So, tell me about Candian healthcare (a pre-emptive thread)

[underpants]

Since W is oging to come out with some wonderful health care ideas (gee hope they are like that Walmarted drug plan) I know that lots of us and people we know will want to know about the system they have north of the border.

Let's start with the obvious-COST- how many of my little pennies will I have to spend on it?

What do I get?

Do you really have to wait 1 1/2 for eye care? Do they really tell medical students what and where they have to practice?

I am really just throwing out ideas and crap that I have heard.

Is there a good source (or two) to summarize this?

I really mean this as an informative thread for the watercooler talk tomorrow.

[Sgent]

1. Some realities

The provision of healthcare between private citizens is forbidden. A doctor cannot see someone privately.

I don't like the Canadian system -- I think we ought to look towards the British system or some combination of the two.

[pocket]

4. that provision was overturned by their supreme court last year

there are some private clinics now.

[CanSocDem]

7. Really...???

"The provision of healthcare between private citizens is forbidden. A doctor cannot see someone privately."


You don't have much knowledge about it, do you....???

[EVDebs]

45. Conservatives have been saying for soooo long Canada's system = doomed

...if it hasn't failed by now, then you'd think there's logically something wrong with the argument that the free market failure system WE have (which really IS doomed) shouldn't be the one that's failing.

Free markets result in failures, just look at how many businesses fail annually. This obviously can't be allowed in the provision of healthcare. Failure = deaths, laissez faire nitwits.

[wakeme2008]

2. all I know is a lot of West Palm Fl snowbirds are from Canada

and everytime somebody trashes the Canadian system, the LTTEs run 3 to 1 in favor of it.

[underpants]

3. Co-worker was telling me about his relatives who come to the US

He said they save up and come here because they get service quicker.

Who knows, there is nothing that has ever happened that this guy doesn't have direct experience in or knows someone who has.

[SharonAnn]

5. My Canadian Aunt says the only "delays" are for elective procedures

like a hip replacement. It could be done today, tomorrow, next week, next month without causing injury.

Needed surgery is not "delayed".

The difference is that in the U. S., any surgery can be (and is) "delayed" becasue of lack of insurance and ability to pay cash for it. Doesn't matter if it's necessary or elective.

[SeattleRob]

6. Canadians are proud of their system

Much of the what we hear is misinformation from the insurance industry.

[underpants]

9. That's pretty much what I figured

post #8 is excellent-take a look

[rush07]

69. Living close to the border.....

you get used to seeing many clinics open up along the border and they are generally full of Ontario license plates. I will not pretend to have any idea how the Canadian system works, but I do know that an awful lot of Canadians cross the border to get health care. It brings a lot of money into the local economy of these northern border towns.

[hopeisaplace]

71. my parents are snowbirds - they are in the US 4 months or so

every year - if they need health care in the US - they're covered through their plan.
Not sure how border towns would work - and how people would just cross over
for health care in the US?

Our last hockey tournament with the kids was in the US - we always make
sure our coverage is in place incase we end up in a US hospital. Actually one
of the perks on our Credit Card is Medical Insurance for trips to US. We used
to purchase this coverage for trips. It's not expensive.

Perhaps the people crossing the border, have some sort of extra coverage they
have purchased or perhaps they have the money to pay for it. I actually have no
idea either. My biggest fear is being handed a bill as I leave a doctor's office,
so I do make sure we have the appropriate travel insurance when we cross the border.

[Cooley Hurd]

87. That's bull...

I work in the technical/medical field (for a computer company in upstate NY with a large client base - all private practice medical providers - along the US-Canadian border) and I have NEVER seen, nor HEARD, of ANY Ontarians coming into the US for medical care. Nor have my clients see such activity, whom I'm in contact with every day. Can you do me a favor and go out and photograph all those cars with Ontario license plates sitting in provider's parking lots for me?:crazy:

Welcome to DU, rush - is "Rush" your favorite Canadian rock band? ;)

[Telly Savalas]

88. My family does.

Rather than getting free care here, we prefer to wait in a long line to cross the border and then pay out the ass for the same services in an American clinic. Wouldn't you?

[Cooley Hurd]

92. *snarf!* my point exactly

:thumbsup:

[eridani]

84. And WA state sends plenty of Americans north--

--by the busload to get basic care at half the price. Cash on the barellhead only, of course.

[Spazito]

8. Here is an article that sums it up quite well, imo

snip

The key to the Canadian system is that there is only one insurer - the government. Doctors generally work on a fee-for-service basis, as they do in the U.S., but instead of sending the bill to one of hundreds of insurance companies, they send it to their provincial government. In both countries there is a continual tug over the dollar between health care providers and insurers. The difference is that in Canada the insurance company is owned not by shareholders, but by the taxpayers - who, as one analyst explains, must constantly balance "their desire for more and better service against their collective ability to pay for it."

snip

The statistics paint a starkly different picture. In 1971, the year that all ten provinces adopted universal hospital and medical insurance programs, Canadian health care costs consumed 7.4 percent of national income in Canada, compared to 7.6 percent in the United States. In the thirty years since, however, Americans' health care expenditures as a percentage of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) have nearly doubled - to 14 percent - while Canadians' have remained relatively stable, increasing only to about 9 percent. And despite its high cost, the U.S. system fails to insure more than 44 million of its citizens. Some analysts predict that figure will grow to 60 million by 2008.

