It is over folks

[nadinbrzezinski]

Its over. The elections in 2006, you say we will take the house, I say Diebold. They won't be clean, they will be another sham. by 2008 nobody will recognize this country and the President will be declared a President for Life. Monday was the time of decision and the so called opposition party punted. We have Feingold saying that Bush has a pre 1776 mentality at Daily Koss, that is nice, it should not be him saying it but every fucking elected official who has taken an oath to the Constitution, pure and simple, regardless of party. But they don't have the backbone. What is more... I now believe there is extreme collusion at the highest levels of government

So the Demos don't have power... that is an excuse, for they don't function as an opposition party.

Does this mean I won't vote in the sham both in June 10th (Primary) and the sham in November? I will vote, but I expect my vote not to count. I expect the Nazi party to take even better control of the House and Senate and for those bodies to be dissolved at a later date by the President.

Do I believe there once were differences between the parties, Yes.. in fact if you look at individual members, absolutely, but at the highest levels... I hate to say Nader was a prophet.

Get ready for the dark night, because it is now upon us, and when we emerge from that dark night the bodies will be piled high and the country might not even remain as such.

What is worst, we don't have the back bone either. While the Nazis get a fuller grip on power, the little guys aka the people, watch the super bowl.. So it is over... and it is time to start to think how to survive in a police state, fuck hoover, for they are listening to this, but the reality is... I won't see real freedom in my lifetime. And yes, the thought police will be coming out of the woodwork soon.. see that bill of rights, they are now using it for toilet paper... see the constitution, it has been fully shredded... and yes, it is over... they won... now it is time to figure out how to scratch a living in this new police state called the United States of America.

[hiley]

1. that is what AmeriKA will be doing too

watching the Super Bowl..
meanwhile some of us know exactly what is coming.

[thinkingwoman]

2. I'm a fat lady

but I'm not singing.

It ain't over by a long shot.

[LynneSin]

146. You and Me both

:bounce:

[banana republican]

154. The Fat Lady Ain't Singing.... It ain't over till its over...

and it ani't over till I say so

Signed

G.O.D.



so what if I have an attitude; it's only a small attitude....

[thinkingwoman]

156. Hey if you've got it

flaunt it.

Small is way big enough for a G.O.D. complex. :evilgrin:

[cali]

3. If you seriously believe all of this

and it's not just a moment of hyperbole, I suggest you leave for Canada or the Netherlands now. Honestly, the fear mongering going on here is just the other side of the coin. Are we in troubled times? Yes, but it's not as troubled as the McCarthy era. Not even as bad as the Nixonian era. Whatever happened to "the only thing we have to fear, is fear itself"?

[thinkingwoman]

4. Some people

prefer to be afraid. Honestly. They feel better in constant crisis mode.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. If you even knew me you would understand

this is not a hyperbolic post or a fearful post.

Been in places buddy that I don't recommend for you. I have known real fear. This is called reality... and the reality is, very dark indeed

[cali]

12. Right. I don't know you

but what you've sketched out is not reality. And personally, I doubt it ever will be. What you expressed are your beliefs. What I expressed are mine. That's perception, not reality.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Will see

I am sure many germans in the mid 1930s believed as you do... that it would never get that bad... we are now about the equivalent period. I expect things to accelerate.

Ah yes Santayana comes to mind, "those who refuse to learn from history are condemned to repat it..." And Upton Sinclair also come to mind, with his screed, it could not happen here... well it is... as he very astutely said it would.

[omega minimo]

23. Perception, Reality, History

"All this was inspired by the principle--which is quite true in itself--that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods.

It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously.

Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation.

For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. These people know only too well how to use falsehood for the basest purposes."

-Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, chapter X "Why The Second Reich Collapsed

[thinkingwoman]

13. Oh please

so have I.

I've been sexually assaulted, mentally and physically abused, and I've lived the last 6 years in constant fear of a stalker with a successful past.

Don't preach real fear to me buddy. Been there done that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Then you are confusing fear for reality

that is the way this looks to me at this moment, that very dark curtain is quickly falling down across the country.

[thinkingwoman]

56. just because you say it's so

doesn't me it is.

Your OP is your opinion. You're entitled to it and have the right to express it.

Disagreeing with you doesn't mean I'm confused.

[Telly Savalas]

82. Well, shit. If there's no hope

then don't you have better things to do with your life than post on a political message board?

By your own admission, it's a total waste of time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. The people who were members of the White Rose

Society knew it was over too... they just had the guts to continue the fight, the quetion is, once you admit the current sytem is not working what ARE YOU intend to do about it?



Now I will say this agaon DENIAL ain a river in egypt

[rhett o rick]

104. I am sure some on the Titanic said the same as you. nm

[rhett o rick]

108. Deleted by edit. I posted in the wrong place. nm

[thinkingwoman]

143. Oh wow...

that made me :rofl:

Thanks! :hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. If I coudl I wold be leaving

that said it does not meant I have stopped fighting, just accept the reality of what is comming and what is comming is a very long night... oh and one more thing, what good will it do if I leave for Canada? Of the Netherlands for that matter? And no, this his hot hyperbole. When historians look back, after the curtains come back up.. Monday will be seen as a seminal moment.

[radio4progressives]

20. Cali - whatever it is you're smoking, i'd like some too please

i grew up in the fifties and the 60's. those were "dark" times, but not as dark as it is now. and watergate? that was picnic in the park compared to what is going on today.

[cali]

25. What I'm smoking is immaterial,

it's what I'm reading that counts. Just finished Haynes Johnson's book about McCarthyism. And growing up in a certain era doesn't exactly qualify one as an expert. The persecution and spying that took place during McCarthy's unfortunate reign was as bad as what's happening today. And we survived it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. did we have people declared enemy combatants

who were thrown in the brigg and the case went to the United States Supreme Court and they are still arguing about Habeas Corpus? I did NOT know that (Padilla Case). Did we literally pick up thousand of people, many with Green Cards and throw them in prison and never inform their families or lawyers/ I did not know that. Yep things are just as bad as McCarthy, thank you for the correction.

[cali]

36. Yes what happened with Padilla was wrong

and the Government recognizing that the court's weren't going to go along, have changed their tune and are going to try him. Yes, the arrest and detention of thousands after 9/11 was terrible. Are they still there? No. As far as detaining people goes, how about the thousands held in Prison camps during WWII? Any camps like that now? Have all Arab Americans been so detained?
And no, I don't wear rose colored glasses and I do know a bit about hx. I'm hardly optimistic about the state of the country, I just recognize that we've come close to the edge before, and pulled ourselves back. That's also history.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Many people are STILL missing from

the post 9/11 days.

Oh and the reason why there were no detention camps, the rank and file of the military at that point said you do that, we are laving, many of those people have since left the military...

That said, we are closer, far closer to the edge than at any previous point in US history... far worst have been done and continue to be done... this is the darkest period in US history and the population, no, not you, joe six pack, are accepting it for they "feel" safe

[cali]

40. Sources please.

Make claims like these, you need to back 'em up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Go ask the American Arab community, they have said this

And at this point I no longer do the research for people, but you will NOT find it in the US News and World report

[cali]

44. As I expected

Nothing. I didn't ask you to do research, I asked that you source some pretty strong claims of malfeasance. You couldn't. Honestly, if scores of people were missing from this dragnet, don't you think that Amnesty International or the ACLU would be broadcasting it, or are they also an extension of bushco? Nevermind. Don't answer that. You've shown that you're willing to make accusations without backup.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Yes I cuold the Arab American Communty

go ask Habash and the rest...

[nadinbrzezinski]

129. Somebody else did the research for you

you still think I am full of it?

by the way there are still thousands missing from Katrina... the NYT does not carry the story... am I also full of it on that one?

Thought so...

[radio4progressives]

73. What do you think of thousands of disappeared citizens on us soil?

under the guise of "fugitives" from justice, ten thousand reported to have been arrested across the country in one operation.

Over the past 4 and five years I've seen at least two different occasions where this kind of operation was actually reported in mainstream press.

I can't find the other article where the number of "fugitives" reported to be 20,000 u.s citizens. But this article below notes over 147,000 have been picked up in these operations since the begining of their gestapo progrom.

these arrests, co-ordinated operations of so called fugitives begs a lot of questions that needed to be asked and answered by the public and more of it from the media, but very little attention to this has been given.

Only under a Gestapo style Police State can these events occur. Tens of thousands of people swept up across the country, never to be heard about again. Now it could be that these were real "fugitives" - but if they were real fugitives, and their locations known to authorities, why conduct their arrests in this fashion?

I think these were operations to test the public reactions.

And only the media and the police would know what the public reaction is because i haven't seen any further mention of these events, but this is just one on a list of so much else.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002242061_dragnet15.html

Thousands seized in large dragnet
By Richard B. Schmitt
Los Angeles Times

WASHINGTON — In an operation that was equal parts police work, public relations and lobbying, the Justice Department said yesterday it had conducted an unusual 168-hour sweep with state and local authorities that yielded the arrest of more than 10,000 fugitives wanted for murder, rape, kidnapping, robbery and drug offenses.

