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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-29-06 07:02 PM
Original message
Poll question: Is it just me, or has the face of America changed so much...
Edited on Sun Jan-29-06 07:08 PM by Tom Yossarian Joad
that it hurts to watch anymore?

We were formed on an idea that would give the common man the ability to survive in an even playing field, to worship or not worship as our individual conscience dictated.

Now... Today... things are so different than even fifty years ago. Christianity has devolved into a a branded bastardization of 15th Century Catholicism. We're not selling Papal bulls, but we are selling prayer cloths and monuments to what would gag any infinite creator that I could ever imagine.

Today, the nation that wanted to just exist to protect its own ideals has taken it upon itself to try and transform the rest of the world into an image of corporate aristocracy. This nation that has relentlessly upheld the idea of personal freedom is now hell bent upon convincing its populace that the fight against an unknown enemy is now more precious than the ideals upon what this nation was formed.

King Arthur is dead... Along with Franklin, Washington and Jefferson. The ideal has not only been corrupted, it has been replaced by Wall Street like marketers with astounding efficiency. The Limbaughs and Hannitys have convinced the sheep that all is good and well. They have convinced them that WE are evil. That we hate America. That we want the destruction of America.

The do their master's bidding.

The corporation can not profit continually and highly while the concerns of the workers are met. Health care lightens the coffers of the investors who do nothing but drain the blood of the worker as if they are vampires at a feast.

This nation has died.

We just don't know it yet.



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brokensymmetry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-29-06 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
1. I voted that it died a long time ago.
I'm not sure how long. The 60's, maybe?

:shrug:
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-29-06 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I'm thinking earlier than that. When We invaded the Philippines maybe?
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-29-06 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Manifest Destiny Never Drove the Domestic Politics Like Today
Cute little show wars were the style--Ronnie had the last one (Greneda, Panama)
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wiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-29-06 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. It died with the advent of the Moral Majority
But we're reviving it and will prevail. God is on OUR side.
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-30-06 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. Oh shit. We're fucked.
:evilgrin:
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-29-06 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
4. I Am a Stranger In A Strange Land
Democracy is dead, replaced by Diktat

Capitalism is dead, replaced by Piracy

Privacy is dead, replaced by Big Daddy

Economy is Dead (a logaical consequence of the above)
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-29-06 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
6. Well the idea
Edited on Sun Jan-29-06 08:00 PM by NoMoreMyths
was founded on a contradiction. Founded on stealing, murder, and enslavement. All the while declaring freedom and independence for all.

America, whatever it is to anyone, could not have been without genocide and slavery. People were here already, and had to be eradicated, because they lived differently. People made a profit by simply stealing people from their region of birth, because they were the lesser race.

It took 120 years, but eventually that foundation stretched beyond the geography of the land. Now we span the globe with a military any empire would have killed to have. And they certainly gave it a shot. They were just in the wrong place, at the wrong time.

Just as America has been in the right place, at the right time. The global climate has been such that this land mass was able to thrive. We could have just as easily been a ice sheet during this entire time, but as luck would have it...

"Today, the nation that wanted to just exist to protect its own ideals has taken it upon itself to try and transform the rest of the world into an image of corporate aristocracy."

But as long as the nation was able to, it was going to expand. That's what power does. That was "progress" does. That's what civilization does. Nothing was going to stop that expansion. No law or regulation was going to stop it. No "true patriot" could stop such a force. It will only die if it collapses on its own(depletion of resources, natural life cycle, whatever anyone wishes to call it), or another power center crushes it.

America is the current culmination of every empire, every ship that ever sailed to lands unknown, every war ever fought, every political and economic system tried, every savage killed, every slave chained, every king crowned, every people fighting against power(most of which have died because of that fight).

To me, it's you, to answer your original question.
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-29-06 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. That has to be one of the best thought out answers to any question
answered on DU in the last five years.

And I whole heartedly agree with all your points.

America was founded on a paradigm of death and aggrssion in the misguided hope (or early lie) that it would lend itself to something different. It failed.

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. You can look at it that way--that American was founded on slavery and
extermination of the Indians, and has always been an imperial endeavor "of, for and by" the rich and the white--or you can look at it like this: although America's foundation was laid with slaves and slaughtered Indians, and has prospered due to the vast natural resources that the country appropriated to its use, there were nevertheless certain people with revolutionary vision who laid a foundation that favored civil rights and popular rule, and the people took them at their word, and eventually freed the slaves, and, throughout the 19th and 20th centuries, sought an increasingly more equitable society--with unions and collective bargaining, with a bustup of the railroad barons and a great populist movement in California (that spread east), with enfranchisement of women, with FDR's economic recovery program, with a post WW II commitment to international law, peaceful cooperation and human rights (the United Nations), with integration of black citizens into the armed services, and eventual integration of schools and all public agencies, with extensive movements in the 1960s toward greater equality for blacks, women, gays and other unequally treated groups, and with an impressive movement against unjust war that continued into the early 1980s and included popular sentiment against imperial aggression in Central/South America and other places. There were even efforts to acknowledge the genocide against the Native Americans and to compensate the remaining tribes with land and other assistance. The 1960's antiwar movement brought down two presidents and likely prevented the use of nuclear weapons against the Vietnamese people, but nevertheless failed to stop the slaughter of upwards of two million Vietnamese and southeast Asians, and failed to result in a dismantling of the offensive military-industrial war machine, created in WW II, that was bent on manufacturing more war. The latter was a fatal mistake.

