We are devolving at such an astounding rate it is frightening.

[Skidmore]

Just unraveling as a society, from our economy and educational system to our political structure. I don't even want to address the issue of morality that masquerades as a reality TV show. We haven't just experienced a hard turn to the right but the idiots in charge have slammed us into reverse and we are screaming back to the early 19th century in some areas and straight for the 14th in others. I remember reading on a forum on another board I used to frequent some time ago, a freeper type actually posting that the left should not get too confident because when the 2000 election was over, they would turn the clock back 70 years. I've always wondered if that was an insider or just a koolaid drinker. Here we are at the edge of the abyss and not one person in power with integrity to grab the steering wheel.

[Blutodog]

1. Turning back

They can try but reality has a funny way of catching up with people who want to freeze the action. The rest of humanity will proceed along without us if they win. Already our standing world-wide is slipping away because of these idiots. They could careless.

[flordehinojos]

2. and what for me is breath-taking is that so many people don't care as long

as they fill their pockets with gold and silver coins...and i always thought america was the first thing one had to defend--from inside power-grabbers like the bush family...and if ever a statue to bush one and/or bush two goes up (because poppy condones, approves, supports and masterminds everything bushieboy does) i hope it just comes down as fast and furious as the one to stalin, the one to saddam hussein and the one to whatever other dictators have carved their effigies in bronze, or gold, or marble.

[ret5hd]

4. they might THINK they're filling their pockets with gold and silver...

but all they are REALLY hoarding is (increasingly) worthless paper, and maybe some zinc, nickel, and copper in the change jar. But not gold and silver.

[flordehinojos]

5. i like how you put it, (increasingly)WORTHLESS PAPER...the worthlessness

of which, once people begin to realize such worthlessness, will for sure fire up our slow burning third world war. Economy, among other things, has always been at the bottom of wars, especially world wars, and the long line of sickening bushes have profited from them all the way.

[Lexingtonian]

3. I don't see that

I see this moderate Republican centeredness of the country, which has been the social convention for as long as I can remember, dropping away during the past year. The center didn't hold, a bottom fell out.

The country isn't thrilled with the Right, but it has the plurality of power and is getting its way on government stuff. But in private life and public opinion, the trend is pretty moderate-to-liberal. That contrast makes for a pretty bizarre national atmosphere. One is going to subdue the other during the next year. I'm putting my money on The People.

[Skidmore]

7. I don't have as much hope as you do. It wouldn't take but

an event or a rash word to tip us over the edge.

[gratuitous]

14. I think you're on the right track

And who among us thought this murderous bunch of thieves was going to give up power easily? Their blood-stained fingers won't come off the levers of control until we snap them off, phalange by phalange -- figuratively speaking, of course.

[OKDem08]

6. their time is limited

the 20-something generation, I believe, largely sees the folly of their endeavors

[ret5hd]

8. i thought the same thing of the 20-somethings of the '60's...

and look where they are (largely) at now.

[The2ndWheel]

13. Except a decade hasn't gone by

where we aren't imposing our will somewhere on this planet, militarily, economically, or culturally.

Nothing against the 20-something generation, since I'm part of it.

Power's time is never limitied.

[AngryAmish]

9. Are we not men?

[Skidmore]

10. Is that a philosophical question or a literal one? If it is the

former, I hope so, but if it's the latter, I'm not plumbed right, so no.

[AngryAmish]

11. Are we not men?

We are Devo.

Devolution was the Devo thing.

[Lorien]

12. Except that education was better 70 years ago. Entertainment

was often more intelligent, and the media wasn't entirely owned by six mega corporations. We also didn't have mega corporations like Wal-Mart destroying our smaller towns.

It certainly sucked to be a woman or minority back then. Still sucks today-but not as much. Give the Right wingers time and they'll send us back even further.

The environment is also in one hell of a lot of trouble. The fundies keep hoping that climate change will help to bring about the end times. When in human history have we had so many ways to destroy ourselves, and so many PRAYING for life on earth to end?

[depakid]

15. You ain't seen nothing yet

As energy inputs (from petroleum and natural gas) fall further into depletion, society is going to be forced to become even less complex and centrally structured than it is now. Typically, that involves a lot of corruption at the top and progresses rather rapidly once it's begun. That's how it's happened to many if not most complex societies throughout history.

[Peace Patriot]

17. Excellent comment, depakid! The decline of most complex societies

can be traced right to deforestation (for fuel), and also to related agriculture-caused ecological collapse. North Africa, for instance, was called "the bread basket of the Roman Empire." Look at it today! It's become a desert--as has the "Fertile Crescent." Plato complained of Greece's deforestation way back then--he remarked on the flooding, the loss of topsoil, etc. Numerous civilizations have had to go looking for more fire wood and timber for ships and buildings, and for fertile, food-producing land, after having deforested their neighborhoods with related ag land degradation--several ancient Middle Eastern civilizations, the Greeks, the Romans, the Chinese, the Europeans, the English--all of them stretching their supply lines much too far. I think the U.S. has lasted as long as it has, as an economic powerhouse, because of its once vast forests--now almost gone (most forests wiped out, or so overlogged, they will take hundreds of years to recover and be able to produce usable wood, if ever)--and has been prolonged by the switch to oil, which will be gone in a decade or two. And talk about over-stretched supply lines, that need an Army to protect!