Canada's system is not only efficient; it is immensely popular. A 1993 Gallup Poll found that 96 percent of Canadians prefer their health care system to that of the United States. As Saskatchewan doctor E.W. Barootes, originally an opponent of universal health care, puts it, "today a politician in Saskatchewan or in Canada is more likely to get away with canceling Christmas than ... with canceling Canada's health insurance program."

In a 1998 poll conducted in the five major English-speaking countries (Australia, Canada, New Zealand, U.K., U.S.), 24 percent of Canadians thought they received excellent care in the past twelve months: the highest figure out of the five countries. Nineteen percent of Americans felt that they had received excellent care, which tied for third with Australia.

more

http://www.newrules.org/journal/nrwin01health.html

Here is a link to the final report from the Commission on the Future of Healthcare in Canada, released June, 2002:

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/english/care/romanow/hcc0094.html

Edited to add:

I pay $56.00 and for that I can go to MY doctor, chosen by ME, when and if needed, hospital care is covered except you pay for your phone and television. Here is a first hand experience about our healthcare:

I was visiting in Alberta, I live in British Columbia, and was in a car accident. I was not badly hurt but did need to go to emergency to be checked out. I waited there under a half an hour, was seen by a doctor, x-rays taken, cast put on my hand and I paid not one penny.

My vehicle insurance paid for my flight home to British Columbia, I paid not a penny extra for this as well.

Once home, I phoned my Doctor to make an appointment to see him to check the cast, etc. An appointment was made for one week later which was what had been recommended by the Alberta doctor. My hand was x-rayed again, it was found that the bone they were concerned I had broken was fine, cast was removed and I was, again, not charged one penny.

All this service for $56.00 a month, a damn good deal, imo.

[underpants]

10. Excellent thank you Spazito

That looks to be just about exactly what I need. Printing out for read later.

[Spazito]

11. You're very welcome!

The system is not perfect and needs to be tweaked but, over all, it is excellent, imo, and I will fight very hard to keep it.

[BigYawn]

65. Can lawsuits be filed for malpractice against the doctors,

hospitals and the isurer which in their case is the
Canadian government?

[Spazito]

79. Yes, malpractice suits can be filed against doctors and hospitals

and lawsuits can be filed against the government as well.

[hvn_nbr_2]

59. I remember a story about a big Canadian poll for "the greatest Canadian"

Don't remember any details, but I think it was a TV network poll that went on several weeks. The person they chose as the greatest Canadian of all their history was the leader who instigated and fought for establishing the current health care system. Rightwingers can always find one or two malcontents and pretend they're representative.

[hopeisaplace]

12. Here is the ultimate bottom line for me and my family

I take my kids to the doctor. I use my health card.
No money out of my pocket or on my credit card.
(a few things are chargeable - chickenpox vaccine $75 for kids over 5)etc..
I've had 4 kids. No bill when I left the hospital to have them.
If we need tests (blood, urine, ekg, etc..no charge to me)
I had to have surgery 2 years ago, I only had to wait 1 month.

The US can have their "tax cuts". I'll keep our health care system.
It's not perfect, but it's working for our family just fine
...and it's better THAN FRIGGIN' NOTHING!
..like some of things I read about people with no coverage in the US.
Now that's scary - no coverage.

[underpants]

15. WOW one of three great posts

The question that will arise will be about Americans taking advantage of the system. Using it too much. This is based at least partly in racist BS (I won't go into that) but that is one of the talking points about using such a system.

[Bridget Burke]

18. Gosh, maybe I'll have 2 mammograms this year!

They're so much fun. And I just love catching up on 2 year old People magazines while I wait.

Encouraging people to have regular checkups & see the doctor for worrisome symptoms saves money in the long run. Even if you've got assistance in paying for BIG problems--your chances are better if you don't wait for them to get big.

[underpants]

22. Well said

I pointed this out to my co-worker. I have to admit here that I an terrible about going to see a doctor. ANyway even if (wink nudge) some people were constantly going to the hospital at least then we would know if they had high blood pressure or cholesterol or whatever. IF they had their kids with them maybe the kids could -WARNING! be aware this might shock you- get immunized and regular check ups during their formative years.

[FlaGranny]

24. Most people

don't really want to go to the doctor. I know there are a handful of hypochondriacs who would live in a doctor's office if they could, but even hypochondriacs have a real problem that could probably be solved by counseling. I have yet to meet anyone who enjoys making appointments, showing up, waiting, and having their bodies poked, except for hypochondriacs.

