailing wage local businesses are willing to pay. Minimum wage does not come into play at all.

In depressed markets, where they are lots of workers, more businesses can stay in business and retain employees until times get better by being able to adjust unskilled non adult workers. That may suck, but being unemployed because of lack of jobs sucks even more.

[Dhampir Kampf]

14. You really think..

..that with the money saved from not having to keep wages at the minimum, that they would, with the freed up money, give it back in higher wages for the more skillful?

Hahahaha.

Don't think so. People are greedy, even small business.

However, I do believe that inflation was caused mainly because of the minimum wage. But just because a 16 year old doesn't have to support a family, doesn't mean he/she doesn't need the money. For instance, it was mandatory for me to get a job, I paid for groceries for the family several times with my crappy minimum wage check every week. But it helped us get by.

Not every teen wants to get a job for a new PSP, some need it aswell.

[raccoon]

68. Strongly disagree.

"inflation was caused mainly because of the minimum wage."

Minimum wage has not nearly kept up with inflation over the past few decades.

Contributing factors to inflation include the '70's oil shock and the US trying to fund the Great Society and the Vietnam War at the same time.

Not to mention costs of prescription drugs. And higher ed. I can tell you right now the increased costs of tuition aren't passed on to the rank and file. At least not in this "right-to-work" state.

[Yavin4]

16. "Market Forces" Arguments Always Carry A False Premise

Market Forces arguments carry the false the premise that all players are equal. It ignores the societal, racial, political, economic, historic imbalances.

If there were no minimum wage, several businesses like WalMart would pay $1.00 an hour, and the workers would either have to take it or leave. That wage would stay at $1.00 an hour in perpetuity because WalMart has power over the average worker.

"Market Forces" only work when imbalances between groups are adjusted through government intervention.

[AllieB]

20. When I hear 'market forces', I think Milton Friedman, trickle-down

economics, and Grover Norquist. It appears that we have a fan of all three on this thread! Too bad for the poster that those theories no longer hold water.

[Poppyseedman]

35. I am charged with crimes

of liking Milton Friedman, trickle-down economics, and being a fan Grover Norquist? I never once commented on either.

My comments on minimum wage are strictly from being in management and working in real life business situations.

Grover Norquist???

Let's see if I can play the same game you are.

I assume you like the Bill Clinton. So you also like men who cheat on their wives and get blow jobs on the job.

Guilt by association is a rethug tactic. Wasn't that fun?

[AllieB]

51. Well, what specious economic theories do you ascribe to?

Whatever they are, unfortunately they do echo Milton Friedman.

[Poppyseedman]

23. Response

Market Forces arguments carry the false the premise that all players are equal

That is exactly the opposite. Market forces divide the workers into different skill, educational, ambition levels.

If there were no minimum wage, several businesses like WalMart would pay $1.00 an hour, and the workers would either have to take it or leave

Nobody will apply for work at Wal-Mart at $ 1.00 an hour. Wal-Mart shuts down

"Market Forces" only work when imbalances between groups are adjusted through government intervention.

Imbalances between groups are a natural result of being human beings with different skills and education levels. Minimum wage is the result of government intervention. At one time it was a good thing, today it is meaningless

[readmoreoften]

34. Unbelievably silly.

There are plenty of countries where people work for less than $1 an hour and the corporations don't shut down. And don't give me that "fourteen cents an hour in Mexico is equal in buying power to..." crap. I've lived in Mexico and it's not. People don't have running water or food.

In Walmart towns, people would be making $2 an hour and they'd never be able to get out of the Walmart town because they wouldn't be able to afford the gas.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

44. The Great God "Market Forces" decrees, among other things,

that the largest employer in the area sets the standard for wages.

When I was a grad student at Yale, it was claimed that Yale's ridiculously low wages for clerical workers depressed clerical wages for the whole New Haven area, because Yale was by far the largest employer of clerical workers in town. (The lowest paid clerical workers were eligible for food stamps.) Clerical workers in other Connecticut cities were paid more. When the clerical workers went on strike, complaining that they couldn't live on what they were earning, then-president Kingman Brewster smugly said that they should get better jobs.

