Who are these "Christians" that support Bush?

[JMDEM]

Bush obviously panders to the "Christian" Right. But who are these people, and what do they believe?

The area where I used to live was overflowing with these "Bible thumpers". You couldn't get away from them. Hell, in one stretch of road you had TWO Baptist churches literally side-by-side. I can't remember their names, but it was something ludicrous like "First Bapist Church" and "Real First Baptist Church" or some such crap. Down the street was the "Evangelical Church" -- as radical right as you could get, yet a big group broke off to form the "King of Kings" Church, which was even more rabid.

Our next door neighbors were "Born Agains". They stopped watering their lawns because the end of the world is so close. They have prayer meetings about every other night. I went to a few out of neighborlyness. I also went to some other meetingx of some radical offshoot of the Seventh Day Adventist Church.

In both of these meetings, it was explained to me who "true Christians" were. What a surprise. The following churches are NOT considered Christians:

The Catholics
The Lutherans
The Episcopalians
The Mormons
The Greek Orthodox Church
The Unitarians (of course)
Jehovah's Witnesses (of course -- they don't believe Christ was the savior)

Members of these churches will burn in hell.

The two bible meetings were split on the Pentacostols -- one group considered them Satan worshippers. The other group considered them way cool.

These are the people Bush panders to. Geez -- if they have their way, some 80% of those worshipping Christianity (let alone non-Christian faiths) in this country will find themselves on the outside. These folks are rabid.

The "born agains" are basically a cult -- and a rapidly growing dangerous one at that. Like every cult, their goal is to take over everything. Yet we stop dead in our tracks of accusing them as such, because maybe we too are Christians, without realizing that they don't think we are Christians at all.

I'm not even sure where the Moonies fit in with all of this.

[Ilsa]

1. They believe some people are undeserving of basics because

if they aren't wealthy, it is their own fault.

They believe in coathangers for women who are pregnant and don't want to be.

They need some anti-psychotic drugs if they are the followers. If they are the leaders, they need to be imprisoned.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

12. are you sure they are following this teacher, Ilsa?

21Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

22And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

23And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

[Ilsa]

19. That's my point -- those are not Christ's teachings. THey also eat

up these nasty books like the Prayer of Jabez and take scripture and twist it to meet their own devices. These people cannot do as Christ commanded them, except for the part before his ascension into heaven when he gives the Great Commission. They love running around and forcing their doctrine on others, especially at the point of a gun.

I don't think these want to deal with reality. They want to remain closeted in their own "safe" world of conformity, the coming end times, and reassure one another that everyone else is wrong about everything. They can't be wrong because they got their message from Jesus and Jesus is never wrong.

[Warpy]

2. Well, they're Calvinists, not Christians

since they've completely forsaken the teachings of Jesus Christ in favor of the loopy determinist rubbish that Calvin came up with and that rich men find so comforting.

Yes, they're definitely a cult, probably one of the biggest this country has ever been cursed with, and one of the more dangerous ones the world has ever seen. Don't hesitate to criticise them. Castigate them as being unchristian in philosophy and practice. They're not Christian. They're Calvinist.

They're just as nuts as the Branch Davidians and for much the same reason. Don't pussyfoot around these people. Let them know that you know who and what they really are.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

13. since they LIKE being called CHRISTians...

will we give them that honor at DU? I call them CASHtains, practicing CASHtianity.

Their golden rule is ALL about GOLD! Do it unto others real hard before they have a chance to do it to you.

[Doohickie]

Now WAIT a minute

I'm a Presbyterian, which is a calvinist church. But don't confuse me with those bible-thumpers!

[Bridget Burke]

29. There are some off-the-wall versions of Calvinism.

A cousin-in-law was not allowed to attend Macalaster College because it was run by those "Liberal Presbyterians." I'm sure you represent the majority.

Even the teachings that equate wealth with Godliness generally applly to the money one earns. Inherited Wealth is NOT the same.

