NEGATIVE SAVINGS RATE for first time since Great Depression

[Atman]

Not a good sign. Just reported on CNN. Not a good sign at all.

[wtbymark]

1. so you put your money in the bank and they take some? nice.

[Atman]

4. Actually, it means people are withdrawing savings

...more than they're depositing. Because they're all fucking broke, that's why! Even Sosobad O'Brien pointed that out...real wages are going down, prices of everything are going up.

But the fed tried to spin in that it is because baby boomers are retiring and cashing in their savings, so it could be a good thing. Yeah, right.

[madrchsod]

5. ahhh --baby boomers are NOT retiring

i was born in 1947 and i`m still 6 years from retiring. so to say the bb`s are retiring is bullshit. "cashing in their savings" just what the hell does that mean?

[AngryOldDem]

27. The only thing baby boomers will be cashing in are their chips

"Retirement" as it is conventionally defined will not be known by those of us who were born at the end of the boom (1960-64). With downsizing and layoffs an almost daily concern for those of us who should be starting to look forward to our "golden years" (another joke), we'll be working for low wages and no benefits until we drop dead at our desks. Face it: It gets harder to reinvent yourself to meet workplace demands the deeper you get into your 40s, and there is no guarantee that any job will be readily available should you lose yours through no fault of your own.

A chorus of "Ain't We Got Fun," anybody?

[GrumpyGreg]

53. Four of my five kids were born in the years you mentioned---

and they feel the same way as you do.

All have bachelor's degrees and three have master's degrees and they aren't worth squat in this world we are living in.

I have one child who refused to go to college and got a union job-------guess which one of my 5 kids has the most security?

[Lasher]

36. Some boomers are retiring

I was born in 1949 and retired 2 years ago.

But the thing about retired boomers drawing out their retirement savings is at least partly fallacious. In my case, I took my retirement as a lump sum. I rolled that and all the rest of my savings into an IRA account. I've been living off that since I retired.

My goal, which is working so far, is to have my nest egg increase slightly each year so that I can reasonably hope to have something to pass on to my heirs when I croak at around 94 years old.

Investment earnings have exceeded withdrawals for the past 2 years, so wouldn't I be an example of a retired boomer who is saving more money than I am drawing out? Trust me, there's lots of retired boomers whose situation in this respect is the same.

[JDPriestly]

81. You are the exception.

Most people in the '40s generation don't have retirements to take in any form. They've been through the job mill, with one employer after the other and no security anywhere in the last years. My retirement savings have hardly grown at all since Bush took over.

[ProudDad]

106. You've got that right

I've been fucked over by Nixon's depression, raygun's depression, bush I's depression and bush II's depression. I've been laid off a dozen times in the last 41 years. I have quit a job only four times, twice to go directly to better jobs (from which I was subsequently laid off in 1966, laid off in '68 and 1969 - laid off in 70) in 1966 to move to California from flat-flat Florida, and 1988 (quit the "evil empire" to go freelance)! Laid off in '68, '70, '02, '05 and '05 (right, twice in '05 -- the 2nd one stiffed me for over $10,000 in pay).

That's the nature of this laissez-faire capitalist fascist country. The old concept of working for 35 years and then retiring with a pension was barely realized in my parent's generation (they are in their mid-80s) but certainly is impossible in my and succeeding generations.

Forget that shit and work for the revolution of the working class -- Dump the bosses off your backs!!!!

[klysz]

110. No, friend, I think YOU are the exception

Just because you've taken a few bad lumps, doesn't mean that ALL boomers are in the same boat. Yes, some are going to struggle in their golden years as they did through their entire lives, but that's life.

Retirement 'as we know it' is a new concept born of 20th Century progress and prosperity. Our great-grandparents didn't 'retire' they worked until the day they died.

Social Security was never meant to allow Seniors to live in the style they were accustomed to when they were working, it was designed as a safety net so Granny and Grampy wouldn't be put out on the street when they could no longer work.

The Miracles of Modern Medicine that keep us alive into our golden years cost money to develop and build. Medical care costs more because it's more involved than a mirror and stethoscope. Somebody has to pay for CAT Scan machine, it didn't grow on a tree for pete's sake. Somebody has to pay for the man hours to develop a life saving cancer treatment, it doesn't just appear out of thin air.

Necessity is the mother of invention, but being able to make a few bucks in the process is the engine that drives innovation. Profit is not evil. The Soviet Union proved that innovation stagnates in the absence of profit. Why bother spending months in a dark basement building a better mousetrap if it you can't improve the quality of your life by selling it others for more than it costs to make?

Everyone wants to live a better life, have a few extra bucks, drive a nicer car, but you have do more than 'put in your time' to get the rewards at the end of the day. We're not entitled to live in comfort when we get older simply because we made it to 65. If you don't plan ahead and make sacrifices when you're young (which many Boomers did not) you're not going to be able to live that Leisure World dream.

[JDPriestly]

114. I'm not complaining about profit.

I'm just wondering why my investments haven't shown any profit since 2001 (except a few gold stocks) and why interest rates are so low on my savings and so high on consumer credit cards. I have saved some money for retirement. You stated that your retirement savings are growing. Mine aren't although I have them in a number of different kinds of investments. That is what is worrying me.

I am probably a lot better off than many other people, yet I cannot see how in the world my husband and I will live on our savings and social security when we retire. The Bush "plan" for "saving" Social Security is to have private investment accounts. One reason his "plan" is so unpopular is that those of us who have bought into the 401(k), private investment ploy are finding that our money is not growing -- not enough really to keep up with inflation. As I said my investments are very diverse. I read in the LA Times that banks have been making profits of maybe 19% and oil companies are only a few points behind that. If the companies I am invested in are making profits like that, why doesn't the value of my stocks in their companies rise?