In another university town (Corvallis, Oregon) a captive labor market of faculty spouses with advanced degrees meant that it was easy to fill temporary and part-time teaching jobs that offered no benefits. The university became accustomed to putting instructors on quarter-to-quarter contracts, and as academic jobs became scarcer in general, people who weren't faculty spouses were forced to take these miserable jobs. (I had one of them for two years.)

Theoretically, "market forces" will entice people to leave jobs that don't pay enough and go off in search of better-paying jobs. In reality, some people are stuck in a certain geographic area, often as a result of marriage or other family ties, and don't have the option of going off and finding other jobs.

[Yavin4]

54. Rebuttal

Nobody will apply for work at Wal-Mart at $ 1.00 an hour. Wal-Mart shuts down

Here's where you're wrong, and I'll prove it. WalMart needs about 1 million workers to operate all of their stores, yet they don't offer health insurance to their workers. You would think that by not offering health insurance they wouldn't be able to attract 1 million workers, but they do. In fact, they get more applicants for job openings. The same situation would apply if they only paid $1.00 an hour because there's no alternatives.


"Imbalances between groups are a natural result of being human beings with different skills and education levels. Minimum wage is the result of government intervention. At one time it was a good thing, today it is meaningless"

Then explain how Bush got into both Yale and Harvard with below average grades? How he was able to sell a failing business for a massive profit? Imbalances happen at birth. If you're born into a wealthy, powerful family, then you can achieve more in life even if you're a total moron. Without government intervention levelling the playing field, through college loans, public education, anti-racial discrimination laws, AND A MINIMUM WAGE law, the powerful would lock everyone out.

[TahitiNut]

25. Well, that sure worked great during the Depression, didn't it?

There was no mandated minimum was until 1938 and the "New Deal." Such cartoonish 'theories,' based on mythical "invisible hands" and "market forces," hold no water in reality. If they held water, there'd be abundant evidence to support them ... and there isn't. When "market forces" come up against coercion, human misery, and survival in an economy where human misery is seen as an opportunity for some to profit immensely, we see the "market forces" of a banana republic. Compare the economic justice and vigor of the U.S. against Japan, Germany, France, Canada, Sweden, and Norway others with HALF the inequity in income distribution and we see what the absence of placing human needs above "market forces" buys. A plague of poverty. Infant mortality. Misery.

[AllieB]

27. You said it better than I did!

Thank you!

I often here college kids and kids in their 20s spout the old 'market forces' mantra. I never thought I'd see Grover Norquist's ideas come to life on a DEMOCRATIC message board!

[Poppyseedman]

36. So market forces don't exist?

[Poppyseedman]

28. Your second chart is almost meaningless.

it correctly shows the federal minimum wage has lost it's buying power, but fails to show the number of adult workers making minimum wage. The average american worker makes about $16.00 an hour now. Nice try

[AllieB]

30. Again, you mention the $16 per hour canard

See post #19.

[Poppyseedman]

38. See federal goverment

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/suppl/empsit.compheu.txt

Total Private Average Hourly Earnings (in thousands), NOT SEASONALLY ADJUSTED

$15.88

Goods Producing Average Hourly Earnings (in thousands), NOT SEASONALLY ADJUSTED

$17.37

Private Service Providing Average Hourly Earnings (in thousands), NOT SEASONALLY ADJUSTED

$15.43

Natural Resources and Mining Average Hourly Earnings (in thousands), NOT SEASONALLY ADJUSTED

$18.41

[TahitiNut]

42. I just love it when folks trot out the myth of the average.

The 'average person' in the U.S. is approximately 51% female. :rofl:

When Bill Gates visits a homeless shelter, the 'average person' in that homeless shelter becomes a multi-millionaire! We could wipe out poverty and homelessness by putting Bill Gates on tour!!!

When a CEO's wages double from $1 million to $2 million, the 'average' employee's wage in that company surges upwards. Sadly, it never seems to show up in OASDI withholding. Isn't that strange? (Maybe that's because OASDI withholding only comes out of low-end wages? the "bottom 90%" of wage-earners.)

[misanthrope]

7. Depends on where you live...

...and how desperate the people are for jobs of any sort.

I have no doubt in my mind that people in Alabama would be working for even less than they are now were there no mandated minimum wage.

Remember the Heart of Dixie is strongly anti-union. The result is that people here are poor, the standard of living lessened, the infrastructure suffers and education is shoddy.

Politicians and economic wizards here lure businesses precisely by telling them that they can pay the workers much less than they do in states with strong unions.

