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JOSHUA FRANK: The Rhetoric of Al Gore -- Not to be trusted

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Tace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:11 PM
Original message
JOSHUA FRANK: The Rhetoric of Al Gore -- Not to be trusted
(The ever controversial Joshua Frank...)

By Joshua Frank -- World News Trust

Al Gore has become somewhat of an American idol this past few years. After his departure from Washington in 2000 the ex-presidential candidate has switch-backed across the county giving thundering sermons to over-flowing auditoriums and town halls. He’s railed against the Republican agenda in Iraq, denouncing President Bush and the neocons at every turn. Gore is fast becoming the antiwar celebrity du jour, capturing the imaginations of many who fear the vicious Bush cartel.

“Normally, we Americans lay the facts on the table, talk through the choices before us and make a decision. But that didn't really happen with this war -- not the way it should have,” Gore remarked in a MoveOn.org sponsored lecture at NYU in August, 2003. “s a result, too many of our soldiers are paying the highest price, for the strategic miscalculations, serious misjudgments, and historic mistakes that have put them and our nation in harm's way.”

Some believe Gore has always been a beacon of hope, alleging it’s just too darn bad the 2000 election was stolen (or sabotaged by Ralph Nader) right out from under him. We wouldn’t be in Iraq today, they claim -- for this war on terror is purely a Republican crusade that would have never occurred under a Democratic administration, especially if Gore was at the helm.

Or, so they say.

more

http://worldnewstrust.org/modules/AMS/article.php?storyid=2384

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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well, this will prove to be one helluva thread... n/t
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. Frank hates Howard Dean too, so this is not a surprise
I've stopped reading Frank's articles. I prefer David Sirota.
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. Last time I responded to an article about Frank I called him
a "Effete, spoiled, parvenu, snot-nosed pretender"

So we can add Gore to the list of the people this person has bashed.
Let's see so far it's Pelosi, Dean,Kerry Obama, Clinton...now Gore.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I agree with your view of him.
What a sorry sack of crap.
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elshiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-15-06 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
26. That's an insult to the effete.
;)
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
5. Is there anyone Josh does not hate?
No.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
6. He's BURNISHING his REP
Sometimes also called CHOKING his CHICKEN, SPANKING his MONKEY, FLOGGING his BISHOP, WAXING his TADPOLE, and BEATING his MEAT.

--p!
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
7. has Gore discussed his views on what we should do NOW re: Iraq?
i've been extremely impressed with Gore's recent speeches ... I know his MoveOn speech was extremely critical of bush's Iraq policy ... but there are many Democrats who have criticized bush but ascribe to the misguided "we're stuck there" school ...

has Gore called for a US withdrawal from Iraq and, if so, under what timeframe and conditions?

btw, Frank may have made fair criticisms of Gore's position on Iraq as VP but he failed to provide sufficient evidence to support his allegation that Gore's "change of heart" is not real ... Gore seemed highly credible to me during his recent speeches ... he made an effective, progressive case and he made it skillfully and with great passion ... if Frank wants to carry any influence on this issue, he'd better stop firing blanks ...
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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. If he did he'd probably be wrong
I've said it for a long time now, none of us know what the situation really is. I don't think it is realistic for any politician to speculate on what they would do or for people to believe it can be done. Yeah, it would be nice if we could bring all the troops home tomorrow but that doesn't seem right because we fucked everything up but the truth is, we don't know what the truth is. We don't have a clue about what's really going on. The WH says things are going smoothly but people keep dying. Without knowing what is really going no one, not even Gore, can start talking about timeframes and conditions. We need to get those jokers out and get someone in the office who can realistically assess the situation (without worrying about the bottom lines of their friends' corporations) before taking action.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. consider this ...
Edited on Tue Feb-14-06 07:23 PM by welshTerrier2
while i don't agree with your statement that "none of us know (sic) what the situation really is", let's accept that as a starting point ... the same goes for "we don't know what the truth is. We don't have a clue about what's really going on." ... but still, let's accept that as well ...

so, we arrive at "we don't know where we are and consequently don't know what we should do" ... does that fairly state your position? you might even state the first law of medicine which is "do no harm" ...

