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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:44 PM
Original message
Poll question: Fix Democrats or new party?
The Democrats half-hearted opposition to Alito and silence on other issues means it's time to ask the question again:

Is the Democratic Party fixable or beyond repair?
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. (except Joe Lieberman)
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. I hope the fuckheads in Congress see this--I already know how it will
turn out.
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King Coal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. I propose calling our new party, The Jeffersonian Party.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
4. A third party candidate doesn't stand a chance in most states!
I know, Bernie Sanders is an Ind, but you can tell by the number of inds in Congress, there is little chance.

A third party candidate stands NO CHANCE in a Presidential election!

If you don't like that, work to change the system, but right now, our system of Gov't simply won't let that happen!
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. I voted
Edited on Tue Jan-31-06 02:50 PM by wryter2000
My ideal would have been reward our good dems and lean heavily on the dinos. I mean heavily.

I don't know if DLC is appropriate in regards to the filibuster fight yesterday. Three of the dems I always think of as DLC, DiFi, Obama, and Clinton, voted the right way. In contrast, are the Hawaii dems DLC? Are the Dakota dems DLC?
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
6. Support progressive candidates
hopefully they will be Democrats. I will be doing it from another party after, oh about 30 minutes from now.

Those Dems who listen and hold true to the ideals that made this party once perfect for me will have my support and work. Kerry and Kennedy will be hearing from me soon with a thank you for listening note and a small donation.

This is my statement to the party, I can't think of one other thing to do since I have tried everything as I watched them slide always to the right.
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Ksec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
7. Ostracize the neoDems. Cut off their money.
Make it hurt THEM when they stab us in the back. Read the Nation. They have got grass roots doing this . They will not support any candidate who isnt for ending the Iraq debacle. Neither will I and neither should any of you .We lost the court battle but in reality THEY lost, the neodems.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. the best way to choke off their money is 'clean money' public financing
The DLC has no base of voters.

None.

Without the big money donors, they will evaporate overnight.

California is moving forward with clean money and several states have enacted it with good results:

http://www.caclean.org/

Great overview at the California Clean Money site.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
8. Other
I won't vote along the line of DLC/non-DLC.

I will support Dems who best represent the true values of the party (for example, those senators who voted against cloture yesterday) and work against those who don't (as long as the only other choice isn't a Republican).

Most importantly, I will do anything and everything to get Congress back come this fall.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Welcome to DU!
Edited on Tue Jan-31-06 03:14 PM by jsamuel
:hi: :yourock:
but "democrat party" ?
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Hillary is shrill? When? Most people here have the opposite problem with
her.

She is trying to be bland and inoffensive to the right to a fault.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. on terrorism, we need to dare to tell the truth: part of solution is
not letting corporations dictate our foreign policy.

If we screw people in other countries on behalf of oil companies, sweatshops, and plantation owners, they will resent us and be more open to joining a terrorist group.

If we remove the greivance, we dry up the pool of recruits.

That doesn't mean that we forgive terrorist. We should find them and kill them when they attack us, and trace their funding back to it's source and respond accordingly. The Bushies have definitely not done the latter. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan funded and provided logistical support to the 9/11 hijacker and Bush ignored that and did nothing. Instead, he used it as an excuse to pursue an agenda to help out his oil company buddies.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. You may be a socialist but you really manage to hit most RW talking points
that stereotype Dems and the issues using their terms.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
10. Fix the election system, THEN
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
12. Democrats fail to learn how to fight from GOP
While a lot of what the GOP is doing is illegal and immoral, there are a lot of valuable lessons our elected officials could easily be learning from them.

These fall into two broad categories, what the right does themselves and what they tell democrats NOT to do.

What they do themselves:

  • they have a few simple, understandable talking points/ goals.

  • The goals are concrete enough that any idiot could see how they would be translated into actions.

  • there are coherent principles under their talking points:

    Business is good and needs to be unchained.

    In fact, you can tell what they care about by applying their own principles:

    If you love it, set it free. If you hate it, regulate it to death.

    If you love it, give it money (budget funding, tax breaks, subsidies, or contracts). If you hate it, starve it of money (Norquist's 'starve the beast').

    Therefore, they love oil companies and hate education. (but they don't ever say this)

  • they repeat them ad nauseum for DECADES until they become conventional wisdom.

    One of their biggest successes at this was the 'Social Security isn't going to be there when you retire' meme. They repeated this so often that people under 40 actually believe it, which is why the Bushies had some hope of passing their privatization scam.