If you are young you can invest in high-risk investments. At my age, however, I have been encouraged to be conservative. That may be part of the problem. But, I think the real problem is that the wealthy who control the companies I invest in are taking the profits and leaving the little guys like me with only the illusion that we share, however small our share, in the ownership of the companies they own and control. They feel no obligation to share their earnings with the little suckers who buy small amounts of their stock or who invest through mutual funds. It's more than making a profit. It's being greedy and sneaky and cheating on small investors. That's the only way I can understand it.

[BigYawn]

100. I retired 7 years ago, and was petrified about my money running out

before I die. Luckily in the last 3 years my IRA's have gone
up twice as much as I spent for living expenses. So I guess,
I will have a few more years before going broke.

p.s. I retired early at 55.

[tsuki]

93. You and I may be the only BB's not retiring. My cousins are all

retired. This place is full of BB's and younger that are retired. Where did we go wrong? :shrug:

[AngryOldDem]

31. Here's the spin I just heard

"Americans are feeling wealthier so they're withdrawing their savings."

:wtf:

[Roland99]

38. In the form of home equity loans

ooof

[Greyhound]

61. Hey the California economy has been running on the increase in

home equity for the last 6 years or more. Obviously this can't keep up, eventualy the house is mortgaged to the hilt and it is payback time, when that happens on a large scale, look out, it will come crashing down fast. People will find themselves "upside down" to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[bush_is_wacko]

118. Sure! That makes a whole lot of sense. I must be an idiot for putting

AWAY money when times are good. I am one of the many currently withdrawing money from savings on a regular basis! I am doing it because we are freaking broke. We have always used cash for everything but I have had health issues that are keeping me from working since July. WE are trying to survive off one $15 an hour job as a family of 4! Not an easy task. Unfortunately, I may not even be able to find a freaking job if I get well enough to work. I have a good friend that was layed off 2 days before Christmas and has found nothing, nada, zilch since then! McDonald's is looking pretty good to both of us about now!

[LiberalEsto]

33. What savings?

I'm a boomer and have absolutely nothing for retirement except that fictitious "Social Security."

[raccoon]

44. Maybe they're withdrawing savings because a lot of them

are unemployed or have McJobs?

BTW,thanks for clarifying that.

[kayice]

77. Bush thinks all those people who lost their jobs after 25 or 30

years at various companies --Sprint, GM, Ford, Modine, Enron, on and on.......all managed to scoop up another job like the old one when their benefits ran out.....dope. THERE ARE NO GOOD JOBS LEFT!

Soon, there will be no middle class by the time Repukes are done. Filthy rich, rich, poor and dirt poor.

[SmokingJacket]

92. I know exactly one boomer who has retired...

He was born in 1945, and he only retired because he'd put in a certain number of years. He promptly got another job and cashed out nuthin.

The rest of them are still working away...

[Skidmore]

2. They will report this early morning and spend the rest of the day

talking about the booming stock market and following rich people around to see how they live.

Remember when you used to get credit on your taxes for saving money?

[koopie57]

9. My bets are on that

they will follow that up by how Clinton left us in this big economic mess that dim son had to mend.

[pitohui]

21. no i don't remember that

Remember when you used to get credit on your taxes for saving money?


that never happened, you always paid tax on your earnings from saving/investing money

at best before ronald reagan got his dirty hands on it, you were allowed to save $400 and not pay taxes on the tiny dribble of interest you'd be paid on that

but that's a far cry from getting credit on your taxes for saving money

unless you are talking about ira's, etc. in which case we still have ira's and the amount you can invest in them is higher than it has ever been in the past

if we gripe accurately, we have a better chance of being taken seriously

[JDPriestly]

82. The poster meant to say credit on your debts for spending money.

I bet. That is what we used to get tax relief for.

[pitohui]

86. well reagan killed that too

all hail the great god reagan (do i really need to use the :sarcasm: smiley)

[TheFarseer]

22. You did?

I guess I'm too young to remember that. I know you can get a credit for paying into a 401k or an IRA. And of course you get a lower rate for dividends and Cap Gains. Tell me more about the credit for saving. I demonstrated yesterday on another thread how you can actually lose money by getting $12 interest on a savings account.

[JDPriestly]

115. More accurately we deducted the money we paid for interest

on consumer debt like we can deduct the money we pay in interest on our homes. Ah, the good old days. I guess that deduction was meaningless to the extremely wealthy so Reagan took it away. And to think how many middle class people who he took that tax cut away from revere him, adore him and voted for him. What idiots.

[fasttense]

3. This has been out there for several months. Now they are reporting it like

it is news? Well, I guess since brush wants everyone to start their own Health savings account, it matters what most Americans are currently saving.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

6. They're just following BushCo's lead. Living on credit cards.

There's going to be a lot of unhappy people when China and Visa start calling in their loans.

[Thtwudbeme]

7. Kick and nominated for front page

this needs to be read by as many people as possible BEFORE the SOTU address tonight.

[no_hypocrisy]

8. *'s probable spin on this: People are INVESTING IN AMERICA!

Why let their money languish in a dusty ole savings account when they could be using that money in exciting ways like real estate or stocks.

