Radical Christians voting GOP may be joined by average Christians

[papau]

In a discuusion about getting Democratic Party leaning groups off their asses and voting Democratic this year, it was noted to me that while we expect to lose most of the Fundi Christians, we get "not voting" from left leaning and Democratic Party leaning moderate Christians.

The problem is suggested as being the party image - where the GOP has sold the standard "soft on war/defense and getting folks to work" - plus the Bush "they were taken over by atheists who ridicule and mock believers" mantra.

Indeed when I try to find out why middle of the road and left of center Christians refuse to vote the answer is they do not want to vote for the GOP and they will not vote for a Democratic party where they are treated like crap.

When we discuss the constant atheist pity party that tells us "the Christians are in charge of everything" thereby giving license to atheists for both "woe is me" and "Christians are not reasoning, not logical, not scientific, not good, not having real ethics because the choose ethical behavior for the wrong reason, Christian Democrats are willing to kick atheists and gays to the curb, etc.", I tell them they need to get past that noise because the Democratic Party is 90% Christian - and that is just background noise that should not affect their vote. Indeed the "you will kick us to the curb insult" by a small group that rarely votes is not something to worry about. Everyone wants their issue to be first in line, and the noise by the gays and atheist are just an attempt to be first in line.

But it is hard getting the liberal Christians to vote Democratic - we should be getting 90% of that Christian vote, but we get about half.

Getting groups off their asses and voting Democratic this year will not be easy.

[Zenlitened]

1. Is it that easy to scare off "good" christians? They will opt not to do...

... the right thing because a handful of atheists are being big meanies?

Talk about "pity parties." :eyes:



Cross-posted for reading convenience. :D

[trotsky]

2. It is unfair to blame atheists for the flaws in your religion.

If people could truly buy into the "love thy neighbor as thyself," then they wouldn't care if atheists, Jews, Muslims, or any other group didn't happen to agree with them on their religious beliefs but would instead be able to focus on the secular political goals of the party.

But then I think I remember you stating yourself that you were opposed to secularism, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised by your scapegoating of atheists.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FreedomAngel82]

32. Personally

I could care less and it doesn't stop me from voting democratic because the democratic party is best for me and the country. The republicans don't care about anything except for making money and I know that by using my brains. Religion is personal and should be.

[trotsky]

3. "the noise by the gays and atheist (sic)"

Nice, papau. Real nice. How dare those gays demand civil rights, including the right to have legal recognition of their monogamous loving relationships.

Are YOU sure you're in the right party?

[papau]

6. No one ever said - I never said- that gay or atheist rights should be lost

But cause is to an extent judged by the messenger - and that messenger's attitude and tolerance and comity and just being nice are used to judge the priority of the cause.

Granted that being silent means you are forgotten. But being constantly loud in your face with put downs does not make for a lot of allies.

[trotsky]

30. Baloney.

You just don't want atheists, gays, or anyone else YOU don't approve of to voice their opinions and risk offending the poor innocent Christians. Go to the back of the bus, you gays and atheists, just pipe down and don't say anything in defense of your rights, we Christians will take good care of you.

Horse hockey. Your bigotry is on display for all to see, papau.

[Sugarcoated]

36. In all your militant fundi-ness

you don't get it

[Beetwasher]

5. Since When Are Atheists Speaking for the Democratic Party?

WTF are you talking about? As far as I know, not one single elected Dem or party leader even claims to be an atheist.

The only place I see atheists loudly criticising Xtians is here on DU, otherwise, it's pretty non-existent in any meaningful way that would effect how most mainstream Xtians would vote. What I DO see is whackos on the right claiming that atheist Dems are attacking Xtianity. But there's no evidence of it other than their baseless accusations.

Way to buy the other sides propoganda. They should put you on the payroll.

[papau]

8. If DU is a face of the Dem party, DU needs to cut down the volume of

the loudly in your face atheists - as the outside world that we are trying to influence gets the wrong message -

or perhaps they in your view they get the right - albeit losing elections - message.