  • they actually work toward these as goals (with the glaring exception of balancing the budget)

  • they scream loudly when they suffer a setback on these goals.

  • They do not fear public, even emotional, conflict in pursuit of these goals.

    Conflict is what makes people pay attention and get emotionally involved.

    If you just say something nice in a nice way, you make about as much of an impression as that Hallmark birthday card your grandma sends you with calligraphy and a water color duck pond on the front--none.

    If the opposition starts to complain or criticize, that means you have done something right, not wrong.

  • They do not pre-compromise.

    They start with what they actually want and make the other side demand that they water it down. Then they compromise only grudgingly. Democrats often start with a compromise position and by the time negotiations are over, nothing is left.

  • They understand that EVERY vote communicates their values

    Even if you are going to lose, you should vote your core values. Even if the other side complains about it, they are doing you a favor by telling voters what you will fight for.

  • They figure out where their opposition is getting support and destroy that financial base.

    Grover Norquist has said this explicitly. Making lawsuits more difficult not only does business a direct, obvious favor, but it starves trials lawyers of funds and trial lawyers give money to democrats. Anti-labor laws and the complimentary DLC effort to shed union money from the Democrats has a similar effect; with that money gone, the Democrats either shrivel or turn to corporate donors who they then become beholden to.

    Democrats should do the same. An ethical way to do this is with public funding of campaigns, and requiring TV to carry a set number of campaign commercials for free in exchange for their broadcast licenses. This would choke corporate money out of the GOP, and leave them with just the religious right (who would actually agree with us on a lot of economic issues like trade).

  • They treat communication as a primary tool, not an afterthought or a way to reward loyal flunkies with a job (that's what FEMA is for).

    If there was a GOP equivalent of Bob Shrum who ran the kind of shitty, dickless, forgetable commercials and gave the advice to a Republican he gave to John Kerry, we would not know his name because he wouldn't have made it to the presidential level. He would be the janitor at GOP headquarters.

  • They energize their base.

    We saw this most clearly in Kerry v. Bush. Kerry was aiming for the middle, to pick up undecided votes, and Bush was aiming to excite his base to get them out to the polls. While Kerry may have won some the middle, his base went to the polls more to vote against Bush than for him. If he had a less obviously dangerous opponent like Papa Bush, the base would have stayed home.

    The GOP does this with hot button issues like abortion or gay marriage, and put them on the ballot when they want people to show up at the polls. The Democrats could easily find a couple of substantive issues to drive people to the polls too, like raising the minimum wage or anti-corruption initiatives.

    If there was a 'No More Dick Cheney/Halliburton style cronyism' propositon ont he ballot, I'm going to the polls, and I'd probably vote for the Democrat too, no matter how bland or weak-kneed.

  • they talk about morals

    It is immoral to let people die so drug companies and insurance companies can make greater profits.

    It is immoral that a smart kid takes ten years to get through college because he has to flip burgers full time to pay for it, or go to Iraq and get a leg blown off to qualify for government assistance to pay for school.

    It is immoral to invade other countries to give the oil to corporations as we did in Iraq, or try to over-throw fairly elected presidents to give the oil to corporations as we tried to do in Venezuela.

    It is immoral that corporations that send our jobs overseas often pay no taxes and get subsidies.

    It is immoral for elected officials to go to work for businesses they should have been policing when they were in office, or letting corporations pick the heads of the agencies that regulate them.

    It is immoral to take from the poor and middle class and give to the rich.


The other category where Democrats fail to learn from the GOP is the advice they give us, or at least Democrats learn the wrong lesson--they actually take it as sincere advice. We should do the opposite in nearly every case. When they say:


  • 'Don't be seen as obstructionist,' we should be obstructionist. Think about it. You are out of power and don't control the media. If you do nothing, it sends the message that you agree with what's going on, or worse, that you don't even exist.

    If you consistently opposed the other side, even when that other side is popular, you have at least established a recognizable brand. People would know what you stand for and when they get sick of the party in power, they already know what you would do.

    The current 'rope a dope' strategy at best sends the message that Democrats would be less obviously corrupt. It also plays into the GOP meme that we are weak on defense. If you don't fight for your ideas, why should I believe you will fight for our safety?

    The GOP meme of the Dems being the 'mommy party' is largely reinforced, and the 'daddy party' is a nasty drunk and wife beater. If you run to mom for protection a couple of times and she just gets the belt for dad, you stop going to her and either kiss up to dad or just hide.

