Things are not so simple....

[kentuck]

With a press that is intimidated or has been bribed into silence and wtih an opposition Party that is disorganized and unsure of what their strategy should be, the Executive Branch is near complete control of this government. The only obstacle at this moment is the Judiciary and they have been steadfastly appointing their people to those positions.

Yes, there should be an impeachement. Yes, some should go to jail. However, that is easier said than done. There is a process for impeachment. There is a process before you can put people, even Republican crooks, into jail. Wishful thinking may make us feel better but has little to do with reality.

Our Party is divided. That is the major problem. We are not united on the war, as are most Republicans. That is the major division in our Party. But we have others. When we have Senators running form president that think spying on Americans is not an important issue, then we are in deep trouble. I wish things were simpler.

[Armstead]

1. They are simple

We have to keep pressing for the Democrats to stop talking mealy mouthed bullshit and start making the case for real meaningful change.

We also have to advocate for decent liberal and progressive values in daily life, apart from partisan politics.

There's a thirst for that, and it's not limited to us whacky denizens pof the so-called far left. Mr. and Ms. Main Street want some answers and solutions, and leaders who will defend their interests. Democrats have to start providing that leadership.


Okay, I realize it't not that simple in practice. But we shouldn't have to agonize over the basic goal.

[kentuck]

2. I understand where you are coming from....

but we cannot get our present Democratic leadership to agree on even that. We have a dysfunctional Party. They don't know what they stand for or what they should stand for. They have been confused by years of politics of triangulation and bi-partisanship. They believe in a world that does not exist, except to further the right-wing agenda.

[Armstead]

5. It's still simple -- They're just fucked up

A big problem is the centrist weeniers who are holding the Democratic Party back want to overcomplicate things needlessly.

Here's the basic formula:

Republicans -- Clearly Conservative and corporate, and the political opposition of Democrats and liberalism.

Democrats -- Clearly Liberal and Progressive and grassroots, and the political opposition of the GOP and conservatism.

In a two party system it's really that simple at base. I just wish those chuckleheads who believe we should have one-and-a-half party would smell the coffee.

[kentuck]

9. But our Party is not made up of those of which you speak...

There are many, many centrist "weenies". It is not so black and white. If we could change the make up of the Party, then we could change the way we oppose the Republicans. But that is not the present reality, unfortunately.

[Armstead]

12. I make a disstinction between centrist weenies and moderate librals

Centrist weenies try to pull the Democrats towards conservative positions and messages, especially on economic matters. They parrott the same rioght-wing corporatist pseudo-free-market CON job as the GOP.
The problem is that they try to pull things in the opposite direction of basic liberal and progressive politics.

Moderate liberals are those who recognize the need for reform and change and a return to basic liberal principles. They just may not be as impatient as the more diehard liberals and progressives. But they are moving in the same direction. (I'd call Dick Durban a moderate liberal, just as an example.)

Moderate liberals are not the problem IMO. It's the centrists who are the flies in the ointment.

[kentuck]

13. I agree with your definitions...

We need to clean house if we want to move forward.

[madfloridian]

6. Oh, but then we keep attacking and smearing the ones who DO try.

So many here are never ever satisfied, no matter what anyone says. There is no explaining anything reasonably.

That impeach article from David Swanson in GD forum right now is not really that good an article, and many of us remember the drunk Dean article he wrote about the meeting Dean kindly held privately with Cindy. He needs to learn to work with others.

The ones who say true and powerful things should be credited here, but they are not. Because Dean did not say the word impeach, he is criticized. Yet he said the VP should resign if what Libby said is proven true. But that's not enough.

People here focus on one thing, one thing at a time. Nothing else matters, nothing penetrates unless it is that thing. Today it is the word "impeach."

All of us want change, but some don't seem to see the good things going on.

It is discouraging.

[asjr]

3. I hope that enough House Republicans are

either scared out of their "seats" to start impeachment hearings or persuade Shrub to resign. The latter, of course, would take some doing as I feel he thinks he is "president for life." If we could only take over the House, we Democrats could impeach.

[ewagner]

4. The hardest part

is finding the root of the problem...start by asking Why?

Why is the party so divided?
Why is our party leadership so timid?

When we answer those questions (honestly) we can start putting together the "how do we fix it?" answers....

Asking those questions is a big, big part of the process.....

[Greyhound]

7. The second question is the answer t the first, and the answer to the

second has a three word answer; Corporate Campaign Contributions.

[kentuck]

8. War is the ultimate divisive issue...

Even if we were lied to and the war is totally irrational, a large proportion of Democrats and Republicans will still support it. If you are against the war, then you are part of the "problem", from a purely political perspective. It would be so easy if we all got behind the president and say, "my country, right or wrong" and be 100% supportive of the war. That would be one way to do it. But it ain't going to happen. Because we have hard-headed, independent thinking people that continue to "divide" our Party because they stand behind principle and truth and go against the war.

Our leaders are aware of where "these people" stand and atttempt to play both sides of the fence. Many are for the war and some are against the war and many others play word games to pretend they are both for and against the war. You are right. That is the "root" of the problem.

[mdmc]

10. I don't see a solution

as long as 15% of the opposisition party is against the war, we will always be divided...

[kentuck]

11. The solution is :

The war must run its course. When enough blood has been spilled, the people as a whole, without thought for Party, will call a halt to it. Until then, we are just voices in the wilderness, I fear.

[mdmc]

14. Is this what your sayin?

"Once you invade, you commit to occupy. In for a penny, in for a pound." Are you saying that it will only be politically viable to withdraw when a majority of Americans shout, "enough"?

The question I then pose is, "how do we wake up are American brethern and get them to support withdrawl from Iraq?"

I fear that our "voices in the wilderness" are the best way to influence public opinion against the war. Can you suggest to me a better way to galvanize public opinion to support peace?

[kentuck]

15. None are so blind as those that refuse to see...

Only when the loss affects enough people will they open their eyes. In Vietnam, it took 58,000 lives and the disintegration of our society before they opened their eyes. Still, some never opened their eyes even then. All you can do is keep preaching, brother...

[mdmc]

16. problem is, I don't know what to preach anymore

Like, when will it be okay to leave Iraq? When are they stable enough?

Bush says that the military will decide when it is time to leave. This is not true. If the military stated (all the DU / Murtha) talking points about withdrawl, Bush would remove them.

We got a long road ahead of us, don't we?

[kentuck]

17. Yes, in regards to Iraq and the war on terror...

We got a long road ahead of us. It is not so simple to get out of a maze once you enter.

[mdmc]

18. a kick

for the long road!

Peace and low stress!