The DNC just called. I think I'm off their Christmas card list.

[Missy Vixen]

I apologized to the fundraising guy, then I spent five minutes telling him how angry I still am that we had the votes for an Alito filibuster, and we can't even count on members of our own party to vote in the Democrats' best interests. He sounded a bit resigned, like he'd listened to multiple callers like me this evening.

I love Howard Dean, but I am tired of appeasers.

Julie

[liberalhistorian]

1. From now on, I'm going

to call them "Chamberlain Democrats" in honor of the Great Nazi Appeaser himself, Neville Chamberlain. I think that's more than appropriate, especially for the chickenshit DINOs.

[Clark2008]

48. That's why many of us call them the Vichy Dems

Look up Vichy, France in case you don't know the history.

But, yes, it's similar to the Chamberlain Democrats.

:hi:

[EC]

2. Are we beginning to hurt all the new exciting candidates coming up?

I'm thinking that the ones up for re-election already have their money, but the ones at DNC are the new recruits that Howard Dean brought up and promised support. So what are we doing?

[madfloridian]

5. It is getting out of control.

It is really too upsetting to come here lately.

[katinmn]

7. Getting the message through.

Sometimes cutting off the money stream is the only way to be heard. This might make the other Dem leaders listen more closely to Howard Dean who is more in touch with the grassroots.

I imagine a lot more money will go directly to candidates.

[madfloridian]

9. You just said cutting off money to Dean will make the others listen.

You really said that.

"Sometimes cutting off the money stream is the only way to be heard. This might make the other Dem leaders listen more closely to Howard Dean who is more in touch with the grassroots."

I have said that was what was going on, I don't think anyone believed me.

The only thing that will accomplish is getting him to do what he has to do to keep the party going.

I am stunned. The DC Democrats absolutely LOVE it when you guys withhold support from Dean. They did not elect him anyway. They know there is no way to please the folks on the internet who are getting so intolerant....and they love it when you don't donate to the DNC.

[katinmn]

32. This is not an attack on Dean.

But the DNC is the face of the party. Do individuals have any other way of clearly communicating their frustration with the party?

Without getting angry, please suggest other effective channels for people to express their frustration.

[madfloridian]

36. The DSCC and DCCC and the DLC ,which is a think tank.

I did not take it as an "attack" on "Dean", I took it as something very deep and involved going on.

I took it as a total misunderstanding of the change that could be happening, and I fear that a lot of people with good intentions are being used.

[katinmn]

47. Ask Gov Dean how we should express our frustration

Since you didn't offer any suggestions, I'll make one.

Perhaps he could send out an email to everyone on the lists while this is still fresh in everyone's mind.

I realize Dean is in a tough spot. He has the ear of the grassroots but there is a disconnect that shouldn't be allowed to fester. He is building a national grassroots effort but it is being thwarted by the establishment which is perceived as being anti-grassroots.

Dean offers an alternative to the top down communication of the DSCC/DCCC and DLC. I think it's time for some dialogue. People need reassurance from him that they are still on the same page. The sooner the better.

[madfloridian]

49. In this case it is the grassroots using a Democratic forum to thwart.

I am sorry, but let's call it like it is. It is exactly what is going on.

The grassroots think if they hurt him, the party will listen. That is the biggest bunch of BS that someone is feeding you guys.

You do what you have to do.

[katinmn]

50. I am not trying to hurt Howard Dean! I like Howard Dean!

He has the ability and the power to reach out and mobilize people.

Just sayin it would be a very good time to hear something from the man.

[madfloridian]

51. I have your quote from last night.

It was a shame.

[katinmn]

55. Your blind loyalty prevents you from facing a real problem.

There is a disconnect with progressives. They are being ignored and they are tired of fence-sitting. If something isn't done SOON to rectify, more progressives who feel ignored will leave permanently. Are you of that group that says: "Just leave then" or do you think it is worth articulating the vision once more?

[enough already]

33. The "intolerant" ones are the appeasers in DC

who continue to cower to the nazis on the right.