[calico1]

11. Exactly!

If you aren't spending any money it means things are not very good, right? So if you are spending so much that you spend your paycheck before you even get it and spend more than your paycheck it means things are GREAT! It means you have a very positive outlook and that's good for the economy. The economy is just booming! :sarcasm:

[ComerPerro]

26. You say its sarcasm, but you nailed the Republican line of reasoning

[kurth]

13. Cash out refis and home equity lines of credit will fall

Consumer spending too. Big time bad news for everyone.

[Atman]

14. "Lost another one to Ditech" is going to take on a whole new meaning

Of course, the first mortgage holder will want their slice first. But the new bankruptcy laws will protect everyone, right?

:sarcasm:

[LiberalEsto]

34. We're investing in oil and gas companies, you mean

One way or another the money is ending up in the greedy paws of the oil and gas companies that are raking in record-shattering profits, while we're paying higher and higher prices for gasoline, fuel oil, and natural gas.

[benburch]

10. How do you think we DEFINE a Depression?

Welcome to it.

[SlipperySlope]

84. There is no modern definition of "Depression"

There is no modern definition of "Depression", the closest thing we have today is a "Recession". "Depression" is generally used by economists only to refer to one specific period in history.

[kurth]

12. People following the example of our conservative leadership in Washington

Spending like drunken whores and stuffing their pockets without a care in sight.

[JNelson6563]

15. Yep. Spend, spend, spend!!!!!!

Reminds me of: "Give no thought to the morrow...."

Julie

[Lone_Wolf]

16. Wages have stagnated and the price of everything has increased...

People are working more for less, the price of necessities (especially energy) have gone up. I'm sure many people are having to dip into their savings or having to pay by credit. This is not surprising considering that all of Bush's policies transfer wealth from the poor and middle class to the rich.

[jarnocan]

17. I really hope peope get a clue

For most of US things are not going so well! I am going to begin my new job as a day care teacher, and I know I will become even more aware-in so many ways-how tough it is for regular familes! My co-workers, clients etc. www.worldcantwait.net it all I have to say about US. a little hope....

[pecwae]

18. Yet * touts HSA's

as a form of health insurance. Good grief!

[Caoimhe]

23. I would love a tutorial on HSA's

My repuke boss has been salivating over them for years, devising ways to sell the plan to us. So far, he's not gotten much positive feedback, but mostly because people don't understand how they work. I'd love to know what I was talking about when I tell him they are bad for families, because it sure sounds like they are. They reward people who are never sick, penalize those with any health problems. Am I right?

[Lasher]

29. Their goal - END employer paid health care

I used to have access to an HSA. The problem with that one was, you had to spend all of your money in the HSA within 12 months after it was deposited - otherwise, you would forfeit the money. For this reason, very few employees participated in the program. I don't know if this rule applies to all currently available HSAs.

Here is an excellent DU thread about what repukes are REALLY up to, IMHO, with health care.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=210673

Note, HSAs are covered in the thread.

[LondonReign2]

39. No, HSAs and flexible spending accounts are two different things

Section 125 Flexible Spending accounts have been around since the 80's. They allow you to put pre-tax deductions into an account and then be reimbursed for health care expenses throughout the year such as co-pays, prescription costs, and even over-the-counter medications. They are actually a pretty good deal since you are not taxed on this money; the key is that you need to use it all within the plan year (actually under new regulations by March 15th)or you will forfeit any unused contributions.

Health Savings Accounts are another matter. They truly amount to another tax avoidance vehicle for the wealthy, since only the wealthy can afford to put money into these accounts and then pay medical expenses out-of-pocket, allowing these accounts to grow tax free. You are strictly limited as to how much you can put into these accounts, so one significant illness of injury will wipe out your entire account.

[Lasher]

42. Thanks for straightening me out on that

This helps explain the news story I saw recently, where Wall Street is slobbering over the prospect of benefitting from HSAs. This is another part of the overall scheme that I believe is described pretty accurately in the discussion thread that I furnished.

[ClintonTyree]

71. Yes, it's another scam for Wall Street......

same as bush's push for piratizing Social Security. Wall Street has hit a flat spot, there's not as much money going in anymore so in order for Corporate America to redistribute the wealth (steal your money) they have to invent new ways to get money into the system. The Stock Market has been in a lateral growth mode since bush's "presidency" and Corporate America is getting restless. bush keeps trying to introduce novel new ways for them to rob us, but gosh darn it, we're just not cooperating! :cry:
There's only so much shit you can sell in this world until it reaches a saturation point. That's why is was important to outsource American jobs so other countries could afford to buy shit too, but now that market is getting saturated......... I think you get the point.
Stagnation, a worldwide stagnant economy awaits us. The American consumer has carried the world economy on it's back for too long and can no longer sustain it. There's no money left in the bank and all the credit cards are maxed-out. Welcome to the second great depression, only this one will be world-wide.

[prolesunited]

41. Yes, I guess I should take more personal responsibility

for my allergies and asthma. (Which I developed as an adult because of the high levels of pollution I have been exposed to in my area of the country, as my doctor said.)

[maxrandb]

55. Well

He must be a "liberal Democrat" doctor.

:sarcasm:

[prolesunited]

65. Actually, he is

You should see the bumper stickers on his car, and he marched in war protests in Chicago. Needless to say, he gets in a lot of disagreements with other doctors. But, Jason and I are among his favorite patients. :D

[Caoimhe]

89. I found this on Think Progress, re: HSAs

President Bush will use tomorrow’s State of the Union address to promote “health savings accounts” as a solution to America’s health care crisis. Multiple studies have shown that HSAs are likely to increase the number of uninsured and increase health care costs, all while costing taxpayers tens of billions of dollars. In other words, President Bush is proposing to do for health care what he’s already tried with Social Security — placing more of the cost burden on individuals, while making the system more attractive to the wealthy but less effective for ordinary Americans who need health coverage most.