[FormerDittoHead]

49. But Bush wants us to be more "frugal"...!

You see, by paying more out-of-pocket, we'll be more conscience of the costs and "shop around" (like, see a doctor we don't like because he's cheaper?) or even skip that mammogram because it will save a thousand on the co-pay (which is the amount of suggested co-pay for Medicare).

So we'll SAVE money! THAT'S the way to cut costs... YEAH! And if you actually DO have cancer, well, next question?

Not a bad sell to people under 30 and the rich, eh?

[FlaGranny]

20. I know a lot of Canadian

"snowbirds" who winter around here. Every time I meet a new one I always ask about health care. I have yet to find even one who has a complaint.

[SidDithers]

13. Anecdotal story for you...

My wife was having her annual physical, when her family doc felt a lump in her throat. The doc sent my wife for an ultrasound which was inconclusive, so an appt with a surgeon was a scheduled for a needle biopsy. The results of the needle biopsy were leaned toward thyroid cancer, so thyroid surgery was scheduled. Surgery took place and one half of my wife's thyroid was removed and sent to pathology. When the lump was confirmed to be cancer, another surgery was performed to remove the other half of the thyroid.

All told, we had 2 visits with the family doc, an ultrsound, 3 visits with the surgeon, and 2 surgeries, all over the course of about 2 1/2 months from finding the lump to the second surgery. (would have been quicker but the pathology between the first and second surgeries took almost a month.)

Total cost to us for all of the above: $30
(for 4 days of phone rental in the hospital room)

My wife now takes, and will be taking for the rest of her life, synthetic thyroid hormone, which runs us about $20 for a 3 month supply. We don't have a drug plan, so our pharma costs are all out of pocket.

I've never had a problem with our health care system.

Sid

[underpants]

16. WOW on of three great posts (rent of the phone? LOL)

The question that will arise will be about Americans taking advantage of the system. Using it too much. This is based at least partly in racist BS (I won't go into that) but that is one of the talking points about using such a system.

[hopeisaplace]

19. I think it's actually the opposite...I only use the system

when I feel it's totally necessary or time (physicals)
...having four kids and some experience behind me,
I can tell by their age, their symptoms, if it warrants a visit right away.
A lot of parents I talk too are like this - they're respectful of the
system - that's the general sense I get.

Believe it or not, people do actually consider the public good when they have
a public system. Sure there are abuses, but there are abuses in everything in life.
The system here works. That's the bottom line.


EDIT:

Forgot to mention, my only charges were phone rental in the hospital too. :)

[Vinca]

14. A neighbor of ours had a relative visiting from Canada.

She became seriously ill and was rushed to a major medical center in the U.S. Canadian health care was notified of her status and they decided it was cheaper to fly a private jet to pick her up and take her back to Toronto for treatment than leave her in this country. Can you imagine? I'm told she got excellent care and recovered nicely. This country is definitely doing something wrong.

[underpants]

17. Oh can I totally see that being spun

BTW- yours is one of three great anecdotal posts on this.

I can see that story being spun to say that it is an example of waste and abuse-they would never mention that there is a cost SAVINGS even with the plane.

[Raster]

23. Right you are! This country is doing something wrong when it comes

to healthcare and that is allowing big pharma, big medicine and the insurance companies to run American healthcare as their private casino, with the odds stacked against the patient. There is no wonder that the American medical industry does EVERYTHING it can to trash any other system where the drug and for-profit providers aren't allowed to rape and pillage. Look at the new Medicare bill. What a mess. The only benefit for anyone is the providers. Certainly not the seniors and most certainly not the citizens who will ultimately pay the bill.

And irregardless how you feel about Hilary Clinton overall, her biggest sin and the reason the reich-wing has made her their number one target is because of her attempts to wrest control of American healthcare from the for-profit vultures. Healthcare should be a right not a privilege and it certainly shouldn't be a profit center.

[underpants]

25. deregulation and Hillary

LEt me start with Hillary
-I keep hearing about how "Won't it be great if you can take your medical history with you?" they even have ads for it (forgot the product). Well when they proposed that THIRTEEN YEARS AGO there was nothing but screams of "Big Brother" everywhere. Remember that?

Second-I started a thread here a long time ago about how it used to be. I have asked a lot of my older friends and such and they all said the same thing "We had Blue Cross Blue Shield" a monopoly/basically nationalized system that I think was regulated with a set level of Return on Investment (like utilities). Well the myth of deregulation (at least part of it is deregulated) got us less for more not anything close to the more for less through competition the line goes by.

Consider how well other "Deregulated" industries are doing and how the consumer has benefitted from them

Telecommunications
Energy trading
Airlines

[tenshi816]

46. Just wondering here -

Is Blue Cross/Blue Shield still around? That's the coverage my mother had when she was diagnosed with Stage IV lung cancer in 1997 and it covered everything she needed, including a home hospice care nurse, until her death at the end of 1998. I was so impressed with everyone I dealt with during the entire period of her illness. I live in England and I couldn't have coped without the assistance I had from Blue Cross in helping to look after my mother at that time.