[regnaD kciN]

22. Cutting off money to Dean's DNC...

...will only make the other Dem leaders stop listening to Dean altogether. After all, if funding drops dramatically on his watch, it be taken as proof that Democrats are disgusted with him and the direction he's taking the party.

Sure, that might be a false diagnosis, but it's the simplest explanation, and will almost certainly become the "conventional wisdom." And, even so, it will be impossible for us to convince anyone that Dean's approach is working if the results seem to show the exact opposite.

Really, there are times where the joke about a Democratic firing squad being one that stands in a circle couldn't be more accurate.

:grr:

[DaveinMD]

53. cutting off money to Dean

will just make others in the party want to replace Dean.

[freefall]

18. We can donate to them individually. We don't have to deal with the DNC.

I like Dean too but the party has let me down and I'm not willing to give my money to it.

Here is someone to help if you are so inclined. Carl Seeler is running for US Senator in Rhode Island and has called for the impeachment of *. I donated earlier this evening.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-47,GGLD:en&q=Carl+Seeler

There are many other progressive Democrats out there. We can give our resources to them and ignore the Party establishment. Who knows we may even take back the party and the Congress.

[EC]

19. But doesn't DNC groom them, don't they need money to do that?

[madfloridian]

20. Right, everyone needs to head out on their own..

Just head right out on their own. The DC insiders would love that, the DNC would revert to the old way.

Good thinking. That'll fix em.

[The Backlash Cometh]

31. Maybe Dean is going to have to work harder and give us

an a la carte list of the candidates that he wants to support. Let us decide if they're worth the money.

[marions ghost]

34. Dean is trying

to make changes at the state level. He has put some DNC money into borderline red states to support new Dem candidates. So I think he's trying and should be supported in this effort.

At the same time I do understand those who just feel like they give money and give money and they aren't getting anything for it. Especially when so many elected Dems in Congress apparently pay no attention to the progressive direction that (I'm convinced) the majority of people want to see.

In this culture the ONLY strong leverage that the average person has is to withdraw monetary support. Complaining alone does NOT do it. Everyone will have to look into themselves to see if they choose to support individual candidates but not the party. Lack of support WILL send a message to the party (but not destroy it by any means). So I think this could work to (finally) get the message across from the grassroots.

Personally I'm going to cut it both ways. I'm going to support the Dems to a point, but look for new
options.

[mod mom]

42. Direct your $ at those candidates, not at the party at large.

[madfloridian]

3. I give up.

A lot of us here have explained over and over that the DNC had nothing to do with the filibuster. That was the senate. Howard Dean as much as came out and said the word, said Alito should be stopped.

But because one of the largest Democratic boards disses Dean for the damn Senate caving in, support is being withheld.

Go to the DNC website and look up what the various sections do.

And then if you want stop supporting go ahead.

[wisteria]

6. It's frustrating isn't it? The anger should be directed at the DLC

Dean and the DNC support the people and the grassroots efforts.

[madfloridian]

11. Just admitted that hurting Dean will get the other Dems to listen.

I am disgusted. This is hurting all of us.

[wisteria]

14. I agree, we need grass roots money . How can their thoughts be

so twisted? Dean and the DNC are becoming a victim in all of this.
Hurting Dean will not get the other Dem's to listen. Giving Dean money will get the other Dem's to listen. Withholding money hurts all the Dem's including the majority who voted for the filibuster.DNC money goes to them too.

[DaveinMD]

54. hey I agree with you

100 percent correct. Its so rare we agree I just had to celebrate.

[wisteria]

4. The filibuster had nothing to do with the DNC, Howard Dean

said he supported it. Not giving money to Dean and the DNC, you are playing into the hands of the DLC, they were the ones behind not filbustering.
i would say - give to the DNC but not the DLC.

[EST]

8. I dunno-

Dean and the DNC are just about the biggest forces we have going for us, right now. I'd like to think their biggest job is grooming and supporting the new candidates, coming up now, who are not heir to the days when there was more civility in government and who recognize reality when they see it.

[madfloridian]

10. Read some other forums. They are trying to hurt the DNC and Dean.

It is their goal. They think he will go 3rd party, but he won't. If he ever did it would be a party with moderate Republicans and moderate Democrats.

