Why Jesus is Important & Republicans Don't Fear Hell (A Theory)

[IdaBriggs]

Jesus is forgiving and merciful.

Beat up a gay man, say you are sorry, and you are still going to heaven.

Rape your wife, say you are sorry, and you are still going to heaven.

Starve some children, bomb some villages, rob from the poor -- say you are sorry, and you are still going to heaven.

Even better, you can actually "repent" and "regret" your crimes (because it is "more" than just "saying" you are sorry, of course), and you are still going to heaven.

All of your selfish, horrible, evil acts can be wiped away by the "blood of the lamb" AND YOU DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE TO CHANGE. In fact, you can do the same thing again THE VERY NEXT DAY, and you still get an automatic free pass to heaven.

After all, if GOD wanted you to change, he wouldn't automatically FORGIVE YOU, right?

Republican Christianity doesn't require a lot of effort -- no feeding the homeless, helping the sick, or any of those other "crazy" liberal ideas. Just "free forgiveness" with no consequences, and a whole lot of smug self-righteous fervor.

Its a theory, anyway. Thoughts?

[BOSSHOG]

1. A former coworker of mine

told me he knew he was going to heaven because he was born again. Prior to his being "saved" he was a drunken, cussing sot. On wife number three; he had the morals of an alley cat and the work ethic of limbaugh. Before and after his rebirth he did absolutely nothing in a charitable fashion. And he totally adores george bush. I'm not so sure you are passing on a "theory." Its fairly easy to differentiate between christians and "christian conservatives." I like a bumper sticker I saw recently:

DON'T TELL ME YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN, LET ME FIGURE IT OUT FOR MYSELF.

[Ishoutandscream2]

5. "The work ethic of Limbaugh" LOL

Boss, you have a wonderful way with words.

[Cats Against Frist]

7. The three most ridiculous words: "I was saved."

Nothing will draw a cackle from my gut more than when I hear someone say that. It's one thing to be spiritual, and it's one thing to believe in the Jesus myth -- neither of which I believe in -- but to utter some absurd Evangelical creed and consider oneself "saved" is the epitome of self-congratulations, vanity, delusion and brainwashing.

[Arugula Latte]

24. It's like when you're a kid playing tag -- you touch "Base!" and you're

home free -- same mentality. As long as you get your hand on the designated item and yell "Base!" you're all set.

Born Agains have the mentality of four-year-olds, IMO.

[kineneb]

33. saved...like green stamps or coupons?

(sorry about the green stamps, I am dating myself...)

:sarcasm:

Step right up, here ya' go, your get into Heaven free coupon! Just "save" it for later when you need it.

[raccoon]

41. IME, most people who say they are "saved"

think they're superior to you if you're not "saved."

[Jeffersons Ghost]

49. JESUS TAUGHT

DOCTOR HEAL THYSELF... ALSO, HE SAID BEFORE YOU TRY REMOVING A SPECK FROM THE EYE OF ANOTHER GET THE BEAM OUT OF YOUR OWN EYE!

If they dare to ask me if I'm born again, I say "ARE YOU BORN AGAIN, TODAY? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO IMPROVE YOURSELF AS A CHRISTIAN IN THE LAST HOUR? HOW HAVE YOU SERVED GOD IN THE LAST MINUTE? WHAT DID JESUS TEACH US ABOUT JUDGING ME OR OTHERS?

BY THE WAY, YOU'RE RIGHT ABOUT PEOPLE WHO GENERALLY ASK THAT... JESUS ALSO TAUGHT HUMILITY AS DID BUDDHA AND CONFUCIUS

BTW I TOTALLY agree with the OP... but i hope the rest of you true blues are smart enough not to insult the voters we will need in Nov... There will be PLENTY of freepers on this board to make us look bad in that way.

[Katherine Brengle]

101. I used to tell them I was so they would leave me alone.......

I used to go to a Christian Fellowship meeting every week at my college--a kind of "see how the other half lives"/"must do something other than drink" freshman year social experiment.

They were generally really nice people, although we never got into politics, but always, "Have you been saved?"

After awhile, I just started saying yes, because after that they usually leave well enough alone.

I think a lot of them don't really know what it means, maybe they just feel a sense of release upon uttering the words, a way of letting go of the utter darkness of reality and live on to the next day...

Or maybe they're insane.

Who knows?

[BoneDaddy]

52. I have always found it interesting...

that a good number of "born again" fucknuts led extremely destructive, violent, drunken, addicted, illegal, immoral, lives for 30-40 years and then find Jesus and then tell everyone else what to do. They are the biggest hypocrites I know. And not much has changed, they have simply re-directed all that negative power into their hate filled religiousity, except this time they think they are justified and correct.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

71. you're exactly right

while I'm not good enough at Christianity yet to save or judge another, there are far too many Cashtain born again "fucknuts" running around giving my religion a bad name... I try hard to forgive them but I just can't do it yet... I'll tell you this, these Cashtains better find something better than money to worship because Greenspan is gone and their god is losing it's worth faster than a Divine lightning bolt.

[mwb970]

72. I had a born-again co-worker too.

He was the biggest jerk in the office. Super arrogant, treated everyone like crap. Parrotted Limbaugh talking points all day. Loved guns and NASCAR too.

These people think they're better than we are but they're not. They're worse, much much worse.

[Lars39]

2. Hell is a tool for Republicans.

Hell is what you try to recreate to control people with.
Hell is for other people because other people aren't in control.

[Debau2005]

3. So it is like I thought

we are in hell now!

[Lars39]

8. If you create conditions that equal a "hell on earth",

the perfections of heaven can appear even more desirable to an increasingly uneducated populace.
Cue the Talibornagain...

[gilpo]

11. "Religion is the opiate of the masses"

-Karl Marx

It is also a great way to control the masses, huh?

[Lars39]

16. Yes, indeedy.

I've watched congregations get moved inch by inch to become something fearful.
Welcome to DU,gilpo! :toast:

[Jeffersons Ghost]

45. INDEPENDENT RELIGION IS A CURE

Understanding is the essence of any religion. Enlightenment is a healing influence to narrow-minded bigotry and ignorance of the beliefs of others... A closed ignorant mind allows people to lump together others and hate them as a group, which is the mark of a fool.