well, that's fine ... but if we accept your premise that we don't really know the truth in Iraq and we're not able to obtain the truth, the question then becomes exactly what should we do or not do? well, in all fairness, we do know a few things ... we know the war is very, very expensive ... we know major programs to help the elderly and the poor are being cut ... we know bush has run up historic budget deficits ... we know Americans are dying at the rate of two per day ... if we wait one more year, 730 more Americans will die ... if we wait until a Democrat is President in 2009, the number killed so far will likely be doubled!! ... and this fails to address the deaths and suffering of the Iraqi people or such subtle issues as US prestige and credibility in the world ... furthermore, allowing this war to continue for 3 more years (until a Democrat is in the WH) accepts the premise that, since we don't know the truth, we should allow bush to continue what he's doing in Iraq without trying to align the American people against him ...

so, in the end, recognizing the reality that even if we don't know all we do know a lot, and understanding the death and destruction that bush and this war have caused, it seems unconscionable to "stay the course" for an additional three years ...

and finally, there is the somewhat odd and uncomfortable mixture of knowledge, beliefs and voting ... we are all voters and we cast our votes often without knowing what perhaps should be known ... still, we are empowered to do so however ignorant we may be ... and so, in the end, even absent any knowledge or all knowledge, we are nevertheless entitled to our beliefs and we are nevertheless permitted the luxury of expecting our representives in government to fight for whatever it is we believe in ... it may not be the best democracy but it's the only one we have ...
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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. What we need are elected representatives with cajones
who are willing to do what is right rather than doing what is financially beneficial for their friends and/or their own political careers. Gore raised the latter flag in his speech back in 2002 when he questioned the need to vote on the IWR before the election. He said the GOP was politicizing it and he was right. But back then, there weren't a lot of people listening.

I understand both the financial and human costs of this war. One of my best friend's ex-lovers killed himself shortly after his return from Iraq. He sought mental help, then turned to alcohol and drugs. He was an airman and he did bombing. This war tore him up. I know the toll it took on him and everyone who loved him. I know the toll it is still taking on all of us. Early on, I lost contact with a nephew, who was transferred from Afghanistan to Baghdad and didn't hear from him for three months. I know what it is like to spend every fucking minute of the day worrying. For months, worrying every time the phone rings thinking "this is it." I also know what it is like to have my nephew back and to see a child that was once so full of life become withdrawn. This war and its toll isn't something abstract for me. I've lived with it, it isn't some abstract concept for me. With that said, I don't see where I said we should let Bush do whatever he wants until 2009. Rather, I will repeat what I said before, we need to look at what is really going on and what we can do there. I'll go further, after we find out what's going on then we need to do it and do it as quickly as we can. The key is getting our representatives to listen to us and then act. If they don't then we need to get them out of office.

But back to your original question, "has Gore called for a US withdrawal from Iraq and, if so, under what timeframe and conditions?"

My original answer stands: "If he did he'd probably be wrong" this was primarily in response to the "if so, under what timeframe and conditions?" portion. Can Gore, or anyone, realistically come up with answers, that are set in stone, as to timeframe and conditions for withdrawal that will please everyone and be the ideal answer? I don't think so. If Gore said the troops should pull out on or by X date, you know damn well that the card-holding Republicans will leak or declassify some additional information that will use to discredit Gore. If Clinton set out timelines, the GOP would do the same to her. They hold the cards. We need to change that by taking control of what we can. We need to keep ourselves informed, inform others, help find candidates that are representative of the people (not corporations) and then work our asses off to get them into office later this year. I'm already working on helping to plan several campaign fundraisers later this year.

In the meantime how do we find out what's going on? We demand answers. We demand accountability. We demand that our representatives do their jobs. I called Senator Pat Roberts' office today (he's my senator) and asked about Phase 2 of the report on the pre-Iraq war failures. Kay Sharp at his Overland Park office told me it would be done next month (here's the phone call http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2459383&mesg_id=2460035) from earlier today. I'm doing what I can.

We hold the media accountable. We put pressure on them to do their jobs - investigate and report. Sometimes we have to contact the press and do their jobs for them. We tell them what we've heard (for me, I use DU) and ask them what they've heard and then ask them to write a story about it. Chances are greatly increased when you do the work for them. As the GOP knows, this also works to get a story most favorable to your position because you control the sources.

