Ted Rall Flight 93 Cartoon

[Bushknew]

[Terran1212]

1. Rumsfeld did say the plane was shot down in a conference

But we're not sure if it was just a slip or maybe a fruedian slip..

[dicknbush]

2. this is a test

this is a test

[regnaD kciN]

3. Huh...!

"The 9/11 Commission says there's no proof of a passenger revolt -- and that they never entered the cockpit!"

In other words, "they never revolted, and, anyway, the revolt failed." :wtf:

Mr. Rall is being disingenuous. Only the latter part is true -- they never got into the cockpit, but they were trying to break down the cockpit door by ramming it with what was likely a beverage cart when the hijackers crashed the plane.

[high density]

32. Haven't victims relatives heard the cockpit voice recording?

I thought it recorded some sort of disturbance between the hijackers and some passengers.

[gasperc]

38. there were voice recordings on the AE and discovery movies

RAll is kinda being a Dick here, the 9/11 report said they didn't enter the cockpit but they did try to storm it. there are cell phone calls to prove it

[whyzayker]

41. Yes...

...except for the last 5-10 seconds of the tape.

[JackRiddler]

4. k & r

The story of 9/11 lies is breaking everywhere but here it seems - in the Village Voice this week.

[Bushknew]

11. What is the Village Voice saying about 911 Jack?

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bushknew]

16. Thanks nt

[Neil Lisst]

5. great!!

he's great, as always!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

6. I thought cartoons were supposed

to be funny.

[TomInTib]

7. You're back!

Where have you been?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

8. Took a brief break

when the world started to look too grim. I lasted about six days. Hard time keeping my mouth shut, I guess.

[TomInTib]

9. Then don't keep it shut.

We need you.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

10. You flatter me

I like it.

[TomInTib]

12. I am serious.

You should have seen how much havoc you created when you said, "Adios".

There were people here combing all kinds of sites looking for you.

As with my friend oldleftielawyer, these kids (of which I am definitely not) here need some cutting, incisive, "seasoned" perspective in the mix.

Feeling guilty yet?

Think about that next time you think about jumping ship.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

13. Damn!

And I thought this was a pretty anonymous site! Seriously, I knew I had a couple of acquaintances, but I really figured folks don't bother with old grannies.

I feel drawn here for some reason. I really don't understand it. I wish I could meet some of these folks. I know I am much more moderate than most in my political views, but yet I still feel these are "my people." Maybe a lifetime of teaching art and then gifted kids....

I just have to learn not to let the angst get me down. I mean, when you have thousands of folks posting, it stands to reason that some are depressed, some under the influence, some suffering from other mood issues. But it just tears me up when I hear a young person post that death camps are being readied for is all. How awful to live under that burden.

Anyway, I'm here and it's a good time to be here because I think we are going to start getting some satisfaction very soon.

[CTyankee]

42. Hi, TN grannie

I'm a CT grannie myself and I always enjoy your posts. I try not to let the bad things get me down so I keep busy with LTTEs, rants with my prochoice friends, political meetings. Plus, I am increasing my traveling so I can go to places I couldn't go before I semi-retired. Just got back from St. John with my granddaughters and going to LA to see my grandson in May.

Somehow all this keeps me sane. All my worries seem to come out in my dreams, tho.

[NoPasaran]

29. Yeah!

Let's burn down an embassy!
:sarcasm:

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WildEyedLiberal]

17. So the only reason passengers would possibly try to overcome hijackers....

... is because they're Bush loving Repukes out to save our "beloved president" from harm?

Only Republicans would have any desire to minimize loss of life upon finding out that their plane was being hijacked and crashed into a building?

That sounds like something Rush would say. Sorry, this cartoon is not at all funny, and pretty offensive. I wasn't on Flight 93 so I have no idea what happened, but I fail to see how belitting the idea that ordinary people might fight back in such a circumstance, and implying that to do so would make one a brainwashed Bushbot, is at all humorous or "progressive."

[Bushknew]

18. The toon is about propaganda / misinformation

The toon says, who approved this script of flight 93, the 911 commission says there is no proof of a passenger revolt or of them entering the cockpit?