WHAT ARE HEALTH SAVINGS ACCOUNTS?: Generally speaking, they are tax-free savings accounts combined with high-deductible insurance policies that people obtain through their employers or buy independently from insurance companies.

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/01/30/the-truth-about-health-savings-accounts/

I feel sick to my stomach thinking about this criminal-in-chief and his anti-American, anti-family, anti-worker, anti-woman, anti-poor schemes to line his own (and his wealthy friends) fucking pockets!

[robbedvoter]

19. All this blind hatred for W is baad! Go work hard in November, you bum!

:sarcasm:

[pitohui]

20. and yet they've been saying this for years

i guess i'm skeptical, i've been hearing that americans have a negative savings rate since at least the 1980s

they cook the books, did you know that your stock and real estate holdings are not included in your savings in many such reports?

c'mon, the equity americans own in their homes and their stock from their job is probably the greatest portion of their net worth unless they chose the right parents and just inherited what they have

[skids]

95. Umm, no they haven't.

If you bother to read, this is the first time it's happened since the great depression.

If you can't be bothered to read, perhaps this will help:

[oc2002]

24. if there is a run on the banks, the Government is BROKE!

That FDIC is not worth a shit.

[Luke Nichols]

25. Status Quo Destroyed

Rock the Vote!
Status Quo Destroyed!

http://statusquodestroyed.no-ip.org/rockme/rock.html

Luke Nichols
Princeton, West Virginia

[katinmn]

28. And Junior wants us to set up self-funded health accounts

and put money away for retirement, and absorb rising food, gas, home heating and tuition costs.

The future looks bright, doesn't it?

[Southsideirish]

35. But you forget - we will OWN our accounts! Won't that be great??

[JDPriestly]

83. I OWN my relative poverty, and I probably always will.

Does that make me happy? No, even though I'm the first to admit that money isn't everything.

[Democrats_win]

30. Bu$h tax-cut plan's purpose: to increase savings. Another failure.

According to "Neoconomy" by Daniel Altman, "Bush’s tax cuts, which were billed as a quick fix to overcome recession, serve goals driven by so-called neoconservatives: eliminating taxes on inherited wealth, investments and corporations....So the Bush tax agenda isn't just about cutting taxes; it's also about promoting saving."

(These quotes are from Amazon which quotes Publisher's Weekly and the Washington post)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00076F09I/qid=1138727327/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-3144762-0834306?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

[oc2002]

32. its not on the cnn web site, or can not find it.

nt

[Roland99]

37. But...but...but....

We're spreading freedom and democracy!

Stock markets are booming!

GDP is thriving!



WHHHEEEEEEE!!!!!!!

[ClintonTyree]

72. Actually, the Stock Markets are not booming.........

they've been pretty much in a lateral pattern since bush took office.

[kayice]

79. But Bush based his S.S. plan and now his personal Health care plans..

on those pre 9/11 stock patterns, not post 9/11. When Rove spouted off about pre/post 9/11, their little personal plans of SS (and now Healthcare) was the first thing I thought of, nothing but their best spin, as usual.

[xchrom]

40. republicans don't want you to ''save'' your money anyway.

they want you to ''invest'' it.

gamble with it.

there's nothing wrong with investing if it's not an either or situation.

that's not an option for too many.

look at what's happening to health insurance deductables -- for many it's a grand.
that's a huge amount.

they keep printing money into the debt and deficit -- so wages stagnate or decline and what you do make is worth less.

and there can be no discussion about why ''globalism'' is bad for our economy -- there is only a monologue.

[fairandunbalanced]

43. negative for normal people

For the 1% that own everything now and have done their very best to get rid of the middle class so they can have slaves, its the time of their lives! All the wealthiest people in America have gotten 100% richer thanks to Bush and friends!
So to sum it up the american dream is to stomp on everyone and everything around you so that you can have it all! Or just win the lotto so you can go sit around and do nothing for society but consume. The wealthiest people in society consume way more of everything of course. Its totally because they deserve it! We where not created equal, we are created to work for god(bush+cheney) to fight the terrorist(ourselves) and have not health care or a job that will pay enough to have a savings.

I love it, its total greed and total inequality! Must be time for a Bush black history month speech, because Bush is a cowboy that cares about everyone, but mostly blacks :)

[sweetbriarose]

45. We Are Living Atlas Shrugged

And It's Every Bit As Depressing As the Book. I live in a proud med. sized town (Farmington Missouri). People here are trying the best they can. Taking 2nd and 3rd jobs to keep up with the rate increases in electric (40%) and natural gas (50%). Saw a boy walking down the street today on his way to the highschool. Every other school year this boy has dressed very nice. This year he is wearing cheap Walmart sneakers. His shoes are so runover on the sides that he looks like a cripple when he walks. I know his parents and they are proud people. They are working the same jobs as last year. If they had the money I know for a fact the first thing they would do is throw-out those shoes and buy him a good pair.
That's just one example. I observe people doing without the basics everywhere I go.
People are worried. They are sick inside. They hate Bush and Gang. They live on pins and needles. Half afraid to turn on the news when they wake up each morning. When the town-siren sounds people stop to listen to what the speaker voice will say. Used to noone paid much mind.
Heard one mom say the other day that she is so thankful that breakfast is free at school this year and that though she doesn't qualify for free or reduced lunches the price she pays is still cheaper than feeding them lunch at home. She also remarked on how much her grocery bill is going to increase come summer. "Can't feed kids hotdogs everyday". she said "It's not good for them...not all".
Everyone's feeling frayed and ill. Not just here. Everywhere.
At this moment I am listening to Rush on the radio. He's laughing at the people who will be banging pots and pans outside the capital tonight.
Laugh on Rush. You clueless idiot.
Think you're so smart? Then answer me this?
WHO IS JOHN GALT?
We know...do you?