[Lars39]

79. Could you yell a little louder, perhaps?

At a certain point, the people in the congregations need to do some real soul-searching as to their beliefs and what directions the preacher or convention is trying to steer them.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

82. NO SORRY

THIS IS AS LOUD AS IT GETS... DOES IT HURT YOUR EARS?

After reading you're message, however, I will show you some respect because I agree.

[Burning Water]

4. That is not

sound Christian theology, at all. You must repent, and you may still pay consequences on this earth.

However, conservatives seem to have a somewhat different set of sins than liberals do. I don't think they think lack of social justice is high on the list.

[Kansas Wyatt]

6. Well, that's why alleged Religious Republicans act that way.

And to go a step further, they turn their religion into a contract where they can fault and punish everyone else in it to benefit them, yet they are released from any obligation to the contract until the very end.

No wonder Republicans love their religion so much, and cannot make-do without it.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

47. what do most of these "RELIGIOUS REPUBLICANS" focus on?

Money, all day and all night, all they think about and worship is CASH! They have banished God to one guilt-ridden hour a week and worship their true god the rest of the time.

THEY ARE CASHTAINS NOT CHRISTIANS... calling them christians makes them feel good! Is that what you want to do? Call a spade a spade and a CASHTAIN A HYPOCRITE!

[pitohui]

9. that is not a theory, that is a basic tenet of the religion

the only thing that makes christianity different from all other religions is that you are saved by grace of god rather than by deeds (there are many religions where people can be saved by blood sacrifice of animals, humans, or their own gods so the sacrifice of jesus is not as unique as we pretend)

in fact my ministers always made a great point of reminding us that we are saved by grace, not deeds

god has already decided at the beginning of time who is saved and who is not saved, there is NOTHING you can do to change that, all the sacrifice and good deeds in the world won't save you, he is god, he wrote the book of fate, not you

what jesus supposedly did was at least by giving the highest sacrifice, god's own blood and flesh, he was able to arrange things so that at least a few can be saved in his name instead of no one at all being saved

however, you are not saved by being a good person, even mother theresa is not saved, jimmy carter isn't saved, etc. unless god had already decided by his own "grace" (a term which seems to mean much the same as "whim" from what i can tell) and by persuasion from his son jesus to save them

it's actually quite nihilistic and cruel if you think abt it too hard, but this IS what the good book says, good deeds, self sacrifice etc. are quite pointless if you think you are saved, indeed they are quite pointless if you think you are not saved, god is bigger than you and he is gonna do what he's gonna do

[renate]

27. mega ew

I know you're citing the Bible, not your own feelings, about this but I can't tell for sure from your post whether this is a tenet you believe, and I don't want to offend you, so I'm having trouble wording this....

The idea of people being selected at random for being saved or not is... depressing. I simply can't see a just God doing that, let alone a loving one. The Old Testament God would maybe do that, but I don't know how people reconcile a fatherly New Testament God with this idea. I mean, I think God loves George Bush (in a disappointed way), that's how wacked-out-loving I believe God is.

[FreedomAngel82]

37. The thing is

each person when they die is judged on his/her deeds. As James said "faith without works is dead." You can say you're saved and born again all you want. If you're still an awful person that doesn't mean you get out of hell. And for the record I personally believe hell is your personal hell and away from God. Not fire and things like that. How can your body burn when you don't have a body? Heh. But that's what I and other Christians believe in with hell from conversations with them. But every person will be judged when he/she dies. If you want to know about baptism read Romans chapter six at biblegateway.com

[Jeffersons Ghost]

73. I think the Divine being who spoke to Abraham

Is wise, benevolent and powerful enough to reach all people in ALL religions, even atheists. In a secularist it is their innate sense of knowing right from wrong and the Divine spark of creativity and intellect all humans share... Neo-Platonists said that Divine spark is our soul.

[mrcheerful]

10. They are just a bunch of dry drunks trying to tell

everyone that behaviors aren't important, their good intentions are all that matters. See repenting to them is exactly like making amends, just mouth the word I'm sorry and it makes up for every mis deed in their life. They ignore that both repenting and making amends have actions that must be done, words aren't enough to make everything ok with their victims. Ever notice that when push comes to shove their christen values go right out the window, and the biggoted, obnoxious, braggert take over. They also resort to violence at the drop of a hat and turning the other cheek isn't in their bible.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

65. turning the other cheek is the hardest part for me

I too often turn it in a spinning back kick of words and deeds... but we all have shortcomings. The cliche is "I'm not perfect I'm forgiven" but it's a lie. No one who asks for forgiveness without actually making up their mind to improve is forgiven... My cliche is "I'm not perfect, I am improving."

[Boojatta]

12. "YOU DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE TO CHANGE"

In that case, what do they mean when they claim to have been "born again"?

Perhaps preachers of Christianity should put more emphasis on what comes before being "born again": dying. Presumably at least the evil part of one's personality must die.

Your point is legitimate in the sense that some people might be so interested in the "born again" part that they get sloppy about the dying part.

"Somebody died. It happened on a cross. It was painful, but now I get to wear a cross. Okay, are we done with that part?"

[WCGreen]

13. That is the best and worst part of Christianity....

You should always seeks salvation....

But if you use the salvation card for a cover to evil....

Somehow I don't think that is what Jesus had in mind...

[Nikki Stone 1]

14. 'Rape your wife, say you are sorry, and you are still going to heaven."

This happened to a friend of mine. Her husband raped her repeatedly (after beating her) and the pastor of their church told him that Jesus forgave him so it was all ok. She eventually divorced the guy, but had to live secretly in shelters to prevent him from finding her.

It reminds me of Sting's old line: "Father, if Jesus exists, then how come he never lives here?"