I often hear the phrase "there's just some jobs that Americans won't do" proffered as an excuse for finding the cheapest labor possible.

With the cultural and sociological systems in place here, the people would just take it without doing much to stand up for themselves...unless it threatened college football or their preacher told them to take a stand.

[sheelz]

22. I agree, It's all about the area!

Here in western NY, an economically depressed area, any job is hard to come by. As a a grocery store clerk in a union store we make min wage ( NY state min is $6.75 as of 1/1/06 up from $6.00 hr.) They will only hire part-time without any benefits. I have a 4-year degree and many years of retail mgmt. Half of the employees are on food stamps/medicaid because you can't live on 120.00 per week. We're trying to get outta here but it takes money.Store manger said he doesn't believe in min wage because it increase food prices?? It's a sad situation here, I see it everyday. I'm from the North Chicago suburbs and I've never seen people make half of what I made 20 years ago doing the same job with half the hours and no benefits and most of all-- no hope!

[AllieB]

24. I'm sorry for your situation

Unfortunately, it echoes the plight of many around the country. It must be especially difficult in an expensive state like New York. In addition, the heating costs must be a real burden this year. :-(

[sheelz]

33. Thanks fo the support!

Things are looking up. I got my internet back so I wouldn't have to walk the library everyday to read DU for just 1 hour and my Nation subscription should be arriving next week. DU keeps me sane along with Randi Rhodes and Mike Malloy.

BTW, Western NY is really cheap place to live if you can find a job, but don't walk out the door because all the stupid * lovers will make you sick.

[misanthrope]

43. I understand this part...

..."Half of the employees are on food stamps/medicaid because you can't live on 120.00 per week. We're trying to get outta here but it takes money."

A lot of folks don't understand how hard it is to get out of that hole, to get up and leave a depressed area when you don't have money. The older you are, with more responsibilities, the more difficult it is.

If you have any kind of a medical condition, especially if you live somewhere where jobs with insurance are scarce and there is little to no medical assistance (in Alabama, if you make more than $675 a month, you make too much for Medicaid), then you can just about kiss escape -- or relief, however you want to phrase it -- goodbye.

[AllieB]

9. How does the minimum wage suppress wages?

:shrug:

I work at an economic think tank, and I'd be interested to hear your theory.

[Poppyseedman]

18. You misquote me.

I said "suppresses wages for the non union exempt adult worker."

For a simple example: A retail store can spent only a certain amount of it's revenue for payroll. Ten people work there. Four are teenagers and six are adults. They can only afford an average of $6.00 an hour per payroll hour.

If the teenagers were paid only $4.00 an hour, market forces would allow the retail store to be able to pay the adult workers more because there are better skilled, more valuable and more reliable workers.

If all retail stores in the area operated the same, prevailing wagers for the better adult workers would raise.

[AllieB]

21. You're not being realistic

you know as well as I do that then the retail store would pay ALL of its workers $4.00 per hour to maximize profits for the sharholders. That is the basis of capitalism, which is why we have the minimum wage and 40-hour work week to protect the workers who would be at the mercy of 'market forces'. By the way, are you a fan of Milton Friedman?

[Poppyseedman]

26. That simply is not the real world and you know that.

The store would not pay all it's workers $4.00 an hour. Many better employees simply would be hired away for more money as well as their relationship with the customer base. Maximizing profits is more than cutting payroll.

How many companies have failed because they simply hired the cheapest, unskilled workers they could lay their hands on and did not meet their customers demands or expectations?

[AllieB]

29. I live in the real world, and I know FOR CERTAIN

that if companies could get away with paying workers less, they would. In areas of high unemployment, jobs are hard to come by and real wages have not risen to meet inflation.

And I did ask you a question. Are you a fan of Milton Friedman, or not? Thank you in advance for your answer.

[Poppyseedman]

50. Fan might be too strong a word.

Since you are no fan of Friedman father of the monetarists economists model, I assume you are a believer in Keynesianism Economics model.

Historically speaking Friedman models have worked better than Keynesian models. As with all things complex like economic theory, there are both positive and negative aspects to both models.

I don't get stuck in confusing ideologue positions with economic principles. Either it works or it doesn't. Economics are far too complex to boil it down to a political statement.