[ClintonTyree]

76. How many of those same people.........

voted for bush though, because he was going to "keep them safe"? Because those damned "LIEberals" just want to turn everyone gay, and force abortions on people. They want to swell the welfare rolls so minorities can live "the good life" on public assistance and raise everyone else's taxes, not to mention outlaw god in public places!
Many of them voted for bush, you know it as well as I do.
What do we have to do to reach these people? What do we have to tell them, to convince them that it is the DEMOCRATS who are on their side, that it's the Democrats that CARE about working people?
I guess if any of us had the answer to that question we wouldn't be having this discussion. I really wish I knew, I really wish there were some magic words that would convince people that the Republicans are dangerous to our country's present and future. The Republican lie machine is too well oiled (with money), too visible (due to the "liberal" media) and too vocal (Limbaugh, Savage, O'Reilly, Hannity etc.). We can't be heard or seen above the lies and this country is dying because of it.

Edited to welcome you to DU! :hi: Good to have you here! ;)

[sweetbriarose]

91. Good To Be Here Friend- Thanks

Instinct is telling me you are a rose among the dandelions.
Most of those who voted for Bush here were either church people or just average family men who don't go to church(40ish and up). It was the women (this time) who were the smart ones and realized that Bush would not be responsible to his voters. Kerry was a big hit here and still is.
During the last weeks of his campaign I wrote him a few times and pleaded with him to not give up on Missouri. All it would have taken was a few more visits to bigger towns (not cities) and I'm confident the state would have voted his way. But oh well...water under the bridge.
Wish I knew those magic words too.
Guess all those people who were so afraid of big goverment are getting what they deserve. If the Republicans were a flower they would be a black rose.
I don't know why more people can't see that it is the Democrat party in which real beauty grows.
How can so many turn the other way and ignore the pain of those around them?
Just this afternoon my little 3rd grader came home from school and said that one of his friends on another street isn't going to school tomorrow. Know why? A project is do. His mom can't afford the stuff to make it. Not even the glue. The project is a house that either looks, tastes or feels good. Something that would make a bad pig (not wolf) want to be good.
Told my husband about it. Know what he said? "Not my problem". "I'm sure they have something around they can make it with". BULL!!!! Those people had an over-inflated electric bill that had to pay this week. Just like us.
Mark my word
That boy will go to school tomorrow!!!
Carrying the best looking and/or tasting house of all!!!
For Christs sake...WTF IS SO GOD AWFUL ABOUT LENDING A HELPING HAND!!!
Ain't no big deal...ain't nothing to it.
GOD I HATE GREEDY INDIFFERENT PEOPLE!!!
AND MOST OF THEM ARE REPUKES!!!

[earth mom]

107. Great Post! Welcome to DU!

:hi:

Your post struck a chord with me, as our family has been living paycheck to paycheck for many years now. I well know what it's like to have the well worn shoes... for the entire family that is.

Maybe I'm idealistic, but growing up, I always thought that by my mid 40s, life would start getting easier and there would be plenty of money for savings, a bit of travel, and most important of all, some piece of mind. I am beyond furious with the rethugs for what they have STOLEN from my family and from all of us. It is a class war and they are fast destroying the middle class and our hopes of having any quality of life! :grr: :cry:

(BTW-I love roses- wanted to change my DU name to one that had the word Roses in it, but can't change names around here without starting out from scratch with zero posts.)

[sweetbriarose]

111. Beyond Furious Too

I feel for you so much. We are both in the same boat. I have always tried so hard to think of a creative idea that would improve our quality life. Lately I've gotten to the point where a nesting instinct has set in and nothing else matters. I am filling the basement with all kinds of basic things that will help us substain when things get worse. "Savings, travel and piece of mind". Just a Pipe Dream now, huh? Oh well, at least we still have our souls...and don't our children have such sweet and unspoiled eyes? It is so obvious to tell what God thinks of money by the kind of people that he has (so-called) blessed with it. Agree?

TheGoldenRule...Great hook. Love it.

[earth mom]

113. Thanks!

I so hear you about what God must think of money. Odd too, how the religious right can't recognize how their blind pursuit of it-money-is poisoning their very souls! That's why I picked my DU name as a sort of knee jerk reaction after the 04 "selection" when the the religious right claimed that the election was won on "moral values". :eyes: Their stance triggered an extreme reaction in me and I refuse to put up with their judgmental attitudes, anger and hatred towards anyone who is the least bit different than themselves!

IMNSHO-Living by the Golden Rule and treating others as you want to be treated works a heckuva lot better than judging or imposing "morals" on others! :grr: Oh, I'm certainly no saint, but I don't and never would go out of my way to hurt anyone intentionally as so many of the rethugs do. Though I can and will fight back whenever any of 'em lobby the first round! That's the Irish in me I guess! LOL! :D

[Doctor_J]

117. And they'll all be voting GOP this fall

and are probably blaming Clinton for their predicament. If they are hurting, we can help them. If they're ignorant, they're beyond help.