[Cats Against Frist]

25. Correction: ANALLY rape your wife, say sorry, go to heaven

http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20050530&s=mcgarvey

Late last October Dr. W. David Hager, a prominent obstetrician-gynecologist and Bush Administration appointee to the Advisory Committee for Reproductive Health Drugs in the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), took to the pulpit as the featured speaker at a morning service. He stood in the campus chapel at Asbury College, a small evangelical Christian school nestled among picturesque horse farms in the small town of Wilmore in Kentucky's bluegrass region. Hager is an Asburian nabob; his elderly father is a past president of the college, and Hager himself currently sits on his alma mater's board of trustees. Even the school's administrative building, Hager Hall, bears the family name.

That day, a mostly friendly audience of 1,500 students and faculty packed into the seats in front of him. With the autumn sunlight streaming through the stained-glass windows, Hager opened his Bible to the Old Testament Book of Ezekiel and looked out into the audience. "I want to share with you some information about how...God has called me to stand in the gap," he declared. "Not only for others, but regarding ethical and moral issues in our country."

snip

Up on the dais, several men seated behind Hager nodded solemnly in agreement. But out in the audience, Linda Carruth Davis--co-author with Hager of Stress and the Woman's Body, and, more saliently, his former wife of thirty-two years--was enraged. "It was the most disgusting thing I've ever heard," she recalled months later, through clenched teeth.

According to Davis, Hager's public moralizing on sexual matters clashed with his deplorable treatment of her during their marriage. Davis alleges that between 1995 and their divorce in 2002, Hager repeatedly sodomized her without her consent. Several sources on and off the record confirmed that she had told them it was the sexual and emotional abuse within their marriage that eventually forced her out. "I probably wouldn't have objected so much, or felt it was so abusive if he had just wanted normal sex all the time," she explained to me. "But it was the painful, invasive, totally nonconsensual nature of the sex that was so horrible."

[Nikki Stone 1]

84. A Bush appointee turns out to be a rapist?

Imagine that!

:sarcasm:

[TlalocW]

15. I'm still looking for where it says in the Bible

That Jesus wants me to be rich and is going to help me make wise financial choices. There are several books out that will show me this, but I thought I'd save money and just use the Bible. Having some difficulty though...

TlalocW

[bmbmd]

26. Try Jeremiah 29:11.

"For I have plans to prosper you," sayeth the Lord God, "and not to harm you."

Also Malachi 3:10 "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that not enough ."

[Jeffersons Ghost]

54. WRONG BMBD

First the poster wanted it in the words of JESUS... Next "prosper" can take on many meanings that have nothing to do with money... Find the "eye of the camel" example in the New Test. and read how Christ says you should prosper... In fact, every quote by Jesus says we must give away EVERYTHING material to follow Him and says it in several ways and several places.

You can't teach Christianity from Hebrew text in the old Test... If you want to learn about and be a better Christian EACH DAY, who doesn't need "forgivness" it's best to focus on the new... It's kind of like Govt. will be "toss out the old bring in the new."

[bmbmd]

81. He asked, I told.

These passages are the basis for the so-called "Prosperity Theology". I don't subscribe to those views, I just reported the facts. Don't kill the messenger.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

85. i apologize bmb

You're right about messenger killing... Is that the excuse these fools REALLY use for tossing out most of the teachings of Christ? How absurd! After they circumvent the teachings of Jesus and His Golden Rule, I don't see how they still qualify as Christians. "Do unto others often and hard, long before they can do unto you." Hey, i've uncovered the golden rule of CASHtianity!

[PATRICK]

17. Something about their zeal

It seems to me if a very dissolute bad man starts touching the dark bottom of damnation, etc he need to save himself- and become a victorious rotten sinner with greater comfort in pure hypocrisy vindicated all sorts of ways ina collectivity of some sorts. Buddha on the other hand totally abandons all the sins and desires the rat is afraid of losing. He did this at risk of death and faced annihilation without fear. Then he returned to aid others, not torment them. One is the passion for being an unreformed self, a phony with greater comfort in a greater lie. The other is compassion for others, selfless. The born again beast is diametrically opposed to selflessness and escapes the dark by interposing lies, by hiding behind idols, by reinterpreting truth, by feeling good about himself and angry about others.

Conversion is not that easy and any lack of consciousness or concern about still having the first self in all its horrors still there with no constant antidote of compassion to substitute for enthusiastic idolatry and cruelty is doomed to be worse than someone naturally falling prey to the usual vices of bad character. If Jesus said it was that easy, He also said saying so doesn't make it so, when actions belie the words.

Rasputin had a similar radical viewpoint that enabled the vices to go on with rapturous flights of spiritualism. The more one sins the more one can be forgiven and grace is really flowing, baby. Of course, no one likes the analogy of a crazed hedonist or Hitler or whatever. And they must have what they like with no price, no constraints, and only a few changes to keep themselves alive and in illusions. But not a smidgen of genuine compassion or spiritual change.

We are talking about hardcases and this would be hard on many of even the glibly "born again". At least those in a faddish philosophy or diet craze are not so offensive or dangerous.

[Nikki Stone 1]

20. Good post. Well analyzed

I'd nominate it if I could.

[robbedvoter]

18. Redemption is instant - if you are a Republican. No soul searching

required - not even a soul. Stamp of approval from the right nutcase makes you hollier than though, entitled to look down on other human beinggs without said stamp.
Mind ya, the enemy is unforgiveable - no lifelong of good deeds will ever make up for their not kissing up to their side. They need to be punished and disgraced in this life and beyond - it's Lord's will.
Many tyranies used religion to legitimize them.
Not all though - the left extremist societies used different delusional afterlife promises - that also worked for quite some time.

[Javaman]

19. Man created god...

once a person understands this, the rest is easy.

There is nothing to be saved from.

[FiveGoodMen]

92. Ramen!

[Ikonoklast]

21. Without good works, faith is meaningless

If a person believes in the words of Jesus, yet doesn't practice them on a daily basis, there can be no redemption. It is not enough just to ask forgiveness for ones' sins, you must give up the old life of sin and start anew. That is being 'born again'. Simply accepting Jesus as your savior is not enough. Faith alone is not enough.

