Vilsack is right and wrong....

[SaveElmer]

I know this is an invitation to a DLC hatefest, but on many of these threads today some are asking where the DLC defenders are. Well I suppose I am probably identified as one of them. Here's how I see it.

1. Tom Vilsack is absolutely correct as to how Democrats have been raked over the coals by Republicans on issues of national security. It is simply a fact, and it is prudent to make sure that our message on this issue is framed to our benefit.

2. Tom Vilsack is dead wrong as to the legality of these wiretaps. They CLEARLY broke the law. There is no ambiguity here. Bush ignored FISA, and for that ought to be punished in my view.

3. When campaigning on this issue, this is what needs to be emphasized. If it gets framed that Democrats oppose wiretaps on terrorists, we lose again. But, if we frame it as an invasion of personal liberties, and I am encouraged by how this has gone so far, this is a big winner for us , particularly in the west and southwest. Issues of personal privacy resonate strongly particularly there, and this issue, Terri Schiavi, and the numerous other ways the current Republican Party try to invade our private lives will help us in these areas particularly.

4. It is WRONG to call for party purges, and to advocate the defeat of every DLC member because of Vilsack's statement. Some of the strongest voices against Bush's illegal wiretapping are DLC members. The DLC is not a monolithic organization, and despite the visceral hatred for them, they have many good ideas on how Democrats can regain the advantage on issues that usually work against us.

[JAbuchan08]

1. You're right the DLC is no monolith

at any given time half of them are dropping their pants while the other half are pulling them up.

[SaveElmer]

2. Pretty much the same with any poltical organization...nt

[savemefromdumbya]

3. Democrats need lesson in how to handle the media

With this wiretap thing it needs somebody to go after Bush and Cheney over the fact they haven't got Bin Ladin or any of the others. They need to ridicule Bush in how he's spending taxpayers money snooping on old ladies and children's Spongebob conversations?

The key point is that all this is a waste if they aren't finding the guys! Bush started this BEFORE 9/11 and look what happened? We know the NSA has to gather intelligence but when it is done in the syle of the former FEMA director Brown then the public should be asking questions?

[SaveElmer]

4. No argument from me there...

Bush needs to be ridiculed!!!

[Greyhound]

5. Sure some of them bleat about the illegal spying, but they also support

the agenda and goals of the corporatist, which if they are successful at fully implementing, will make wiretapping a quaint bit of nostalgia that you kids will never hear about.

[Jujiman]

6. DLC Has "Good" Ideas... When? Where?

"they have many good ideas on how Democrats can regain the advantage on issues that usually work against us."

I've not seen any good ideas from the DLC.

I'm STILL VERY ANGRY over The DLC support of:

* NAFTA*
* GATT *
* China Permanent Most Favored Status*
* Iraq War Vote Support*
* Constant Appeasement Strategy*

I just do not see what you are referring to.

:shrug:

[SaveElmer]

7. Many very helpful position papers on their website...

Gun Control, Environment, Choice etc...go take a look...you will see thenm there.

[Jujiman]

8. If DLC Supports Disasters like NAFTA, Why Support DLC?

This is what I do not understand. The DLC is pro-corporatist to the

exclusion of common sense. I KNEW NAFTA was a VERT BAD IDEA at the time!

But not the "bright" ones at the DLC. So now you want me to go look at their

"positions". HA HA HA!!! Gun control? Are you serious? W.T.F. is it going to

take to help you "pro-DLCers" to see how bad it really is?

"Gun control" is not the issue of our times! ILLEGAL SPYING, TORTURE,

STEALING AT LEAST TWO NATIONAL ELECTIONS.These are a few of "todays" issues.

At this point i see the DLC as a REPUBLICAN OPERATION!

:shrug:

[SaveElmer]

9. Whatever...

I've responded to this same stale diatribe innumerable times...feel free to do a quick search and I am sure you will find them...

I had hoped the thread would focus on the wiretapping issue, but put the letters DLC anywhere in the post and 90% of them are exactly like yours.

[Jujiman]

12. You Never Responded To The Question Of NAFTA!

So you like what NAFTA has done? You STILL support the DLC,

even after all the disasters? Why should I support a GOP LITE?

It an honest question! Not "whatever".

:shrug:

[SaveElmer]

13. As I have explained innumerable times...

I do not agree with everything the DLC has advocated, nor do I agree with everything the PDA has advocated, nor do I agree with everything the Democratic Party has advocated. I see value in all of these organizations. I supported NAFTA when it was being passed, I see the problems with it which is why I opposed CAFTA until those problems are corrected. I do support the concept of free trade however.

I am not arrogant enough to believe I am correct all of the time, nor am I arrogant enough to believe someone else is wrong all of the time. Fact is, the vast majority of DLC members are good and loyal Democrats and I support them. I have read dozens of DLC position papers, and I have seen many with excellent merit. Their gun control papers do not advocate an NRA position, but rather give excellent advice for Democrats to reframe the debate so that it is argued on our turf, not the NRA's. I have also seen many that I do not agree with. Doesn't mean they are evil, it means they are wrong on those issues. Just as many non-DLC Democrats are wrong on issues sometimes. DOesn't mean I don't believe they are good Democrats, just that they are wrong.

Most of all I do not judge an organization or person on the basis of one action, unless that action is so egregious that it cannot be overlooked. If I did that, I cannot think of one politician, living or dead that I would have supported.

[Capn Sunshine]

10. Vilsack hasn't been right since he shivved Howard Dean in Iowa

why should we expect anything remotely close now?
He is SO WRONG on this issue.

More pantywaist dithering as the jackboots march outside.

[stickdog]

11. FISA allows you to wiretap terrorists today and ask for the warrant

days later.

Nobody has explained a single sensible rationale for how or why giving the executive branch the SOLE discretion to wiretap US citizens can help catch terrorists.

The frame should be, if they are doing this to catch terrorists why can't they simply present their evidence to the secret FISA court that never turns them down? Bush asks us to trust him on this, but if HE doesn't have anything to hide, why not get just the warrants after the fact?

[Armstead]

14. Taken alone, I'd agree with you. But it is part of a larger DLC pattern

I agree with you (and partially Vilsac) that this needs to be fought on the basis of violating liberty and privacy rather than national security.

But that advice can;t be seen alone. It's part of the DLC pattern. Pick any issue, and the DLC's reflexive response is almost ALWAYS "We can't fight the GOP on that."

That's the fatal error that made so many Democrats get into bed with the Neo-Cons in endorsing the Iraq War. It's also why we keep caving in on so many other issues on all fronts.

That's the problem with centrism. The good advice gets lost among the constant beating down of positions that the Democrats should be taking.

[Debi]

15. Don't you get the feeling that Vilsack is kind of a StepfordDLCer?

He will do all he needs to in order to get the DLC support for his '08 bid. He'll say whatever is necessary and smile on cue. republican/Democrat, he doesn't care, just wants to live in the big White House up on the hill. :eyes:

Not good enough for me.