WAR PRESIDENTS/RULERS/DICTATORS/ etc never rule for long

[opihimoimoi]

it seems. Sometimes for a short while like in Hitler. But longer as in the Khans case. Eventually they fail. Peace is where its at. REAL PEACE brings about a richness seldom seen in our long Human History.

W is not looking for Peace, neither is his GOP Party....instead, they show drastic signs of Narcissist behavior...angry, vengeful, narrow/closed mindsets, autocratic, etc, etc.

They will do in their power to WIN their way/agenda....lie cheat steal included.

Instead of looking to the Past to learn of what to avoid...they reject historys lessons and carry on with the task at hand. Bush don't even read for gosh sakes.

[C_U_L8R]

1. There's never a happy ending

for tyrants..

and the Bush regime is most
certainly in it's final throes.

[opihimoimoi]

13. Sometimes there are Happy Endings for them as they pass on. But,

History will eventually tell the Tale of their Legacy....such as Chin, First Ruler of all China. He was a Bad Dude .... left his Peeps in a lurch he did. Made his guys build a clay army, a massive tomb, and the Great Wall....ruined his peeps into misery which took many years to recover. China has lacked good Leadership for 3000 years...we are lacking GL or else we would be seeing a richness we can only dream about.

Good Leaders come from a School/Institute/etc

Peace is:

An ART

A Social Behavior

A Challenge

An Elusive Puzzle

A Requsite for Sustainability/

[dchill]

2. That's why Bush wants to be...

The Peace President! He's a uniter, not a divider. Soon everyone will be peacefully united against him. EOL*


*End Of Lunacy.

[opihimoimoi]

26. Bush has declared himself to be a WAR PRESIDENT

I can only wish the End of Lunacy is close

[dchill]

30. Peace President refers to his...

"Peace Campaign" in the run-up to the 2004 sElection. I Googled "Peace President" and got this nice Molly Ivins article from July of 2004:

http://www.alternet.org/columnists/story/19310/

He wants to have his fake and eat it, too.

[opihimoimoi]

33. that was a very good article. I jus love that woman...she jus tells it as

it is.

[eleny]

3. The Narcissist

[winter999]

4. Hate to say that it's not always true.

If you just look at the last century, there is Stalin (ok, USSR fell, but it took 4 generations), Ho Chi Min, Kim Il Sun (N. Korea is on it's second blood-related dictator), Castro's Cuba, Mao's China... These people can tell you that if you completely repress your population, then you also have peace. As for War Presidents, FDR was the WWII Pres and had 4 terms. Not even W can do that today - just remember in 3 years, W can't run for Pres ever again.

[reichstag911]

5. If martial law is declared...

...after another terra attack, though, he won't have to run; they'll just suspend elections and the transfer of power.

[opihimoimoi]

17. A possibility for sure...I hope not...for my and other kids sake

[opihimoimoi]

6. Long Term Peace is measured in thousands of years

We Humans don't even look for the many ways to the Peace Path...Not enough Peace Pipes Perhaps...?

[Burning Water]

8. Name any country that

has been at peace for even ONE thousand years.

Long-term peace, as you are describing it has proven to be impossible, so far, And in my estimation always will be. No matter how many peace pipes you smoke.

[opihimoimoi]

9. Its never impossible...why should it be? btw, i do believe those

Egyptian people lasted long periods of relative peace..altho the richness of the land remained with the hierchy. Their wealth was mostly spent on tomb building, temples, and seats of Power however.

Peace cannot be achieved under our existing mind sets...Humanity should be looking to follow Nature and be a Positive Force on this Planet...not a negative one. Mans only way to a better Future is to become sustainable and symbiotic...The hurdle?, mindset and ignorance....easily overcome if we really try...which we have not.

[northzax]

12. um, there wasn't anyone to fight with the egyptians

the place was a little isolated, what with being surrounded by desert and sea. not a good example. a better example would be a state, or people, who have developmental peers they are in constant contact with who don't fight.

Heck, the Aboriginals in Australia were basically at peace for 5,000 years, course, that was because there wasn't anyone to fight, and the population remained really low.

[opihimoimoi]

16. The Natives of Austrailia had only to survive in a somewhat hostile

environment...no one to fight with unless it was another tribe for some transgression. One of a few peeps who lacked major crops allowing pop expansion. Low Tech/Low food = low pop. Stone Age, did not learn to work with High Temps to produce clay pottery/iron/steel.

[Burning Water]

19. There was never any

thousand years of peace in Egypt. I doubt there was ever 100 consecutive years of peace. They invaded and were invaded. Revolutions, etc.

Nature isn't peaceful either. Wherever did you get that idea. Every animal must kill to live. Maybe it's a vegetarian and only kills plants, but they have to die. Other animals, including man in a primitive condition, must eat animal flesh. Humans couldn't get enough calories to survive from plants alone in a hunter/gatherer society, unless they lived on exceptionally rich lands, maybe. Then they had better be warlike enough to defend them from the Stone Age have-nots.