Likewise, many Americans still believe Iraq actually attacked the US on 911, thanks to the misinformation from Bush and Cheney.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/09/16/cheney_link_of_iraq_911_challenged/

Nonetheless, 69 percent of Americans believe that Hussein probably had a part in attacking the United States, according to a recent Washington Post poll. And Democratic senators have charged that the White House is fanning the misperception by mentioning Hussein and the Sept. 11 attacks in ways that suggest a link.

Former senator Max Cleland, who is a member of the national commission investigating the attacks, said yesterday that classified documents he has reviewed on the subject weaken, rather than strengthen, administration assertions that Hussein's regime may have been allied with Al Qaeda.

"The vice president trying to justify some connection is ludicrous," he said.

Nonetheless, Cheney, in the "Meet the Press" interview Sunday, insisted that the United States is learning more about the links between Al Qaeda and Hussein.

intelligence specialists told the Globe last August that they have never confirmed that the training took place, or identified where it could have taken place. "The general public just doesn't have any independent way of weighing what is said," Cannistraro, the former CIA counterterrorism specialist, said. "If you repeat it enough times . . . then people become convinced it's the truth."

[WildEyedLiberal]

19. I know that was his intent, but it was just done tastelessly

It was just done in a poor and tasteless manner. Whether or not Flight 93 was shot down, I see no need to imply that passengers would only want to stop a hijacked plane from crashing into Washington D.C. because of their brainwashed love for Bush. The way his cartoon is written, that is the impression it leaves. JMHO.

[TankLV]

21. You've missed the whole point, then.

It was a masterful cartoon, very well done.

Go back and try again.

It ain't the PASSENGERS who were "trying to save the asshole in OUR White House" - it was a CRITIQUE of some asshole REPUKE who tried to FORCE that idea that was BEING CORRECTED that was the point of the cartoon!

You get an "F" for comprehension.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

25. And this cartoon gets an "F" too.

Regardless of the interpretation.

[Javaman]

28. Wow, you so don't get it. n/t

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

36. I get it.

And I also know the mother of the co-pilot of flight 93.

You so don't get it.

[WildEyedLiberal]

35. Sorry, just because I can see it a different way

Whatever. :eyes:

[Marie26]

26. So why does he include misinformation?

I get that Rall is saying that the established Flight 93 story is "fake", but when the director says cut, he then he goes to what he thinks is the "real" version - Flight 93 passengers placidly waiting as a US missile hits the plane. Whatever- but then he uses the 9/11 Commission as confirmation of this version. "The 9/11 Commission says there's no proof of a passenger revolt & that they never entered the cockpit." This is presented as the real "truth". But it's false. The 9/11 Commission reported that the passengers HAD in fact revolted. You may believe this or not. But to pretend that 9/11 Commission says something that it does not is false & misleading.

From the official 9/11 Commission website:

"The Battle for United 93"

During at least five of the passengers' phone calls, information was shared about the attacks that had occurred earlier that morning at the World Trade Center. Five calls described the intent of passengers and surviving crew members to revolt against the hijackers. According to one call, they voted on whether to rush the terrorists in an attempt to retake the plane. They decided, and acted.84

At 9:57, the passenger assault began. Several passengers had terminated phone calls with loved ones in order to join the revolt. One of the callers ended her message as follows: "Everyone's running up to first class. I've got to go. Bye."85

The cockpit voice recorder captured the sounds of the passenger assault muffled by the intervening cockpit door. Some family members who listened to the recording report that they can hear the voice of a loved one among the din. We cannot identify whose voices can be heard. But the assault was sustained.86

In response, Jarrah immediately began to roll the airplane to the left and right, attempting to knock the passengers off balance. At 9:58:57, Jarrah told another hijacker in the cockpit to block the door. Jarrah continued to roll the airplane sharply left and right, but the assault continued. At 9:59:52, Jarrah changed tactics and pitched the nose of the airplane up and down to disrupt the assault. The recorder captured the sounds of loud thumps, crashes, shouts, and breaking glasses and plates. At 10:00:03, Jarrah stabilized the airplane.87

Five seconds later, Jarrah asked, "Is that it? Shall we finish it off?" A hijacker responded, "No. Not yet. When they all come, we finish it off." The sounds of fighting continued outside the cockpit. Again, Jarrah pitched the nose of the aircraft up and down. At 10:00:26, a passenger in the background said, "In the cockpit. If we don't we'll die!" Sixteen seconds later, a passenger yelled, "Roll it!" Jarrah stopped the violent maneuvers at about 10:01:00 and said, "Allah is the greatest! Allah is the greatest!" He then asked another hijacker in the cock-pit, "Is that it? I mean, shall we put it down?" to which the other replied, "Yes, put it in it, and pull it down."88