The sweep, accompanied by camera crews whose footage was aired on television news programs shortly after the arrests were announced, netted 162 murder suspects, 154 alleged gang members and 106 unregistered sex offenders, as well as guns, drugs, cash and real property.

Eighty-one of the fugitives were apprehended in Washington state.

The statistics were rolled out at a news conference at which officials said the exercise was an opportunity to show the benefits of cooperative traditional law enforcement in an age of terrorism — and to score points with Congress.

The roundup was funded under a program Congress established four years ago requiring the Marshals Service to help state and local crime-fighters clear the streets of the most violent criminals. The program has netted more than 147,000 fugitives.

cont... http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002242061_dragnet15.html

[The Magistrate]

164. What Is Your Objection To This, Ma'am?

This is simply the tracking down wholesale of persons with outstanding criminal warrants, including flight from bail and parole and probationary supervision. It is not that hard to evade capture in this country, if a person is familiar with demimonde existance and has a degree of nerve, so that the issue of a warrant by no means necessarily leads in short order to an arrest.

[radio4progressives]

180. think about this again...

if there really are this many american fugitives from justice, rapists, murderers, bank robbers etc - and their locations and identifies were actually known - but were not picked up the moment their persons and identities were known - but instead waited for a mass scale arrest operation to be scheduled?

that doesn't strike you as just a little bit strange?

it does me, and i think if you considered the actual implications of such an operation, it should make anyone concerned.

Personally, i think they set this up as a test to gage public reaction to sweeping of tens of thousands of Americans across the country in one operation. Those new Haliburton/KBR huge contracts to build massive detention centers here on our soil, recently reported should scare the bejessus out of everyone here.

we all agree that this is the Fourth Reich in operation right now. Mass scale disappearances is not a new phenomena in the world, and unfortunately we've engaged in the same thing during World War II. but we've also condemned that activity and we look at the former Soviet Union and Nazi Germany with vile and contempt, not only for the inhuman horrors that we learned about, but for the apathy among the people who apparently did not raise a loud hue and cry against the RISE of the Third Reich and it's activities of disappearing populations that were considered "criminals".

Are these people really fugitives? has there been any follow up reports, who were these people, "these fugitives from justice" - which cities were they located?

Yes people should be concerned imo. very very very concerned.

[The Magistrate]

189. There Are Definitely That Many, Ma'am

Persons who are themselves peaceable and law abiding have no idea of the extent of criminal dilligence and the porosity of the police system.

Operations like this begin as a task force handed a tremendous pile of warrants, with instructions to clear as many as possible within a certain time. The arrests are conducted in well-publicized mass raids in the hope of gaining some effect from the "head on a pike" principle. The idea is to plant in the mind of someone dodging a warrant that he may not be as safe as he thinks he is, and to possibly deter someone from flight by the reminder they might get caught, and if they are the punishment will be worse. Criminals being mostly impulsive types constitutionally endowed with a sense they are invulnerable to consequences, the morale effects are not usually so great as is hoped, but as the strategy may have at least some portion of the desired effect, it is persevered in.

Police agencies often watch a good deal of criminal activity, for the purpose of spreading a wider net and securing stronger cases. Cases of trafficking in various contraband items are a common example. Such operations are often watched for weeks or months, the crimes recorded and logged, but no arrests made until the chosen day, when an attempt is made to sweep up everyone involved.

The thing is dirt normal practice, and really has no wider implications, except perhaps this: if political action is ever really criminalized here, similar proceedures doubtless will be employed. Persons who consider themselves revolutionary radicals would be wise to brush up on real trade-craft, and the organization and operation of underground activities.

[radio4progressives]

77. You're not aware of these cases over the past 5 years?????????

:wtf::freak::nopity::

[burythehatchet]

101. cali, the irony of your thought process is the one

that leaves me shaking my head. Why? Because inhherent in your logic is the presumtion that we know the worst of what is happening. That is utterly laughable. There are two ways to look at the current state of afairs. The first is your way, and the second is to imagine that what we have learned is just the tip of a massive icebeg. For example you might say that 9/11 was a terrorist attack on the US and that the government didn't "connect the dots". Others may look at the unanswered questions about 9/11 and believe that the storyline the media pushes is complete and utter bullshit.

So when you make a statement about "backing it up with facts", you have chosen your approach. I might suggest that you possibly reconsider.

[TankLV]

71. My sources in the military support your assertions, unfortunately.

It will come as a shock to those who refuse to believe what we know.

[nadinbrzezinski]

128. I know

[rhett o rick]

110. With Padilla, torture, spying etc. the "government" is pushing the

envelope seeing just how far they can go. After years there is finally some push back about Padilla, but no public outcry, hardly any public care at all. Same with torture and spying. There are internment camps but not in this Country that we know of.

[UL_Approved]

95. You seem to forget WWII or the Trail of Tears...

One small note to remember: we have had concentration camps many times in this nations past.

During WWII, we locked up all people of asian descent. We took all of their possessions, land, and homes. We even forced them to perform slave labor.

For the last 150 years, we have had Indian reservations. These are free-form concentration camps. They have poor land and terrible social abuses to keep these people in. These people were also used as slave labor.

And lets not forget the African Americans. These people were openly held as slaves. They were taken as prisoners and distributed like cattle for centuries. Later, they were kept in an economic prison as a spiteful response to the Civil War.

This is a critical time in this nations history. This may be the definitive moment in the history of the United States of America. What goes on here is far from over. We have yet to get past the stage of indifference. You forget that this is the country of great expectations. People here are beginning to wake up and smell the bullshit. And many people here will not stand for it. Many more than in any other part of the world. We can still muster up support for the continuance of this country. And many people will come out that you are not aware of.

If the heat shuts off, and the lights go out,
if the refrigerator fails to keep our food,
if the television loses signal and goes gray,
and if our homes get taken from us all,
and if our cars are taken from us too,
then on that very day
there will be holy hell to pay.

[onenote]

160. gee during world war II, FDR ordered thousands imprisoned

here in the USA. Anything approaching that happening? Has there been anything equivalent to the riots at the Democratic Convention in 1968 and the subsequent trial of Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin, et al.? To the attacks on the Black Panthers? To Kent State? Anything approaching the bombing of black churches and lynchings in the south or the murder of Chaney, Goodman, and Schwermer in Mississippi? Anything approaching the red baiting and black listing of the 50s when citizens lost jobs and a climate of fear ran rampant? People today speak out by the millions...in the 50s people were afraid to speak out.

This administration is fucked up. Badly. But don't romanticize the past. It was ugly. Uglier than today.

onenote

[onenote]

159. I don't think you were paying much attention back then

We still haven't reached a point today that matches the red scare of the 50s or the diviseness of the 60s.

This administration is totally fucked up. But throwing up your hands and saying nothing can be changed through elections or legal processes is giving in to them.

onenote

[Doctor_J]

42. It's way worse than McCarthy or Nixon

The new patriot act will permit the Gestapo to arrest anyone who shows up to protest tHis Highness. People have been penned in "1st Amendmetn Zones" for several years now. The proof is now available that the admin committed high crimes in PlameGate, SpyGate, the run-up to war. Voter fraud and intimidation are now a matter of public record. And no on eis going to be held to account for ANY of these crimes. And as a final nail in the coffin, the tv, radio, and newspapers are all in cahoots wwith the criminals who committed all these heinous acts.

McCarthy's stuff was playground games compared to what's happening now. You can be optimistic if yuo want, but you should at least do it a realistic framework.

[cali]

50. Your ignorance

is showing. In both the fifties and the seventies, spying on Americans was rampant. The Patriot Act is not a done deal. Your claim that no one will be held accountable for Plame, NSA or anything else is simply your prognostication. Quite simply, we don't know yet. It's plain out ridiculous to accuse every media outlet as in cahoots with the administration. In fact, it's as ridiculous as the freeper claim that they're all instruments of the left. Let's see, who exposed the NSA domestic spying? Oh, that's right, the NYT, at times a lousy, lazy paper, but not one that's hand in hand with bushco. I know, their call for a filibuster of Alito was really a rovian plot to pull the wool over the eyes of liberals. Paranoia is NOT reality based.

[radio4progressives]

78. You're right about the spying in the 60's & 70's

much has been written about it.. i have personal knowledge about it.

but here's recommended read for a detailed, inside look at this:

Secrets, The CIA's War At Home, by Angus MacKenzie published in 1997 by California University Press ..

read all about it.. excellent primer.


However, it is impossible to deny the scope of what is going today as being FAR MORE GREATER than even the rampant domestic spying on anti-war activists and groups, publications and so on that occured at that time (and never really ended).