War is mankind's natural condition. Only a highly organized and productive civil society enables some lucky few of us to seek a higher plane.

[opihimoimoi]

23. Animals kill for food not for Lust as we Humans often do.

Everything Nature does..creates a positive. Energy from the Sun is captured in photosynthesis or chemical extraction such as those deep sea creatures feeding off bethnic vents under Oceans. Its a symbiotic world and we live in it.. What makes us different is our collective negative impact. We harvest too much food/energy/etc to be sustainabil

[Burning Water]

28. Don't you ever watch

the Discover Channel? Did you see the shows about the male lions when they take over a pride, killing all the lion cubs because the lionesses will refuse to mate while they have unweaned young?

Humans kill for the exact same reasons that animals kill, to obtain scarce resources and reproductive opportunities. Humans just happen to be the most spectacularly successful evolutionary innovation in the entire history of the world.

Why? Because, we have succeeded in conquering so many of the balances that nature imposes on other species. In other words, while we cannot halt death, we can slow it, providing longer reproductive life spans.

When other species outbreed their resources, sickness, cannibalism, and death by predator restore the balance. With man, this is no longer the case. But to get in touch with nature is to get in touch with death.

[Laelth]

29. Nicely said.

This is what Nietzsche called the "will to power." It is life force. From the point of view of a kind of "Sermon on the Mount" Christianity, it is a very ugly truth. From Nietzsche's point of view, life is "good," and if this is what it means to be alive, we must embrace it, or else eternally loathe ourselves and make the world miserable in the process.

-Laelth

[Burning Water]

34. I'm not a big Netzche fan.

Animals have no morality. What makes us better than animals is that we do have a moral sense. Often violated, of course. But it's something animals don't have. It enables us to strive to improve our lives, and the lives of those around us. if we choose to do so.

[opihimoimoi]

32. Animals kill small scale, Humans can do in Millions on a whim

[Burning Water]

35. As I said, the

most successful evolutionary adaptation ever.

[opihimoimoi]

36. Successful in terms of domination over the Planet but despite

the Tech/Mech/Sci advances...Humanity is heading for oblivion via Planetary mismangement...we need to evolve higher in the Social Sciences....Our Social Goals are too small at this point...almost outdated...

[Burning Water]

38. You might be correct; however,

we can't even meet the lower goals we have set for ourselves, yet.

And probably never will, as long as we allow people any choice in the matter. Because people that are free to choose will always look out for themselves first, and their families, and only when they have a surplus do they get really concerned with other people.

But in a state of nature, there are few surpluses.

[opihimoimoi]

40. Nature stores energy for the Planet in the form of wood, coal, oil, gas,

guano from sea gulls, bats, peat, tar, ...

A large chunk goes toward recreation/waste. Ya would think we could maximize efficiency without losing fun/comfort/health.

The Leadership needed is missing....prolly will never reach the point of effectiveness....by then too little too late...Humanity is close to the edge of a mega crash.

[Burning Water]

46. I'm not sure where you're going with this.

Do you think we would be better off burning wood, peat, or guano for fuel rather than petroleum or even the use of nuclear reactors? Do you want to breathe that air? I can remember as far back as the early '60s before all the environmental laws went in. The air was pretty foul, but not as foul as it would be if those were our primary energy supplies.

Third world countries use a lot of that for fuel. Not industrially, of course, but domestically. They have far worse pollution problems than LA.

And do you want your fellow Americans to live in a subsistence economy? I sure to Hell don't.

But we didn't start talking about energy, I think it was how mankind didn't think enough peaceful thoughts.

[opihimoimoi]

47. The use of fuel is being mismanaged which leads to stress leading

to pressures = conflict. Humans should take inventory of what we have abd how to use without the damage..we should be more efficient and clean...but we are not...prolly spoiled/addicted to cheap fuel.

As the fuel runs out, IF we are not prepared, we can expect a crash of sorts, including war for the remaining sources of energy. Many peeps will die / suffer needlessly. It can and should be avoided if we look to the long term.

[Burning Water]

49. So, what caused

stress and war before America became addicted to cheap fuel?

What preparations should we make? IMO, we must discover or create new resources constantly. AS long as the amount is not increased, it will decrease as people use the resources, no matter how frugally they do so. Sooner or later the resources will be gone unless there are new ones.

Renewable energy such as wind farms and solar are currently uneconomic. Perhaps that can be improved, but it seems doubtful that they will ever supply more than a small amount of our needs. I'm in favor of nuclear reactors and research into fusion reactors myself.

What's your plan? Conservation is good, but how are people in developing countries going to increase their standard of living, and how are Americans going to maintain their's?? 'Cause o have to admit 1)my standard of living is low enough, I don't want to decrease it, 2) I think the overwhelming majority of people feel the same way, and 3) A sizable portion, a majority, even, of people will vote that way. Although some of us are civilized enough to put the good of the planet above our own personal good, I don't really think there are enough people like that to carry the day.