They are trying to hurt the party.

[newblewtoo]

52. You are correct

I have to agree with you Dean is a populist not progressive. Vermont has many progressives, check with them, he was hardly a progressive Governor.

[Bryan]

12. You've got to be kidding me

Perhaps I'm oversensitized to this because I work in a contact center, but when the DNC has someone call me, I give them whatever I've got.

However you may feel about our feeble representatives, when you don't give money, you're not sticking it to the Cowardly Democratic Establishment, you're shafting some working schmuck who's probably making under $10/hour and has a quota to meet and a list of two or three hundred numbers left to call that day.

These people aren't fatcats, they're waitstaff. I say, give 'em $5 or $10, and include the earful along with it (and passing along a word of praise to the supervisor on duty wouldn't go amiss either).

Not to mention that the less money Dr. Dean has to work with, the less effect he has...

[skipos]

13. Yes! Lets withhold support from dems so we have an even smaller minority

and then we can get mad when they can't get anything done so we withhold support from them so we have an even smaller minority and then we get mad when they can't get anything done etc etc etc.

:eyes:

[Goldensilence]

17. you're all right

i say give that money to the green party. Or the socialist democrats.

[quisp]

15. HEAR! HEAR!

I was less than thrilled with milqtoast Kaine's response. I wish I could get taken off their X-mas card list, but I live in red 'ole Virginia.

[wisteria]

16. You are hurting the Senators that voted for the filibuster by not giving.

This is no way to get back at the cowards that didn't go along,and it is a hell of away to say thank you to those that did.

[regnaD kciN]

21. All you're doing is hurting Dean's attempt...

...to remake the party as a more grassroots, progressive organization.

When DNC donations fall because of ill-advised boycotts such as this, it will be held up as "proof" that Dean and his policies are "failures." The prescribed solution, of course, will be to replace Dean with a leader who is "moderate" and "responsive to the center." In other words, hand the party back over to DLC types who court big business and disparage "liberal activists" like us. :eyes:

If you have to protest, the effective way is to withhold contributions to the DSCC in favor of funding individual candidates among the "steadfast 25." Punishing Dean's DNC is counterproductive and will only serve to allow the "business as usual" faction to marginalize us further.

[madfloridian]

24. Well spoken words.

:hi:

Whew, I am worn out. Time to head out of here.

[madfloridian]

23. Here are posts I had earlier in the week. Trying to explain.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=277239&mesg_id=277239

Trying to explain the roles of the various parts of the party.

Knowledge is good, and being perfect is impossible. I am working to try to change the party from within. Even though I get made fun of while I do it.

This one is about Dean trying to get the party to fight back. They don't want him as chair anyway, and when you withhold support from him....they love it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2414661

[depakid]

25. Dean needs to find a graceful way out

Being associated with appeasers (some of whom backstab him) is neither good for the Doctor- nor in the interests of the Democratic wing of the Democratic party.

Dean made a mistake getting involved with these folks, IMO. They're not going to change unless they're held accountable and/or defeated in elections.

Dean really needs to get back on the campaign trail. With all that's happened- he'd win next time, especially if he aligned himself the Clark.

[madfloridian]

26. Well, I can sure enough tell you this.

If the grassroots stabs him in the back because he did not go 3rd party like they wanted last year...if they hurt the party by not supporting his efforts then I can almost guarantee he would not go and form a progressive 3rd party.

Would you join up with folks who tried to destroy your chances to change things? I would not.

[depakid]

27. I don't expect him to go 3rd party

Didn't want that last year, either.

He's had his go trying to reform the party from the inside- and it's not going to work. If anything the Dems have gotten even WORSE- they're percieved by a large majority (including just about everyone in my grad school program) as more pathetic and spineless than ever.

Dean however, is not. At least not yet.

But the longer he's associated with perrenial (risk averse) losers- who seem to want nothing to do with winning on the issues or in a nationalized campaign, the less credibility he has.

He'd do better both for the party and for the country by getting back on the campaign trail and back into the DINO's faces, where he might actually be able to shame them into acting like Democrats again.

[madfloridian]

28. Pretty bad to call him failing already, while withholding support.

Pretty bad.