[Doctor_J]

83. You must have been reading a different post than mine

I didn't say there wasn't spying in the 50's and 60's. What I said was that the current cabal is in it 10 times deeper than the government was back then. Name a time in the 50's or 60's when an admin bigshot outed a CIA agent and wasn't punished for it. Name a time when peaceful protestors were put in cages. As for the media not working for smirk, what planet do you live on? NYT exposed the spying a year after they knew about it. Bush is on record as asking them to spike stories, and having his requests granted. And who was the biggest cheerleader/whore for the war? Judith Miller, who it is very clear just printed what the WH told her.

Please list for me what publications/TV networks have run more stories on the spying than on Dean's scream.

Plame was outed 2.5 years ago, and the administration that did it was re-elected last year, and hasn't met any resistance on their new deficit plan, new plan for war, court-stacking, and spying. What would you consider getting away with it?

[radio4progressives]

181. TOJ - I'm in agreement with you, did you think i wasn't ?

i haven't seen this OP for days, and so it's a little hard tracing exchanges at a glance - i may have responded to the wrong thread... dunno now..

[Hippo_Tron]

186. If the NYT worked for Bush they wouldn't have broken the story at all

It's not that I'm saying that the NYT is the incredibly liberal newspaper that the right wing makes it out to be, but I don't think it's fair to say that they are exactly Bush propaganda either. I prefer to think that the NYT has their own sleezy agenda.

[rhett o rick]

115. A little paranoia is better than apathy. Instead of attacking, why

don't you explain how we are doing against this march toward tyranny? Yes some of their horrors have been exposed, but they don't care. They are daring us to stop them. And i agree that the horrors we have uncovered are most likely the tip of the ice berg. We should be a little paranoid and try to stop their next move instead of only reacting. Like, will they try to extend GWB's reign? What is up Karl's sleeve?

[Patchuli]

163. Hopefully what will be on Karl's wrist are handcuffs

before too long. Remember if the puppetmasters get removed from the picture, things are definitely going to change.

I saw that the news waited until yesterday morning to reveal that Libby has implicated Cheney. That's going to change things considerably. I think that this administration and its staff are all in big trouble. They are so corrupt and Americans are waking up FINALLY and not a moment to soon.

Take Karl out of power, things will change for sure. Whether it's good or bad, who knows...

[radio4progressives]

183. KKKROVE is very busy fellow strong arming members in his party

R'wingers on the judiciary committee may have ended up on a domestic spying list - but seriously, it appears that mr KKKROVER has escaped justice and is free to thieve, thug and lie all he wants. in fact it appears right now that the entire criminal enterprise occupying every branch of government, has carte blanch to drain our treasury, spy on americans, rig elections to stay in power and engage in war fare all over the world.

so, it's over baby. we lost our constitution, we lost our democracy. we are now ruled by despots, thugs and tyrannical dicatorship.

and i don't see anyone trying to a thing about it.

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

92. This situation os much, much worse than Nixon

With Nixon, we had Democratic majorities in the house and senate to contain him and journalists on TV. Radio had not turned into the hate-mongering RW noise machine it is today.

W is a free-range, delusional, wanna-be dictator at this point in time.

As for the McCarthy era, Ike wasn't interested in a dictatorship.

[electropop]

103. I was terrified during NIxon's reign, but this is worse.

Bushitler's crimes are far more serious and wide-ranging. However, I definitely do NOT think it is over. America IS waking up, despite the best efforts of the Corporo-Fascist regime.

[IA_Seth]

202. Hear, hear!

It's funny how we call the right fear mongers and then use fear as a tactic on our end. The only difference is seems to be that when we use this type of fear we tend to have that "its over" mentality.

Screw that. It's far from over and if you are giving up now you have the less backbone than those we sit and complain about the most. It's still our country. Sure, we are in dark times but why give up when times are rough?

Kennedy was right. The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. If we give up now we don't deserve the rights and freedoms we worry over.

Stay in the fight, its only just begun.

[leftchick]

5. I can't argue with you

I posted pretty much the same yesterday. America is toast.

[HuskerDU]

6. Get out there and work for your candidates. If D's are way

ahead in local polls, we will win. They cannot turn big leads into losses and get away with it. They cannot 'win' all of the close races. Big red flags will raise (and we will take to the streets) if either of those scenerios occur.

Get our fine candidates the lead they deserve and we will win in the fall!

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Yes, yes they can, why?

Sure we can prove it was stolen MONTHS, even YEARS after the fact... once the election is over most Muricans are well trained to believe the Registrar. So unless you are willing to fight EVERY closed election and NOT concede (in other words go down the route of Washington State... with all the costs involved) yes, yes they can.

[AndreaCG]

33. Great name!

[leanin_green]

72. And when we take to the streets. . .

we'll be that much easier to round up for those nice new "detention centers" that Haliburton just got the contract for. I am reminded of a line from Spartacus, "Already a list of the disloyal has been compiled, the prisons begin to fill." (Crassus).

[HuskerDU]

86. I'm sorry, but I live in bumfuckville Red State and there would

be no rounding up of anybody. Even Bushloving hicks choose neighbor over political party. And in urban Blue areas, the strength in numbers would rule out rounding us up.

And to the OP, people are getting wise to these criminals. A lot of good folks had no idea what happened in '04 until it was too late. If something fishy happens this fall (and it would have to happen all over the country in house races) I for one would be ready to take to the streets.

More people are awake these days. Thousands will be ready to take action if necessary this fall. IMO, that wasn't the case in '04, even if it should've been after '00.

We are real pussies, if we have a pulse and throw in the towel. Give me liberty or give me death!

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. Yep I am sure people said the same thing abut

that reecucation camp called Bergen Belsen

Slowly cooking frogs come to mind... and if you think yuor neighbors will not choose to ignre people dissapearing if that means surviving... I hate to dsiapoint you, they will

[rhett o rick]

119. Bravo. But what if our "fine" candidates are repub's in demo's clothing

like the spineless 19. When they run again, they will get full corp elitist support (money). How do you suggest we get rid of them? It's the corp elitist running this Country not republicans. Some corp elitists are democrats. Does Hillary represent the common Americans or the elite?

[radio4progressives]

184. ....l....

:rofl:

[NoFederales]

10. You are right about the voting and I do not understand why so many

believe it is a non-issue. If the vote can be stolen, then our system of government can be stolen.

The mean-spirited, bigoted, and emotionally connected multitudes that we used to know as citizens sanction what is happening because they must believe that they are "gonna get some of theirs, too, by gawd." Theft and lying, minor felony activities are like candy to a sweet crazed kid. When a near majority populace is so narcotized on entertainment and self-indulges on minor criminal opportunities because they feel cheated on life, or whatever, when they feel they are owed something because they can't sit at the "big table"--religions of victimology fuel the fire as do hatreds of ethnicity and subcultural groups. Pretty broadbrush strokes, but posters at this site may not realize how far removed they are from the so-called common person. There are many laughs at the low-brow types expense and it is well noticed--the Republicans know how to tap this base and manipulate it. That base does not hold the leaders of the corrupt pols accountable because they hope to acquire some of the action as well.

If decent government fails us, then murdering and theiving will be springing up all around. No freedom anymore, except maybe to kill for protection--what a fucked-up country to look forward to?

NoFederales

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Exactly that is the point

and in many ways the last moment to resist in an organized manner was Monday... now the thieves know that with very little effort they can stop any real protest...

And yes it does increasingly look like there is collusion at very high levels of power. There is no other explanation any longer.

By the way, any student of 1930s Germany will be able to point the parallels between that era and today... especially in small towns and some precincts where telling people you are a Democrat means taking your life in your own hands.

And yes, most folks here are the activists who rarely if at all watch TV, and when they do are highly selective of what they watch, They can turn on Fox even and see the lies and the programing. The people are incapable... they are truly asleep at the wheel and well programmed.

[cali]

19. History's not that neat and tidy.

There are as many dissimilarities as parallels. Look, we all see the world through the prism of out experiences. Recognizing our own biases is important if we hope to see "reality".

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Ok I guess you have the rose colored glasses

I have the ones that involve things such as Central America and our current Director of National Intelligence, and Chief of Battalion 729... yep John Negroponte. I realize what these bastards are capable of doing... and it should chill you to the bone that they could not answer in the negative the question from Feinstein, has a murder occurred in the United States. The answer should have been NO, instead it was I don't know.

So Monday was a seminal moment, then you sat down and listen to John talk about what his new department is doing, add to that the NSA spying, and know a little about the NKVD and the Gestapo, we are so much there it is scary... but here are your rose colored glasses.

[omega minimo]

29. See #23

[Vickers]

14. "Nader was a prophet. "

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? HELL NO!

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. I know some woudl laugh

please tell me why did the Democratic Party Members of the United States Senate DID NOT stage a succesful fillubuster? And why is it that the leaders of this party still refuse to deal with the voting issue? (Yes Conyers has, why has teh DNC refused to take on the voting issue front and center)

[GoodE2Shoes]

16. I think...

...that you are absolutely, 100% correct! Very good figuring--it's EXACTLY what is going to happen!

I agree!