[underpants]

47. Yes

My wife and I are covered by it through her job.

[tenshi816]

50. Ah, that explains something,

I think. Mom's coverage was through her work (she worked in accounting at the University of Georgia) and it continued after her retirement, although she had to pay a premium - which she said wasn't costly, although I don't know what the exact amount was.

I guess I'm not wrong in thinking that medical coverage isn't as straightforward as when my mom was diagnosed in 1997. Once more, I realize (not that I needed to be reminded) how lucky I am to live in a country with national health care.

[Bridget Burke]

21. A co-worker took early retirement & moved back to Canada.

She & her retired husband had some health problems. They weren't poor & had decent insurance, but expenses were about to get out of hand.

She'd retained her Canadian citizenship for just this reason. Otherwise, she would have loved to vote against Bush!

[Armstead]

26. Canadian care has problems . But none worse than us, and people get care

People have to wait ntoo lo9ng, etc. etc. etc.

But a more honest way to look at it is to set US style private care and Canadian system side-by-side, and see which has the least probnlems compared to the benefits.

Bottom line from what I can tell is that Canadians get care but have to put up with bureaucratic nonsense. In the US, people have to put up with bureaucratic nonsense, but they often don't care and/or are excessively burdened by the cost.

[Spazito]

27. It is interesting that all the Canadians who posted here do not

back up your supposition. Indeed, it is quite the opposite.

[hopeisaplace]

28. Personally I NEVER had any bureaucracy issues with my

health care or any of my families health care - not sure what that post was
pertaining too.
Hey our system isn't perfect, but I do know one thing - If I need a doctor's
appointment, I pick up the phone make the appointment, go to the appointment,
and if tests are needed, I'm not out of pocket. I can't imagine what it feels
like for some people in the US who cannot even CALL a doctor because they can't
pay for it. That borders on cruel.

[Armstead]

29. I'm going by what I've read and seen elsewhere too

I'm not criticizing their system. Just passing along what I've read and heard from others. (And not right-wing sources.)

Healthcare is inhrently convoluted by its very nature. Unfortunately tales of bureaucratic woe are inevitable in any system that is larger than a family Doc.

[hopeisaplace]

33. hey no problem,

my own experience has been fine,
4 babies, 2 surgery's in my life
received a bill for phone and cable while in the
hospital..no bureaucracy, no real problems.

We have coverage on top of coverage here..hubby has a plan at work
that gives us a lot more as well...eyecare, dental etc..., but if
hubby is laid off..we still have our provincial health care plan
so our health care is not out of pocket.

Also, we can tax deduct our medical expenses..eyeglasses, dental that's
not covered, prescriptions not covered, or anything else that was paid out of pocket. Receipts must
be attached to your tax return. For example, whatever portion of dental
that is not covered, is tax deductible, ..or anything else that may not be covered..
which, I'm sorry I don't know what those things would be because other than
our dental portion, phone or cable tv in hospital(<--not tax deductible)..I haven't had
anything else I've ever had to pay for.

[Armstead]

35. Once again, I'd prefer the Canadian Plan

I am not criticizing it. I'm just saying that all health care requires trade-offs.

[hopeisaplace]

36. This plan works pretty good for our family for sure,

I feel so bad for people in countries, who can't afford to pay for health care,
that are either driven to use savings, go bankrupt, or just don't go to the doctor
- it's so wrong to me.

[Armstead]

37. That's the US

Our system is a disaster and getting worse every day

[hopeisaplace]

39. I sure hope it gets better for you guys somehow someway...

Great people, in a great country with "bad leadership" all the way around.
I'm rooting for you. :)

[Telly Savalas]

89. There is not bureaucratic nonsense in the Canadian system.

Unless you call getting your health card swiped "bureaucratic nonsense".

[applegrove]

30. No discussion would be complete without Malcolm Gladwell's piece

Dept. of Public Policy
THE MORAL-HAZARD MYTH
The bad idea behind our failed health-care system.
by MALCOLM GLADWELL
Issue of 2005-08-29
Posted 2005-08-22
New Yorker Magazine