"Not everyone that says, 'Lord, Lord', will enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

"By their good works shall you know them."


These are the true Christians, the ones that live the word EVERY day. It is not enough just to proclaim belief, and be saved.

[jbnow]

46. Isn't it "by their fruits

shall you know them."

And then there is:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, JOY, peace , longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law

[Jeffersons Ghost]

57. EXACTLY

GREAT POST! Thanks from this real Christian, although I'm sorry to admit, a real BAD Christian... I'm working on it give me some time.

[Ikonoklast]

74. Depends on which interpretation that is used

Also, another great problem with a literal teaching of the Bible.

Whose version do you use? I've seen so many of the exact same verses translated so differently, one would think that they weren't even from the same book.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

86. Darby translation is supposed to be the most accurate.

I've never compared it ALL to KJV but only in Genesis 2 Darby uses Elohim-Jehovah as a name for the Hebrew Father God. Elohim is plural as if to combine Logos and Sophia, hence "He (Adam) has now become like one of US, knowing good from evil."

[tenshi816]

88. Is that the same Darby

who invented the idea of the Rapture?

[Jeffersons Ghost]

91. no, darby was an excellent translator.

I think that rapture stuff is first put forth in Revelations. All the hocus-pocus in that last book is the main reason the fools have turned Christianity into a Death Cult... I wonder what my Prince of Peace will say to them. If they would only realize that Constantine and his cronies were the ones who decided the last book had a place in the belief system, they might not put such stock in it... The idiots remind me of crazy damn Jehadists.

[tenshi816]

102. I'm still wondering if we're talking about the same person.

Are you referring to John Nelson Darby? If so, he was not only a translator, but one of the people who got the whole Rapture nonsense started. Here's an article about it.

[StoryTeller]

22. WAIT a Minute!!! That's not exactly how it goes...

Will you allow someone who considers herself "saved" to provide a better explanation? (Namely me???)

First, you have to understand, there has been a LOT of very irresponsible theology taught in a lot of evangelical churches. There are a lot of churches that do teach "just say a prayer and you're in the Going-To-Heaven club" --or a holier-sounding version of that. I know that. That's where a lot of this crap comes from. And that's why a lot of people say they "tried Christianity and it didn't work." No, they did NOT "try" Christianity. They tried a formulaic prayer, and it didn't work. Go figure.

REAL Christian doctrine teaches the following: (And I'm NOT try to "proselytize" or say that you all have to believe this, okay? I'm just trying to explain what, historically, Christianity teaches. As a Christian, it bothers me greatly to hear of people like this who are muddying the waters about what my faith--and the faith of millions around the world--is really all about. I'm just trying to provide some information for you, so you can counter what they are claiming. Those of you who think it's all a bunch of nonsense are welcome to do so, and you may want to ignore the rest of this post. But my faith is deeply important to me, and I appreciate those of you who respect that enough to allow me to correct the misconceptions that others are creating.)

1) Left to themselves, human beings are not perfect. Whether well-intentioned or intentionally nasty, all people eventually screw up. We lose our tempers, we get jealous, we get prideful, or impatient. At least ONCE in our lives, right?

2) God is the only being that is perfect, who never screws up. He's everything good and wise, that we could never be. And the weird thing is, He knows us and loves us, despite our tendency to get it wrong. And this God wants us to know Him. (This is what "grace" means--that God cares about human beings even though we're pretty screwed up as a group, and that he wants to interact with us on a personal level regardless.)

3) Our screw ups make it pretty hard to do that, because it's like a bunch of baggage that stands between us and God. There's no way we can relate to a God that is so unlike us. Big problem to be separated from God, because God is everything that is good. If you are barred from what is good, then what you have left is...pretty ugly. (By the way, to me, that's all "hell" is--simply not being with God. The theology on a physical hell is actually not very clear at all.) And this separation is essentially permanent death. And that's not what God wants for us, and not what we want for ourselves. But how do we fix this problem? We can't.

4) God is full of mercy, and continues to allow us to experience goodness in the world, despite the effects of all the wrong-headed things humans do to each other and to the world in general. But at some point, most people become discouraged with how powerless they feel to really be good and pure on the inside, or at least to bring goodness and purity into the world around them. Some people don't feel this way, but many do. And it's because inside, they know they lack the ability to do this on their own.

5) So God himself provided a solution by becoming a human being (Jesus) and living the life we could not--the life of perfect goodness. Through his death, Jesus also experienced the separation from God (Trinity doctrine, there, too confusing for one post) on our behalf.

6) Now, when a person asks God to forgive them for the things they've done that are wrong, and, by faith (meaning whole-hearted trust and belief that this is true and necessary) accepts that Jesus's life and death provided the solution for that separation from God, then God forgives that person and removes that stuff that separates them from him. Not only that, but God changes that person from the very inner part of them and joins part of Himself to them (what we call the Holy Spirit) so that they will never be separated from him again. This is what Christians call "being saved." In some churches, this is accompanied by being baptized or joining the church, but the core issue is one of faith.

7) BUT IT DOESN'T END THERE! This is where a lot of people figure they can stop. WRONG! Jesus didn't just die, he also lived a life of perfect goodness. Real Christianity is a process in which we allow God to shape us into people who act and live like Jesus. This shaping comes through the traditional Christian disciplines of Scripture study, prayer (talking to and listening to God), Christian meditation and reflection, and hanging out with other people who can help us and encourage us to make these changes in our lives. This is where a lot of people get hung up on the "do's and don'ts" but it shouldn't be that way. Learning to live like Jesus is an act of love, not an act of duty. And it's something that God helps us do, when we let him and don't try to do it on our own.

8) And at the end of this life, we believe that there will not be separation from God waiting for us, but that we will be with him--in whatever way that means.

This is what traditional Christianity believes and teaches. A Christian will not alway make right choices or do the correct thing all the time. But a real Christian displays the same traits that Jesus had--a desire to please God and know him deeply, compassion for other people, a commitment to peace, unconditional love, gentleness, courage, self-control, loyalty and faithfulness, kindness, obedience to God, and a forgiving spirit. These traits may be in various stages of development, but the desire for them will be there.