[Lone_Wolf]

21. I agree with pretty much everything you said...

except for the President for life. The same people (Cheney, Rummy, and the rest of the Neocons) will undoubtably be in charge, but they'll give us the option every few years of being able to "select" our leader. An illusion of democracy will make it less likely that the masses will uprise and revolt.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. True that is possible

the only reason why I think tehy won't is our dear leader's expresion of him wanting to be a Dictator in 2000... that chilling line makes me think he will take that step if the conditions are right... another terra attack will do it

[radio4progressives]

26. dems don't want to expose Election Fraud, and no one here is asking the

obvious, why the hell not?

why, are the dems silent on this issue?

after five years, (2000) and then three years (2002) and then finally after 2004 - still silence.

how long will it take for the rank & file to draw the obvious conclusions and voice their outrage with the collusion that's apparently going on?

[Lone_Wolf]

28. The old "Good cop, bad cop" routine?

You bring up a good question. Their are some factions in the Democratic Party that talk about it, but the leadership sure doesn't.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Collusion at the highest levels of government

that was my obvious conclusion. Especially since they HAD the votes on Mondays, they had the numbers... their choice spoke volumes to those willing to listen

Oh and the official excuse, we don't want to look like sore loosers... rings just as true as the we don't have power that is why we don't function as an oposition party... given how effective the pubbies were as an oposition party you have to wonder, WHY?

We know all the excuses, some of them valid, some of them less valid. Some of them are preocedural, yes I do understand that, but at this point they are excuses... and they have to make you wonder what the hell is going on?

[rucky]

88. I think that the Dems think they're protecting us

from horrific violence that the facists in power have threatened the American people with (martial law, "terror attack", anthrax, bird flu epidemic, etc etc). They're doing this by complying, and IMHO, they're doing us a great disservice and simply prolonging the inevitable. Yes, if they went public with the truth, there would be chaos and blood in the streets, as opposed to the slow painful deaths our most vulnerable citizens are currently suffering under facism. It's a Faustian deal, and - if confronted with the truth - I disagree with the assumption that both you and the establishment Dems share: That is the fear that the American public won't stand and fight.

Sen. Rockefeller, among others, need to BREAK SECRECY and take the smoking gun public. We CAN handle the truth, but we need it to smack us in the ass so hard that it launches us off of our sofas.

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. I know we can handle the truth

the folks in charge don't

The folks in charge think that nothing will happen, hence why I am say8ng there is collusion, History will be the judge as to how deep this collusion is and whether it is willful or coerced, but that will be for a future generation to write about. We have things to consider, such as how you resist and how you survive.

[omega minimo]

35. We need MORE "big red flags"?

See # "6.  They cannot 'win' all of the close races. Big red flags will raise (and we will take to the streets) if either of those scenerios occur."

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. We have take to the streets with every outrage

yeah right, it is the way you cook a frog, slowly

[leanin_green]

75. See #72 above. n/t

[leveymg]

27. I won't hit you with the darkest before dawn cliche, but consider this:

Just in the last 24 hours it's become clear from Fitz's note to Libby's lawyer yesterday that the prosecution is developing several lines of corroboration that Cheney was the original leaker of Plame's identity (to Woodward), that he knew she was NOC, and that he did it intentionally. That spells endgame for the Veep. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=315885&mesg_id=315885

Furthermore, it's finally been verified that Cheney was indeed Libby's initial source -- http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/2/3/22555/69913 -- that in fact gives an awful lot of leverage to Fitz to turn Libby, as Scooter falsely testified he heard about Plame from Russert. The Veep and his Chief of Staff discussing Plame isn't the issue, really. It's their conversation onboard AF2 about how they're going to leak Plame's identity to the press -- that's called Conspiracy, and direct violation of the IIPA if done knowing that Plame was NOC. If Cheney misled investigators, even if it wasn't under oath, he's going to get nailed with Obstruction of Justice, as well. Don't forget that Dick has had several conversations with Fitz, most recently just before the story broke that Woodward was the first reporter who was told about Plame. In all likelihood, Cheney was Woodward's original source, and Fitz has the goods on this. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/11/16/124510/80

It's become clearer in recent days that Fitz knows that both Cheney and Bush knew about Plame before the underlings started spreading the word about her. Someone authorized the underlings - was it Dick or was it Dick and Dubya? Dick knew (or should have known) that Plame was undercover. Dubya, well he's not too good with details, so he'll probably get mere in-class detention. This is the only real remaining questions in the prosecution at this point.

And, then, there's the missing White House e-mail. . . Seems like Plamegate has reached critical mass, to me.

Don't worry about Diebold and the Iran distractions. The people who really have the last say on things aren't going to let BushCo get off the hook.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. I sure hope you are right

it is just a very bad feeling... that hit me over night, and you truly do not want to know the nightmare that triggered this...

[leveymg]

34. Tell me your nightmare. I'll tell you mine.

I've had dreams -- not recently -- about the green-white light that brings utter silence.

There's no question that desperate men do crazy things. I'd be crazy not be worried about that, but the more I come to understand about the nature of the problems of the world, the more I realize that these matters have all been thoroughly considered and measures to prevent the start of nuclear war were decided on a long time ago. I don't think BushCo has the power anymore to break the rules that have been set up.

We'll have to deal with mere politics ourselves, however, because the military and intelligence community are not going to help us out there. I'm afraid that even without election fraud, some of the leaders of our Party still will find a way to insure defeat in the jaws of victory. It's an Enemy Within problem that goes back to Pam Harriman and Scoop Jackson.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. There you go

as to mine, it invoved a nice prison camp, probably the shoe, that was a reeducation facilty

[leveymg]

43. That makes *, "The Reeducation President"

KBR can't build enough prisons to hold all of us. There is enough spare detention space, however, for this group:

Of course, there will be some accomodation problems for the impaired to work out, first.

[NoFederales]

65. Hey, don't tell me Alf is mixed up with *?

NoFederales

[adigal]

174. My son said to me today, when I said this exact thing..

that they don't have to "hold" us - ashes don't take up much space.

My poor kid - cursed with a real knowledge of history.

[mtnsnake]

45. Funny how Diebold is the excuse dejour for people who say "It's over"

Not only is it such a popular excuse as to why we lost and why we won't win again, but it's the most annoying practice when it's used in a manner to suffocate anyone's threads who try to offer up suggestions on what we can do to regain power. So often, when someone comes up with a good suggestion, the Diebold people come out of the woodwork and attempt to hijack the thread with "we can't win" or "he didn't lose" or blah blah blah because of Diebold. It really makes me wonder. Yeah, let's make the 2008 campaign just like the one we had in 2004, because we did nothing wrong. It was all Diebold's fault. Yeah right.

[omega minimo]

49. Funny how denial is not just a river in Egypt

Didn't you get the Talking Points Memo? Actually "the Excuse Dejour" on THIS thread is "Monday" i.e. the scoundrels didn't stop Alito-- and in that regard "It's over."

Rather than snark, could you point us to thread discussing WHAT IS ACTUALLY BEING DONE RIGHT NOW AND BY WHOM to correct the little problem the U.S. has with election fraud? Everyone's got "a good suggestion" but even the few Congress members willing to discuss it can't identify WHAT IS BEING DONE. Downplaying the importance of Diebold is a big mistake.

Funny how flippant some people are in the circular firing squad.






:blush: (edit to "quote" "Excuse Dejour")

[mtnsnake]

51. My beef isn't with the Diebold people per say. My beef is with

the particular ones who attempt to hijack threads, divert the original message, and use Diebold as an excuse to do so. It's annoying when it happens and it's counterproductive to getting anything done. I do apologize for bringing it up in this thread, though, because Diebold was not used in this instance to hijack anything.

[omega minimo]

53. Very cool of you mtnsnake

:thumbsup:

Can't say I've seen the play you're referring to. Is it possible that (on other threads) people bring up the fact that unless BBV and unverifiable elections controlled by corporate cronies of *Co. are addressed, other arguments/concerns may not count for much?

[mtnsnake]

57. Thanks, omega. And to answer your question, yes, it is like that sometimes

although it doesn't happen nearly as often as it used to.

Diebold and BBV are such important issues in and of themselves, and I agree wholeheartedly that we have to get to the bottom of any possible voter fraud. However, all too often those issues were used to drown out any positive suggestions on things we could do to improve our chances of winning in future elections. For example, someone might post a thread suggesting that one of the reasons we lost the election is that our 2004 campaign managers and advisors should never have advised Kerry to take the high road concerning the swift boat liars.....and then someone would come on and start screaming that we didn't lose any election and there's no reason to even bother talking about it, because it was just Diebold as to why we lost and nothing else. It was very counterproductive when it happened in threads that were trying to be constructive.

[omega minimo]

58. And it's a mess to sort out

when ALL the "conflicting" viewpoints may be Right!

Here's a thought: get rid of the Handlers. The candidate Handlers who don't let candidates speak and the election Handlers who enable the fraud.

[rucky]

90. what's counterproductive is trying to do anything democratic

without first resolving the election fraud issue.

