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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 09:32 AM
Original message
On spying, a lot of people, including Dems, are going to say
a lot of things, but it doesn't change the fact that Bush broke the law:

Conservatives Condemn Bush's Domestic Spying Scandal



Attorney General Alberto Gonzales spent the day on Capitol Hill trying to spin the Bush Administration's domestic spying program. What Gonzales can't run away from, however, is the bi-partisan condemnation of the domestic spying scandal.

Below is just a short list of conservatives who have spoken out against the invasive program...

Senator Lindsey Graham: "If he has the authority to go around the FISA court, which is a court to accommodate the law of the war of terror, the FISA Act was created a court set up by the chief justice of the United States to allow a rapid response to requests for surveillance activity in the war on terror. I don't know of any legal basis to go around that. There may be some, but I'm not aware of it. And here's the concern I have. We can't become an outcome-based democracy. Even in a time of war, you have to follow the process, because that's what a democracy is all about: a process."

Senator Chuck Hagel: "Americans can be protected against terrorism without violating the law or ignoring civil rights…No president is ever above the law. We are a nation of laws and no president, majority leader or chief justice or the Supreme Court can unilaterally or arbitrarily avoid a law or dismiss a law. ... We need wiretaps ... but there's a right way and a wrong way to do that."

Senator Larry Craig: "I'm particularly concerned about the long-term effect of the line we may be crossing. When we flipped the FISA over from just foreign governments and known spies and blended it into a gray area of the Patriot Act, we're now talking about somebody who we have reason to believe is connected to a foreign government, but they are a U.S. citizen."

Senator Olympia Snowe: "Revelations that the U.S. government has conducted domestic electronic surveillance without express legal authority indeed warrants Congressional examination. I believe the Congress -- as a coequal branch of government -- must immediately and expeditiously review the use of this practice."

Senators Snowe, Hagel: "We write to express our profound concern about recent revelations that the United States Government may have engaged in domestic electronic surveillance without appropriate legal authority. These allegations, which the President, at least in part, confirmed this weekend require immediate inquiry and action by the Senate."

Sen. Brownback said, in reference to the President's domestic spying program: "I think it's in a gray territory. And we need to have a thorough look at the legality of it." Sen. Brownback appeared on stage with President Bush while he defended the program, despite having reservations over the President's legal authority to conduct the wiretapping investigations.


Sen. Mike DeWine: "We clearly have to take a look at this," DeWine said. "This is part of our job in oversight. It's our responsibility."

Senator John Sununu: Asked if the NSA wiretapping was legal, Sununu said, "I don't know. It's really difficult to say without having all the information in front of you, and that could probably only be presented in some sort of a classified briefing. I think it does underscore, though, the importance of looking carefully at whether or not civil liberties are being protected, whether it's work being done by the National Security Administration, the NSA, or work done by law enforcement under the Patriot Act. We want to make sure that there are appropriate protections in place; that objections can be heard in front of a judge; and that people have, you know, the right to appeal their case if they think they've been prosecuted wrongly." Asked if he agreed that the Iraq war resolution granted authority for spying, Sununu said, "I don't believe that that resolution, the use of force resolution, was carte blanche authorization for any new and significant expansion of domestic spying or even intelligence activity on the foreign front. I think that the authorization for those powers would have to be in existing law, and I think there were significant curtailments of different kinds of domestic surveillance. So I don't believe that the use of force resolution changed the status quo insofar as surveillance or civil liberties is concerned."

Senator Lincoln Chafee: Asked about the President's rationale that the Iraq war resolution gave him power for NSA wiretapping, Chaffee, supporting hearings into both the constitutional questions of presidential power and the specifics of how the NSA chose its targets, said, "The key word in the resolution to my mind is 'appropriate,' " Chafee said.

Senator John McCain: When McCain was asked, "you do not believe that currently has the legal authority to engage in these warrant-less wiretaps," McCain replied, "You know, I don't think so, but why not come to Congress? We can sort this all out. ... I think they will get that authority, whatever is reasonable and needed, and increased abilities to monitor communications are clearly in order."

Representative C.L. "Butch" Otter: "The Founders envisioned a nation where people's privacy was respected and the government's business was open…These actions turn that vision on its head. If the government is willing to bend the rules on this issue, how are we supposed to believe it won't abuse the powers granted by the Patriot Act?"

George Will: "On the assumption that Congress or a court would have been cooperative in September 2001, and that the cooperation could have kept necessary actions clearly lawful without conferring any benefit on the nation's enemies, the president's decision to authorize NSA's surveillance without the complicity of a court or Congress was a mistake. Perhaps one caused by this administration's almost metabolic urge to keep Congress unnecessarily distant and hence disgruntled."

Norm Ornstein, American Enterprise Institute (AEI): "I think if we're going to be intellectually honest here, this really is the kind of thing that Alexander Hamilton was referring to when impeachment was discussed."

Grover Norquist, President of Americans for Tax Reform: "Public hearings on this issue are essential to addressing the serious concerns raised by alarming revelations of NSA electronic eavesdropping."

