Can we leave God out of politics, PLEASE!!!!

[killerbush]

During the last few weeks, I have seen many references to God in political speeches, and it's making me sick. George Bush, Katherine Harris, Tom Delay, Russ Feingold, Joe Lieberman and others are invoking God like they had their own private little church.
I know religion is a big part of life, and I am not telling anyone not to have God in his/her life, all I'm saying is that God should be left out of politics.
During the 2004 campaign, John Edwards invoked God several times during speeches, and George Bush had someone lead the audience in prayer before he spoke. Each year, we hear from Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and others on the right, while Jesse Jackson, and the Rev. Al Sharpton are on the left
Just because a candidate gets all religious, doesn't mean that he/she is going to be elected. To me, it's pandering to go after the religious vote just because the candidate wants to get in the good graces of God!!
I may be in the minority, but someones religious preferences are just not that important to me. Issues matter to me more than religion. Now, this is not a post to bash anyones religion, I don't do that, but we have made God, (Or any other religious figure), political. I know this has been done for years on end, and it's probably not going to change, but God should not be in politics, and should not be politicized by mere mortals.

[DrGonzoLives]

1. I agree

The Republicans, however, with the help of the False Prophet Pat Robertson, wree the first to jump on this bandwagon in the early 1980's, since it gave them access to some very committed grassroots activists with deep wallets.

More proof that all evil flows from Reagan in some way.

[SteppingRazor]

3. I disagree somewhat...

certainly, the religious platitudes have become more overt since Reagan, but American politicians have always brought up God in speeches, going all the way back to Washington.

[PublicWrath]

10. I, too, am sick of "born again" politics... n/t

[SteppingRazor]

2. Yes, you are in the minority...

85 percent of the country identifies as "Christian." Almost half believe the Bible, word for word, as historical fact. 25 percent of those who voted in the 2004 election cited morals and religious values as their PRIMARY decision maker -- more important than economics, education, terrorism, healthcare, or anything else.

I'm not a religious man. But in politics, you avoid religion at your own peril.

[radio4progressives]

14. How do you Know that 85% of the country identifies with Christian?

I have tried and tried again to get to the SOURCE of that statistic that is constantly echoed in the right wing noise machine - and i don't see the valid basis for that quote.

If there is no valid SOURCE for that quote, it shouldn't be repeated here. If there is a valid source for that quote, please provide that here.

[SteppingRazor]

18. Why is it you think that's a right-wing, bullshit statistic?

It's been used by decidedly lefty Bill Press:

http://www.billpress.com/columns.html

Also in a great article in Harpers:

http://www.harpers.org/ExcerptTheChristianParadox.html

In any case, the statistic itself comes from the 2004-2005 Statistical Abstract of the United States, taken from the US Census -- about as unimpeachable a statistical source as you are likely to find. The numbers used are, admittedly, from the 1990 census, but I doubt the percentage has changed much in 16 years. Here's a link:

http://www.census.gov/prod/www/religion.htm

Now, I've got a question for you: Why is it that you can't believe this statistic? What is it about this stat that's so hard to believe?

[ieoeja]

20. That link points to 2001 data!

The 86% figure was for the 1990 telephone poll also shown on that poll. The figure for the 2001 telephone poll is down to 77%. Almost the entire drop is evidenced by the switch to Atheist or Secular.

In 1990 Atheist and Secular were NOT APPLICABLE. Today, the No Religion umbrella ranks second after Christianity. And yet, just 16 years ago Atheist wasn't even a permissible response to the survey.

Also, the survey is not conducted by the US Census Bureau. They are not forbidden by law to query about religion.

[SteppingRazor]

21. Well, atheist and no religion are two separate categories...

But you're absolutely right about the most recent data showing 77%. But my response would be, so what? 77 percent is still more than 3 out of 4 people in America. If you don't speak to them as a politician, you lose. Period.

[radio4progressives]

24. People may say that they are "Christian", but not really be at closer look

People may claim to be Christian, based on social pressure to claim that they are, or that they "believe" in a God, and probably Jesus too.