To your point about high unemployment areas. I assume you think it's better to be unemployed than work for less?

[ieoeja]

69. I call bullshit on a point of fact

"Historically speaking Friedman models have worked better than Keynesian models."


Prior to the advent of policies based on the Keynesian model (i.e. before the New Deal) the United States experienced seven or eight (one is disputed) economic depressions. Since then, we have experienced zero.

So historically speaking, the Friedman model produced a Depression every 12 to 15 years while the Keynesian model has produced none in over 70 years.

[The Straight Story]

61. My only problem with what you're saying is

If they would get away always with paying the minimum why do so many pay above that?

I DO like the minimum wage as it protects against virtual slavery by those who own the most - ie, if there were only 500 huge corps in US and they all decided together to pay less (ie, near zero) where would the competition come from to lure people away to make higher wages?

Giving a license to someone to do business comes with some responsibility - and this plays into the whole idea of unfunded mandates set down by government. To wit: you must have car insurance which you must pay for, your kids must live in a place safe (read repairs to house, enough food, et al) or the state may come and take them away - and so on and so forth.

The government and society sets certain expectations of us as citizens, and those generally cost money. As not all people can/will be business owners then they will be workers and as such are very needed by both business and government to generate revenue. Business will seek to maximize their profits, and individuals will fight back against that to maximize their profits (wages).

By setting a minimum standard we ensure only those able to start a business and keep things fair can do so - and if they don't like it then instead of the employees having to move to find better wages the business can up and move to find cheaper labor (which they are doing now by outsourcing).

In a global economy the local businesses are the ones which will most likely stay put (obviously) and so they are most affected by minimum wage. So in that sense the minimum wage today can said to be problematic unless and until there is an agreement between nations for wage standards.

Perhaps the real answer is somewhere in between....

[Nikia]

37. Well, they could always pay adult workers more than mw now

I worked at a fast food restaurant where they generally started the children at minimum wage and paid the adults at least a dollar an hour more because the adults were legally allowed to do all parts of the job, generally had prior work experience, were more mature, and could work during the all important lunch rush hour (the time when our store did the most business). There is no rule that any business has to pay as little as minimum wage. It is naturual that they would pay more skilled workers more. Some places pay everyone more because the labor market in their area would result in not enough workers or mostly workers who they would not care to employ if they only paid minimum wage. Some places pay more because they want better workers than their competition.

[Xithras]

70. Not necessarily.

I'm not an economist, but I am a business owner. Businesses generally budget by allocating a certain portion of their revenue to wages and benefits. X% is for payroll, X% is for marketing, X% is for facilities maintenance, X% is for product research, etc. In most companies, including mine, those percentages are fairly well fixed. If I were forced to increase the pay of my lowest paid interns by 5%, I can't just magically draw that money out of a special hidden bank account. I can't slash facilities maintenance or my offices will fall apart, I can't cut payroll or business will drop and I'll be laying people off, and I can't cut profit because that's MY paycheck (it's a job, I don't run it as a charity and I expect a paycheck for my work).

So where would I get the money? I'd probably trim it from the yearly raises for the rest of my employees. Most of my employees would LOSE pay, so the bottom pay tier could be brought up.

In the fast food world, most restaurants are run as franchises. The cashier at your local Jack In The Box doesn't actually work for Jack In The Box, he works for some local company that franchised rights to the JITB name. That franchise owner typically isn't wealthy, and the profit margins on his restaurant depend more on the sales at his stores drive thru than the condition of the parent corporation. The owner of that JITB has to set his wages based on the sales of his particular store or chain of stores.

Now think about this. There are typically 3-4 employees working at a JITB at any given moment. That's $20 and change an hour in labor, and probably closer to $40 once you factor in workers comp and other mandatory insurance. This is being funded by the sales of $2 hamburgers, of which maybe 50 to 75 cents is actually profit. The rest goes into paying franchise fees and paying for the raw food needed to create the product.

Now, from that 50 to 75 cents per sale, the owner of that JITB has to pay his roughly $40 an hour in labor costs, pay the mortgages on his buildings and property, pay for maintenance and upkeep on the property, pay taxes on his sales, and still pocket enough profit to make the whole venture worth his time.