[depakid]

29. The evidence is what it is

He may be able to raise funds- but he's not going to help win elections for a party that seems determined to do whatever it takes to lose.

[The Backlash Cometh]

30. I hear you.

They are not an organized party, and as long as that continues, they will never be able to defeat the Republicans.

[caligirl]

35. At around 4 pm I also got a call for $$ and said the party can'teven

round up enough dems to filibuster Alito, minus the southern dems, get rid of Schrum, get rid of the DLC, and get rid of Lieberman.
I told him I want Gore to run in '08 for POTUS and I would be focusing in on Cali's gov race this year.

If the dems won't even get on one page to support Kennedy and Kerry in an Alito fili., I find it difficult to accept requests for money.

Where is their planning? where is the party discipline? where is the leadership? And you want us to donate $$ when you can't speak with one voice?

[Radical Activist]

37. Not donating to the party is one way to change that.

Only donate to candidates who stand up for your values. That will force the party to recruit more of those type of candidates.

[VonDoomPhd]

39. Agreed.

The Leadership Council is out of touch. They still believe that the path to victory is appeasement, Bush-lite, etc. They continually try to reclaim the center of political debate but what use is that to us or the country when the center has been pushed so far to the right? The center does not need reclamation, it needs to be redefined.
Howard Dean isn't to blame. And witholding money is not the answer.
There are true progressive candidates out there. What's needed is a rash of victories by democratic candidates that goes against the DLC conventional wisdom. As stated above, when that happens it will force the leadership to amnend their plan of attack (though I doubt they have any "attack" plan at all now.)

viskovich2006.com

[madfloridian]

44. Hey there, here you go.

DNC = Howard Dean and the National Party (Organizing for US in all 50 states for success in 2006 and 2008)

DSCC = Senate Democrats (If you're mad at a Senator, redirect your contributions to Howard Dean and the DNC)

DCCC = House Democrats (If you're mad at a member of Congress, redirect your contributions to Howard Dean and the DNC)

[madfloridian]

38. Read this. Clear and simple.

Posted by Debi in another thread, permission to share.

This tells who to support and who to target.

DNC = Howard Dean and the National Party (Organizing for US in all 50 states for success in 2006 and 2008)

DSCC = Senate Democrats (If you're mad at a Senator, redirect your contributions to Howard Dean and the DNC)

DCCC = House Democrats (If you're mad at a member of Congress, redirect your contributions to Howard Dean and the DNC)

[mzmolly]

40. .

:nopity:

[mod mom]

41. Just got the same call and the guy was rude to me. I said my $ will only

go to candidates who I think are fighting for the values I hold like John Conyers , Barbara Boxer and Paul Hackett. I told him that the election system was a major concern of mine and I was disappointed with the Dems not bringing up the corrupt system. I said I live in Ohio and was mad that the Dems did not fight for their voters who were robbed of their votes. He said that there was nothing wrong with the election system. I said the vote was rigged. He said no it wasn't. I told him to go talk with John Conyers and the House Judiciary Dems legal staff. He said "Yeah, yeah, yeah "in a very condescending manner. I promptly terminated the call.

[madfloridian]

43. You tell em....

Let's fix that party.

"DNC = Howard Dean and the National Party (Organizing for US in all 50 states for success in 2006 and 2008)

DSCC = Senate Democrats (If you're mad at a Senator, redirect your contributions to Howard Dean and the DNC)

DCCC = House Democrats (If you're mad at a member of Congress, redirect your contributions to Howard Dean and the DNC)"

[July]

45. I got that call from a snarky woman who wanted to argue with me.

When I told her I was disappointed in what happened over Alito, she said "O-o-o-o-h, but even when we've just elected a Democrat as governor of New Jersey ?" I slowed down and said, "I JUST TOLD YOU I am talking about what happened yesterday." It went downhill from there.

[madfloridian]

46. I hope you told her off really firmly.

Wow. I hope you were very firm with her.

And which group was that snarky woman calling for:

The DNC the DSCC or the DCCC

[seabeyond]

56. i donate every month. i want repugs out. n/t