But that doesn't mean they are "religious". They're brand of 'Christianity' in practice, may as well be that as a secularist for some or many. the only real number that can be better quantified, are the enumerations of church members who attend church regularly.

Those are the stats that i would be interested in. not polls that ask do you attend church regularly, but actual data of those that do attend church regularly.

and i would like to see a delineation of those that are Legal Citizens who are eligible to vote, who attend church regularly.

And i'd like to see that data in actual numbers not percentages.

[SteppingRazor]

27. So lemme get this straight...

You refuse to believe in any number of Christians until:

1) Every sngle one of them is counted
2) Those who are legal citizens and elegible to vote are accounted for.

So, are you of the opinion then, that every single poll is untrustworthy? That statistics are meaningless if taken from a representational sample? Even though statistical mathematics proves otherwise?

Or do you just refuse to believe polls when they don't confirm your own world view?

[radio4progressives]

30. You are misquoting me..

I would like to see an enumeration of regular church goers.. i hardly suggest that every single christian is counted..

(By definition of what being a Christian is, would make that completely impossible people lose or possess faith to varying degress every hour, every day)

But why not have an enumeration of regular church going members as a opposed to "polls" that simply do a sampling?

I live in a very significant heavily populated region, The San Francisco Bay Area - specifically i live an hour north of the city..

We have churches of every denomination everywhere, but I don't see cars parked for miles and miles around these churches on Sundays. I see more people are on the freeway and highways on Sundays as they are on a work day. That tells me, that the majority of the population are not in church.

Yet, 85% indicates a huge majority of the population.

Why are they shopping or driving to the malls instead of being in church?

On edit: If you tell me that the weather forcasts clear skies and sunshine during a raging thunder storm, i'm going to conclude you're talking about a different reality for a different universe, no matter what the weather map indicates.

[SteppingRazor]

32. Right on. I agree that 85 percent seems overly large...

but I don't think that the poll states that 85 percent of the population are Christians who attend church regularly. Just that they're Christians. In other words, a lot of those people you see driving around on Sunday, if you stopped and asked them, would identify themselves as Christians.

[radio4progressives]

34. Exactly..

People will say, Yes I believe in god and jesus and heaven and hell...

but, here's a question that i don't know if it's been asked in the polls,

how much does your faith in god guide you in your day to day decisions and your social values generally speaking?

Do you believe the End is Near, and so there fore, anything goes? The world is coming to an end so the united states should wage war in the Middle East and so on and so on..

[monarch]

35. Catholics report christian at Baptism and they never let go

They keep them on their records forever...and, for all you "lapsed Catholics" and I am one...I did not mean that they maintained an emotional grip.

[radio4progressives]

23. Responding to your questions...

I'll take the last first and work upward..

Why is it that you can't believe this statistic? What is it about this stat that's so hard to believe?

The reason why I find the stats incredulous is because most of the population are not in churches worshiping on Sunday Mornings in my neck of the world.

Instead, most of the population are busy watching sports on tv or working on hobbies in their garages or gardens .. one can hear and see the band saws cutting through pieces of wood, one can see the prunings and hear the mowings or the chain saws whining on the properties..

or one can meet most of the population in the shopping malls on Sundays, grocery stores, restaurants and tourists spots.. but before reaching any of these destinations... the freeways and the hiways are just as clogged as they are on a work day during commute hours.

Why aren't they all in church? Why aren't the roads and shopping malls and big box stores nearly empty, except for the 15% of the population who are not counted as religious?

Do my eyes decieve me? I say NO! My eyes do NOT decieve me. It's about 85% of the population in my region who are not in church worshipping God on Sunday mornings/early noon!

Why is it you think that's a right-wing, bullshit statistic?

I've worked for the Census Bureau in 1990.. I have personal experience in the data collecting practice.. The method is ok, but the real life practice of collecting data and INPUTING data is another matter entirely.