"....Skip

One of the great mysteries of political life in the United States is why Americans are so devoted to their health-care system. Six times in the past century—during the First World War, during the Depression, during the Truman and Johnson Administrations, in the Senate in the nineteen-seventies, and during the Clinton years—efforts have been made to introduce some kind of universal health insurance, and each time the efforts have been rejected. Instead, the United States has opted for a makeshift system of increasing complexity and dysfunction. Americans spend $5,267 per capita on health care every year, almost two and half times the industrialized world’s median of $2,193; the extra spending comes to hundreds of billions of dollars a year. What does that extra spending buy us? Americans have fewer doctors per capita than most Western countries. We go to the doctor less than people in other Western countries. We get admitted to the hospital less frequently than people in other Western countries. We are less satisfied with our health care than our counterparts in other countries. American life expectancy is lower than the Western average. Childhood-immunization rates in the United States are lower than average. Infant-mortality rates are in the nineteenth percentile of industrialized nations. Doctors here perform more high-end medical procedures, such as coronary angioplasties, than in other countries, but most of the wealthier Western countries have more CT scanners than the United States does, and Switzerland, Japan, Austria, and Finland all have more MRI machines per capita. Nor is our system more efficient. The United States spends more than a thousand dollars per capita per year—or close to four hundred billion dollars—on health-care-related paperwork and administration, whereas Canada, for example, spends only about three hundred dollars per capita. And, of course, every other country in the industrialized world insures all its citizens; despite those extra hundreds of billions of dollars we spend each year, we leave forty-five million people without any insurance. A country that displays an almost ruthless commitment to efficiency and performance in every aspect of its economy—a country that switched to Japanese cars the moment they were more reliable, and to Chinese T-shirts the moment they were five cents cheaper—has loyally stuck with a health-care system that leaves its citizenry pulling out their teeth with pliers.

America’s health-care mess is, in part, simply an accident of history. The fact that there have been six attempts at universal health coverage in the last century suggests that there has long been support for the idea. But politics has always got in the way. In both Europe and the United States, for example, the push for health insurance was led, in large part, by organized labor. But in Europe the unions worked through the political system, fighting for coverage for all citizens. From the start, health insurance in Europe was public and universal, and that created powerful political support for any attempt to expand benefits. In the United States, by contrast, the unions worked through the collective-bargaining system and, as a result, could win health benefits only for their own members. Health insurance here has always been private and selective, and every attempt to expand benefits has resulted in a paralyzing political battle over who would be added to insurance rolls and who ought to pay for those additions.

Policy is driven by more than politics, however. It is equally driven by ideas, and in the past few decades a particular idea has taken hold among prominent American economists which has also been a powerful impediment to the expansion of health insurance. The idea is known as “moral hazard.” Health economists in other Western nations do not share this obsession. Nor do most Americans. But moral hazard has profoundly shaped the way think tanks formulate policy and the way experts argue and the way health insurers structure their plans and the way legislation and regulations have been written. The health-care mess isn’t merely the unintentional result of political dysfunction, in other words. It is also the deliberate consequence of the way in which American policymakers have come to think about insurance.

“Moral hazard” is the term economists use to describe the fact that insurance can change the behavior of the person being insured. If your office gives you and your co-workers all the free Pepsi you want—if your employer, in effect, offers universal Pepsi insurance—you’ll drink more Pepsi than you would have otherwise. If you have a no-deductible fire-insurance policy, you may be a little less diligent in clearing the brush away from your house. The savings-and-loan crisis of the nineteen-eighties was created, in large part, by the fact that the federal government insured savings deposits of up to a hundred thousand dollars, and so the newly deregulated S. & L.s made far riskier investments than they would have otherwise. Insurance can have the paradoxical effect of producing risky and wasteful behavior. Economists spend a great deal of time thinking about such moral hazard for good reason. Insurance is an attempt to make human life safer and more secure. But, if those efforts can backfire and produce riskier behavior, providing insurance becomes a much more complicated and problematic endeavor.

....Skip"

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/050829fa_fact

[applegrove]

31. Canadian's health care is mostly paid for by sales tax on non food

items. On "non-necessities". Think of the teens at the mall with their parent's money. For every $100 they spend - $7 goes to pay for health care for all Canadians. A progressive tax if ever there was one.

[applegrove]

32. All Western countries... have a shared risk health care plan. That

usually means around 75% of health care is part of the public system.

More productive because business doesn't have to fork out anything. And the 7% sales tax on goods that they pay when they buy products - is a tax write off.

[underpants]

34. Hold ON! I have never heard that before

Okay so I am using this thread to educate myself---it is working.

Really? That is how it is funded? That is BRILLIANT!

Oh holy crap are we screwed.

[applegrove]

55. Yes. And if you pay $70 dollars to get your hair done every six

weeks - you pay $5.00 to health care.

[Armstead]

38. That's a great idea

[applegrove]

53. And depending on your poverty level - the government sends checks

4 times a year to return to you the money you spent on sales tax when you could not afford it.\

The businesses hate it because it lowers their sales. And they have to administer it. But really - with stores now open in most places on Sunday - they are doing okay with window shoppers.

Plus the businesses have no idea how much harder it is to administer health care plans for their employees. Dealing with and writing off 7% sales tax is much easier. Sure they all had to pay for upgrades to get the system working - but they benefit from employees who are healthier on the whole.. and do not go under if they have one very sick employee. In fact - they are not affected by at all if one person or a group of employees are unlucky enough to be very sick.