Then there's the others. This is actually the fun stuff I do to ruffle feathers. Like when I call Pat Robertson and ask him why God hates Cheney (see: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2358420&mesg_id=2358474)

Does Gore have all the answers? I highly doubt it but I'd listen to him. I trust Gore more than I do most other politicians. I trust him because he isn't (openly) running for office. His campaign theme in 2000 was "The people, not the powerful". He was right then and I think he'd be right for America in the future. So, part of my reason for him not setting timeframes and conditions is selfish. I just don't want him making pronouncements when the other side has access to more facts. I especially don't want to give the other side ammunition to kick him with later.
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Tace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
8. Well, He's Certainly A Glutton For Punishment
: )
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
10. World News Trust? What about Counterpunch?
I thought he had something to do with running that site. Did he move on?
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Tace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I'm Not Sure
He's a contributor to World News Trust. His opinions are his own.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
11. Does anybody give this guy any attention. HE can't even make a strait
argument. ALL the quotes from Gore criticize THE WAY CHENEY's Hand-puppet got us into war. Gore nowhere says or impies he is against mililtary action if its warranted AND if the electorate supports it! Gore isn't claiming to be a pacifist.


and then there is this gem:
"Gore also embraced the horrific UN sanctions, which accounted for millions of deaths, mostly poor women and children."

"millions of deaths"?? Wonder where he came up with that statistic.
Certainly, there were casualties in IRAQ due to Hussein and others skimming money from oil sales and not spending it for food, but that isn't the fault of those who supported sanctions. He is making a ludicrous attempt to present invading IRAQ as a more 'humanitarian' alternative to sanctions.... pretty pathetic propaganda.


This stuff is garbage. BAdly rendered garbage.
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Tace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. You'll Like To Know That He Sent A Correction On That Very Point...
he now says "at least half a million" instead of "millions." Cheers
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Tace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
14. Frank Just Sent Me A Corrected Revision Of His Latest Story
I pulled the original story until I can figure out what he corrected. Cheers
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Tace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
15. Frank Now Says "At Least Half A Million Deaths" Sted "More Than A Million"
in the fifth paragraph of the story (which hasn't appeared on DU). Here's a URL for the corrected version, in case anyone is interested. Cheers, Francis Goodwin

http://worldnewstrust.org/modules/AMS/article.php?storyid=2386
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Admiral Loinpresser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
18. Frank's article is complete revisionism.
Joshua Frank gives the impression that Gore didn't oppose the invasion of Iraq:

Al Gore was certainly no peacenik during his days as serving under Bill Clinton. He supported NATO’s intervention in Bosnia and bombing of the Sudan. Up until George W. Bush’s Iraq invasion Gore was even delivering stump speeches highlighting Saddam’s potential threat.

“Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter,” Gore said on September 23, 2002. “(W)e should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.”



Actually, despite Frank's spin, Gore DID oppose the IWR in the very speech quoted on 9/23/02. One sample:

"By shifting from his early focus after September 11th on war against terrorism to war against Iraq, the President has manifestly disposed of the sympathy, good will and solidarity compiled by America and transformed it into a sense of deep misgiving and even hostility. In just one year, the President has somehow squandered the international outpouring of sympathy, goodwill and solidarity that followed the attacks of September 11th and converted it into anger and apprehension aimed much more at the United States than at the terrorist network - - "

http://algore-08.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=48&Itemid=84

In other words he was perhaps the first Dem to make a major speech against the invasion. Quoting that speech to convey the opposite impression brings Frank perilously close to Al Franken's favorite word: LIAR!
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Frank is playing with his own credibility here.
He better be careful.
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Admiral Loinpresser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. BTW, Frank backed Nader in 2004. .......MORON n/t
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Tace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. You're Right - He's Got To Get His Facts Right If He's Going To Do Opinion
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Admiral Loinpresser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Frank responded to my email.
I sent my original post to Mr. Frank by email, advising him that it was published on DU. He responded. I have just sent off my rejoinder to his response. I include the whole correspondence, in reverse chronological order, only deleting here my name and phone number.

-----------------------
I am amazed at your assertion that "Gore just wanted Congress to debate the matter a bit more." This is simply false, as demonstrated by a quoted portion of the speech in question below. Actually, Gore opposed the IWR as drafted.

Above and beyond that factual inaccuracy, if you read the speech carefully you will find it replete with opposition to the doctrine of pre-emption, warnings of all the problems we are currently facing in Iraq and general condemnation for our loss of focus on the threat of Al Qaida.

As to your red herring reference to Gore not being "soft" on Saddam, only a fool would be. Saddam was a dictator who had invaded two neighboring countries in the preceding two decades, a true threat to stability in the region. Gore's point was that unilateral pre-emptive invasion was not the appropriate plan of action.

Finally as to your suspicions on Gore's trustworthiness regarding Iraq, he has been consistent with international opinion. He supported the first Gulf War, as did essentially every nation except Iraq. He opposed the second Gulf War, as did most of Europe and the rest of the world.