[realFedUp]

46. and how do people afford Health Savings Accounts?

You have to first buy a high deductible health
policy, then put your money into a savings
account to be used to pay for medical coverage
you don't get with that health plan and for
the deductible that you have to pay first....
And the tax deduction won't help those under
a certain tax bracket.

So when people can't afford health insurance
in the first place and can barely afford life's
necessities....

[Jeffersons Ghost]

47. good post real feed up

good OP too! :kick: bad news for the dictator is good new to us!

[Sammy Pepys]

48. I'm proud to say I'm not part of the problem...

A save/invest a third of my monthly paycheck, as does my wife.

[Outlier]

50. lucky

Must be nice to only need two thirds of your income to live on.

[Sammy Pepys]

51. That's by design....

When I was unemployed for two months and underemployed for additional six three years ago, I figured out that most of the things one spends money on are optional. It also helps that my wife is one of the most fanatical pennypinchers on Earth.

[skids]

52. Does your wife have a sister?

:-)

[Sammy Pepys]

58. hahaha...sorry

3 brothers. :)

[Viva_La_Revolution]

63. Really? are they single? cute?

:rofl:

[Lars39]

60. You're also fortunate in that neither of you have had a medical crisis

that would wipe out those savings in a new york minute.

[Sammy Pepys]

64. It's covered.....n/t

...

[Lars39]

68. I wracked up over $250,000 in medical bills in a short period of time.

I doubt that you are as safe as you think.

[Sammy Pepys]

70. I've got that covered...

...with room to spare.

[Lars39]

73. Good, you've got plenty of time to work for justice for the rest of us.

[Sammy Pepys]

74. That's exactly why I put such a premium on keeping things in order...

..it frees me up to worry about things like this.

[Outlier]

62. Good for you....

So I can assume you didn't go out shopping after 9/11, like our fearless leader asked.

[Sammy Pepys]

66. Hahahah....

I probably did....I didn't get my "wake up call" until the middle of 2002. I was rollin' fat and happy and saving about a tenth of what I am now on a monthly basis.

The other thing that helped was getting married and using more public transportation.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

59. It's a shame ALL savings are being spent

Including yours sammy... As Ntl Debt and fuel goes up the value of your savings goes down... That is unless your in the top 3% and change it to gold before you try saving money.

[Sammy Pepys]

69. I've been very lucky, but....

I've stuck with tried and true concepts (buy and hold, dollar cost averaging, diversification) and enjoyed good returns because of it. Rather than giving all my money to a petro concern to fuel my car, I started using it less and walking or using public transportation more.

And if all this saving is for naught, well then them's the breaks and I'll end up where I would've been if I hadn't saved at all. But if it's not....

[preciousdove]

99. Did you see the B of A post where DHS tells you what you can take

from your bank accounts, safe deposti box in the event of any emergency? Bank of America just completed nationwide training for their employees on how to handle customers when this occurs.

[Lorien]

49. Hey, I'm in that club! I had $80,000 in my savings during Clinton's

administration, now I've got -$22,000. five years of repugs will do that to you if you are middle class and have a genetic illness.

[stepnw1f]

54. We Will Be Seeing Public Animosity

toward those with money, never seen before. Karma works in mysterious ways.

[madmark]

56. The housing value spike has spiked housing costs; couple that

with massive gas price spikes and the thin margins people were already on and its easy to see how the savings rate went negative. The margins will continue to be pressured from third world labor competition (outsourcing and imports). While housing appreciation is trumpeted in the media as a good thing I think this its real result; large capital flows in housing assets is not a good thing.

[slor]

57. GREAT NEWS!

What? Is it not payment enough to enjoy watching the rich get richer? Who needs to save when we have that?

[Neil Lisst]

67. Negative savings means spending on credit far exceeds savings.

Sound familiar? Oh yeah, the federal government under Bush.

This country is tapped out on debt. For the past five years, consumers have been sucking down on their home equities, and now everything is leveraged to the max.

We have a bad recession coming.

[ClintonTyree]

78. A page right out of the Reagan playbook.........

"pay as you go Democrats" versus "cut taxes and spend like a drunken sailor Republicans". Which is more fiscally responsible? :shrug:
I think the answer to that is pretty easy. bush's daddy was right about one thing, trickle down economics = voodoo economics. It hasn't worked yet and it never will. It won't stop the Republicans from trying it again and again though. Those "tax cuts" always sound real good to an uninformed, greedy electorate.

[Neil Lisst]

80. Largest deficits in history: Bush II, Reagan, Bush I.

Last two presidents to balance the budget = Carter and Clinton.

And yet, the right goes on and on about fiscal responsibility as if they represent it.

[Junkdrawer]

75. Translation: When this 'spend money you don't have' boom crashes...

it will be a BIG crash.

[SlipperySlope]

85. Only the mathematically illiterate would save today

Consider that the rate of inflation is higher than the tax-adjusted interest rate in most savings accounts.

That means that every dollar that you put into savings actually looses purchasing power while it sits there. You're better off spending it on something now.

[Iowa]

98. Nah...

That's not true. In this day and age, probably more than any time in the last century, it's a good idea to accumulate some assets if you possibly can. The alternative is to depend entirely upon the whims of one's employer.

Some advice to younger DUers from an old codger who saved, invested, and accumulated enough to retire in my early 50s, yet never earned more than the salary of a school teacher:

-- Spend less than you earn just as soon as your are able to do so.
-- Reject consumerism.
-- Educate yourself about investing - start by reading "Personal Finance for Dummies" by Eric Tyson and "Your Money or your Life" by Vicki Robin. There are many excellent books on the subject.
-- Invest in things with fluctuating prices (things like real estate, stocks, and bonds). Savings accounts are NOT investments and never have been.
-- Buy when prices are low and everyone else is running for the exits; hang in there for the long term.

