Were you aware that the Pilgrims who died did so due to Socialism?

[zbdent]

And not disease, nor the fact that a lack of good medical treatment, nor the fact that they landed in the Northeast at the early stages of winter and not being able to grow crops? (I've also heard about how they could have lived high on the hog if they didn't think that shellfish was evil - lobster, you know . . .)

This had the misfortune to print simultaneously in three Akron papers on Thanksgiving day, 2004 (Akron Beacon Journal, West Side Leader, and the Montrose Sun). Pretty much a "trifecta" . . . and all three papers printed it word-for-word, and had the exact same author.

Here's the drivel (which really dumbs things down to make a rightie point):

"The story of Thanksgiving

This year, let's try to get the Thanksgiving story right. The Pilgrim fathers came to the New World so that they could be free to practice their religion the way they wanted to and to force everyone else to practice it that way, too. Before establishing their colony, they met together and signed the infamous Mayflower Compact, in which they pledged to work together, build common housing, till common fields, share alike in the resulting crops.

Not surprisingly, they found that this primitive form of socialism didn't work in practice. All were willing -- eager, even -- to share the output; but few were willing to work much for the benefit of others. Consequently, not much was produced, and all they shared were shortages and suffering. In fact, almost half of them died the first year from malnutrition and related illnesses.

Those who survived finally wised up, abandoned socialism and decided to let each family own and till its own fields and keep its own produce. This switch to a basically free-enterprise system paid off, and the resulting abundant harvests produced the country's first agricultural surplus. Then -- and only then -- they gathered together and celebrated the first Thanksgiving.

So let us not forget what this day really represents: a time to give thanks not only for the bountiful plenty that we enjoy; but also for the free-enterprise/free-market socioeconomic system that makes it possible."

[brainshrub]

1. Link please.

Thanks in advance.

:)

[Wickerman]

2. as I already said once today

"Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy."

- Wendell Berry

[WCGreen]

3. I love that....

Marvelous....

[trotsky]

7. That is a great quote.

I'll pair it with another of my favorites:

"Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell." — Edward Abbey

[ET Awful]

4. I think it should be responded to with just as outrageous an analogy

blaming greed and capitalism for the Donner party. :P

[Mythsaje]

5. If it didn't work

it's because they were a bunch of self-centered, egocentric, and selfish bastards and didn't bother to try.

Socialism sure worked well for the people who bailed them out the first Thanksgiving.

[LiberalPartisan]

6. Good observation

About the 'socialist' society in which the Wampanoags lived. I never looked at it like that.

[Mythsaje]

8. Most native tribes

were to some extent socialist. It's one of the most successful models of socialism we have to look back upon. Socialism/Communism works very well in small groups, it just falls apart when it's spread over too large an area.

[EC]

14. Same goes for Capitalism

it falls apart when competition is gobbled up by mega businesses...


on edit: there is no free market without competition...

[arcane1]

9. no shit. Once the pilgrims actually LEARNED HOW TO FARM...

THEN, and ONLY then, did they stop starving

[Mythsaje]

10. Makes you wonder

if these people who write this crap can actually think at all.

[rkc3]

11. Keep in mind that when things were going bad (at least according

to the History Channel), the Pilgrims raided Native American villages/settlements for their winter stores. Early Pilgrim leaders made this possible by portraying them as the Anti-Christ.

[EC]

16. As did the Dutch in Manhatten, and the French all over

they were all ignorant about survival...the Dutch nearly starved to death because they killed so many of the Manahata Indians, which in turn caused the Dutch to have to stay in their fort instead of farming and hunting because they feared the Indians would kill them...they eventually had to rely on the Indians to save them....

[The White Tree]

13. Methinks you are correct

I found this link about the Mayflower Compact. Note the Circumstances as described by William Bradford - observing some not well affected to unity and concord, but gave some appearance of faction:

<http://www.project21.org/MayflowerCompact.html>

The Mayflower Compact was drawn up on the Mayflower, under these circumstances as described by Gov. William Bradford: "This day, before we came to harbour, observing some not well affected to unity and concord, but gave some appearance of faction, it was thought good there should be an association and agreement, that we should combine together in one body, and to submit to such government and governors as we should by common consent agree to make and choose, and set our hands to this that follows, word for word. . ."

That's a little at odds with the letter writers assertion that everyone was eager to work together. If they were eager to work to gether maybe they would have been more succesful. The moral is not that capitalism works it's that commited socialism might work better, particularly in small communities if the entire community is committed to it. This seems to have been proven by the many, many succesful communes that exist in the world today.

And that doesn't even take into account all the physical factors that were by far the more over riding factors in the lack of success of this colony. For example, it was my understanding that they landed in the wrong place and were trying to head somewhere closer to Virginia then were they did land.

[rockymountaindem]

15. That's the first thing that came to my mind

Well, first I thought "that's insane". Then I thought "seemed to work well enough for the Wampanoags".

[MrBenchley]

12. "almost half of them died the first year"

In a large part because they idiotically sailed in August, 1620 and arrived in December of that year with inadequate provisions.

Of course, the Puritans believed in predestination; God had already decided which of them was damned and which were saved. A harsh winter was just His instrument for winnowing the chaff from the wheat.

[pschoeb]

17. More BS than you think,

The Mayflower Compact did not create a socialist arrangement, it was a very short document for quasi-democratic rule, and was made on the voyage because of already existing factionlism. The agreement that made them "share" was the corporate contract with their financers, a joint stock company of Merchant Adventurers(in the original agreement most were not colonists), who were to supply the cost of their trip and manufactored needs, with payment from the colonists of all their work and specific trade goods, for seven year, at which time the corporate property would be divided. Many of the persons had no money to put up as part of this corporatist arrangment, so they were in fact signed indentured servants agreements for the seven years. Essentially this was originally a kind of Plantation organization, which the indentured servants didn't like much. This is where much of the strife and contention came from, and essentially they ended up with many financial woes and eventual reorganization of the joint stock company, where some of the colonist's bought up the shares. So far from socialism this was corporatist capitalism at it's worst.

[KansDem]

18. "...decided to let each family own and till its own fields"

Works for me!

Where and when do I get these fields? Can I get them before summer? I'd like a place to go for a little vacation, you know...

Who do I see about getting these fields? Is a drug test of credit check required?

[newspeak]

19. what BS

Socialism?:rofl: actually, I read it was greed and jealousy. You see one part of the town (towards the port was prosperous while the other part (inland) was not as prosperous. There was jealousy among those who were struggling to survive, while other families were prospering very well, indeed. Then, there was the article about the mold on the grain which causes hallucinations :smoke: Of course, it could be about young girls with active imaginations living in a very repressive atmosphere wanting attention and power. The socialism argument is laughable!!!!

[newspeak]

20. oh, by the way

I have always thought that the Donner Party would have survived if they had pulled their resources together and shared heat, like the long houses of the Indians and the Scandinavians. But, their party was also fractured because a killing that happened before they had reached the mountains. When found, some of those who survived still had some provisions left while others died. They could have made one big soup pot and divided using their provisions and what they could scavenge.