[Hippo_Tron]

179. We won the New Jersey and Virginia Governors' races...

Not to mention the Montana, Washington State, and West Virginia Governors' races in '04. It's not counter productive to be working for democrats in Virginia just because Ohio and Florida have Diebold in some counties.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. We WON in 2000, and again we WON in 2004

but elections in the US are now as clean as they were in Mexico up to the 1980s... yuo get some "victories" for the oposition to keep the ilusion of democracy, that is all

And until this is recognized, the first step in dealing with the problem... forget it

[rucky]

89. Fixing elections is nothing new.

neither are campaign mistakes. doesn't mean they're mutually exclusive.

[ellenfl]

47. WRONG ATTITUDE!! please post a warning if you plan

to post defeatism. i, for one, do not want to read any pessimistic assessments of our future. that is self-defeating and will drain hope. change will only come from a positive attitude . . . not from naysayers.

enough, already! it only brings us down. :nuke:

ellen fl

[omega minimo]

54. Did you fall for W's "Defeatism" -ism?

:hide:

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[omega minimo]

55. What is the sound of one hand typing?

..........so..........the language barrier isn't foriegn

it's Freepish?

[Dr Fate]

52. Have you built your Mad Max car yet?

You already seem to live in this world you have painted for yourself.

I dont hear any fat ladies singing just yet- speak for your self- crawl into your bomb-shelter or keep fighting- but I dont need to hear this negative crap.

[ncteechur]

59. Nader was no prophet--he was a prick.

We all knew what he was referring to was correct. He was too arrogant to take his silly ass out of the race when he knew it would make it moe difficult for Gore.

[Capn Sunshine]

60. I'm right there with you

It's over. The Alito vote was the signal. there isn't anything we can do at this point; except post outraged comments as we watch the Dems lose another election because that's whatthey do.

Meanwhile, developers are tuning up for a new round of prison construction, for "terrorists" and Debtors.

Have a nice day.

[greentrees]

61. Me too

Oh woe is me ... what will become of us ... voters are idiots disguised as free people ... lemmings over the cliff ... we need to organize ... get out the message ... get wiser Dem leadership ... follow Cindy, she's one of the few speaking up.

Rally ... protest ... work ... we can do it.

[DerekG]

62. You know things are f---ed when a Star Wars flick seems prophetic

n/t

[Catchawave]

64. 75 Million Registered Voters

Did not vote in 2004. Diebold, Schmibold, that's what lost the election. And why I think, WE, the real patriots, need to get behind the Minimum Wage Referendums to get our lazy assed non-voting, apatheic "Poor Me" Americans to the polls.

We've got to dangle a BIG carrot, like the RWer's do with the holy-rolling marriage ammendments.

http://www.oneamericacommittee.com/minimumwage/

But here's a :hug: for you anyhow :hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

117. We WON in OH as it is NOW being exposed

We WON in florida in 2000

Oh never mind, if you don't think the problem even exists....

[Hippo_Tron]

182. But what if 20 million more people had voted?

Let's assume that we did win in 2004 and that Kerry had been inaugurated. In the short term he would have lessened some of the damage and yes we would have a more moderate supreme court. But just because the votes weren't being tampered with by Diebold, doesn't change the fact that the neocons would still be around and would still be very powerful. We would have a slightly left of center president with an insane right wing congress that would probably be gaining more seats this year.

Here's my point... getting rid of Diebold isn't going to get rid of the neocons. Diebold or no Diebold there are still enough ignorant people in this country to vote for them. If shurb had the political abilities of Ronald Reagan or Bill Clinton then they wouldn't have had to steal the election, he would have destroyed Kerry regardless.

Diebold doesn't exist in every precinct in America and the point that the poster was trying to make above was that if we have a political revolution with 20 million new voters carrying 40 or more states, then Diebold won't be an issue. They can install all of the diebold machines that they want in the "swing states" of Ohio and Florida. Nebraska has 5 electoral votes and they don't have Diebold, why can't we win those. Alabama has 9 electoral votes and they don't have diebold, why can't we win those? Kansas has 6 electoral votes and doesn't have Diebold, why can't we win those? Texas has 34 electoral votes and doesn't have Diebold, why can't we win those? We can if we have a political revolution. We can overcome the neocons and we can overcome Diebold at the same time.

On the other hand, if we allow it to come down to Ohio and Florida every time then yes they will steal it every time.

[laugle]

66. As much as it kills me to say it, I think you may be

right!!

I believe that as far as election fraud goes--we ain't seen nothing yet!!

There is no way Bush can afford to lose to Dems in either house--it would be MAJOR SUPEONA LAND for him and he knows that.

But I do see a light, maybe just maybe the republicans will decide to hang him out to dry as they see their jobs on the line.

I will still try to remain optimistic, at least through the 2006 election.

It's much better than being a defeatist which could become a self-fullfilling prophecy!!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. Admiting to the depth of reality

do0es not mean being defeteatist, the first step in solving ANYTHING is in admiting the problem. Our tactcs need to change... for what we are doing ain't working..

[laugle]

148. I think most people would agree on identifying

problems in order to solve them. I thought that's one of the things we are trying to do.

However, you OP is much more defeatist than it is optimistic, maybe it's just the way you write.

As I said, I'm afraid you could be right--I hope not. After all there is a difference between being realistic and pesimistic.

Try to find some light at the end of the dark tunnel or you could get very depressed--and that's not good for you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

149. Read the Declaration of Independence

paragraph one to be specific, there is your recipee for what may be needed. First things first, realizing where we are... and it is very dark...

[laugle]

152. You must be tired from this thread, I am......

I'll just end it with a quote from old Dr. Phil.......how's it working for you?

Peace to you......cheer up!!

[LittleClarkie]

67. Oh well, fuck it then

I've been needing more time to do other things anyway. Glad to know there's no hope. That should free things up. So, should I let my Dem membership lapse? Tell the local party to go to hell? Why even bother campaigning for Kennedy if Sensenbrenner is a shoe in.

Btw, we fended off Diebold here. But who gives a shit, right? It's still hopeless. Doomed I tell you! DOOMED!

I can't believe I've been foolish enough to waste my time. Oh well.

See you guys in hell.

[AtomicKitten]

69. oh, shit, and I just went grocery shopping. (nt)

[karynnj]

68. I f Nader was a Prophet, he would have pulled out in 2000

Told his vision and told everyone to look closely at Bush (the first 40 years of a person's life tell a lot, especially if they brand others of lower status) and realize that like his earth tones or not, you have to vote for Gore.

If he would have done this, he would have been labeled a lunatic, Gore would likely have won NH, where only a small portion of Nader votes would cover the difference. We would never know what we averted, so Nader would never get the credit he deserved. (He would be looked at like Perot - who also was labeled a lunatic after he went against a Bush.)

[nadinbrzezinski]

127. Hate to tell you thins

the coup was gonna happen with or wtthout nader in the ballot...

[TankLV]

70. I fear you may be right. I hope you are wrong.

But the polyannas here refuse to see the evidence piling up all around us , either way.

[CJCRANE]

74. 54% disapproval and counting...

Just wait until the drawdown of troops from Iraq when 1000's of returning combat vets find out they've been lied to and used. It's not gonna be pretty.

[leanin_green]

76. In the words of Mel Brooks. . .

"It's good to be the King! Pull!" As a peasant is flung like a clay pigeon.

Go ahead a disapprove. Do you think these guys give a shit? They have a plan if things get bad enough. And the OP has only touched upon some of it.

[Fire Walk With Me]

79. Makes you wonder.

If they crashed the US economy, they, holding the energy resources, could rebuild it however they wanted, installing the ultrachristians as social enforcers (so that this can never happen again) and any gun-toting yahoo as legal enforcement.. Remember, the NRA has agreed to "get radical". The kkkristian base wants theirs to be the only ideology, no questions asked (any closed system of belief, which specifically denies the tools required to analyze it, is automatically disqualified). If they can get "intelligent design" (sic) in place in any single small court, it can be sent directly to its friends in SCOTUS.

Bush has made an art of profiting from the smash-and-grab. They come up roses while those around them suffer. Right now they're splitting up $1.5 billion a week and the taxpayer gets the bill. They've sucked up dollars from overseas as well.

Exxon, and gas prices rise again.

These people have a long-term agenda, and most of the pieces are in place, such as the UN, the World Bank, alignment of oil resources, SCOTUS members, etc.

Remember, you are either with them or against them. They've already surveilled and marked the protestors and critics, and shown no issue with doing torture overseas, so why not here?

It can't happen here? Why not? What could anyone actually do if they crashed the economy on purpose, and/or terra-ists attacked? It may not happen tomorrow, it may not happen this year, but the social and economic trends are obviously real.

We are benefitting from coming together in a big way, but it will cross paths with their designs.

[BlueEyedSon]

94. "rebuild it however they wanted"... yeah, maybe NOLA is a test run

[EFerrari]

80. If you're posting, it's not over.

Have your come-apart. I have one about once a week.