[opihimoimoi]

50. We first set the GOAL then we solve for it////no one has all the answers

but if we never bother to look....the solutions take longer if at all to come by.

We can do it if we want to...

Such is Peace. it ain't for free either.

[Burning Water]

51. Mankind has had the

goal of peace for thousands of years.

Explain to me how we can do it better than the great minds of the past.

Explain to me one other thing, too. Say we get rid of our GWB (please,please, please). What about the GWB's of other countries? Is America the only culture that breeds warmongers? Is America the only danger to the world? What do we do about them?

[Sparkman]

10. WINNING the peace (FDR/CASTRO) gains the regime years of rule.

And winning means winning the hearts of the nation, which takes more than blind allegance to the monied interests that profitted from the struggle. Stalin was no liberal benefactor of the Soviets.

[opihimoimoi]

14. Unless coupled with Long Term Peaceful Efforts, winning is only Temporary

until the next Bad Ruler comes along to spend it all.

[Sparkman]

18. I just watched a fiction, historically accurate Hungary, "Sunshine" about

19th and 20th century political cycles. Monarchy-Fascism-Communism, nice juxtapositon of social struggles with a story line based on a liberal jewish family.

[opihimoimoi]

22. You would think of the many examples of poor leadership..we would learn

how to avoid. What good systems to implement/replace goes unchallenged.

[Burning Water]

7. Well, ole Genghis

ruled as long as he lived. So did Hitler for that matter, and Attila the Hun. Castro looks like he's going to.

But Bush will leave in 2009, alive and well. What a world.

[opihimoimoi]

11. China has messed up ever since her first Ruler, Chin, united the Nation

into what is roughly China today.

The vast wealth went to him to do as he pleased. He misused that power for selfish reasons, tomb building and the Great Wall. Bancrupted the Nation allowing the Mongel Hordes from the North to invade. The Khans came later and also mis managed the Nation until Chinese Forces regained. Those Ming Guys I believe.

The point is Rulers will fall into Categories: Benevolent/Altruistic; Selfish Greedy; Militaristic/Agressive; or Passive.

[Burning Water]

15. True, and

even the benevolent ones don't last.

[Sparkman]

20. * may leave alive,but he's not well (psychotic delusional narcissist) imo.

[opihimoimoi]

25. Most Mad Leaders suffer(ed) from some malady to the brain/body

[Sparkman]

27. Mayhaps it's their diet/exercise regimine & frequent X-Ray exposure?

Or maybe it's the sulfa-drugs from the 60's & 70's clinics.
Not to discount the possibility of tobacco additives?

[opihimoimoi]

31. The Pubs have found a way to make Ignorance contagious

[Sparkman]

37. Take a job in our world, for more money, and check your mind at the door.

[opihimoimoi]

43. Yup, Ya got it, we both see the picture.

[July]

21. Francisco Franco. Nearly 40 years. nt

[opihimoimoi]

24. It it was 400 years....think of how rich Spain would be.

Assuming a benevolent Leadership prevailed.

[newspeak]

42. and how many of these despotic leaders

destroyed the country before they fell? I don't want to see my country fall by greedy, unconscionable entities. These same entities will just move to another country after destroying ours, they have no true citizen investment in it. I have always believed that the human race's technological evolution has progressed more than it's social evolution. We are more than the animals with the fight or flight sense--we have the capability of reasoning and we are supposed to have some form of conscience (at least that's what I thought).

[opihimoimoi]

44. Society has produced a whole segment who evolved into the predator

class..opportunistic, dominating, greedy, etc....then they got a hold of the Law Making Bodies and made the Laws to fit their agenda/needs. Took years but here it is...

This is the Class of the GOP...a few exceptions of course.

No fish cleaners in this Class, nor roofers, nor masons, nor landscapers....etc

[henslee]

39. Yeah but 8 years is long.

[opihimoimoi]

41. Yes, Long enough to do major Projects of Goodness ..which are missing

or long enough to do major DAMAGE/SETBACKS..which is what Bush is doing.

Peeps concerned for the Future can see the Long View

Peeps concerned for themselves are myopic...unable to vision beyond their noses...

Busah cannot see for shit

and 8 years, is not too long compared to other Empires...

[henslee]

45. But in these times of advanced technology and advanced communications

things happen quicker, more sweepingly and more effectively. Back then, it could take a month to cross a valley. Or the implementation of decisions would have to go through the proverbial hopper before they took effect. Not the case now. Stuff is global and instantaneous.

[opihimoimoi]

48. The Social Advancement is glareingly missing.

Even the Goals are not in step with Peace/sustainability.

Just think if we had no wars, no Defense Budget, how richer we/Humanity would be. Impossible? Only in our minds.