[Doohickie]

24. [deleted]

[Democrats_win]

3. Note, Jehovah's Witnesses DO believe that Jesus is the savior, no trinity

They see him as the son of God, not God. They don't vote and are not political. One thing they point out that your post demonstrates too, is that these groups of christians don't get along with each other.

When Jesus was asked how we'll know his followers, he said you will know them by the love they have amongst themselves. So it would appear that these christians who are constantly bickering don't meet that description.

[JMDEM]

5. That's not what I was told

"When Jesus was asked how we'll know his followers, he said you will know them by the love they have amongst themselves. So it would appear that these christians who are constantly bickering don't meet that description. "

They told me that Jesus said "I will know them by their Bush for President bumper stickers". I never did find that statement in the Bible however.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

16. What is fair for the TREE is fair for the BUSH!!!

HERE'S A GOOD LESSON FOR THIS "GENERATION OF VIPERS."

In this quote, we se how to tell a lying snake from a Christian: KNOW THE TREE BY IT'S FRUIT!

10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

[Berry Cool]

4. It's kinda scary, isn't it?

From my experience, "Born Agains" think that the only way to be a "real" Christian is to have a great monumental experience AS AN ADULT in which you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. It has to be this huge revolutionary experience--a gigantic conversion, after which you run around trying to convert everyone else you know and spend all your time talking about Jesus.

They don't consider even people who grew up in a Christian church--be it Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Methodist, whatever--even those baptized in one and confirmed in one, even regular churchgoers--to be "real" Christians. They think such people are just going through the motions, following empty traditions and rituals rather than really "living a Christian life." To be sure, about some of these people they are absolutely right. Some people DO go to church more because it's what their family has always done, or because it's a social activity, than because they have an active involvement or interest in a spiritual life. But that's certainly not true of all people in these religions, and I think to assume it is and that thus they are not "Christians" is insulting. It also implies that somehow, their religion is not "good enough."

The irony of it all is that while some of these churchgoing adherents of other religions have led fairly normal and boring lives not too much out on the edge, the "born agains" are oftentimes people who had messed up their lives fifty-six ways before finally having their great "conversion experience." Usually an addiction is involved: alcohol, drugs, sex, money, crime, maybe all of them. It is the "conversion" that they credit with turning their lives around.

Not that there's anything wrong with people deciding to clean up their act because of a religious change of heart. But what I wonder about sometimes is whether, in becoming such devout born-agains who claim they think of nothing but Jesus 24 hours a day, they have not simply traded one addiction for another. Their religion becomes yet another thing that takes over their lives and enslaves them.

[John Grevstad]

7. Remember Billy Graham

I remember Billy Graham's "Crusades." Ya think someone would have picked up on the negative connotations of that moniker. Miles of people would step up and be "Born Again." That was all it took to be at peace and obtain your pass through the Pearly Gates. I think that was the forerunner to the easy path to Christ -- at least for our generation.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

9. When you think about our culture it really is not

so surprising that these denominations play upon emotion.

First, consider the level of promiscuity and wild oat sowing that a LOT of people experience in their younger years. This is a culture where if it feels good do it, screw it, snort it. So when they get tired of it, they turn to an experience that seems transforming to them.

And then there is reality TV and Springer and Maury. People of limited intelligence are encouraged to shriek, share their basest secrets, jump around like idiots. These folks look for similar emotional release in their churches.

The churches are symptoms of a society with no control. On the one hand they attempt to exert control over the culture, and yet they are also beset by the same excesses the culture exhibitis.

[Pied Piper]

10. Trading one addiction for another (n/t)

[hatrack]

23. Jesus as cocaine . . . or booze . . . or heroin . . . or whatever

It's just another fix for the Chinese Menu Christians I've known (who sure as shit sound exactly like these guys). When Jesus becomes the mental equivalent of just another line, that's one sad, pathetic moment, but that's apparently what he is for most of these people.

[Metta]

6. His supporters are the ones without Christ in Christian.

Obviously.