[iconoclastNYC]

40. Sicko - Michael Moore's latest movie is about the healthcare system

This film will focus on the American healthcare system, and will look at it through an inspection of the system of mental health care.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0386032/

[Cleita]

41. I also heard that busloads of nurses and doctors are crossing

the Canadian border into the United States to get better jobs. NOT TRUE!

[hopeisaplace]

42. I don't know very much on this topic except what I've seen on TV (lol!)

...so I take THAT WITH A GRAIN OF SALT. :)

But what I heard about this is that doctors will go south cause they can
make more money there - yep, that's what I've heard. They probably can make
more money in the states.

[Cleita]

43. And they'll find out that they will also spend more money here as well.

Actually, I have a rebuttal of that argument somewhere in the pile of papers I have on this. The number of medical professionals who come here from Canada is a small percentage consistent with the emigration rate from Canada as a whole. In other words, they come here for different reasons, and from a wide spectrum of professions, not just the medical ones. Reasons are usually the milder climate and the extra pay is a secondary incentive.

[hopeisaplace]

44. that could very well be

..it's an area I know very little on..it has been portrayed in Media
as a money issue (I think?)..but what you say sounds plausible too...

[Bridget Burke]

85. I've known 2 Canadian physicians who came to the USA.

They came to work at a hospital that does major medical research. Pay was excellent here, but they had come for professional development. Their duties included patient care as well as the opportunity for research. (Of course, good research is done in many countries.) They were not in "private practice."

Both have since returned to Canada. One explained to me that taxes were higher there--but you got more for your money.

Edited to add: I've known medical professionals from many countries here. Only a tiny percentage were Canadians.

[EVDebs]

48. Busloads of older Americans going to Canada for drugs!.....n/t

[Cleita]

51. That's actually a truer statement and it has been documented. n/t

[EVDebs]

52. I just love the irony of this 'free market' claptrap, don't you ?

sometimes monopolies are economically justifiable. The gouging from the old railroad days are why the state's Public Utility Commissions, like California's, were or still are called Railroad Commissions. The Robber Barons of the Gilded Age are back with an ideological excuse for every greedy stunt they pull.

[applegrove]

56. And now - your system is so sick - they are returning home. Health care

workers take years to teach. And so their is scarcety.

But so many people want to get into medical school that you can pick and choose. They don't have to be people who expect to have 3 homes by the time they are 45. They could be people who would expect to have two homes by the time they are 55. And they get the joy of working in a helping profession - and the joy of really helping.

[guidod]

54. My next door neighbor

is a Canadian citizen from Toronto. He says there is no problem with their healthcare.

[redqueen]

57. Had to recommend this thread.

There's no reason I can see why single-payer healthcare shouldn't be a plank in the Dem party platform.

[Telly Savalas]

90. The reason is because right-wing self declared "moderates"

are so fixated on not trying to demonstrate any tangible differences from the Republicans, that they overlook how much of a winner the health care issue could be if we'd only get off our asses and take it up.

[demgurl]

58. I am Canadian living down in the US.

I did have dual citizenship but got sworn in as Canadian before moving down here. Every time I go back to visit I take full advantage of the health care system up there.

If we ever have to declare bankruptcy because of our medical bills here, we will move up there and start over. What choice has this government given us? They do not provide health care here and then they have this bankruptcy bill that almost insures you will be in the poor house the rest of your life. As long as i have citizenship I might as well use it if we ever need a fresh start. I can see a lot more people leaving the country in event of bankruptcy.

As far as the Canadian health care system goes, I have never had a problem with it and have never heard of anyone who had a problem with it. My mother worked at a children's hospital all my life and I volunteered there for three summers. I met all sorts of children from burn victims to people who broke a leg to one small boy who had cancer. None of them complained about the health care and none of them paid any money. They got the best possible care as I did any time I needed health care.

One time I was visiting and I accidentally put my foot through a window. I needed x-rays, stitches and crutches. I paid nothing and the wait was a lot shorter than anything I have ever encountered down here!

[Canuckistanian]

60. Another story...

My wife had a congenital hip problem and needed a hip replacement 2 years ago. Her hip was almost non-functional and she was in pain whenever she was on her feet.

A doctor sent her for ultrasound and xrays and the decision was made, a hip replacement was needed.
This was in April. The doctor said she could be scheduled for the beginning of June. My wife decided to postpone the surgery until the end of June (she's a teacher and wanted to finish her year).

So, the hip was replaced at a hospital about an hour's drive from us. There was a major complication (her femur broke), so her convalescence was extended two weeks. We got a visiting nurse and a physiotherapist who came to our house every couple of days. She healed fine and now she's active again.

And the cost for all this, besides our own travel expenses?

$0

[Harper_is_Bush]

61. There is a very strong lobby trying to discredit Canadian healthcare.

Your insurance industry, for one.

Your pharmacautical companies, for two.