Former U.S. Rep. Bob Barr: "When the Patriot Act was passed shortly after 9-11, the federal government was granted expanded access to Americans' private information," said Barr. "However, federal law still clearly states that intelligence agents must have a court order to conduct electronic surveillance of Americans on these shores. Yet the federal government overstepped the protections of the Constitution and the plain language of FISA to eavesdrop on Americans' private communication without any judicial checks and without proof that they are involved in terrorism."

Paul Weyrich, Chairman and CEO, Free Congress Foundation: "I believe that our executive branch cannot continue to operate without the checks of the other branches. However, I stand behind the President in encouraging Congress to operate cautiously during the hearings so that sensitive government intelligence is not given to our enemies."

Robert Levy, Constitutional Scholar and Federalist Society Board Member: "The text of FISA §1809 is unambiguous: 'A person is guilty of an offense if he intentionally engages in electronic surveillance … except as authorized by statute.'…I know of no court case that has denied there is a reasonable expectation of privacy by U.S. citizens and permanent resident aliens in the types of wire communications that are reportedly monitored by the NSA's electronic surveillance program." <http://www.fed-soc.org/pdf/domesticsurveillance.pdf>

Bruce Fein, Constitutional Scholar And Former Deputy Attorney General In The Reagan Administration: Asked if spying on the American people was as impeachable an offense as lying about having sex with an intern, Fein responded, "I think the answer requires at least in part considering what the occupant of the presidency says in the aftermath of wrongdoing or rectification. On its face, if President Bush is totally unapologetic and says I continue to maintain that as a war-time President I can do anything I want -- I don't need to consult any other branches -- that is an impeachable offense. It's more dangerous than Clinton's lying under oath because it jeopardizes our democratic dispensation and civil liberties for the ages. It would set a precedent that … would lie around like a loaded gun, able to be used indefinitely for any future occupant."

David Keene, chairman, American Conservative Union: "The need to reform surveillance laws and practices adopted since 9/11 is more apparent now than ever. No one would deny the government the power it needs to protect us all, but when that power poses a threat to the basic rights that make our nation unique, its exercise must be carefully monitored by Congress and the courts. This is not a partisan issue; it is an issue of safeguarding the fundamental freedoms of all Americans so that future administrations do not interpret our laws in ways that pose constitutional concerns."

Alan Gottlieb, Founder, Second Amendment Foundation: "If the law is not reformed, ordinary Americans' personal information could be swept into all-encompassing federal databases encroaching upon every aspect of their private lives. This is of particular concern to gun owners, whose rights guaranteed under the Second Amendment are currently being infringed upon under the Patriot Act's controversial record search provisions."

http://www.democrats.org/a/2006/02/bi-partisan_con.php



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2443277&mesg_id=2443277
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bluethruandthru Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. Now that we're all in agreement...
What happens? How do we move this from the talking stage to the action (impeachment) stage?
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
2. And let's be honest: he's violating the Constitution as well
Edited on Tue Feb-07-06 09:54 AM by kenny blankenship
Bush isn't just breaking a law, this (FISA) is law that goes to the root of Constitutional protection of civil liberties, and it exists because a President was abusing the powers of the Executive branch before. In other words the law was created to remove any gray areas that might be exploited to enable the abuse of Executive power. The whole matter was hashed out between the Executive and the Judiciary and was addressed by new law passed by the Legislative and signed by the Executive, which lays out bright lines to guide lawful surveillance and maintains Constitutional balance over this power, ensuring it should not be abused by an "elected dictatorship". When Bush breaks this law he's not just committing a felony act, he is violating the Constitution's safeguards against the President acting as or becoming a dictator. That is to say, Bush is violating the most fundamental precepts of the Constitution establishing the structure of our system of government, along with violating the fourth amendment rights of citizens.

And it should follow without saying that since these are not simple oversights but deliberate and overt acts, that Bush has voided his oath of office to uphold that Constitution. He must be removed.
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. We DON'T KNOW who they're spying on....
This is the point that keeps being missed. What do you think the odds are that they're spying on their political opponents? It's not an outrageous idea, considering they don't have to prove to us that they're only spying on Al Queda. How do the Republicans become so well-organized so quickly in a political campaign? How did the Swiftboat people organize so quickly and manage to get a well-publicized campaign against John Kerry so "swiftly"? There's alot more to this than meets the eye.
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. In this age of erasable digital technology
and with the help of very loyal friends, now it's gotta be much easier to spy on political opponents without leaving evidence behind.
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Arkansas Granny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
4. Even though it doesn't guarantee that any action will actually be
taken against Bush and his illegal activities, I have been surprised by the number of Republicans who have spoken out about them. This takes it out of the realm of being perceived as strictly partisan politics.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
6. So what are they doing to stop this lawbreaking
It's their job. If they really love their country and democracy they need to inforce the laws. They did it with Clinton, now they need to do it with Bush.
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