And more importantly, the Census bureau is governed by the political party in power. I've had first hand experience in observing how data was inputted inaccurately on massive scale from two different regional offices. Some data can be trusted, other things have to be taken with a grain of salt, and matters on how much value and meaning one *intends* to place on the answers to questions that may not necessarily be comprhensive enough to validate certain assertions.

[SteppingRazor]

28. Very good points. I would argue, though, that Cotati, CA...

is not representative of the country at large. What people do there isn't necessarily what people do throughout the Midwest, the South, and what have you.

Like I said in an earlier post, I'm not a religious person myself. But I do think it would be foolish for a politican to ignore religious people, as there are massive amounts of them in this country. You can argue whether the percentage is 85 percent, or 77 percent or even way, way lower. But even if the percentage of Church-going Christians is only 50 percent or 45 percent or whatever, it still doesn't make sense for a politician to ignore what essentially comprises one of the largest voting blocs in the country, no? And even if it's 50 percent, that's still exactly what Christians are.

[radio4progressives]

33. Ok.. I understand your point better, here's what i actually think

I think that's just fine for politicians NOT to ignore faith based organizations concerns and issues - but equally as important, politicians have a duty to remind faith based organizations that not all Americans share their religious views, and have a right not to have their rights trampled on - in other words, we have a Constitutionally protected right to worship whatever god an individual citizen wishes to worship, and we also have a constitutional right not to worship or be legally subjected to the rules of the church. We have a Separation of Church and State to protect both faith based citizens, and those who are not faith based.

Politicians need to address both groups on an equal basis.

[BootinUp]

4. I feel the same, unfortunately

until our party gets the anti-religion meme reversed back a little I don't know how candidates shield themselves from attack without being willing to let folks see something about their religious beliefs.

[papau]

5. Having an opinion and sticking to it, -Character/honesty/moral values are

all mixed together in the voters mind with ethics,faith, and belief.

Most people recognize atheism as a faith and belief (if not a religion), so the atheist candidate can start even with the theist, or be well ahead, in the political battle if he comes across as true to his beliefs.

But you must discuss your faith and beliefs.

[drm604]

9. I disagree.

First off, atheism is no more a faith than baldness is a hair color.

But regardless, IMHO an admitted atheist would be very unlikely to get elected for national office in this country. I use the word "unlikely" rather than saying it's impossible simply because there may be a few scattered districts with unusual demographics that could send an atheist to the House of Representatives. I'm not even sure about that, but if they exist they're an anomaly rather than the rule.

[papau]

12. In Mass it would not be hard to put together 700000 folks where

350001 vote in the atheist.

But in general I agree it would be unlikely.

Indeed your first comment on atheism and faith may well be the absolute truth, but IMO too many folks see denial of God with no proof for that denial (I know the atheist says they need not prove a negative - but folks see an assertion with out proof which means faith) and no way to get around creation, followed by the assertion that denial of God is logical and non-denial of God is illogical, and that their assertion without proof does not involve faith, as making up a platform that would be hard to sell even in Mass. Not that this good - it just is.

In any case we agree on your main point - that all the things needed in order to elect an atheist to national office are found in few districts - and it would be difficult.

But I still say if a person can sell their "character" while not sounding like they are putting down others who have made different choices, that person could win national office.

[Leeny]

22. Faithful Atheist

Why do you say that Atheism isn't a faith? Can't I have faith in my belief that there is no God? I believe no one knows one way or the other, whether there is or there isn't, so it's all a matter of faith and belief either way.

Of course I'm an agnostic, I don't think you can know; and I don't believe either way. I'm a totally confused free thinker.

Personally, it makes my skin crawl when I hear a candidate talking about God and morals and especially Christianity, as though they have cornered the market on morality and what it is to be a decent human being in this world. I can't stand pandering to the religious vote. But the reality is that you take a chance on losing votes if you leave God out of the discussion.