[JMDEM]

8. An early experience

When I was about 16 I had the hots for a cute young lady I went to school with. I kept asking her out and she kept turning me down. Then finally she invited me to a "group event" with some friends of hers.

It turned out to be a born-again Bible thumping brainwash the youth affair. There was this jerk there -- probably in his early thirties -- crew cut, big jaw, looked like a marine sergeant (this was the early 1970's when crew cuts were definitely not cool)...

He was blathering about the 10 commandments and how we had to follow every one or go to hell... So, being the troublemaker I am, I said "well, the 10 commandments say not to kill, and the 10 commandments say to obey your father and mother. So, what if your father and mother tell you to join the army and go to Vietnam and kill people?"

I expected to trip the guy up. His reply just shocked me. He flipped out. "Those godless communists in Vietnam deserve to die! They aren't even really human beings. It is our DUTY as Christians to KILL them before they spread their godless ways to the whole earth!"

I'm not kidding. I just got up and walked out. So did one other person.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

14. Christ in a sense promotes a mild form of Communism....

I mean, it's not vintage Karl Marx but it is all about sharing and communal efforts. His teachings aren't really very compatible with capitalism and strongly resemble the lessons of Buddha and Confucius, which I feel proves their validity.

[Rocknrule]

11. I would be considered "born again"...

but not like these people

I accepted Christianity when I was 11. My parents were religiously neutral and wanted me to choose my own faith. Now, however, I'm wondering if it's possible to follow Christ without being a Christian. I don't want to be associated with people who think that Christianity begins and ends with persecuting gays and voting Republican. In other words, I believe Jesus is the son of God. These people believe George W. Bush is the son of God.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

15. i do it rocknrule

But I don't go to Church with the Nazi CASHtains. I go to UU with Pagans, secularists, gay Christians and others not welcome in the Holy GOLDEN CASHtain Church... Jesus liked hanging with the outcasts of main-stream religion in His day... If it's good enough for Him, it's good enough for me!

My favorite part is where he actually went to a CASHtain Church and it reads like he was not too happy with them turning God's House into a whore! Imagine a carpenter's son kicking over the tables of buyers and sellers in Church, while he yelled at them... These CASHtain fools actually pray for Him to return! JUST WAIT!!! LOL

[John Grevstad]

22. He was one of the guys

I also wonder if a Fundamentalist pastor has ever done a sermon surrounding the "den of robbers" incident in the Gospels. They only concentrate on the passion and leave the social message behind.

[Benfea]

17. The majority -NT

[thatsrightimirish]

18. The President of the University of San Francisco

Who is a priest came to speak at my Catholic high school. When asked what is the biggest social injustice today he didn't say abortion or stem cell research. He said food stamps and medicare being cut. That made me happy.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

21. what made me happy, back in the 60's

Was when Catholic Priests not only participated in but also instigated Anti-war protests... I bet that made the PRINCE OF PEACE happy.

[ncteechur]

20. Pseudo-Christians support Bush. Jesus was a liberal.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

26. actually

IMHO, He was so far to the left, we'd call Him a REVOLUTIONARY! They considered Him that then and He'd be one now.

Guess what? Romans and established religious leaders did not take kindly to His preachings, with the Kingdom of Heaven as a cornerstone of His ministry.

That Kingdom is another thing these Modern CASHtain Bushists take out of context as they use the term to try controlling others, while claiming they somehow have the Divine enlightenment to create a PHYSICAL Kingdom, here on Earth. Christ refers to The Kingdom well over 20 times in Mathew alone. In almost every instance he refers to a Kingdom in our hearts. That is the Kingdom I seek.

Right after His baptism, Jesus says, "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." In this statement we see either a liar, a 2,000 year mistake or a Divine statement. His words teach archaic Jews and modern Christians to love EVERYONE and seek the innate Kingdom immediately.