If you find a person who claims to be a Christian, based on a prayer they prayed or any other religious experience or ritual, but they do not display any of these traits...well, I am not in a position to judge another person's soul, but I can tell you that how they are behaving is NOT what real Christianity looks like.

I hope this helps explain it. I am sorry you are seeing such contradictory behavior in people claiming to be Christian. Please feel free to call them on it and point out the contradiction, because my guess is either they are ignorant of what real Christianity is, or they are counting on you being ignorant of it yourself. Either way, it would be nice to have that sort of disinformation stopped.

[renate]

30. thank you for that beautifully written explanation

I love #7 especially--"This is where a lot of people figure they can stop. WRONG!"
I think that if "being saved" were always synonymous with your description, including #7 of course, the world would be a better place and Christianity wouldn't have the negative connotations it unfortunately does now.

[StoryTeller]

55. I agree...and, you're welcome...

But I would encourage you to look around and see how many Christians are displaying #7-type lives. They aren't the loudest, most public voices. And you don't find them on the radio or tv--at least not often. But if you go to the homeless shelters, you may find them serving food or tucking a blanket around a child. If you visit youth centers in the inner city, you might find them tutoring kids or playing basketball with wannabe gang members, and helping them reframe their life into something positive. You'll find them as teachers in classrooms, as cube-dwellers in an office, as construction workers, and businesspeople. And you'll find them living in the poorest countries of the world working to help the people there as doctors, nurses, teachers, farmers, orphanage directors, etc.--certainly not because it gives them power or wealth, but just because the need is so great that they could never imagine shutting their ears and eyes to it.

And don't forget that there are millions of Christians in other countries around the world, too. I've had the pleasure of meeting some of them, and no matter what the culture is like, they, too display the same characteristics of one who really follows Christ.

This isn't a 21st century American thing. That type of "Christian" is a flash-in-the-pan fad that will not last. Real Christianity (not the kind that commits atrocities and injustices in the name of Christ) is a global, historical thing of beauty and peace that has always had at its heart the protection of innocents, and the reconciliation of people regardless of race, ethnicity, gender, economic status, or power. It's just that it tends to be lived, not shouted.

[IdaBriggs]

39. Thank you for a very well written explanation; I think, however,

you are proving my point about "Republican Christianity" -- and unfortunately, I've met more of them than I care to count. :(

I particularly liked this part of what you wrote:

a real Christian displays the same traits that Jesus had--a desire to please God and know him deeply, compassion for other people, a commitment to peace, unconditional love, gentleness, courage, self-control, loyalty and faithfulness, kindness, obedience to God, and a forgiving spirit. These traits may be in various stages of development, but the desire for them will be there.

This seems to be a true tenet of most of the "great" religions; what do you think?

[StoryTeller]

53. A true tenet of most of the "great religions"

Perhaps...depending on what religions you had in mind. I think that what makes Christianity different, though, is the motivation from which those traits spring.

And yes, I think that your point about "republican" Christianity may be true. But I just wanted to remind everyone that what is called Christianity may not actually be. And that can be said of any claim to Christianity, regardless of the political viewpoints of the person making it. I know some very authentic Christians who display these traits--in both political parties. I also know many people who claim to follow Christ who display few or none of these qualities--in both political parties.

Many conservatives are very skilled at meshing their politics and religion. I don't want us to make the same mistake as progressives and liberals. My faith influences my politics but is not the same as politics, and my politics will never control or influence my faith.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

60. thanks for taking the time to write a truly Christian approach

I'm not very good at Christianity yet and it may contradict some doctrine but I met Divinity one day a while back and prayed for wisdom, which is the only wealth I seek... Anyhow it may sound stupid to some people but this Deity taught me that it was wise, benevolent and powerful enough to speak to all people of all religions in a way they could love and understand. It said I should never Judge another for that is not my place. It taught me that when i put the needs of others above my own I can see the Kingdom of God. Jesus teaches it's in my heart and not a physical place. He also showed me a way to get to this Kingdom but I'm not very good at it yet. Plato taught me how to improve every day. Maybe he was a Divine helper too.

[Greyhound]

70. I appreciate your belief because I believe it is heartfelt, but the fact

remains that 'christianity' has done more damage to more cultures, civilizations and individuals than any other force in recorded history. If you are truly spiritual you must realize that that baggage cannot be ignored, each injustice, each death, created a stain on the philosophy that persists. No good can come from evil, and that is what christianity has been and remains.
The 'fundamentalist wackos' are just as christian as you and your congregation, whether you accept it or not. The non-christian population the world over has seen the results of what happens when the christians come, rape, looting, torture, death, the destruction of culture, civilization, language, and property. It is a shameful legacy, not nearly offset by the paltry 'help' they have purported to provide (for a price).

[StoryTeller]

93. How do you know they were really Christians?

I'm asking this question seriously. My description of Christianity is completely incompatible with anything evil or anything that can cause damage to anybody.

Just because someone does something in the name of Christ or in the name of Christianity, does not mean that person is a Christian. Someone who has gone through the process I described and shows the character qualities I listed in my post will not rape, loot, torture, kill, destroy, or in any other way promote evil.

Here's an analogy: on DU, a person can claim to be a Democrat. They can claim to be a liberal, progressive, lefty, or whatever they want to call themselves. But how will they be judged by other DU'ers? By what they do here on the board. If they start talking like a RW'er, if they start defending Bush, then eventually someone will hit the "alert" button, and that person will be tombstoned as a troll. They were judged by what they did.

In the Bible, this is called "fruit." You know it's an apple tree because it puts out apples. Well, you know a person is a Christian by what they DO and how they respond when they screw up. Frankly, there are times when I don't act like a Christian. But when I mess up, I take responsibility for that and try to make ammends, and I also ask God to forgive me.