I've seen posters right here on this board advocate raising the minimum wage to $10 or $12 an hour, and I always wonder at this. How is that JITB owner going to keep his business running if he had to pay that kind of wage? Raise the cost of a hamburger to $5? Who'd buy one? Cut staff? That compromises both safety and quality. Slash spending in other areas? What, do they use cheaper meat or let the building fall apart? The reality is that there's no way to increase wages in those types of low-profit businesses without costing people their jobs.

[Nikia]

72. They will raise costs if necessary

Although relatively low cost is an advantage of fast food, convience is also a bigger issue. If minimum wage greatly increased, all restaurants would be affected and they would raise their prices at least after a while. Except in certain markets, many fast food franchises all have the same prices for food across the country. This occurrs even though some franchises are paying most of their employees minimum wage while other franchises are paying most of their employees closer to $10/hour. Although fast food may look like easy work, getting better employees really gives the store an advantage. As I mentioned before, out busiest time was lunch time. Part of the reason for that was that the store was located near a business park. Our store and another restaurant were the closest fast food restaurants to that business park. There were other fast food restaurants nearby but they were up a few blocks. The key to getting the most sales during that time period was speed and accuracy. That is what those people, some of who only had a half hour wanted. Another key was being able to get someone out into the dining area cleaning tables as soon as people left. That required having good employees and having enough to do the job.
During less busy times, good employees were also important. Not only do good employees make a good impression, but we were able to get by with fewer employees during slower times than many stores of a similiar volume. If three better paid employees are doing the work of four:
3 employees making $7/hour each =$21/hour labor
4 employees making $6/hour each =$24/hour labor
I am favor of a minimum wage because it prevents near slave labor in economically depressed areas. I do think that many businesses are aware of the advantages of not being the poorest paying place in town though and will choose to pay above minimum wage. In areas of high unemployment though, more people will be paid minimum wage and would be paid less if it were legal to be pay less.

[ieoeja]

73. How many exempt (salaried) employees at your avg JITB?

Poppyseed did specifically state those paid minimum wages are taking wages away from exempt (salaried professional) employees. I can't imagine there would be many such jobs at JITB franchise.

[Nikia]

75. I think most assistant managers are exempt

At least that is the way it was at the chain I worked for. The assistant and full managers were all salaried. They were required to work up to 55 hours per week, which they usually did. The general manger chose to work close to 80 hours per week for whatever reason (I think that he was winning bonuses by keeping his labor hours down).
I remember one of the shift supervisers, who made close to $9/hour as one, getting promoted to assistant manager at a salary of $24,000. She thought that she was getting a big raise. Although she was making more, if she had done the math she would have realized that she wasn't getting a very good deal.

[ieoeja]

71. I think a lot of posters here don't understand Poppyseedman.

"I believe minimum wage actually suppresses wages for the non union exempt adult worker.

See that word "exempt"? That means, "salaried professional". So for those of you unfamiliar with the terms he is bandying around, the above sentence states:

"I believe minimum wage for unskilled labor hurts salaried professionals."


You illiterate scum should be ashamed of yourselves. In your greed and false pride, you seek to act above your station. You would bring your betters down to your level and see all things moral and decent disappear from the face of the Earth rather than accept your lot in life. Shame! I cry. I can only pray that God will forgive you. For such forgiveness is beyond my mortal being. It makes my soul cry out in anguish to see your craven behaviour debase God's creation. So as I would to Satan himself, I shout, "begone you craven beast, slink back to the hole from which you crawled and muddy not my sight with your ill-kempt form."


I really should stay off message boards when re-reading classics like The Count of Monte Cristo.

[SPKrazy]

6. Perhaps, but not necessarily

He surely would have either risen to a management position there and got a bigger raise, or he would be working the job he had back then with raises along the way that would have gone over your estimate.

I agree that the minimum wage is terrible. Many areas starting wages are because of the market above minimum wage. Most jobs that are minimum wage don't require any skills. With that low of income a person could qualify for grants to train for something better.

What we need is a higher minimum wage nationally.
More encouragement to stay in school.
More opportunity to train for skilled labor if a person isn't going to college.

[Yavin4]

10. Your Missing My Point

In 1978, $4.00 an hour was considered a helper's wage, and today, that wage has only risen to $5.15 an hour.