    That's why the right feared Howard Dean so much--he fought back and didn't look like a coward.

  • Don't engage in class warfare. Rush Limbaugh says this so loudly and at the slightest provocation that it should be a clue that it's an achilles heel for the right. Even Bush himself asked Cheney if they needed to give the rich ANOTHER tax cut.

    It is possible to say the right is pandering to the rich without being anti-wealth and success. We are simply asking them to make a fair contribution and play by the same rules as the rest of us.

  • Don't be partisan. This is just asinine. When someone says this, repeat the core values you are fighting for, and ask the public if you want someone to fight for those or not, then don't address it again.


  • Don't go too far left. Remember Paul Wellstone, the most liberal member of the Senate? This would have been Paul Wellstone’s final election ad:

    "I don’t represent the big oil companies. I don’t represent the big pharmaceutical companies. I don’t represent the Enrons of this world. But you know what? They already have great representation in Washington. It’s the rest of the people that need it.”
    http://www.ourfuture.org/onmessage/borosage/borosage_oct30_02.cfm

    That was such a losing message that the only way he was removed from office was a plane crash.

    He not only had a distinctly different message than the GOP, it was simple, obvious, and right.

    That’s what they are afraid of, and why they are laughing at us when we put up half-assed DLC candidates—because even if the DLCers win, we lose and nothing changes.

There are probably more that I’m forgetting. Feel free to add them.

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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
13. Starting a new party will do no good
It won't change things. The system is run by corporate interests. The difference between Repubs and the DLC is that Repubs embrace it openly. If we want real change, we will have to get corporate interests out of politics, not just form another party, because anothe party will be just as easily corrupted.
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KingFlorez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
15. A new party won't win anything
With a winner take all system for everything, no third party can win.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. yep--I put it up as a gauge of sentiment not because it's my first choice
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
20. Vote republican to punish democrats!
Lets just cut to the end result.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. you don't have to vote at all to ge that result
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
22. I voted other
because I really want to have it both ways right now...

1. I will be supporting progressive Dems and working against the DLCers very specifically from now on.

2. But also I will be supportive of 3rd party efforts, especially if there is an alternative to the Greens, which I see as too limited. I want a new 3rd party with a new more neutral name. I believe the Liberals will never truly be represented unless we form a new party or completely take over the Democrats (which I see as JUST as likely to fail as a third party effort. A third party might actually be easier than continuing to seek crumbs from the Democrats at this point, as they are so far to the right).

***If we had a third party option that was viable at the time in the foreseeable future that the Democrats betray us all for the absolute LAST time (assuming this isn't the last time)--then we'd be ready to just move in another direction more quickly.

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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
23. Support a real alternative
I'm throwing all of my support to the real solution to the world's problems...

The movements for Socialism throughout the world especially in Venezuela...

This country's a lost cause. The Empire will never "reform itself" or allow true reform of the rapacious socio-economic system they love so much; the system that supports and engorges the rich at the expense of all of the rest of us.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. empire is why you need to fix it. If you leave, it might catch up to you
If you go to Venezuela, it could turn out like Chile under Pinochet (who Grover Norquist openly admires).
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. Not if the recent past
in Venezuela is any judge. They already tried to overthrow Chavez the way they did Aristide in Haiti. The people of Venezuela, including a majority of the military, said "fuck you, bush!" and reinstated him.

It's happening. Damn it, you can't kill a great idea like Socialism for good. It's the better way, the next best step after this criminal capitalist cancer that's trying to take over the world.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. I don't think that's going to happen
in Venezuela. They bushies already tried to overthrow Chavez the way they did Aristide in Haiti. The people of Venezuela, including a majority of the military, said "fuck you, bush!" and reinstated him.

It's happening. Damn it, you can't kill a great idea like Socialism for good. It's the better way, the next best step after this criminal capitalist cancer that's trying to take over the world.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. hope you are right
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
25. We need both.
We need a competitive 3rd party as well as an effective Democratic party. There is no way to have a representative democracy be fair and accurate for a population as diverse as ours using only two parties. At the same time, we must acknowledge the fact that the two-party system is entrenched and would require a considerable amount of resources (or some creative new angle) to alter. The Democratic party isn't beyond saving, we just need to get it to serve us over corporate interests once again.
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jackpan1260 Donating Member (361 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
26. The people who want us to form a 3rd party the most are republicans
since Nader was such a success for them.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Ooooooooooooooooooooh
that old canard again....

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 02:13 AM
Response to Original message
31. Locking
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