I would also allow for the possibility of some very genuine Christians to be deceived by bad teaching, which could lead to behavior contrary to what Jesus taught. I think this is possibly the case with some of the peasants and commoners that participated in the crusades, as well as the mentality of many ordinary people today that are swallowing the lies and propaganda fed them. There are also a lot of Christians in various stages of development who haven't yet got their lives "put together." Big deal. Jesus never demanded perfection in order to follow him.

If you are interested in learning more about this, you might try reading the Bible, which is the basis of Christian belief. The book of I John, chapter 4 is all about how the basic requirement of someone who claims to know God is LOVE. In fact, it goes so far as to say that if someone says they love God and yet hates their brother or sister, they are lying about knowing God.

I'm sorry to see such cynicism from you. It's obvious that you are deeply concerned and wounded by the abuses that have been carried out in the name of Christianity. It breaks my heart, too, because I know that such abuses and crimes against humanity are NOT acts of a true follower of Jesus. It's so easy to blame the faith as a whole, when in reality, the faith is not the problem. The problem is, and always has been, that people tend to try to use religion to gain power and to control other people because of their own greed and pride. They turn it into an institution, a power structure, for their own gain. This is a flaw in human nature, not necessarily in the belief structure of that faith.

Christianity was never supposed to become an institution or power-structure. The actual tenets of our faith turn power structures upside down, where the most powerful people are commanded by God to serve others, where it's the poor and neglected who are most favored and assisted, where weakness actually becomes a strength. In following Jesus, all those human hierarchies are supposed to be torn away and people are supposed to consider the needs of others as more important than their own, no matter their rank or status or power. In fact, the strongest and most powerful have a greater responsibility to protect and empower those that are weaker, so that all people can thrive and experience peace. THAT is what Christianity teaches. THAT is how a person who really is a follower of Jesus will live their lives--or at least that is their motivation and desire.

Now, how could THAT possibly result in evil? And if that is what Christianity teaches, then do you suppose that the evils done in the name of Christianity might point to a totally different belief system that, in reality, has nothing to do with Jesus and everything to do with the reasons why we need God in the first place?

[John Grevstad]

23. That would be Paul's version of Christianity

Jesus seldom talks about the magical thing called faith that wipes away our sins. Don't get me wrong he does, but he also says that faith without good works is nothing. The two are linked

It is Paul who said that it is all about faith. It is Paul who disparaged good works.

The Religious Right follow Paul and do everything possible to avoid the teachings of Christ. Just look at Gibson's version of Christ's life. It starts and ends with jesus getting his ass kicked for us. Totally avoids the social teachings of Christ because those teachings would convict Gibson of making millions of the death of his savior.

Which may lead to the ol' lake of fire.

[kineneb]

31. fundies avoid the Synoptic gospels and their message

Apparently their Bible doesn't contain Matthew, Mark or Luke. Those are the only books of the NT that contain the actual wisdom of the historical Jesus. And they really don't like the message. None follow the Beatitudes or the parts about praying in private and the rich not getting into heaven. And since Jesus himself followed Jewish law, which emphasises good works, they are just wrong on the "faith alone" bits. That indeed was Paul's invention.

It is all about what you do, not what you believe.

[mwb970]

75. They want the Ten Commandments posted everywhere, but...

...never a word about the Sermon on the Mount. And these are supposedly Christians! Curious, no?

[Jeffersons Ghost]

63. john

do you think Puritanism has a strong influence on North American Christianity? The Puritans were so narrow minded and judgmental in their views back then (maybe not now) that they were basically run out of England.

[John Grevstad]

100. Hard to say

Honestly, I think the Religious Right is almost making it up as they go along. When they see an issue they don't like (a woman's right to choose, same-sex marriage, etc..) they just start making shit up and reference the first biblical quote they can find to justify their narrow-mindedness. The holier-than-thou, judgmental mind-set is the same.

I hope that eventually we run the new fundamentalists out of the country. But, that would be bad for our democracy. We don't want to do the them what they would like to do to us.

[Radical Activist]

28. Simple minded protestantism destroyed christianity.

[IdaBriggs]

35. To be fair, some of the "non simple minded" Catholics weren't

all that great of examples of "true Christianity." I have a complete book of all the different 'heresies' the Catholic Church actively worked on wiping out (which meant killing the practitioners). If it wasn't for the printing press, Luther probably would have joined them in being consigned to (pardon the pun) oblivion.

[Radical Activist]

38. True. Original Christianity was destroyed long before Luther came along.

Jesus must be turning in his grave...oh wait...nevermind.

[Cleita]

29. And if you are a Catholic, go to confession, get forgiven by

Christ Himself through his priest, and have the comfort of knowing the priest can't tell anyone what you did.

However, Catholics do have Purgatory, a Hell that isn't eternal, where you go to pay for your sins, before you are purified enough to go to Heaven. So you do have to suffer a lot for everything bad that you did.

I don't know if Protestants believe that they won't have to be held accountable and spend some time in Purgatory once they are forgiven.

[karynnj]

90. As a former Catholic

I remember that to be forgiven you are supposed to be genuinely sorry. (probably from the Baltimore Catecism)

[gulliver]

32. It's a security flaw in Heaven, but ...

... it's needed to protect church payrolls.

[FreedomAngel82]

34. Than they're wrong

Just because they say "sorry" doesn't mean they're going to get a free pass card. There is a judgment day.

[Tsiyu]

36. It's funny, but I was thinking about this the other day

and I think that the GOP has made Jesus completely irrelevant.

Jesus said: "Don't judge other people, because the same measure you use to judge others will be used to judge YOU."

This means that if you are an asshole who cheats on your spouse (sexual sin) yet you claim all gays are going to hell because of sexual sin, you also will go to hell.


Even if a man looks with lust upon a married woman, he has "committed adultery" according to Jesus (methinks he used this example to show hypocrisy in men who would stone women yet still imagined doing the things they claimed were a sin in others) How many of us have no sexual sin? I would wager, very few.

Jesus said "Show mercy to others, because the mercy you show will be shown to you."