Against this strong march of history toward greater equality and more populism--and against unjust war--the inevitable fascist elite (which had in truth sided with Hitler and the Nazis) began organizing in earnest in the 1970s to undo the vast social progress of the previous century and to appropriate all resources including the government's military machine toward creation of a new "Holy Roman Empire." This junta began with Reagan, and has culminated with Bush II and the effort of a distinct minority to, a) loot the country blind (possibly deliberately to create conditions for a Hitler to take power), and b) to undo every government support of social progress and equal rights, despite a huge majority (60%) in opposition to it (to be achieved by stolen elections, and more and more brazen power grabs).

So, we have two hundred years of social progress, and of increasing equality and popular rule--all based on certain ideas of the better Founders of the Republic ("all men are created equal," protection of free speech, separation of church and state, at least a limited enfranchisement of the popular majority, acknowledgment of human rights, etc.)--as opposed to twenty-five years of a concerted effort at retrenchment, which has assaulted each and every one of the pillars of democracy, some of it in devious ways (for instance, free speech curtailed by corporate news monopolies). 1776 to 1980 (the period of rocky but relentless progress), vs. 1980 to 2005 (a period of fascist retrenchment).

It's difficult not to see the "Roman" historical arc in all this--from an idealistic Republic, to a vast empire enforced by military rule and headed by a "Caesar" (i.e., dictator)--an empire that nevertheless had progressive notions of religious tolerance, education and learning, and some ideas of inclusiveness--to a seriously degraded "Holy Roman Empire" of one religion enforced by the sword.

But, in truth, history does not repeat itself. It is more like a gyre (William Butler Yeats' notion) with certain themes that keep repeating--that come back round every once in a while--whereby we achieve opportunities to improve, and even to consciously evolve, the human race.

In recent history, the great revolutions of the 18th and 19th centuries (the foundations of modern democracy) were followed by the "Ancien Regime"--a 20 to 30 year period of backsliding and retrenchment (partly in reaction to Napoleon, but not entirely). I think that this recent history is perhaps more relevant. Bush II may be reaching back to the 5th Century AD (i.e., that's what Howard Ahmanson's "Chalcedon" foundation is all about). But people just won't go there. The memory of freedom, equality, civil rights and responsive government is too fresh, and much, much too pervasive throughout the world. Look at the recent leftist/democratic revolutions in South America, for instance--the whole subcontinent has gone "blue." The world is going the other way from Bushism.*

What will happen here? I really don't know. But what sticks out to me is this 60/40 progressive American majority that persists, despite the relentless propaganda and fearmongering. The Bushi'ites simply do not have the base support to proceed with their plans. They might try to do it by force. I don't think they will succeed.

------------------

*(And it's interesting that ALL the democracy movements we see in the world today, to a great degree, derive from the ideas of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, both slaveholders--albeit, slaveholders who saw the need to end slavery but could not pull it off, politically. Slavery was endemic throughout the Americas. They were born into it. It is remarkable that they saw its evil, and imagined that it could be ended.)
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-29-06 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
8. I voted "Things haven't changed. Everything's great." But let me hasten
to qualify that. It was the only choice I could make, considering what I believe. But it was a tossup with "increase your Zoloft" dosage.

You see, I think people who get all down on the American people, and call them "sheeple" and all that, may be watching too much TV/war profiteering corporate monopoly news. Tom Yossarrian Joad says, for instance, "...it hurts to watch anymore..." Well, what are you watching?

That word "watching" makes me wonder. Maybe you're listening to radio, or reading newspapers, too. All the product of about 5 billionaire CEOs who monopolize nearly everything that you see, hear and read, and quite deliberately tailor it all to make you feel, 1) that you are a member of a minority, and 2) that you powerless to change anything.

