The Parties are just alike... What a damn GOP lie.

[txaslftist]

I listen to this screed with bafflement when I hear it. "Ralphie was right, both parties are the same..."

Horse Manure. If Gore had been the president in 2001, we would not have invaded Iraq. The parties are not alike. If Gore had been the president, the Republican tax cuts would have been vetoed and deficit would not be there. The Patriot Act would not have passed. The Clear Skies Act (authorizing the poisoning of our environment) would not have passed. 2,200+ soldiers would not have died; 25,000+ would not have been wounded. Try telling their families both parties are the same. Gore would not have authorized torture or said he would ignore a ban on it. Gore would not have ignored his obligation to follow the law when spying on Americans. Gore's health care initiative would not have been a corrupt payola to the pharmaceutical companies.

Gore would not have appointed Michael Brown!

The GOP, being in deep deep doo-doo over Abramoff, Iraq, Delay, etc., etc, LOVES it when someone on DU says the parties are the same or that we ought to start a turd party or whatever. But when they're talking to THEIR base you don't hear them saying both party's are the same, do you?

Because they know the party's are different. We have different values. Our constituencies aren't the same. The Democratic Party's morals are different, and IMO better.

Sure, there are Democrats who go along with the party that is in power to mollify their conservative constituents. But they are NOT the same as the Republican pseudo-fascists who run against them. Sure, there are individual Democrats I can't stand.

But the Republicans are tearing the constitution, our freedoms, our economy and our people apart. They are literally killing us to retain power.

They aren't Democrats, hell, they're nothing like us.

[shance]

1. Show us where they are different.

n/t

[txaslftist]

3. I JUST DID. Read before you knee jerk.

[blm]

26. Gore would've READ HartRudman Report on Global Terror the day it was given

to him - Jan 30, 2001, and acted on its urgent proposals. No 9-11 would have been a HUGE DIFFERENCE, don't you think?

Gore would have selected prochoice, proworker judges not proFASCIST judges.

[unblock]

2. if the parties were so much alike, banana republicans would share power.

[aclog]

4. They are alike bc

one party is a shell that exists only as appeasement to the liberal-minded part of our society...ie the ones that are too smart to fall for jingoism and soundbites

Functionally they do nothing but rubberstamp corporate-determined policy

[txaslftist]

14. one party is a "shell"?

Baloney. I remember when that party was in power and the other party was lost in the wilderness. Now we are out of power and the GOP is dragging us toward an abyss.

We aren't a shell. We are the opposition, the resistance, the check to the balance.

[aclog]

18. not you

the representatives of the democratic party...senators, governors, etc

Tell me what % of the time they do anything other than slurp Bush dick? Talking the talk means exactly nothing

[Toots]

28. What have the Democrats not capitulated on in the last five years?

Bush* has succeeded beyond his wildest dreams. The way it works is when a billor any issue is put forth it is done so in it's most extreme form so after the debate and filteration process they basically get a substantial portion of what they want. Usually there is some form of compromise. Since Bush* came to office not only has what Bush* put forth passed but it was usually added on to by the Republican Congress. Not once was there Compromise..not once....The tax cuts went way beyond what Bush* initally asked for and they passed overwhelmingly. Name just one thing the Democrats did not capitulate on and remember that the Democrats also controlled the Senate for almost half the time Bush* has been in office.

[MH1]

34. ANWR & Social Security, just for starters. n/t

[ProudDad]

5. You're right, they are different

The Dems are spineless.

The repukes are relentless, ruthless and tightly organized.

Their basic economic values are the same though -- they're all hard-core capitalists.

[rman]

7. don't some 24 Dems have a spine?

[MrBenchley]

15. One wonders why someone who hates Democrats so

would clog a Democratic discussion board...but then the answer is obvious.

[ProudDad]

21. You don't know me

I don't "hate democrats".

I do have little time to waste on spineless weaklings when so much is at stake. This is not some little pansy-ass game of getting re-elected or looking good that those 19 Dem shits in the Senate seem to have played yesterday.

This country's already Fascist. Pansy-assing around AIN'T GONNA DO SHIT about that fact or overthrowing the fascists in charge (and I include the DINOs in that fascist label too). Only serious, progressive demands and radical action will!!! Only a working class who recognizes that these pricks are the ENEMY not their friends will change things.

I don't care whether they call themselves democrats, republican, greens or larouchies. Anyone who's pro-corporate-capitalism, who sits by while the poor and working classes are fucked over, who vote for obscenities like the "bankruptcy bill" or the war in Iraq (voting for funding IS voting for that fucking war), for cutting off poor people from a basic safety net, is a scum-sucking pig no matter what letter is beside their name.