Just about every media - not just "whackos on the right" claim to see atheist Dems attacking Xtianity.

Perhaps you could list out the reasons why an observer of the DemocraticUnderground web site should not "buy the other sides propaganda" and indeed should feel comfortable as at least being tolerated in the Democratic Party?

[Beetwasher]

11. DU is Not The Face of the Dem Party

What ever gave you that idea? That's seriously delusional.

Ahh, yes, atheists should just sit down and shut up and not criticize religion. How tolerant of you. :eyes:

"Perhaps you could list out the reasons why an observer of the DemocraticUnderground web site should not "buy the other sides propaganda" and indeed should feel comfortable as at least being tolerated in the Democratic Party?"

One reason, and one reason only. Only an idiot would make their decision about party preference based on their reading of DU.

I'll be as goddamned loud and in your face as I damn well please and do it right here on DU. If anyone thinks I speak for the Democratic party or that because I do it on DU that DU endorses my opinions or that DU speaks for the Dem party, then they're stupid as hell.

[papau]

12. To be atheist so as to avoid God;s judgement of your life - to be on DU

and to also claim the right to not be judged on your actions.

Seems a theme - at least in your version of atheism.

[Beetwasher]

14. Who's Doing Any Such Thing??? WTF Are You Talking About????

Man, you are spouting some crazy shit. Who's talking about judgement??? Where am I claiming any right not to be judged by anyone, including god???

Judge me all the fuck you want, I could care less. :shrug:

Seriously, you're rambling incoherently.

[papau]

15. Oh you are being judged - and it appears by your posts that you do not

like the feeling.

Avoiding judgement by avoiding God has a long history - but whatever floats your boat.

[Beetwasher]

17. LOL!!! Wow!

Now, tell me, how would I avoid judgement by god, supposing there is one? And precisely HOW is an atheist trying to avoid this?

Yeah, I'm sure I am being judged by you, so what? I could care less. Crazy people's opinions are pretty irrelevant to me.

[papau]

18. I shall pray for you and for your enlightenment - but until then I will

tolerate you and your calling me crazy.

[Beetwasher]

19. LOL!

Pray away. It's so effective.

[Wind Dancer]

7. I've found liberal Christians are furious with the GOP.

Many of the churches have become businesses, not places of worship. The mega corporate ones are springing up everywhere seducing normal people to believe in this RW religious dogma. In NC, these corporate churches have doubled since 2001, it's no accident. I've had 2 very good friends turn from kind and caring people into angry, vicious, homophobic neurotics as a result of their "new found" religion.

George Lakoff has done a great job analyzing how the RW fundies, conservatives, libertarians, etc. have all come together under the same ideology, the strict father figure. Progressives fall into the nurturing, caring family - it makes sense if you read his entire works.

http://www.wwcd.org/issues/Lakoff.html

[papau]

10. I agree - the reaction I get is not to vote for the GOP- it is just not to

vote.

Last night I was trying to drum up some enthusiasm for the Democratic Party and DU was mentioned to me as a reason to forget about it (old folks spending time on library computers - who knew! :-)

In any case the positive "what are we fighting for" might work next time - sort of a change the subject approach!

:toast:

[Wind Dancer]

I'm confused.

What kind of person would refuse to vote for a Dem because of DU? It doesn't make sense to me.

I'm more concerned with Dems not embracing equal rights for everyone, including gay marriage. I don't want the Party to try and be more religious than the the Repubs. Let's please keep "God and Government" separate, they are a lethal combination as history has taught us.

[papau]

21. I was at the Newton Public Library - and -sorry - DU was being looked at

and indeed that led to the conversations that are the reason for this thread.

I agree we need to keep "God and Government" separate.

But these old folk felt shit upon after going to DU and I was trying to, rather poorly, to change their minds.

[Wind Dancer]

23. What were they upset about?

Most of the spiritual people I know are tired of "organized" faux religion being shoved down their throats for political gain. If these people at Newton Public Library are liberal Christians, I would think they would be accepting of all beliefs and unbelievers.

Are they upset that Dems are not willing to accept gay marriage?