Don't buy into the thinking that financial freedom isn't possible for the little guy. It is.

[BigYawn]

102. Hey Iowa you and I are brudders from the udder mudders

I followed all the steps you outlined and retired at 57,
and after 7 years have more money than when I retired!

And I never made much more than a teachers salary.

[BigYawn]

103. Well I did make a little more than a teacher but not by much,

and saved and scrimped and invested regularly in the
stock market and was able to retire at 57. So your plan
does work for even a middle income family.

[Iowa]

108. Hi BigYawn!

Yep, I'm in the same boat. For us it took about 13 years to go from just a couple of $10,000 CDs to having enough for retirement. I earned about the equivalent of a teacher and my wife earned less than half that - we raised three kids - one with major health problems that persisted for 20 years. Never lived high, but we've had a terrific life so far - some luck and some planning. We encountered the same thing you did - we have more now than at retirement, and could take a pretty big hit and still be in great shape.

I'll never regret the day I decided to learn the ropes of personal finance. It was the second best decision I ever made (marrying my wife was the best).

[Just Me]

87. So, we're broke,...worse than broke,..."officially". Right?

The majority of Americans are struggling to survive and can't create a nest egg, anymore. People may have to start stealing wood to keep warm. Well, there's already millions of people like that. Now, there's gonna be more because "pissing-on-the-people-economics" ALWAYS exacerbates the problem.

Honestly, I think the only sustaining this country's economy is pure delusion. I do.

[cornermouse]

88. I'm waiting for the stock market crash.

I'm sure its lurking somewhere in the background even now.

[BigYawn]

104. Stock market is undervalued by a factor of 2.5 compared to

at the 2000 pre-crash prices, based on price/earnings ratios.

So a crash is NOT imminent.

[cornermouse]

109. They're "fattening the steer" in a manner of speaking.

[BigYawn]

119. Don't believe that....markets look quite healthy,

expect a 8% increase in SPX during 2006.

[Atman]

121. The markets only help the rich gamblers

Sure, you have some 401k money and some mutual fund money in the markets, but the market isn't for us peons. It's a big casino for the corporatists. The market is a meaningless indicator of the way REAL Americans are doing these days. It only tells us how Bush's base is doing.

[Historic NY]

90. I'm a professed saver..............

yeah I know I'm running against the norm. Damn good thing since I've had to draw on it this past year as I still await disability and disability pension. They keep jerking me around and thankfully I had a nest egg to draw on. I brought a large check to the bank last Thursday and they finally bumped my interest up to 4.01% on savings. Its only for 6 months so perhaps I still will take my money and move it elsewhere. I love to threaten them with it.
It makes me feel good to know my credit union will match and beat them every day.

I've heard say its time to buy silver again.........hummmmmm....

[BigYawn]

105. gold and silver have doubled in the last couple of years, so

it may be a little late, but they could go higher.
Truth is no one knows for sure.

[ThoughtCriminal]

94. They're counting on the Rapture

Before the Meltdown. Faith based retirement.

[Jim Sagle]

96. Ruh roh.

[fooj]

97. Hey...just in time for our Health Care Savings Plan!

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr...

Peace.

[BigYawn]

101. Although total value of all houses and all stocks have increased

by several TRILLION dollars in the last three years, so
I guess the "have's" are doing just fine.

[Hidden Stillness]

112. Not Personal Anymore--The Family Debt Crisis is National Now

Everything that happens now is a sign, and every indicator will lead to further indicators of the total, calamitous slide. Anyone paying any attention to general social trends might have noticed how disastrous the big-business-centered, deregulating policies of concervatism are, long ago, just by noticing over the years what happens to industries that are deregulated--they go bankrupt and die. As a matter of fact, when Pres. Carter, an economic conservative (which was why the economy suffered), started deregulating industries, I noticed that you could use as a rule of thumb, which industries were deregulated, by which ones were dead or dying--trucking industry, airlines, etc. Gearing government policy to corporations and their profit, rather than the modest well-being of citizens, does not work.

If you Google...negative savings depression...you can read several articles on this problem (and also learn that most of them used the same source, from a Martin Crutsinger, containing some of the most stupid misunderstandings of "the little people" I have ever read). This is the only time the national savings rate has been negative--spending more than taking in--other than 1932 and 1933, the worst of the Depression. Bizarrely, the "economists" who run things now have been using that statistic as a "reason" why the economy is "doing well"! "Consumer spending" (regardless of reason, or on what) is considered "overall economic growth" that raises the Gross Domestic Product--so Republicans have been using this disastrous situation to claim that the economy is good! "Strangely," they go the other way on the Federal Reserve's "price gauge," that might have told us how the American people are being gouged to death. For that "measure," they exclude food and energy costs! So everything is rosy! (Like Reagan, who introduced the system of counting people who work only one hour a week, as "fully employed," and counting members of the armed services as among the employment rate, to artifically boost it. Prick liar.)

Because the media is the mouthpiece for big business nowadays, and not the reporters of the press anymore, they fuck around with "explanations" of these things, to deflect anger from the corporations and rich Republicans who caused this; everything is strategy and positioning now. These articles actually have a part where they claim, (unlike the Great Depression), "This time the reasons for the negative savings rate are vastly different." They claim people are digging themselves into increasing debt "because they feel wealthier because of the soaring value of their homes," they claim with no evidence and no reference. It is not only creepy, it is scary. Now the only obligation the media feels, as this country unravels all the laws that once protected us and returns to Depression, is to their corporate sponsors, and so they lie... The reasons for poverty and debt do not CHANGE, asshole, but the reasons for propaganda do.