[SPKrazy]

12. No, I'm not missing your point

I agree that the minimum wage should be raised

read my post

I was just disagreeing with your logic about SNF Travolta's wage over the course of 28 years


Minimum wage should go up, it hasn't for years

[Dhampir Kampf]

15. Sadly..

..It probably won't while Mr. Dubya is still in office.

[readmoreoften]

17. Stay in school? college?

A vocational school or job training program is the best bet. If not that, then a job that gives you a hard skill: cinematography, video editing, sound technician, x-ray technician, medical secretary, library science etc. There is a crisis in wages across the country. I was talking to a Ph.D. student in the sciences at Yale the other day and she thinks there is about a 1 in 5 chance of getting a job with her degree. Most of the M.A.s and Ph.D.s I know either transfer to office work that they could've been doing all along without an advanced degree, or they are working as adjuncts with no benefits making $15,000 a year.

What we should really be doing, in my opinion, is whatever we can to make our unions stronger; anything we can to stop losing jobs to foreign competition in the digital age (by passing laws that benefit companies that hire locally).

But I'm no expert. I just see poverty and fear everywhere I look and I'm middle class.

[Nikia]

40. I have a biology degree and want a different job

Unfortunately, it seems that every lab job, requiring only a 4 year degree and less than 10 years of experience, pay less than $12/hour. I have applied to jobs with a range advertised that went higher than that, but as soon as they asked and found out that I wanted to make towards the high end of the range (like $14/hour), it seemed clear that they didn't want someone so expensive.
Unfortunately, unless you have "connections", you really need a degree in a specific higher paying area and have a good internship in college.

[readmoreoften]

46. Oh yeah, the INTERNSHIP in college scam.

You need to be rich enough to work for free for a few years if you ever want a job these days. You really need to be rich to get a job.

[SPKrazy]

52. I worked in a paid internship in grad school

it didn't pay much, but we lived in a cheap apartment, drove old cars, ate spam and pasta, and my wife worked in a bookstore at that time.

I graduated, went to work, my wife and I moved, then she got a job in the field that she had been in college for but had never finished her degree. She got laid off and got about 1 year of unemployment, went to school and finished her degree.

[AllieB]

53. How did she get one year of unemployment?

Most states only offer 24 weeks. I was one of the grad students who got a paid internship also. But it paid so little, I lived with my parents. Luckily, I was able to do this. Many of my fellow grad students had to decline the offer.

[SPKrazy]

57. During Poppy's Term (Senior *) He kept signing extensions to

unemployment benefits. She didn't even have to look for work because she was in school in a government program (for dislocated workers) that paid for her school as well.

Probably this program doesn't exist anymore, but it was a Godsend at the time.

[readmoreoften]

65. I live in NYC and I can't do that.

With rent that's over $1000 a month (and I still have mice) and no kitchen (microwaved food or take-out only), plus having to take cabs in the pouring rain/snow to avoid getting sick, you can't live on the $25 a day stipend.

[SPKrazy]

76. Move

I mean I don't mean to sound mean, but NYC is outrageously expensive.

Move somewhere that you can afford to live and go to school.

Why live in $1000 a month apartment with mice????

I just don't understand that.

[Nikia]

59. That's why I didn't get an internship

It wouldn't have worked out for me as far as time and money. I might have been able to manage it, but I didn't realize how much that it would have helped me at the time.
Some colleges have internships built into their programs. Students are required to take an internship, get help finding one, and are given academic credit consistent for the amount of time and effort that they put in. One of the colleges that I had considered required every student to spend a semester doing an internship. I had thought that was a stupid requirement at the time and ended up not applying. I didn't realize that these students were probably at a big advantage. In a way though, required internships do seem a bit not right, paying the school for to do free or low paid labor.

[RobinA]

62. Internship

<<Oh yeah, the INTERNSHIP in college scam>>

That's me now. One year unpaid labor to finish grad school. Agency gets my free labor for a year and provides next to nothing (no computer, no phone, no personal work space, very little supervision) and what I get is the ability to say on my resume that I interned there for a year. I just hope my future employers don't know how little THAT'S worth.

[alphafemale]

31. Even if Tony coulda' made $45/hour. He didn't need to be mixin' paint....

...for the rest of his life.

He had talent and drive beyond all that.

I know that's not the OP point...but there is a reason SNF still resonates.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

45. More on the buying power of the minimum wage

I recall prices in 1968-72, when the minimum wage was $1.25.