This means all of the people who laughed at or disparaged victims of Katrina or the maimed children of Iraq or our murdered soldiers or Cindy SHeehan will also be laughed at and their pain ignored when they face a similar tragedy. No way around it.

Jesus said: "Sell all you have and give to the poor" and "Don't lay up treasures on earth".

He was very clear about helping the poor, weak, sick and imprisoned. If poor people are "cursed" in the eyes of the Repukes, they are blessed in Jesus' eyes.

So what I'm saying is, the GOP doens't believe in Jesus at all. They couldn't possibly believe in him if they think they can kill, judge and oppress in GOd's name.

I am not a CHristian anymore because of them. I am ashamed to say, they have turned Jesus into a failure. THEY Have turned his love for all of humanity into hatred for those humans they choose not to love. They have exhibited sin beyond redemption: murdering, lying, cheating, greedy hoarding, judging others, showing no mercy.

I came to the conclusion yesterday that not one of them truly believes even in the wrath of God they spew out at others. How could they believe? Everything they have done would land them straight in hell. So they are only using God to further their own ends.

[IdaBriggs]

42. Wow. Just ... wow. I have thought similar things.

Thank you for sharing so eloquently. :)

[Tsiyu]

43. Thank you for bringing this up

Great minds think alike??? :hi:

[sendero]

40. I'm not a Christian...

... but this is my understanding of the concept of Jesus and forgiveness.

Your sins are forgiven if you "accept Jesus in your heart and repent from sin".

You cannot lie, cheat and steal and claim you love Jesus. Because if you truly believe, you would not lie, cheat or steal.

You don't get to be a total waste of life, and get up every morning and say "sorry Jesus, I repent".

The Bible is very clear on this point, and anyone who thinks otherwise might find the flames licking at their ass in the not too distant future :)

[Jeffersons Ghost]

44. I AM Christian

and I want to thank a NON-Christian for clearly presenting the truth about Christianity... THAT'S SENDRO.

REPUKES ARE CASHTAINS AND THEY ONLY WORSHIP ONE THING: CASH! THE REST OF THEIR BELIEF SYSTEM IS BASED ON HIPOCRACY... REST ASSURED FREEPERS WILL POST ANTI-CHRISTIAN BOARDS AT DU SO THEY CAN LIE AND PROVE TO OTHERS HOW EVIL WE ALL ARE, WHILE KEEPING TRUE CHRISTIANS FROM VOTING DEMOCRATIC... IF JESUS CAME BACK TODAY, HE'D JOIN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND ATTACK THESE FOOLS WHO HAVE TURNED HIS TEMPLE INTO A WHORE!

[EstimatedProphet]

48. Take it one step further

I've known fundamentalists who believe that doing certain things is a sin (drinking comes to mind), but they become "saved" so that they will be able to do it. In other words, being saved allows them to sin with impunity. Whatever they do after they become saved is OK, because they were saved.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

50. you're right

I call the fools Cashtains... they only worship a few hours a week, if that much... To them, religion becomes an excuse for doing evil, again and again. Jesus drank and it wasn't grape-juice. It was high-grade wine!

Next time one of them asks you "are you saved?" say yes, but not from judgmental hypocrite Cashtains! I wonder who or what will save us from the big war they seek? They've turned my beautiful religion into a fucking death cult! They give Christianity a bad name, while creating hell on Earth, instead of the Kingdom in their hearts as Christ taught.

[Marie26]

51. I think it's more...

beat up a gay man, God will thank you for stopping the sinful. Bomb a village, God will thank you for bringing them Christianity & freedom. It's not really about forgiveness - what's to forgive if they're doing God's work? That's the mindset.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

56. so you agree with them marie

All they really want is for you to admit that they are christians in print like you just did... I guess you don't want any christians to vote democratic either right? you're comment might insult and run off a hundred or so depending on how many read this board... If you wanted to really piss them off you'd call a spade a spade in calling them GODLESS CASHTAINS SERVING THE MIGHTY MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX.

you are right in one thing you say... in fact, it's so right it redeems any potential wrong your posting might do, when you ask, "what's to forgive if they're doing God's work?"

[Marie26]

58. No way

Sorry if I offended anyone. I hope it was clear that I don't agree w/them; I was just trying to capture what that mindset is. The mindset of any religious fanatic - that they don't need forgiveness because the actions are in God's name. I really hope I'm not offending any Christians; that wasn't what I intended at all. Christianity is about love & tolerance, and I really respect most religious people. The poster seems to be referring to a certain kind of person that uses religion to justify their hatred, so that's who I was talking about too. The "fundamentalists," I guess, for lack of a better word.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

62. thank you marie

While I'm still not very good at being Christian, you certainly didn't offend me but instead gave me an opportunity to make a point... Although, you may not be a Christian, your tolerance and respect for the views of others offers many who call themselves Christians a good example to follow... If all who called themselves Christians had your views toward humanity they would be much closer to God. They would also be happier... I mean, why wait? If you want Heaven let's start creating it on earth today... Let's do it like marie said. Tolerance and forgiveness, while we refuse to judge others sounds like heaven to me. WAR IS HELL! Have you ever heard that one? What true Christian wants Hell on Earth?

[Marie26]

97. Thank you for the kind words.

We're in agreement, then. :)

[radio4progressives]

59. Isn't there a Religious Forum where people are free to Proselytize

without subjecting those of us who feel extremely offended and oppressed by Tyranny of Reliousity and the American Taliban on the FCMSM every single day of the week?

[Jeffersons Ghost]

61. so if you feel that way

why did you read the board at all?

[radio4progressives]

67. wtf?

i am a DU member, who reads and posts regularly.

why do i have to be subjected to scrolling through postings on GD or GD Politics and be subjected to Religious subject headings?

[Jeffersons Ghost]

77. there are posts like this every day nearly

Do you ask this on each of them? I haven't seen your comments like the one you just made on the other boards.

[Lars39]

80. You have worked this thread from top to bottom and it's not even yours.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

66. Story Teller specifically said that she was NOT proselytizing, only

explaining how the right wing fundies were deviating from mainstream Christian theology.