The passengers continued their assault and at 10:02:23, a hijacker said, "Pull it down! Pull it down!" The hijackers remained at the controls but must have judged that the passengers were only seconds from overcoming them. The airplane headed down; the control wheel was turned hard to the right. The airplane rolled onto its back, and one of the hijackers began shouting "Allah is the greatest. Allah is the greatest." With the sounds of the passenger counterattack continuing, the aircraft plowed into an empty field in Shanksville, Pennsylvania, at 580 miles per hour, about 20 minutes' flying time from Washington, D.C.89

[ISUGRADIA]

20. Moronic from frame 1

gee, maybe the passengers did not find out the plane had been highjacked from a phone call...maybe it was from when the highjackers took over the fucking plane violently and then started changing course. If there were calls to passengers and they found out that planes were crashing into the WTC they might put 2 and 2 together and attempt to take over the plane rather than die. Christ, passengers did not have to think it was the White House to take action.

[Marie26]

22. Rall is a jerk

I think this makes it official.

[Bucky]

40. Sadly true. But a ballsy jerk.

I think he goes off the left end of the screen sometimes. Ok, frequently. But at least he isn't owned and he keeps real debates alive. There's little more than a smoking gun case to suggest f-16s shot down the second flight heading to DC, but I do think it's useful that someone is opening a platform to question the questionable official story.

[lynne]

23. Personally, I prefer that my political opinions and statements -

- not be served up at the expense of brutally murdered innocents. Any political expression attempted by this "cartoon" is lost in its insensitivity. Even the artwork sucks.

[Bushknew]

30. Do feel the same way about South Park? NT

[lynne]

33. Honestly I have not watched one episode. It doesn't appeal to me at all.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

24. some won't even notice

They won't notice that this cartoon depicts the set of a ginned up inaccurate movie with actors playing the victims of flight 93. After they fail to notice this they will claim Ted Rall is exploiting the victims of 9/11.

Welcome to the Ironic States of America.

[Bridget Burke]

27. I didn't even see the movie, but I recognize Counter-Propaganda.

People say the cartoon's "tasteless" since so many people died.

If Bush & Co had done their job, 9/11 would never have happened. But would it be "tasteful" to bring that up?

[onenote]

31. Rall's lying undercuts what might've been a good cartoon

The statement that the 9/11 Commission says there's no proof of a passenger revolt is simply false. The 9/11 Commission described in detail their findings regarding the attempt by the passengers to retake control of the airplane. While they may never have successfully entered the cockpit, to suggest that the 9/11 report found that they didn't do anything is ridiculous. And if Rall is going to cite the 9/11 report, then he presumably accepts their findings, based on the voice recordings, of the effort of the hijackers to crash the plane (so much for the missile theory). http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch1.htm


onenote

[DemoTex]

34. As an ALPA-trained accident investigator, I now tend to disagree.

The whole story of the passengers making cell phone calls (not usually possible at FL 350), stinks. If they made calls, they were probably the on-board "Flight-Phone" calls. But that whole dialog sounds "scripted" to me.

I initially posted on DU (around 9/12/2001) that in my opinion, the breakup of UAL 93 over western Pennsylvania was due to high speed (Mach 1+) stress encountered during a dive with cruise power (or higher) set on th engines.

I now believe that UAL 93 was indeed intercepted, identified, and destroyed by USAF aircraft. The legend of the passenger intervention is a damnable lie. IMHO.

Mac

[onenote]

37. there is more than one view on this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=125&topic_id=2402#2414

[DemoTex]

39. The problem at FL 350 (35,000 feet) is cell-site ambiguity.

There are, at times and places, too many sites available for a cell phone's "brain" to process. Good segment on NBC Nightly News tonight on the dangers of electronic equipment (cell phones, lap-tops, C-D players, etc) on in-flight navigation systems (especially GPS). This new awareness will be worth a few thousand dollars to me, given the potential for articles in the two magazines to which I submit (one US and one UK). Thank you, Jeebus!

[Blue_Tires]

43. Rall is still the king

bloody brilliant