One term at the University of Minnesota (full course load) was $125 for a commuter. (100 x minimum wage)

You could buy a pair of jeans at Penney's for $5.00, but you had to pay $7.00 for Levis. Shirts (the kind with buttons, not T-shirts) were $3.00-5.00. (3-6 x minimum wage)

You could get a pair of nice women's dress shoes for $16.00. (about 12 x minimum wage)

Apartment rent was generally $100 per bedroom. (80 x minimum wage)

It was possible to eat at a real restaurant and get change from a dollar.

A $50,000 house was really luxurious.

An LP record was $2.98.

A few things were more expensive in real terms then. A pair of pantyhose was $2.00. A stereo was about $200. The first pocket calculators were $300--in early 1970s dollars!

Try this exercise with today's minimum wage, and see how the ratios stack up. Electronic items will be cheaper. Other stuff will be more expensive in relation to the minimum wage.

[KitSileya]

48. In other words, everythign you actually *need* to live,

is more expensive. You can survive without a calculator, or a cd, or a stereo. But you cannot survive without food and housing, and you need clothes as well.

I mentioned on the Oprah thread about minimu wage earlier this week, that I always have my vocational students compare American and Norwegian salary standards - it's a good way to teach American culture (i.e., they really don't care about their workers at all) and make them aware of the differences between the two countries. A Norwegian minimum wage worker has to work for less than 10 minutes (after taxes!) to earn enough to buy a liter of milk, half of that for a loaf of bread. An apartment is usually ca NOK4000, about a week's work, but there are many programs by the government designed to help young peopl buy their own place to live. With the payment of taxes, you get health insurance, education (including higher education), 1 year paid maternity leave, retirement benefits after age 67. This fires up my future construction workers, plumbers, and carpenters as nothing else does the entire school year. It's easy to get complacent and spoiled when you live in a country and society as safe as Norway, but when they realize that even a superpower like the US does not offer the same security and opportunity, they sure appreciate things more.

[Yavin4]

55. I Want To Quote The Great American Philosopher, Chris Rock

"What does the min. wage mean? It means that a business would pay you less, but it's against the fucking law."

It's that damn simple.

[AllieB]

58. Spot on!

If it weren't for minimum wage laws, the gap between rich and poor would be even wider. I'm amazed that I'm seeing right-wing economic theory bandied about on a Democratic message board.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

60. Really!

Why do you think there are so many jobs for illegal immigrants, offered by (usually) wealthy cheapskates who don't think that anyone not of their social class deserves a decent life.

Anyone who can't make a living by offering a decent wage has probably expanded too fast.

The coffee shop in Portland's renowned Powell's Books used to be run by a woman named Anne Hughes, who is a staunch political activist. When the health care crisis first came into the news, a newspaper reporter revealed that Hughes offered health insurance to the employees of her coffeeshop.

Her reasoning was that she could never have kept the coffeeshop open the same hours as the bookstore (9AM-11PM, 365 days a year) without employees. They were therefore part of the reason that her business was successful and were entitled to share in the profits. As long as she was making a living, she didn't care about getting rich.

I think that the reason so many business owners are against the minimum wage is that they believe that simply by owning a business and working hard, they have a divine right to get rich. But they don't.

They never stop to think that high wages mean more buying power for everyone. If they pay higher wages, their neighbor's business will prosper, and if their neighbor pays high wages, their business will prosper.

I think it's a telling fact that in today's United States, only the stores for the very rich and the very poor are prospering. The old stalwarts that appealed to a middle income market are in trouble.

Our income distribution is moving toward that of a Third World country.

Oh, by the way, college students may be interested to know that it is no longer possible to attend the University of Minnesota for 100 times the minimum wage. Tuition is now 600 times the minimum wage.

[OhioChick]

56. 4 Bucks an hour in '78, huh?

Ohio's minimum wage now is $4.25.

http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm#Ohio

[onenote]

74. not quite right

Ohio, like most states, has different minimum wage levels depending (a) on the annual revenues of the employer and (b) whether the employee is a "tipped" employee. Even in Ohio, the minimum wage is $5.15/hour for non-tipped employees of employers with more than 500,000 in revenues annually.

If you're a tipped employee, the employer can pay you less than 5.15, but is supposed to make up the difference if tips plus wage are less than $5.15.

http://www.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm

onenote