I was able to pay my bills and expenses, and make a little headway on my credit card debt, until a few months ago, and the largest profit for the gas-and-oil industries in the history of the world, which they achieved by cutting our throats. Now, I also do not have any more savings, and I fear--with that withering dread of someone barely hanging on now--any emergency of any kind. It is not "inflation" that is killing us, is it straightforward, unregulated price-gouging, which no one will stop. We do not have enough money, anymore, to pay for all these skyrocketing bills and prices, fees for things that never used to have fees, and all the rest of the Capitalists' Dream.

(By the way, to sweetbriarose, replies # 45 and 91--fabulous posts! This is what Democrats are!)

[sweetbriarose]

120. From The Heart

Clicked on this one because your subject title made me feel like crying and the name that went with it so VERY beautiful. Hung on every word. All the while thinking to myself "WHY? is this gifted writer of such high intelligence suffering when he/she should be wealthy". Then it hit me...because you search for the truth and not happiness. When I saw you had spoke directly, I knew I must reply and tell you this...I think there is somewhere should go...something you are meant to do.
You are a writer. A real humanitarian! God...you so remind me of my brother. A Cornell graduate and scientist who shed the Capitalist Dream and is now an expatriate in Guatemala. Our father says my dear brother wasted his life. Could have done so much good right here in his own country. I feel there is no way the system would have let him accomplish even a tenth of what has accomplished there.
He began with speaking out for the poor and ill in his newspaper. Now he owns a publishing company there and has helped save so many lives through his organization HIV medicines for Guatemala.

Know you...Know what you are.
You can't rest...can't enjoy...because people are suffering here and there and everywhere.


Know you will soon make a difference someday soon because of who you are!
Best of Luck!

Wish I was smart enough to take on the world...just average though :(

[Hidden Stillness]

122. Thank You for That Wonderful Reply, and, Hi, sweetbriarose!

Thank you so much for that beautiful reply, and I think you have summed up what my situation is, what my attitude is. I enjoyed reading about your brother; it reminds me that there are many good people out there who also hate this vile corporate system that our country has now become; but of course, you never hear about them on THEIR media. I think that I would like to write a play, for example, and then I think of all the changes a producer would make to it, to cut out all criticism of the corporate world and its practices--which would kill my whole message and replace it with theirs, or on the other hand, I think of all the writer's work going to profits for THEM, and it kills it. I do not want to advance their interests. Sometimes I think I would like to be some kind of a writer for the Democratic Party, but the current Party is so "D"LC, that I think they would be not only uninterested but actively hostile to a real, actual (middle class, non-corporate) human being like me.

Writing here on DU for the months that I have been here--almost a year, I think--has improved my writing, as you really have to think about your statements, and clarify them. It is like writing a newspaper column, and people really are reading it. I am grateful for this ongoing experience, which has not only helped my writing, but strengthened my beliefs.

The longer this current, corporate-controlled era goes on, the more I get a sense of them, and what they are doing to us all, as just pure evil--deliberate, knowing, even playing it as a game; evil. When you think about it, start to put the pieces together, and grasp the larger pattern--the grand scale of these incidents--I sometimes think of the whole thing as from very far away, a whole world of abuses and oppression by rich people and corporations, against those who can't fight back. How evil these rich people are, that they would use their already prodigious resources, just to organize themselves with lawyers and ad campaigns, consultants, lobbyists--all the prolonged, sustained effort that all this takes--just to unravel and destroy every little bit of progress that any non-rich group of people were able to make over this entire century...All the protections for workers, consumers, victims of violent crime, women's rights, older people, poor people and their desperation--and these rich people amass all their resources as a coordinated group to KILL all of it. Evil.

The whole scale of this corporate economy--only a few huge corporations owning everything, no culture anymore, only products for the entire global market; loud, vulgar, no memory, no need for thinking, only looking and listening; the very structure of society manipulated, then erased, for the unimpeded sales of the corporate giant. Everything for them, nothing for us; we aren't even citizens here anymore, and there is no public forum, only an endless loop of commercial propaganda, from the closed-circuit that the media has become. All too large-scale for me--I hate it, and I feel only the complete loss of the "small-scale, local" sense of things, of some kind of life that can be lived on the human level, where it is not global-all-at-once overwhelming, and all to THEIR ends.

I do not, however, feel hopeless--on the contrary,with all the recent activity here on DU over Alito, etc., (even though the official Democratic Party fucked up the chance to stop this; again), I feel more focused, and my understanding of the larger trends of things are clearer. You can feel the shift in society, here on DU, etc.--middle class people are getting fed up and unable to take these corporate/Republican abuses anymore, and if Democrats would just stop "framing" and consulting, and address themselves to us again, we could be the Democratic Party again. This is a highly intelligent website generally, so it is worth explaining things here. There are a lot of really good writers here, sweetbriarose, and you are one of them--and we are all, every one of us, needed, to make the true America again.

[bush_is_wacko]

116. I can relate! We are not going to last much longer!

The only hope is a modest tax return and THAT won't last us through the year. Hopefully if we need to sell the house the market will be decent enough for us to have some savings again! @#$%^&*!

Not that this is a good thing but it means I have plenty of company in my misery!