Do they believe that a War on Christmas exists?

I'm trying to figure out why these folks aren't voting.

[papau]

25. On issues they were as liberal as I - so I thought it would be a short

not very serious conversation.

But the DU thing came up.

It may have been a first impression problem - but there was a problem.

I suspect they will go to Church and then vote or not vote based on the weather - but at least in conversation DU was not helping their get out and vote zeal.

[Wind Dancer]

27. If they refuse to vote liberal because of a first glance at DU,

than something is wrong. I don't know if they were playing you or you are playing us.

[Zenlitened]

24. I agree. The idea that someone would toss away their right to vote...

... because of what they read on a message board just defies belief.

And I agree, too, about trying to out-religion the repubs: that sounds like a guaranteed losing strategy, to me.

I think a really vocal, unapologetic stand on keeping god out of government would energize far more voters than any sort of "um, we like god too" mush.

[papau]

26. That could work - if it included toleration & respect & no put downs

Indeed most of the folks I have done political work for over the years have used that approach - but with the respect thing up front and obvious.

[Zenlitened]

28. So does that mean the pity party is over?

:shrug:

[Zenlitened]

29. BTW, re: "toleration & respect & no put downs"

That is just TOO funny, considering the source. :rofl:

[Wind Dancer]

33. Zenlitened, it does defy logic.

I remember back in the day when people were concerned about JFK during his presidential campaign because he was a practicing Catholic.

My how things have changed.

[Zenlitened]

35. Very true. Now we've got candidates trying to "out-religion" each other.

That's just not right. And I think a candidate who would just say very plainly, "Enough of this, let's talk about policies and plans and making America better for everyone"... I think he or she would find a very eager audience for that message.

[FreedomAngel82]

34. Exactly

When I go to church I go for fellowship with other like minded religious people and just have a spiritual experience. If I want to be preached about on politics there is a time and place for that. Even Jesus said his fathers house is a house of prayer and worship for EVERYONE. Remember him and the money changers? That's the only written time when he ever got pissed off. I know this Christian is pissed off at the GOP and others like Robertson, Falwell etc. They care more about someone's personal life (being gay and abortions) than they do the things Jesus himself cared about from helping the poor to the enivornment.

[JeffR]

9. ..

:popcorn:

[Strong Atheist]

13. Wow! How nasty! Where to start? Well, you failed logic 101,

for starters.


1. the constant atheist pity party that tells us "the Christians are in charge of everything"

2. I tell them they need to get past that noise because the Democratic Party is 90% Christian

3. Indeed the "you will kick us to the curb insult" by a small group

You realize that #2 and #3 are contradict #1. In sentence #2 the Democratic Party is 90% Christian (your words!), and in sentence #3 by a small group in which case atheists that tell us that Christians are in charge of everything (your words again!) is not whining, it is true.

AS for #4

Everyone wants their issue to be first in line, and the noise by the gays and atheist are just an attempt to be first in line.

not only does it strike me as homophobic and bigoted against atheists, but it is VERY hypocritical, for this whole post is a noisy whine about how persecuted you as a majority Christian are!

Wow! Look in a mirror sometime, and learn some logic!

[papau]

16. Wrong - the atheist "Christians in charge" means ignoring minority

rights - and thatis not happening.

But thanks for playing the logic game!

:-)

I'd love to have you explain why "Everyone wants their issue to be first in line, and the noise by the gays and atheist are just an attempt to be first in line" is "homophobic and bigoted against atheists".

As to it being "VERY hypocritical" - as you said - Look in a mirror sometime, and learn some logic!

:toast:

[Arugula Latte]

20. The Christians are the ones I see as always having the pity party.

Waaaaah -- War on X-mas! Waaaaah -- We're a persecuted mass majority!

[papau]

22. I believe that is called projection in pysch - but whatever - no problem

:-)

[FreedomAngel82]

31. I'm a very very bigtime liberal Christian and

I always vote democratic. Once I voted for an indie guy but that's all. :)

[SteppingRazor]

37. Locking

Flamebait