No, you don't have to wait 1.5 years for eye care. If you need an eye operation for cataracts, for example, you're waiting a matter of months. Cataracts are not life threatening. If you're eyes need immediate attention you get immediate attention.

That's the way it is with all the services, mostly. Elective surgery can take months to get. If you need something immediately, you get it. And it's almost ALWAYS quality care...state of the art.

The lobby trying to open it up to privatization is always talking about the mistakes and the delays that happen...that are bound to happen in any system.

And the best part...our healthcare system costs less per-capita than the US system. That's the kicker.

[Telly Savalas]

91. Hey! I agree with you on something!

Good post!

[samhsarah]

62. Bookmarking this thread.

Great questions, underpants. K&R

[Festivito]

63. My RW brother has a friend who had trouble during the transition.

The transition period when Canada started its current system. This is where photos were taken showing a full emergency room, that turned out to be during a flu epidemic.

My brother's friend's wife became ill, her access was delayed and she died. Sad. He did know them.

However, I do not trust my brother's relaying of any story. He ofter colors, within his own mind, anything that RW radio would not appreciate.

He, along with many like himself, will be incredulous of any transition, and any new system.

I had a Canadian friend who was a nurse. I often asked her about how long certain operations would take to schedule when I had scheduled the same for my mother or knew of a friend. Canada was always about the same wait as we had here in Detroit area, even when their system was in transition.

It should be noted that about two years ago, or longer now, Canada's life expectancy surpassed U.S.

[hopeisaplace]

64. I wanted to add another point as well...those who have less than I do

get the same health care I do...in other words, when I'm at the doctor's office
and there's a mom beside me with a sick baby I feel good living in country
where I know she and her baby will get care and me and my little one will get
care. Morally it feels right, it feels good to be a part of this kind of fairness.

[BigYawn]

66. I feel that my harder working brother is entitled to better care

than little old lazy me. It is only fair to him.

[hopeisaplace]

67. not really right?

..if that were the way to base health care
lazy versus hard working - then I have a list of
politicians that shouldn't be getting health care :)

[u4ic]

76. Absolutely!!

:thumbsup:

[Douglas Carpenter]

68. I've worked with lots of Canadian doctors, nurses, RT's and others

their standard of training and care giving is unbeatable

[u4ic]

70. As someone who has a chronic illness

and has been through 'the system', it is excellent, imo.

In fact, just today I was talking to a lab assistant as she was taking blood from me...on this very subject. People in the US with my illness know exactly how much each lab test costs. I have no clue. I can't imagine being on a fixed income and needing to shell out for frigging lab tests!

I have been to numerous specialists, and depending on their popularity, it can take longer with some than others. The longest was a couple of months, not years. GP's are in short supply in my province, and many are not taking new patients. However, we have walk in clinics everywhere, so there is always access to doctors.

A medically unnecessary MRI - waited 8 weeks (ie it was to rule out an unlikely cause).

I've had 2 surgeries in my life, and dealt with numerous broken bones, etc, all at no cost to me.

As I am on disability now, I don't have to pay my provincial premiums (they are completely subsidized for low income earners), or for prescriptions, eye care and dental.

A sister of mine has 4 boys, and in the space of one month (Dec), she had to deal with: son crushes his fingers in a workplace accident - within 20 minutes of getting to emergency he is already in surgery; same son two weeks later had a car accident and needed hospital visit; another son broke his ankle and required emergency care; and she needed an ultrasound and a CT scan.

I don't think I am jumping the gun to shudder at how much she'd be in debt if she was south of the border.

Yes, tweaking is needed, and I'm in a province that is cutting back healthcare $$$ to try and convince that private healthcare is needed.

Here is the Alberta gov's waitlist registry, that will tell you wait times for procedures: http://www.ahw.gov.ab.ca/waitlist/CategoryOverview.jsp?rcatID=18 Other provinces have them, too.

[hopeisaplace]

72. whoa, your sister had a lot to deal with in a short time..

I hope things are better for her...no system is perfect, but a system
that doesn't cause you to loose your savings, home or worse is better
than no system at all. I agree.

On a side note, I'm originally from Western Canada - lived in Alberta in the
70's. Family are from Manitoba - Now living in Ontario :)

[u4ic]

75. Thanks :)

Yes, things are better...her son lost a finger, but they were able to repair the others; he wasn't seriously injured in the car accident, thank goodness, and everyone else is fine. The son that broke his ankle has had numerous knee surgeries, and faces more (he's not even a teen yet). The frustrating thing...they're rednecks and vote Conservative...:banghead:

I'm the opposite...originally from southern Ontario, and moved to Alberta in the 90's (why I have yet to figure out...lol):hi:

I should point out to the OP that chiropractic services are partially covered by the gov't here, as is physiotherapy (a certain number of free visits for the latter).

[hopeisaplace]

77. Oh I know - Albertans seem to be conservative because that's the way

it's always been??? cause other than oil, why else...