The fundies essentially believe in a doctrine of "cheap grace." It's not so much that they can be instantly forgiven for what they do, no matter how little they try to change, it's that they believe that if they're "saved," any self-serving thing they do automtically becomes okay.

Every mainstream Christian denomination insists that while we all sin, we are supposed to do our best not to.

[radio4progressives]

69. Right wing Fundies doesn't adhere to Christian teachings, is Not News

I'm 55 yeas old, and have observed this fact since I was 8 or 9 years old. Hence, my visceral adversion to all quotes and references to biblical scripture and other religious reference, including the words like jesus and god. I feel personally the iron fist of religious tyranny whenever it is ASSUMED that i should want to be subjected to it.

[IdaBriggs]

78. This is about religion a little, but more about the political mindset

that follows from it, which is why I didn't put it in the Religion forum. I don't think anyone is attempting to proselytize on this thread, tho, although several people have attempted to point out their understanding of Generic Christianity (as opposed to that we see every day). Sorry if it offended you -- I'm still working to understand stuff. :)

:hi:

[Greyhound]

64. This sounds like plain old christianity to me,

the crack cocaine of religious beliefs. And why not? How appealing is the idea that you can do whatever you want to, to whomever you want to do it to, all with no consequences.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

68. the actual drug of religion...

Is the promise of an after-life... that's why Isis cults spread throughout the Roman Empire like wild-fire... I AM glad you know so much about Christianity... Unlike you I don't have a theology degree I'm just a humble student... What part of the Bible leads you to your conclusions? Where did you find what you just typed?

[Greyhound]

76. My opinions are based on historical fact and personal observation

the idea that I must find my arguments in the text of a fictional and largely plagiarized tome is just silly, nor do I need a degree in theology to understand the practice of this abomination by 'the faithful'.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

87. No grayhound...

You're comments are based on a quote by Karl Marx in a book I read when I was thirteen but I'm totally open to seeing any and ALL historical data that supports your OPINION... A closed mind is the mark of a fool... As a major league history buff, I'm fascinated by the kind of reasonable data that helps the real pros in history form OPINIONS... Do you teach history professionally?

[Greyhound]

94. Just re-read my original comment, the reference to "opiate of the..." was

unintentional.
My intent was to agree with the OP hypothesis regarding cons not fearing hell because of the rules they choose to follow. The crack allusion was that it seems to be an easy fix like the whole 'repent and you get in thing'.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

98. To sum it up greyhound

Voltaire was brilliant but whether God created Man or Man created Divinity matters very little. Will we persist in recreating Divinity in a human image? If humankind continues to envision a deity that even tolerates the death and destruction of war or indiscriminate rape of natural resources of this world, then we must realize both man and woman remain chained to true evil. We must break the chains of The Devil, which represent ignorance and fear. For humanity to ascend beyond this level, it must take responsibility for foolish choices instead of attributing them to a deity. If we worship a divine being that accepts intolerance, prejudice and hatred of those who believe differently, then we create Hell on Earth not Heaven. Whether we call it Nirvana, Heaven or a perfect mental state of Bliss matters little. This is the final path. Humankind demonstrates amazing diversity in cultural and religious beliefs. Is it not conceivable that Divinity manifests to each of us in His/ Her own way? Perhaps the religious fundamentalists are correct and the deity they worship is the one true God. Even if they are wrong, at least their deity blesses flags of wrath in battle, thus relieving them of any responsibility for actions. We have other choices. Now is the time to take a higher road and realize that if religion serves humanity, it serves the same true God/ Goddess. Only then can we unshackle humanity from ignorance and fear, which chains us to pathetically foolish paths.

[Greyhound]

103. You should check this book out. The Chalice and the Blade.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=1q6zFq0Dzc&isbn=0062502891&itm=1
Fascinating and enlightening, in that it offers a different (I haven't run into the theory before at any rate) explanation to, what appears to be, mankind's psychosis.

[skids]

83. As opposed to what...

...The "I'm damned anyway so I might as well party it up and strangle a few poodles" approach?

No, I think there's a much simpler explanation: some sociopaths have learned that if they call themselves "christian" in this society they can get away with more. It's not an intrinsic flaw in the faith, it's just stupidity on the part of those that let them get away with it.

[Yollam]

89. It's a very sound theory.

And it's the number one reason why so many "family values" believing fundies are so often caught behaving in the most unbelievably immoral and hypocritical manner.

It's why if I had to pick a religion, Id go with one that stresses karma, because karma is a debt that must be paid and will be paid - there is no short cut around it.

But I imagine that if the Christian God was real, these thugs' cries of repentance and pleas for repentance would fall on deaf ears. After all, the repentance has to be TRUE and SINCERE. And God would know when you're full of SHIT.

[mzmolly]

95. By jove, I think you've got it!

;)

[Generic Brad]

96. Spiritual Superiority

I've had some born agains actually tell me God has chosen them to go to heaven whereas non-believing liberals like me are condemned to hell. And also, I can never be forgiven for anything they deem wrong, like voting Democrat, because I am supporting the killing of babies.

I need to meet some new people.

[radio4progressives]

99. Sam Harris Says it all for me: End of Faith ...(excerpts /link)

http://samharris.org/

Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason

The End of Faith by Sam Harris


The Clash of Faith and Reason

excerpts from website:

"This important and timely book delivers a startling analysis of the clash of faith and reason in the modern world. The End of Faith provides a harrowing glimpse of mankind’s willingness to suspend reason in favor of religious beliefs, even when these beliefs inspire the worst of human atrocities. Harris argues that in the presence of weapons of mass destruction, we can no longer expect to survive our religious differences indefinitely.

Most controversially, he maintains that “moderation” in religion poses considerable dangers of its own: as the accommodation we have made to religious faith in our society now blinds us to the role that faith plays in perpetuating human conflict. While warning against the encroachment of organized religion into world politics, Harris draws on insights from neuroscience, philosophy, and Eastern mysticism in an attempt to provide a truly modern foundation for our ethics and our search for spiritual experience. "