[CatholicEdHead]

25. All religions have their extreme nuts

they are small but very vocal in the Catholic Church. They are the "tradionalist" or "orthodox" movement right now. Some want to return to all Latin, but most just excel on following. They are mostly concerned with every little movement in the mass service and church building. Everything in there has to be perfect in their eyes and they scream to high heaven if it is not. They also want everyone to be like them and agree 100% with Rome on everything, no questions asked, or you are heterodox heratic.

I mostly read them on the Catholic World News comments (www.cwnews.com). They are also rabid Repubs and any mention of a Democrat or any issue besides abortion and gay marriage they could care less in the latter and foam in the mouth for the former.

[MrPrax]

30. That's arguable...

"they are small but very vocal in the Catholic Church"

On the whole of the Church, they are actually the majority, if you include non-Western Catholics.

Besides a institution that restricts women so completely has far more in common with 'fundamentalism'...in fact, most fundamentalists don't go that far...so it's a bit much to pass off firm Church doctrine as athan 'traditionalist' and 'orthodox' movement...

[TNC4DNC]

27. Yes, he does pander to the Christian Right....

However, I think it would be good for us to remember there are Christians within the Democratic party too. Personally, I don't understand why the Christian Right is so adament about following Republicans, when everyone knows they are for the rich. I think it is unfortunate that they present themselves being so political oriented towards that side of the spectrum.

As far as the factions you presented, yes there are MANY factions within the Christian religion, but that is because of the mistakes of "man." God never intended for there to be so many factions, really there is probably not a lot of difference between them, and certainly not as much hate as you think there is. So, a neighbor told you once that all those other groups are not true Christians and they will burn in Hell? Well, I am sorry but they are wrong. God doesn't look to bring one whole faction, and exclude another. What he is looking for is that if you believe in his son Jesus, and acknowledge him as you savior, and strive to keep his commandments. There are people like that in every church no matter what kind of faction it is.

Being "Born Again" is not a cult! It is what I just described. Nobody is forcing you to worship, believe in God, even God gives you that choice, so that doesn't quite equal trying to "take over everything" in my view. Do we want to convert people, yes of course, but not someone that isn't willing and doesn't have an interest.

[Bridget Burke]

31. Fundamentalism and/or Evangelism are not the problem.

The Religious Right Republicans are something else again. There's some info here:

www.theocracywatch.org/

Their main goal is political power.

[TNC4DNC]

33. I know their main goal is political power.

That is why I mentioned that when I first wrote my reply. I don't need an article to tell me that. I think it is very unfortunate that they have married themselves so closely to the Republicans, because they (Rep.) are obviously using their sense of moral obligation to help them win elections. Moral issues are all they want to talk about during a campaign, then once they win it all goes away except for abortion.

[BoneDaddy]

28. This topic drives me nuts....

I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic HS and a Jesuit University. Most of my friends and all of my family are Catholic. I do not consider myself Catholic anymore for various and sundry reasons.

What bothers me so much is that the vast majority of my Catholic friends are Bush supporters. They don't even realize how bad they are being used, (primarily for support on the abortion issue) by the "christian" fundamentals who consider Papists to be something close to demons and anti-christians. What fools!!!

[abex]

32. they don't follow jesus's sermons too well. they're not christians

they're the diametric opposite of Christians.

[TNC4DNC]

34. I wouldn't say that to the very last man...

that they are *ALL* completely the "diametric opposite of Christians." I think many of them do follow most of the principles of Christ, and try to live that way. However, what I have a problem with are the people they support to run our government. They (most) will be thoroughly convinced that Bush, and other Republicans like DeLay, etc. are so wonderful and sssoooo CHRISTIAN! But they are just listening to what they are saying when they are trying to get their vote, and not what the persons actions are, or what they say behind closed doors. They are blinded in a way, only focused on abortion, abortion, abortion, and not on other things that Jesus himself would have opposed that the Republicans are doing. I could make a list, but I am sure you know what they are. They just ignore that stuff.