Collusion? Of course.

This is about to become very interesting. I know you don't want to miss that.

:hug:

[Cocoa]

81. again?

"all hope was lost" so many times it's like Chemical Ali getting killed, or some turning point in Iraq, or some scmoe saying they "can never vote for candidate x" again after some vote or other. It's just so much hoo hah.

[OzarkDem]

84. Enough whining

:nopity:

[BeHereNow]

85. As the old saying goes...

Don't waste your breath on fools.
You are reading the writing on the wall with
exceptional clarity and you absolutely
correct on what it means as far as our future.
I understand and agree with you completely.
BHN

[Skip Intro]

87. A DUer beset by hopelessness. Happens to us all, time to time.

And then back stronger than ever.

Like shedding a skin.

[stickdog]

91. That's exactly what THEY want you to think.

THEY are cowardly bullies, and THEY only succeed when WE let them control our responses to their stagecraft:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2439522

[chimpymustgo]

106. Stickdog, your link supports the OP, IMO. And I tend to agree.

Have moments of hope, but last Monday seemed to reveal the Dem collusion in the whole charade.

But that's okay, we'll get 'em at the spy hearings.
And it that doesn't work, Fitzgerald will ride to the rescue.
And it that doesn't work, 2006 is just around the corner.
And then 2008...

I think it makes a lot of sense to think about Plan B.

[nadinbrzezinski]

121. Exactly, it is time to thinki of plan b for whatever we are doing

ain't working

As I said alraedy, Denial ain't only a river in egypt, and once we make a diagnosis we can come up with a plan.

[mogster]

93. Strange, I thought it was the opposite way around

The Dems are now so strong that the elections in 2006 can't be run as the 2000 and 2004 elections, there are too many election investigators ready to forward a message of 'foul play' even faster to the grassroot.

The mood of the Am. people are against Bush handling of his 'presidency' and the war in Iraq will be nothing compared to the war in Iran.

The media don't play the Dems way, but still; the Dems and independents have their own media network now. The voices of opposition can't be silenced by ignorance.

The only thing that can bring Bushco more victory is a new terror attack OR a new war, which they can use as a 'proof' they're right.

Isn't that strange? The more the crisis excalate, the more power they gain. It should be the other way around; they don't do their job properly, and subsequently should be subject to stronger criticizm.

It has been 5 years soon, and still bin Laden is on the loose.
It has been 3 years now and still there is status quo in Iraq.
It has been 6 years now and the Am. economy is in shambles.
It has been 6 months and still NOLA looks like a war zone

It has been too many years where they have delivered very little of what they promised.

[Lance]

96. Bleak outlook

nadinbrzezinski,
You describe a very bleak future but I can't say I disagree. My only question is, why bother to vote? Diebold will just delete it anyway.

[nadinbrzezinski]

122. It is my duty as a citizen

but like citizens in many banana republics I know it won't count. I grew up in one, so I can identify the signs and symptoms of one... and yes we live in a banana republic

[Andromeda]

190. Well, it is my duty as a citizen...

to tell you that I'm not a defeatist and I don't buy your gloom and doom prophecy. I've lived through a lot of negative shit and it's not in my nature to give up that easily.

Nothing is a foregone conclusion and none of us knows what the future will hold. Bad things have happened and will probably happen in the future but that doesn't mean we can't turn it around.

There have been some very bad times in the history of the U.S. and we've managed to survive all of it. Don't be so negative because dwelling on bad stuff is not constructive and can be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Marie26]

97. No, it isn't. nt

[liberalpress]

98. It doesn't matter if the original post is right or wrong..

This is America. We were given these freedoms by (if you are to believe the Constitution) God. I'll surely be God damned if I let a bunch of greedy, power hungry men take them away from me.
I am not afraid to fight
I am not afraid to die
I am not afraid.

[JNelson6563]

99. Gee maybe we should just quit now

and go hang out at a DB hwere Dems are considered sub-human and anyone actual working for change is a sucker. Would you happen to have a link to such a shithole, er, I mean DB? :eyes:

Julie

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. If you think II am asking you to quit you are wrong

there are times that people have to rethink what they are doing for what they are doing ain't working

Will give you a line that you may get or not... we must hang together, for apart we will surely hang....

I will give you another one, Give me Liberty or give me death...

Yes, we are at that paint in our history once again... alas I don't think the American people have it in them anymore. I would get rich if I got a dollar for every occasion I heard the people will surely take to the streets for this.

Then again, take heart, only 1\3 of the population fought in the American War of Independence.

[JNelson6563]

130. Then why all the discouragement?

How about some positive ideas? Maybe you could share your efforts with DU so you could inspire or encourage?

Surely one as convinced as you are on the dire need for change is out there trying to make it happen.

Julie

[nadinbrzezinski]

131. The first thing you have to do is realize

whatever you are doing ain't working, and yes that method is over... now you can gather your conclusions from what I wrote of what we will need to do... for guidance I will direct you to the Declaration of Independence, first paragraph. The time has some and I doubt most people are ready... or will even go there.

[JNelson6563]

136. You missed your turn and are in wrong place I suspect

I do wish you "Dems suck! Abandon all hope!" folks would stay at PI.

Julie

[nadinbrzezinski]

138. You are missing what I am saying

and that is fine... and yes I will say it, SOME DEMS are shit, and are most likely in collusion with the powers that be...

Clear enough for you?

Good.

Now you want a list of names of which Dems ARE shit? Start by the DLC list and go from there ok...for god sakes some have even signet the PNAC statement of principles!

[Ciggies and coffee]

100. I have a gut feeling 2008 will go for the DLC via Diebold n/t

[Slit Skirt]

102. I think the problem is the democratic/republican paradigm....

the powers to be want us to see the U.S. as 2 worlds: democrat and republican
i think many "democrats" in DC are "republican" plants
people put into office seemingly democratic but will make sure the republican agenda is not disturbed.
republicans know what the agenda is, maybe they agree or disagree, but they feel it is inevitable

They have proven they will not protect us prior to a catastrophe: 9/11
they have proven they will not protect us after a catastrophe: Katrina
they have shown us no matter what the people want, they won't fix the elections and will put the "proper" Supreme court justices into office
they are building internment camps
fema has a document called the end game
they break any law and justify it through fear
they demonize liberals, marginalize us, call us crazy and evil and a "threat to US security"....Sean Hannity and RL call us evil....we are prime targets for those camps and they spying is done to identify us.

and what they are doing is polarizing left against right, keeping us arguing amongst ourselves,against each other, keeping us busy while they go about the business of dismantling the constitution, and destroying our civil rights.
they can't get to the end game without that

The end game is globalism, King George and all his minnions following orders...probably with no money, no food and no ability to fix it.

most importantly...they know that the "american paradigm and what we stand for" will be the hardest to overcome....it will also be their vehicle..because most people will not believe that our country has evil people running it, with an evil agenda. When Americans come around to reality...all the checks and balances, civil rights, and constitution will be gone

[leftstreet]

157. ..

:thumbsup:

[LynneSin]

105. It's never over - I will not be a defeatist

Diebold does not control every election. And they can only steel so many votes until people are going to question what is going on.

We need 15 seats and that's very feasible to win the house.

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. If you refuse to beleive the dept of election fixing I cannot

help you there. But that is the first thing that needs to be fixed, followed right after with media access.

Good luck...

By the way I did not ask you to stop fighting, just to rethink what you are doing, for what you are doing ain't working.

[LynneSin]

137. Oh my god, get your head out of the fricking sand

I never said that!!!

Any other words you wanna put into my mouth?

All I'm saying is this defeatist attitude of "Why bother the elections are fixed" isn't cutting the cake. I'm not ready to toss in the towel; it's my country too!

[nadinbrzezinski]

139. Did I say I won't vote?

no, I am voting, just realizing it ain't counting.

Clear enough for you?

The first step in fixing the problem is fixing the election system where I, the citizen, will trust that the vote will count.

If you want to read that as throwing in the towel, go for it. Do you want a plain or flower design?



:-)


I just realize that the election is a sham, like under any other fascist state. Clear neough? Good

[Douglas Carpenter]

107. there have been many dark days in |America history

Imagine life under the Alien and Sedition Act. Imagine the McCarthy Era.

In 1964 when the anti-Viet Nam War protest was just starting, the tiny handful of protesters had to be protected from university students trying to attack them. And there has indeed been voter fraud before as well.

_________________

If the Democrats take the House this November

10 members of the Progressive Caucus would become chairmen of committees

John Conyers becomes Chairman of the Judiciary Committee

"Even a vote for a conservative Dem is vote for Conyers and the 10"

https://www.democrats.org/page/contribute

[nadinbrzezinski]

133. Imagine life under the Alien and Sedition act

can you spell patriot act? Thought so... in some ways it is even more insidious than the Alien and Sedition Act

As to demonstrations we have had MASSIVE demonstrations, the old term come to mind, if a tree falls in the middle of the forest and nobody hears it, did it fall?