[martymar64]

15. Religion is not needed for someone to be moral

Look at the Greek Philosophers (Aristotle, Plato, Socrates. They discussed issues of morality, justice, ethics, etc, roughly 500 before Jesus ever came on the scene and never brought religion into their theses.
Atheism by definition is an absence of religion, not just another religion. This atheist see worship as superfluous and superstition. We can be moral people without having some supernatural bugaboo as a crutch.
In this country, atheists are treated worse than any religion, even Muslims. Some people just can't accept that we don't need any gods to live a good life.

[papau]

16. Good Grief - I totally agree - but "character" gets you elected - and

the manner that the atheist explains themselves, including their atheism, will in effect establish their "character".

I take it as a given that atheists are presumed moral, as are all others. It is in the "getting to know you" conversation that tact becomes Character.

And while your statement of atheist beliefs is fine -"atheists see worship as superfluous and superstition" - referring to oneself as "the moral people who do not have some supernatural bugaboo" is not going to get one elected dog catcher.

[bee]

17. then 'most people' are mistaken. n/t

[Klukie]

6. It will never happen.

It is like asking a prostitute to never discuss sex. The fact of the matter is that many many Americans believe in a higher power and I personally have no problem with anyone mentioning God as long as it is not with the intent to harm, or suppress any particular person or group. God can be a good thing, it is wicked men who tend to exploit him. As someone who does believe, I can tell the difference pretty quickly.

[More Than A Feeling]

7. Politics deals with morality

A people's government reflects their morals (now, whether or not we, the people have as much influence as we should is a different question, but in theory...). Religion is one possible source of morality, and quite a popular one. Asking religion to stay out of politics is akin to saying to people for whom religion is the source of their morality, "Your participation is not welcome. You are less of a citizen."

That's really not a message I am comfortable sending, as an American. Considering that established churches in the states did not disappear until well into the 1800's, just mentioning God in a speech, or campaigning from a religious perspective could actually be considered progress (Naturally, Bush has done far more than that, and he is wrong to do so, but you addressed merely mentioning God, not the other stuff).

[Minnesota Libra]

8. I disagree because we have to debate the other side on..............

....some of their issues and show how irresponsible and sometimes down right stupid those ideas and issues are.

I'm not overly religious I just believe in using the other person's rules against them.

[maxsolomon]

11. after there is conclusive proof this "God" exists

i think you can talk all you want about it.

[Rocknrule]

13. God would not want to be associated with any political group

n/t

[Ilsa]

19. Normally I would have been sickened by all of Tom DeLay's

references to God in his speech the other day, but given its other content, I'll concede that I didn't care any more!

Yeah, ITA.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

25. Okay, I looked it up and Jesus agrees with you

Matthew 22:21 Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

[radio4progressives]

26. I am in agreement with you killerbrush, and it sickens me to see the

pandering. I truly wish people who are "religious" would push back on the disenigration of church and state - keep God out of politics..

i have recently heard or read there is some push back from the Left Christian sector - let's acknowledge and applaud their efforts and give support to them for it.

[Zhade]

29. I don't have a problem with anyone being religious.

Even though I'm an atheist, I don't really care - AS LONG AS THEIR BELIEFS ARE IN NO WAY FORCED ON ME.

A politician speaking about his belief system as it applies to him, whatever. Kinda pisses me off when one says "god watches over us" or something that indicates ALL Americans believe in gods, but I just brush it off as self-important arrogance.

What infuriates me is any violation, no matter how 'insignificant' (there is no such thing) the breech, of the separation of church and state. Likewise, any attempt to control others' morality or life based on YOUR religion enrages me.

But if, say, Jimmy Carter wants to natter on about HIS god, cool with me. Just respect that I don't buy into that mythology, and we have no problem.

Reasonable, I think.

[Minnesota Libra]

31. Talk to the neocons/fundies on that one - not us net

[Neil Lisst]

36. If only that were possible, but it isn't.

The problem is that candidates who don't mouth the words take the hit on their numbers.

Look at Bush. You couldn't tie that guy down to "Jews are going to hell according to your faith, aren't they, Mr. President?"

I cringe now every time I hear Hillary say "The Lord." I have visions of Hawaii 5-0, and "book em, Danno!"