By the by, It was my understanding that this board was for progressive discussion and action not just DLC clones... At least that's what it was when I joined it over 4 years ago!

[MrBenchley]

24. I don't see much reason to

Again, if you think the Democrats are spineless weaklings, don't let the door hit you in the ass.

"Pansy-assing around AIN'T GONNA DO SHIT about that fact or overthrowing the fascists in charge (and I include the DINOs in that fascist label too). Only serious, progressive demands and radical action will!!! "
In other words, the usual pouting and stomping of feet that one associates with the peurile far left. Rotsa ruck getting any beyond the usual bunch of chowderheads involved.

[davidwparker]

6. That's an easy mistake to make when Democrats vote like

Republicans.

[Just Me]

8. I agree. That is another RW myth. The Democratic party, as a whole,...

,...is practically the OPPOSITE of the dictatorial pukes.

Sure, there are SOME Dems that are comparable to dictatorial pukes. But, no way in hell the parties are comparable. Our CBC proves that along with, AT LEAST, another several dozen Democrats.

The Democratic party DOES, as a whole, give a damn about our people. The Republicans don't give a rat's ass.

[Yollam]

9. Okay so the dems are less corrupt and incompetent.

Big deal. Ideologically, the parties have never been closer, and the dems have NEVER been more sold out to corporate interests and the military industrial complex. Why do you think Clinton did almost nothing to reverse the disaster of Reaganomics? Sure he balanced the budget, but what about bringing the top marginal tax rates back to 70% where they belong? What about real single-payer health-care, instead off the giveaway to private insurers that Hillary concocted as a sure-fire way to make both right NAD left-wingers reject it?

Don't get me wrong, I would much rather have Gore in office right now, and I'm sure that Gore wouldn't have allowed the Reichstag fire on 9-11.

Democrat voters are TOTALLY different from repuglican voters, but elected democrats, for the most part, are so similar to the rethugs it's pathetic. Just as sold out, almost as likely to vote for a war or other atrocity, but more timid and ingratiating.

Whatever...

[txaslftist]

10. "I'm sure Gore wouldn't have allowed ... 9-11."

You can post that, and then come back and say the parties are the same?

That's stunning.

For that alone he should be president, aside from the fact he was actually elected to the job.

[Yollam]

12. I think that Bush is uniquely foul even among republicans.

I don't think a McCain or a Forbes would've pulled it either.

There's a reason why the nazi-loving, CIA-spook Bushes are called "The Bush Crime Family" and "BFEE"

[ProudDad]

23. Gore would have done NOTHING

about the overreaching power of corporations in this country.

There are a few cosmetic things he would have done like probably keep 9/11 from occurring, not go to war in Iraq, slightly re-shore up the safety net that Clinton started to destroy and bush has nearly destroyed. He would have been more "efficient" at "managing" the status-quo without totally bankrupting the government.

But he still would allow the corporate-capitalist system flourish. And that's the REAL enemy -- a system that will NEVER allow justice and equality to take hold in society.

[cyberia]

27. The Democrats brought us NAFTA

As long as they push pro-corporate policies, they are nothing but Republican-lite. Triangulation is a nice way to same "imitation Republican".

It's true that not all Democrats are like that all the time, but enough are that it is virtually impossible to wage an effective guerilla war against the Republicans. If the Democrats had half the moxy that the Iraqi "insurgents" display, we would have driven the Republicans out of Washington by now.

[LincolnMcGrath]

29. I hear that allot.

In the break rooms

On the shop floor

Working the phone banks

Across the bar

In the the laundromat

I always try to point out that NAFTA was a Bush 1 initiative, and that BC had little hope but to try and make it better after losing congress. Problem is, most folks don't buy it.

[cyberia]

31. Why should folks buy it?

If Clinton hadn't been on the corporate payroll, he would have moved heaven and earth to scotch NAFTA. He also wouldn't have gutted welfare.

[LincolnMcGrath]

32. I hear you.

I always lead the debate away from things that BC did that are bad, and re-frame the discussion toward 23 million jobs, PLAs, and the like.

"MOST" union members and working folks now now see GWB for what he is, A threat to their livelihood.

[ProudDad]

22. They were pretty damn corrupt until 1994

The main difference being that most of the Dems always seemed a little embarassed about their corruption. The repukes seem to think that their corrupt ways are the spoils of war.