As to voter fraud... nothing in our history dealt wtih massive nationwide fraud to steal a presidency. There was local fraud, some of it quite impresive, but nothing like this.

Oh don't worry, when November comes IF I am proven wrong I will gladly eat that crow, and I hope I am proven wrong

[rhett o rick]

109. It is one thing to trash this poster, but it is entirely another to provid

an alternate argument. I really would like to know how bad things need to get before some of you start to get scared.

There was a post earlier this week that quoted a book about how gradual the movement to tyranny was in Nazi Germany. Most citizens did even notice the change. They had important daily lives to keep them busy, like our supper bowl and the bs the corp media spews. The momentum toward tyranny in this Country is huge. Please tell me how to stop it? Winning a slight majority in the HOR won't be enough. Many HOR members are part of the corp elitist problem. Yes we have had some indictments and we may even get one or two put in jail w/o pardons. These are tokens they are willing to give up.

There most likely will be a push to extend GWB's reign. What can we do to stop it if the HOR, the Senate and the SCOTUS go along?

Don't get me wrong, i will still fight every step, but to pretend there isn't a huge problem is insane.

Long Live the Constitution

[Slit Skirt]

112. Bravo!!!!!!!

I will be right next to you fighting...but better to know what we are fighting......denial is never a good thing

[rhett o rick]

120. We need a strategy. nm

[justabob]

167. Right.... plus another good quote

I know the quote you refer to from They Thought They Were Free that has been posted several times... I have another one that makes it more tangible (IMO):

This reporter compared the process of Nazism's attempted moral transformation of German society to rebuilding a railway bridge. Engineers could not simply demolish an existing structure because of the impact on rail traffic. Instead, they slowly renewed each bolt, girder and rail, work which hardly caused passengers to glance up from their newspapers. However, one day, they would realize that the old bridge had gone and a gleaming new structure stood in its stead. (Michael Burleigh/The Third Reich: A New History)

It has been very clear to me for a long time that this transformation is happening, and I am repeatedly shocked that so many otherwise knowledgeable people refuse to see it, or flat out deny that this is what is happening.... or that this COULD be happening.

[rhett o rick]

116. We shouldn't panic, but we sure as hell should get a strategy. nm

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. First step

recognize there is a problem... once that is internalized then we can more to what do we do now.

So the first huge step is to get over the denial

Oh and as a student of history I can see the very slow move to wards tyranny, and yes that is why I use German society as an example but the American Nazi Party (they do have some racist elements) is truly closer to Mussolini's vision of a corporatist party... carried to the global village.

[Slit Skirt]

134. when I first recognized what was going on.....

i was depressed for months and anybody I talked to about it thought I was crazy...now it is all coming to fruition...

there are more threads on this now than say, a year 1/2 ago....but that is still not enough. It is a big pill to swallow and it takes time for people to see writing on the wall.

My thoughts are that we email all representatives and call them on everything...let the enemy know that there are huge amounts of people that are onto them....i think that could make their plans more transparent and more difficult to achieve.

[nadinbrzezinski]

135. That is why them plans are accelerating

hell my mom who does not live in this country is swallowing some of the distractions (Iran) because it is a danger to Israel and she has not put 2+2 together the moment Israel no longer serves the goals of the present administration, bye bye Israel, they are that cynical.

[Slit Skirt]

140. fear, fear, and more fear...

when we overcome that...it will be the beginning

[nadinbrzezinski]

141. Bingo

by the way here is another story making the rounds, which many will ignore... it is uncomfortable

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x328202

Can presidents order the murder of people inside the US? I think Negroponte is chomping at the bit to reform his death squad battalion.

[gratuitous]

125. Then lock your doors, turn out the lights

And assume the fetal position. Me? I've got work to do, and you're not helping.

[nadinbrzezinski]

132. Like what, get people to the polls?

good luck....

As I said repeatedly already, what we are doing ain't working... and unfortunately people are in denial.

Read the Declaration of Independence, do you have what it takes? That is what it will take.

[Beetwasher]

142. Police State? We Should Be So Lucky.

We may not make it that far.

[nadinbrzezinski]

150. You realize that people have disapeared

they are listening to phone calls, hell all communications and we may even have death squads running around... at least they are asking Gonzales the questions to the effect. You tell me...

[Stand and Fight]

144. ......

[holdyourbreath]

145. I hope they prove you wrong, but they probably won't....

unless they listen to these kind of warnings. ...but why would anyone start now?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheSwitch/

[nadinbrzezinski]

151. Exactly

the denial is deep inside and outside the party... hey what 'bout them steelers!

[greiner3]

147. They warned us a century ago;

The South shall rise again. It did and look what spawn from hell we got; Hitler II. It will take decades for those in the north to sufficently dilute the voting ranks of the real red state voters to the point that a liberal candidate has a chance in a southern state. Until then, moderate Dems are the only chance we have have in a national election.

[BigYawn]

153. The reason we are losing elections is NOT Diebold, rather it is because

I have not heard for a very long time, a positive,
optimistic, realistic, and clearly understandable
agenda put forward by our candidates. I may be wrong
on this, so prove me wrong by listing what sen Kerry
or VP Gore had emphasized as a list of 10 most important
things they would accomplish if elected.

I can visualize Diebold stealing ONE election, in ONE
State, in a handful of counties. But I can noy visualize
an immaculate conspiracy theory where by votes are
manipulated by a mutitude of election officials, a
mutitde of computer programmers, a multitude of on-site
technicians for THREE election cycles without a single
person defecting. I refuse to be that paranoid. I refuse
to be delusional.

Again, unless our team comes up with something similar to
contract with America, a one page document which even a
rabid football fan can take the time to read and easily
understand, I am looking forward to more setbacks, *sigh*.

[nadinbrzezinski]

169. part of teh problem is the media and lack of access to it

part of the problem is you are buying the Republican Message, to get the message you have to read the "right" websites, and partly it is truly Diebold and the way the system has been corrupted. Also most citizens cannot and will nto accept this horrible truth... we no longer own the process.

[Lorien]

155. Maybe what we really need are skilled hackers of our own

imagine if liberal hackers got into the Diebold system and threw dozens of races to Dems-THEN there would be a serious investigation into this method of voting, and we might be able to go back to an honest system. However,we progressives don't believe in breaking the law-ever; even if it's a matter of dictatorship or democracy. Repugs have no problem with it whatsoever, though. Never have.

[BigYawn]

162. If hacking was easy, we would had it done by now eom

[Lorien]

165. I never said it was, but obviously it's possible

otherwise exit polls would not have suddenly become entirely inaccurate across the Nation where these systems were employed.

[BigYawn]

178. Did you by any chance notice how far off the EXIT POLLS were in

the most recent election in Gaza+West Bank? Even the victors,
the Hamas party was shocked to get 50% more seats than was
projected by EXIT POLLS. That tells me people do not tell
the truth to the pollsters on their way out of the booth.

Don't ask me why it is that way. May be people are scared/
ashamed to admit they voted for the more radical party,
Hamas over there, Repuglicans over here.

[radio4progressives]

187. i didn't look in to the elections there, but Carter said it was a

remarkably clean election... and he said that the other night on Larry King. I'm paraphrasing from memory, but it was to that effect.

[nadinbrzezinski]

170. You are now talking of a very revolutionary act

[specimenfred1984]

158. I Know the Answer, The Answer is Jail

People need to be jailed for life.

I saw Hillary on C-Span last night talking about all the corruption, fraud and propaganda involved in Medicare. Then, she said the answer was to come up with another Medicare plan. I say WRONG, put the corrupt, the frauds and the propagandists in jail for being corrupt, frauds and propagandists.

Put Libby, Rove and Cheney in jail for treason for outing a CIA agent. Put Bush, Rice, Powell, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Feith and others in jail for conspiracy to commit war, torture, election rigging, etc... I think my point is clear.

IMO, the only hope the U.S. has remaining is to hold people accountable for crimes and that's what us dems should be doing. As you, Nadin, pointed out, most dems aren't doing that. Without law and accountability, America is lost.

[kutblok]

161. Jail.

"Without law and accountability, America is lost." I can only echo those words. As in the case of the corporate criminals, removal of personal comforts through imprisonment is the way to get their attention.

[nadinbrzezinski]

171. Our elected officials

and that goes for BOTH parties at many levels, are refusing to do what needs to be done. Yes, indeed the Democratic party has no power for subpoena, et al... (And some are doing yeoman's work) but the party needs to adopt a message of corruption and how they are going to fix it...

Now the true reality is that this is NOT a partisan problem... it is an American problem and people must demand by any means possible that those people, (regardless of party) who have taken an oath to the Constitution, not their President or their party... do and carry out their Constitutionally mandated duties. If they are unwilling, where are the people and why are they silent? As long as people remain silent, they are given consent to the shenanigans in DC. And no I no longer expect the people to take to the streets en masse, or for national strikes.