Regards,
XXXX XXXXXXXX

"WHAT CONGRESS SHOULD DO I

believe, therefore, that the resolution that the President has asked Congress to pass is much too broad in the authorities it grants, and needs to be narrowed. The President should be authorized to take action to deal with Saddam Hussein as being in material breach of the terms of the truce and therefore a continuing threat to the security of the region. To this should be added that his continued pursuit of weapons of mass destruction is potentially a threat to the vital interests of the United States. But Congress should also urge the President to make every effort to obtain a fresh demand from the Security Council for prompt, unconditional compliance by Iraq within a definite period of time. If the Council will not provide such language, then other choices remain open, but in any event the President should be urged to take the time to assemble the broadest possible international support for his course of action. Anticipating that the President will still move toward unilateral action, the Congress should establish now what the administration's thinking is regarding the aftermath of a US attack for the purpose of regime change.

Specifically, Congress should establish why the president believes that unilateral action will not severely damage the fight against terrorist networks, and that preparations are in place to deal with the effects of chemical and biological attacks against our allies, our forces in the field, and even the home-front. The resolution should also require commitments from the President that action in Iraq will not be permitted to distract from continuing and improving work to reconstruct Afghanistan, an that the United States will commit to stay the course for the reconstruction of Iraq. The Congressional resolution should make explicitly clear that authorities for taking these actions are to be presented as derivatives from existing Security Council resolutions and from international law: not requiring any formal new doctrine of pre-emption, which remains to be discussed subsequently in view of its gravity."


Joshua Frank wrote:
Oh goodness. More Dem ignorance. If you read the whole speech you'll notice that Gore just wanted Congress to debate the matter a bit more. That's great. But I don't think anyone can walk away thinking he was "soft" on Saddam. Hardly. And given his history with Iraq in the 1990s in particular, I don't believe Gore is to be trusted on the matter.

Cheers,
j

On 2/14/06, Admiral Loinpresser wrote:
Dear Mr. Frank: Below is what I posted on Democratic Underground in response to your misleading article about Al Gore.

Regards,
XXXXX XXXXXXXX
XXX-XXX-XXXX

---------------------------------

Joshua Frank gives the impression that Gore didn't oppose the invasion of Iraq:

Al Gore was certainly no peacenik during his days as serving under Bill Clinton. He supported NATO's intervention in Bosnia and bombing of the Sudan. Up until George W. Bush's Iraq invasion Gore was even delivering stump speeches highlighting Saddam's potential threat.

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter," Gore said on September 23, 2002. "(W)e should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."



Actually, despite Frank's spin, Gore DID oppose the IWR in the very speech quoted on 9/23/02. One sample:

"By shifting from his early focus after September 11th on war against terrorism to war against Iraq, the President has manifestly disposed of the sympathy, good will and solidarity compiled by America and transformed it into a sense of deep misgiving and even hostility. In just one year, the President has somehow squandered the international outpouring of sympathy, goodwill and solidarity that followed the attacks of September 11th and converted it into anger and apprehension aimed much more at the United States than at the terrorist network - - "

http://algore-08.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=...

In other words he was perhaps the first Dem to make a major speech against the invasion. Quoting that speech to convey the opposite impression brings Frank perilously close to Al Franken's favorite word: LIAR!



--
www.BrickBurner.org
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
22. what about the neoCONs
Gore makes more sense than them and all the M$MWs put together.

all the FUCKED UP problems he pithily deigns to note are SERIOUS and yet the M$MWs to this very day REFUSE to acknowledge those facts other them to rub our noses in it :argh:

peace
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Tace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
24. You May Agree, Or Disagree -- But Joshua Frank Is Doing Good Work
I know he pisses a lot of people off. I have been posting his work here because I feel that he makes a positive, if somewhat catalytic, contribution to a dialog about current events. I also happen to share his anti-war position, and his criticism of politicians of any stripe who support war.

Anyway, as the editor of World News Trust, I stand behind Joshua Frank as a journalist and commentator, and I will continue to provide a platform for him to express his views.

You too. Send your stuff to WorldNewsTrust@yahoo.com

WNT encourages a robust debate about world events.

Cheers, Francis Goodwin, WNT managing editor.


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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
25. Since when did we start caring about David Brooks . . .
Oh, sorry! I mean to say Joshua Frank! My Bad!!!!

:evilgrin:
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