Well, let me tell you something. You are not a member of a minority. You are in fact a member of a great progressive American MAJORITY. Read those words again. They are the truth. You only have to look at Bush's approval polls over the last year to know this. UNDER 40% nearly all year. Currently, 38%! But that's not the half of it. Disapproval of Bush goes way back. His approval was never strong--it had only one peak, just after 9/11--and has been, basically miserable all the rest of the time. His approval ratings before the election were so low that Zogby (the most reliable pollster) said he couldn't win. He had an unprecedented low of 49% on the very day of hs inauguration (unheard of), and has been sinking like the Titanic ever since. And the issue polls are even worse for Bush--in short, 60/40 anti-Bush on all issues, over a long period of time--going way back to 58% of the American people disapproving of the Iraq war, before the invasion, in Feb. 2003! And 63% of the American people disapproving to torture "under any circumstances" in May 2004. You name it. The Iraq war. Torture. Social Security. The deficit. Women's rights. Approximately 60% or MORE of Americans disagree with every major Bush policy. This 60/40 anti-Bush majority is also consistent with the Democratic Party's blowout 60/40 success in new voter registration in 2004.

This great progressive American MAJORITY has held its own--and has maintained its progressive values--despite relentless propaganda and fearmongering. 60%!

Why do you FEEL like "this nation has died"? Ask yourself that. Really. Why, instead, don't you think, "this nation has been DISENFRANCHISED"? Or, "this progressive majority has been systematically DISEMPOWERED"?

Well, I think how these five billionaire CEOs do it is this: They give a BIG TRUMPET to the rightwing minority--a minority that has always been with us--to promulgate their views way out of proportion to their numbers. The rightwing is no bigger than it ever was--about 30% of the population, with another 10% leaning that way on some issues--but their views get all the air time--and almost all the print inches as well, in the news monopoly publications. So you and I and all the other members of the great progressive majority get hammered, 24/7, with the relentless impression that WE are in the minority and that our fellow citizens have gone nuts.

This is very demoralizing and disempowering.

Add to this the rightwing nutcases who are counting our votes--two Bushite corporations with ties to the far rightwing Chalcedon Foundation (Diebold and ES&S), who counted 80% of the vote in 2004 with 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY programming code, on extremely hackable electronic voting machines, with virtually no audit/recount controls...

and...

...the war profiteering corporate news monopolies who then FALSIFIED their own exit polls (which Kerry won), late on election day 2004, on everybody's TV screens, to force them to 'FIT' the results of Diebold and ES&S's secret vote tabulation formulae (Bush won)...

and.

...a Democratic Party leadership which--for whatever reasons of corruption, complicity, ignorance or fear--have remained utterly silent about Bushite corporations counting our votes in secret...

..and you have a disempowered, demoralized, DISENFRANCHISED majority, who have no idea what hit them.

-----------

Disempowered, demoralized, disenfranchised, and cut off from your nation--from the vast majority of good and smart and patriotic people, like you, who reject this fascist junta and all its works--is exactly how the corporate news monopolies and their fascist friends in the White House want you to feel.

-----------

Thing's haven't changed.

Americans, in overwhelming numbers, still want peace and justice, and good government.

But everything isn't great.

The peace and justice and good government loving Americans--the vast majority of the people-- have succumbed to an ILLUSION that they are in the minority, and have become isolated and lonely, and depressed, while the government completely ignores them and their views, and does them great harm.







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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-29-06 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. You are very right in your assertions....
And thank you for such a well thought out and concise reply.

But I still stand by the feelings that the things that this country was founded upon are in their last death throes.

The ideas and virtues have been sold to the corporations that pay our politicians. Both Dem & Rep. IMHO.

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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
21. yes
to believe you are in the minority makes suppression easy.

excellent post as usual PP.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #8
23. Great post! nt
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
24. Wow.
:hug: I am with ya'!!! :bounce:
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-30-06 03:20 AM
Response to Original message
11. MINDLOCK pending.
Manipulator 1138 prefix THX, operating cell 94107, suffering severe drug violation. Extent pending. 1138 subject to immediate arrest. MINDLOCK pending.



1138 prefix THX charged with violation index 3278.927, appendix 445 to 613. Drug evasion, malicious sexual perversion, unconditional response and transgression. Justice proceed. Pontifex 606 presiding.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-30-06 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-30-06 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. kick
Tom Yossarian Joad said NOTHING offensive in his response to my post... what happened? :shrug:
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I think the graphic offended someone.
Edited on Tue Jan-31-06 07:05 PM by Tom Yossarian Joad
http://www.knology.net/~rareandfirsts/

Look at the pic called Whistle
It's a sideshow guy with Bush's face.

?
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. That's a great pic.
... and not offensive at all. :)



:D
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Thanks. I agree, but someone doesn't. Takes some of the steam
out of photoshopping for DU consumption to have it pulled like that.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Believe me, I can relate.
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. LOL! Love it....
And can't understand why that would be banned either.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. youse guys
are giving all milquetoasts the jimmy fits

(i love it)
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
22. I voted, "the idea of America died a long time ago."
But did it really?

In the Declaration, it says, "we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal...."

In hindsight, it's easy to see they meant, "all white males" are created equal.

Maybe even white male property owners.

It was never really an "equality" thing to begin with.
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Ka-Ching! Give the man a Kewpie doll! It's evolved back to
property owners with the caveat of LOTS of property.

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