On the bright side only 1\3 of the population was committed to Independence, one third were Loyalists to the Empire and one third basically tried to stay out of the way during the American Revolution. If you look at the numbers... they roughly match.

[MrBenchley]

166. Nadine, didn't you say you were leaving us the other day?

Imagine my surprise to find you still clogging the forums trying to whip up a violent revolution.....

[nadinbrzezinski]

168. Imagine your surprise

I am now registered as an INDEPENDENT, how is that going for you? I decline to state my party affiliation

Oh and by the way, you are the one who is ignorant of US History.

There is a revolution in this country every thirty years or so... most are peaceful... I am not betting this one will be, even if I do hope to be proven wrong. Unlike you I do know the full implications of both a civil war or ... a revolution in the way you choose to read it. By the way... do you have a problem with the Founding Fathers and their radicalism? If you do... I guess you also have a problem with the foundation of the nation, no it was not peaceful, and what they bequeathed us. By the way, you MIGHT be familiar with the story of the old lady who asked Frankly what they gave us. He said, "a Republic Ma'am, as long as you want to keep it." Do we want a republic or an Empire? And I know the answer from both the DLC and the Neo Cons... I am not blind.


Ny the way you have a problem with making references to the Declaration of Independence and do you consider that purely a dead document? Give me Liberty or give me death, were not empty words for the 1\3 who FOUGHT that war... it seems those are empty words for the current generation of Americans.

[MrBenchley]

172. No, I knew it was so much hooey.....

"you are the one who is ignorant of US History..... the old lady who asked Frankly what they gave us."
Frankly? (snicker)

"I know the answer from both the DLC and the Neo Cons... I am not blind."
There are plenty of other adjectives to describe you....

[Name removed]

177. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LittleClarkie]

185. self edit

no longer relevant without the original post.

[blindpig]

173. Not to worry.

We got TV. We got gas in the tank. We got more food than you can possibly eat. What more do ya need?

Bread and circuses, the best version yet. Big Darkness will not look that bad to those not "taken into the system". For every one taken ten will be cowed. Only deprivation or hopelessness will motivate the masses to change and the Players won't let it get quite that bad until they're ready and the facade is no longer cost efficient.

I don't really expect a full blown stalinist crackdown, we're too sophisticated for that. It's a wonder what can be done with tv. A little ugliness here and there perhaps, but those people will be radicals, beyond the pall. The American Way of Life will be maintained(see 1st paragraph).

See, it's not so bad.:sarcasm:

[lucca]

175. When will this nightmare end.

When will the truth prevail.

*Bush and his cronies, have too much power, and yet that is not enough for them; they want more,and more, and more.

They are suffocating our democracy.

The lies, arrogance and abuse of power....
Ah...then there is the "corporate media", as enablers for this disastrous administration.

[radio4progressives]

188. sad to report that it will not end with the mid term elections

it will get worse, much worse before it will start to get better... if ever.

as much wishful thinking into this as we dare to fantasize, elections, and our favorite politicians will not do what needs to be done. because you see, they can do things now, our favorite elected officials do not need to win a majority in order be able to run and chair committees to see if someone broke the law.

in other words, it isn't absolutely necessary to go through that kind of process -the FBI and the Justice Department can take action now, evidence need only be presented to them. but those steps are not being taken except in the case of scooter libby and karl rove, a few congress people and now abramoff's prosecuter has been promoted to be a federal judge, ain't that a hoot?

it's going to take a revolution, of some kind. and that won't likely be until after another stolen elections, or after a victorious election has been won, but still no justice is rendered. when these scenarios finally begin to playout, then maybe, maybe, just maybe people will finally decide, they're not going to take it anymore.

[Odin2005]

176. These are times that try men's souls.

This is one of the darkest hours of our history. Even Reaganites are getting it. Opponents are forced to shut up under threat of blackmail because of being wiretaped. Dissidents are put on the no-fly list. These Neo-Crazy bastards were dissapointed Raygun didin't start WW3 with the USSR, and they are still hungry for blood because of it. They are willing to wipe thier ass with the Constitution as long as they keep the guns of perpetual war blazing. Eisenhower's nightmare of the Millitary-Industrial complex has come to pass. My God, what has happened to my country? :cry:

[NewDemocrat92]

191. There is no way that Democrats will win either house

Most American voters, particularly Conservative whites, will vote on the same 1, 2, or maybe 3 religious & social issues. Gay Marriage, abortion, tax cuts, and the pro-war agenda..etc etc those types of things. Mostly wedge issues.

The real issues will be covered up, as usual. Republicans understand the importance of controlling huge chunks of the media. He who controls the media, will win at the ballot box. Dems have yet to understand this.

It is not that Dems don't have a message... they just can't get it out, because they don't control huge media infrastructure. Until Dems understand the importance of having their own major media outlets, I don't see them being able to stop the right wing revolution. Even with the Republican scandals, the temporary Republican backlash, etc... The nation is still trending Republican. Dems can't capitalize on the major Republican stumbles.

And it also helps when your political ally makes voting machines.

The OSCE...(The Organization for Security & Cooperation in Europe) the organization that monitored the 2004 U.S. elections, cited major flaws in the U.S. system... of course the major media didn't report that too much. It sort of blew over after about a week.

[Teaser]

192. Then go away

because you're no use to us. I'm sure there's a Defeatists.org out there for you to hang out at.

[nadinbrzezinski]

193. Why is your reaction go away

It should be... hmm problem diagnosed, what are we gonna do about it?

Instead this is the ever so popualr denial. Don't worry, it took the Founders almost a generation to realize how truly dire things were... it will take the same here it seems

[LittleClarkie]

194. Because you didn't present thread as "problem identified... now what"

you said, instead, "It's over."

Well, that's what folks are reacting to. It's not that you have identified the problem and they refuse to see. It's that they have identified you as a quitter by your headline, and would like the defeatist they see, or think they see, to go bye bye now if that's all she's got.

If you wanted to present a problem in need of a solution, you probably shouldn't have played reverse psychology games and sounded like you were giving up.

That's why you're getting the reaction you're getting, I do believe.

[nadinbrzezinski]

195. Yes it is over the way we are doing things

now that you know that... get creative... what we are doing ain't working....

But keep thinking it is...

I know it is not.

There are other ways of doing things... some of them peaceful... (and I'd rather go that route) some of them not.

Brush up on Martin Luther and Ghandhi who DID NOT control the media, in fact the media was fully against them. They did not control the police, in fact they were willing to go to jail for justcie... all I see is... we will correct things with elections... yeah right... the collusion is deep at the highest levels.

[LittleClarkie]

199. I didn't say I thought that what we were doing was working

and I'm pretty sure Ghandi and Martin Luther didn't say "It's over, folks". They said other things.

Your message, whether you meant it to be or not, was to give up. If you don't want people reacting to that wrong message, then don't be so opaque next time. People would understand, and likely agree, if you were clear.

[QC]

196. Gloom, despair, and agony on me!

Deep dark depression,
Excessive misery,
If it weren't for bad luck
I'd have no luck at all,
Gloom, despair, and agony on me!

[LittleClarkie]

197. Where o' where are you to-nite?

Why did you leave me here all alone?
I searched the world over and I thought I found true love.
You found another and -- pfffffftttt -- you was gone.

[MrBenchley]

198. I am old and gray, and I've lost my way

All my tomorrows are yesterday
I bartered my graces
For silks and fine laces
My pure heart I sold
For silver and gold
And now, I am alone.....

[LaPera]

200. I agree with you...Electronic voting machines assure the republican party

Victory!!!

The republican party, always for the elite, the wealthy and the corporations have always needed to cheat all-through the republican party's history. And they alway have cheated!

That's why they never need to talk about the poor and middle class, union workers, minorities, women, etc Never no need to talk about their shitty economy, jobs, Social Programs, education, the environment...Because They Don't Have To ---Now the republican have in every state their owned and operated secret software, (ES&S, Diebold, etc.) to steal any race in any state they choose...

And we can't do shit about it!!!!

[Spinoza]

201. As the son of concentration camp survivors,

I am really getting tired of the casual "Nazi" comparisons used all the time. Bad as this fucking regime is, they don't even come close to the regime that tattooed the numbers I saw every day on my parents wrists. The comparison belittles the Holocaust reality.

[LittleClarkie]

203. I remember John Stewart had the same reaction

and when Durbin apologized for the reference, many called him a wimp. But I'm thinking it was probably an apology that had to be made. Those of us with no connection don't have the same depth of understanding.

You have to admit, though, at the very least, we could call them fascist.

[Spinoza]

204. Almost.

I would say "potentially" fascist. DU definitely could not exist if the Bush regime were truly fascist. We would all be jailed, beaten or dead or in hiding. It may come. But it ain't here today.

[greyl]

205. Yeah, sure. Just like you were so confident about people shooting

cops a while ago because an "expert" told you so.

[Name removed]

206. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CarlSheeler4U]

207. Sheeler That's Crap We do have backbone

Here's a positive outlook, too

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2450397&mesg_id=