The west poopoo's the east for being "liberal" and I think they
vote "conservative" just to be opposite. I really believe the average
person does not truly understand the fundamental principles that separate
left from right. Heck, I'll bet if you ask people, they don't even know
what left and right are - I'd put money on that.

I Remember when I was teenager, living in Alberta, Pierre Trudeau came to our town
- we lived just outside of Edmonton (Sherwood Park)...and the crowd gathered around
for a speech in a parking lot of a mall if I remember correctly - and people were booing -
there were a quite a few boos....I learned about Alberta being conservative country
very young - and that's when I began to get curious about politics and "what was what".

You know, conservatives or not, I love Alberta. It always still feels like home to me.
You guys need liberals like us to move there with ya..:toast: :hi:



edit: typos again

[Bridget Burke]

86. I've read a comparison between Alberta & Texas....

I think it was in the Penguin History of Canada--not within reach right now.

The Oil? The Cowboys? Wanting to kick many of your fellow citizens in your head--but staying, anyway?

I'm a Texan, by the way.

[Evoman]

73. Its fine

I'm also a Canadian citizen, and I love our healthcare system. I went for a check up last year, and they found one of my liver enzymes was higher than it was supposed to be. I've got back for follow up blood tests and I also got a ultrasound done, as well as some time with a liver specialist. It hasn't cost me at all (if you don't count taxes), and it was really quick getting in to see the specialist. Whats more, the increase in the enzyme was relatively small...not enough to be at all a serious concern, but the doctors still wanted to keep an eye on it and see what was going on.

BTW, I am fine. Apparently, it may be due to the heavy weight lifting I've been doing in the last year and a half, as well as my big increase in weight because of the lifting (I've gained 30 pounds of muscle baby...okay, and some fat).

As to it being taken advantage of, I don't know anybody who likes going to the doctor. Most people I know hesitate to go at all unless they have a serious problem. I hate going to the doctor, and usually only go for a check up every two years. I never go for colds or flus....thats just dumb.

Evoman

Edited for spelling

[hopeisaplace]

74. Even with coverage I hesitate to go too, I'm just to busy...

(except for today - I've been on DU a lot of today! *slaps own face*)

hubby tells me to go the doctor, and I say "yeah yeah I will" (and usually don't
unless I know I have to go)

keep getting healthy! :)

[u4ic]

78. Provincial wait times sites

Ontario: http://www.health.gov.on.ca/transformation/wait_times/wt_data/data_ontario.html
Saskatchewan: http://www.sasksurgery.ca/wait-list-info.htm
Manitoba: http://www.gov.mb.ca/health/waitlist/plan.html
British Columbia: http://www.healthservices.gov.bc.ca/waitlist/

I won't list all the provinces & territories...I think these are sufficient enough; you get the picture. ;)

[hopeisaplace]

80. As you know -one of the "platform items" of our Newly elected Conservative

Government....to reduce wait times - so long as he doesn't mess with the Canada Health Care Act
- trusting a "conservative" with health care could be expensive - and people are paying attention
to this, believe you me..always chatter about this. :)

edit: clarity

[u4ic]

81. You must have heard of this already...

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/01/27/alberta-health060127.html

Alberta Premier Ralph Klein says his government is ready to move forward with health-care changes that may violate the Canada Health Act.

Klein told reporters on Thursday that he has unanimous support from his Conservative caucus to introduce his so-called Third Way reforms, which would let Albertans opt to buy private insurance for non-essential procedures and allow doctors to practise in both private and public systems.

...

and the latest...

http://www.cbc.ca/edmonton/story/ed_thirdwaytues20060131.html

Alberta Health Minister Iris Evans will presenting her plans for health care reform to her cabinet colleagues Tuesday.

Third Way health care is aimed at reducing costs in the system by transferring some services onto private insurance.

Evans won't confirm any of the details in the package but she says there has been positive feedback from some of her government colleagues already.

Evans says the time has come for changes to be made. "I think that people are ready to take a look at what the public is really asking for – and that is more choice and some options," she says.



:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

[hopeisaplace]

82. Well that's a reason not to move to Alberta, lol :))

oh my. not surprising.
So many problems with this.
Gheesh I remember in Ontario when they took "Eye Check Ups" for Adults
out of OHIP - people were so upset about that - which essentially means that
you pay out of pocket for the actual Eye Check Up - $60ish (if you have a private
plan on top, then it could be covered on your private plan - covered on our private plan through hubby's work) We can afford the $60, but many can't -

I believe people are truly, on average, completely unaware of what "privatizing" really means to their pocket books. The newspapers, ads, etc..need to be clear with people
Privatization in Health Care means = You don't have private insurance, YOU PAY OUT OF POCKET.

[u4ic]

83. Exactly!

if you needed surgery, if it's a foregone conclusion; WHAT private insurer would cover you??!? :shrug:

They don't want to have to divvy up!!

One gets the sense from the media here that you just get private insurance, and away you go, with whatever procedures you want or need. Yeah, right!!