Change or die! That's about the size of it--and, in this case, not just die as a civilization, but kill off the whole planet with us--by our vast pollution and consumption. Big job we have ahead of us! We're up to it--I know we are--if we can just get these fascist dinosaurs off our backs. See my post below. And we need to look south these days, for inspiration, and for how to do it--an incredible revolution taking place in Latin America--virtually the entire map gone "blue" with leftist governments sweeping elections in Argentina, Chile, Brazil, Uruguay, Venezuela and now Bolivia. And they are quite serious about the end of U.S.-based global corporate predation.

[Peace Patriot]

16. "We haven't just experienced a hard turn to the right..." --'We'???

Be careful about that word "we." What I see is a huge disconnect between the people and the power. I've followed both the issue polls and the presidential approval polls over the last couple of years, and you'd be amazed at what they show. In short, a huge, solid 60/40 progressive majority in this country--on war, on torture, on the deficit, on women's rights, on Social Security--you name it--with the numbers sometimes well over 60%--and a parallel 60/40 disapproval of Bush. Bush approval has never been very strong--except for a very brief period after 9/11; was too weak for him to get re-elected (according to Zogby), and has sunk UNDER 40% most of this year. And this 60/40 anti-Bush ratio parallels other stats as well--for instance, the Democratic 60/40 blowout success in new voter registration in 2004.

So, "we," the American people, have NOT "experienced a hard turn to the right." 60% to 65% of us have maintained our progressive views, despite relentless propaganda and fearmongering, and a near total Bush lapdog corporate press.

It's time for us to ask ourselves, not, "What's wrong with US?", but rather, "What's wrong with this picture?"

---------------------------

Throw Diebold and ES&S election theft machines into 'Boson Harbor' NOW!

[natrat]

18. it came down to ohio, as predicted, and they stole it

where there was a slight liberal tilt then and minor disconnect from power,,,now the gulf must have widened

[Peace Patriot]

21. I don't think the tilt was all that slight. My guestimate for the margin

of Kerry's victory is at least 5%--something of a landslide. How it "came down to Ohio" is that the election theft machines had to be pre-programmed to certain percentages, and Kerry was beating those percentages both in Ohio and in other states. I don't think it was that easy for them to tweak the vote electronically on election day itself. I think the programing had to be done ahead of time. Thus, Plan B was enacted--the overt, visible, highly provocative suppression of Democratic votes in Ohio, mostly in poor black precincts (also student precincts). If they had NOT had to pre-program percentages, then I don't think they would have implemented Plan B--they wouldn't have needed it.

I don't know if this will continue to be the case. But if it is, then we can have the hope of winning some elections by sheer voter turnout, if we can also prevent massive, overt suppression of Dem votes.

All polls--on the issues, and on approval of Bush--show a 60/40 anti-Bush majority. This 60/40 progressive majority has been consistent for several years, on all issues, going back to 58% disapproval of the Iraq war, before the invasion, and disapproval of torture "under any circumstances" (63%, May '04). Bush has never had high personal approval--except for just after 9/11--and his approval ratings leading up to the election were so low that Zogby said he couldn't win. They began a steep fall on his inauguration day (which was an unprecedented low of 49%), and have never recovered. He's been UNDER 40% (38% currently) most of this year. This 60/40 anti-Bush majority is also consistent with the Democrats' blowout 60/40 success in new voter registration in 2004.

So you have to wonder if the Bush approval polls around election time were accurate. (They showed him in decline and Kerry on the rise, but very close). The election itself was a joke. (I mean, how can you trust a vote count conducted by Bush's buds at Diebold and ES&S using "trade secret," proprietary programming code, with virtually no audit/recount controls?). And the exit polls--which Kerry won by a 3% margin--did not reflect millions of purged and suppressed Dem votes.

If what the American people feel about Bush and his policies is basically 60 against for every 40 for--which certainly seems to be the case, in a lot polls over time- then Kerry did a quite miserable job of representing the majority, to end up with only a 5% margin of victory. In that sense, I think Kerry deserves criticism. He would have blown Bush away if he had been anti-Iraq war, anti-torture and more progressive on some other issues (universal health care?). He might have overcome the electronic fraud, and might be in the White House today (--although, personally, I think they had a Plan C, in case that happened: a selective "terrorist alert" shutdown of the voting).

[earth mom]

19. K & R! eom

[neebob]

20. Oh, I dunno

Just last night I was watching Kingdom of Heaven (a movie about the Crusades in the 12th century) and thinking how little has changed since then. I'm totally serious.

[natrat]

22. there was a brief period of american enlightenment, maybe nt