Don't forget it was a Dem controlled House and Senate that torpedoed the first good chance at universal health care ever in this country proposed by another Dem, Clinton. Of course, their plan which pandered to the insurance industry (that was his major financial contributors) was also a factor in the demise of Hillary's plan.

Don't be fooled, if the Dems get in charge again, they'll be nearly as corrupt as the pukes are now unless there's true campaign finance reform -- PUBLIC financing of elections.

[Uncle Joe]

11. It is a sign of Republican desperation,

they are afraid of the coming storm such as Abramoff, the unauthorized wiretapping of Americans, their own lustful power grab endangering our Constitution, the investigations that have been stalled by their cronies in congress, this is all coming to a head.

There will be either a legal accounting or a political one, possibly both. The best thing they can do today is to fuzz up the picture for political purposes, they are in deep trouble and they know it. They have betrayed everthing America stands for, if you think America stands for anything positive.

[txaslftist]

13. Exactly. It's GOP spin, and depressingly effective.

They're going in the toilet, and they're determined to drag us with them.

[Greyhound]

16. The GOP didn't come up with this one and yes, they are different

but in style only, they have both pushed us toward the same end. If Gore had received that which he won, we would not have invaded Iraq, that is true. The tax cuts would have gone through with a few scraps for the masses, but essentially the same. He would've been much better environmentally, but that is an issue easily dealt with. Torture, no way. Spying, I'm not nearly as sure as you seem to be. The bread and butter issues would have gone much the way they have, Gore did support GATT, NAFTA, and the H1-b and L-1 visa programs, indicating the same pro-corporate attitude that has been carried on by Hillary Clinton and her ilk.
So they are different, just not very.

[radio4progressives]

17. Half of the Party Senators Voted in Lock Step with the Repugs yesterday

So maybe all the Dems are not Repuke Lite, only half of them are.

it's a "half full/half empty" argument, reich Her Wolfy?

[neuvocat]

19. They used to be

but not anymore. Let's face it folks, we need to give credit where credit is due. For the first time in ages we finally have a major opposition party again. I left the dems back in '02 because of how concilliatory they were.

They thought that they were being practical by not opposing a "wartime" "president" but they should have been out to skin his sorry ass alive. People lost respect for them and voted for the other guy and gal instead.

At least Howard Dean has done a great deal of good so far (compared to his predacessor) but there's still a great deal to be done and the citizens of this country need to get involved in order for those changes to continue.

[Boojatta]

20. Ordinarily, people lie because they want the lie to be believed.

However, if the audience actually believes that Republican candidates and Democratic candidates are the same, then why would the audience prefer to vote for a Republican candidate?

One possibility: the message is only for those who are likely to vote Democratic.

Another possibility: the lie is part of a programmed sequence of lies. The sameness allegation is just the first step.

[txaslftist]

25. the lie is part of a programmed sequence of lies.

It is the last step, though.

The program:
It is completely untrue that the GOP did __.
(when proven)
It is true, but it was an honest mistake.
(when shown deliberate)
It was deliberate, but it was harmless.
(when harm shown)
It was harmful, but it is a partisan attack.
(when partisanship argument disproved)
It was true, deliberate and harmful, and the independent prosecutor is independent, but the Democrats do it too, both parties are equally to blame.

Maybe you can't trust us, but you can't trust them either.

If the audience believes the Republican program AT ANY POINT in this dynamic, the Republicans win.

Most Americans are naturally cynical about government (the result of 20 years of propaganda while the Republicans were out of power). They may not buy any of the other GOP arguments, but if they buy the last one, we still lose.

They know it. And it is depressing to see how many people buy the last argument.

[Armstead]

30. How about -- The Parties are too much alike?

They're obviously different, but there is too much overlap today.

Ralph Nader is just a symptom. If you were to read much of Ralph Nader has said and proposed -- not knowing the source -- it is exactly what should be considered the mainstream of a real Democratic Party....Basic Liberalism 101.

Corporations have acquired too much power. The economy has become monopolistic, rather thanh competative and diverse. Politics has become oriented towards protecting the interests of the wealthy and powerful at the expense of everyone else. Our government has given up on its basic role in promoting the common good. "Free trade" globalization is eroding the base of our middle class, while also screwing the poorer nations by making them into colonies. Ownership of the media has become concentrated in too few mega-corporations....etc.

Or listen to Bernie Sanders, and compare that to your average centrist Democratic politician, and honsetly assess which resonates more accurately regarding the plight of America's working/middle class.

[jonnyblitz]

33. I agree. nt