Kerry on MTP: Backs Administration Into A Corner?

[Tool Fan]

John Kerry on Meet The Press talking to Russert about his withdrawal plan.

He said (not quoted directly)....."Bush stated our military would stand down as Iraqi troops stood up. The Bush plan was to have 272,000 troops trained to begin withdrawal. The Bush regime likes to boast that they have 242,000 Iraqi troops trained, so technically we're 30,000 trained-troops away from withdrawal anyway, right?"

Now, the goal is to HOLD THEM TO IT. Sen. Kerry needs to make the Bush regime account for all these alleged trained-troops. A withdrawal should begin soon if this is true. If a withdrawal is not started soon, is it safe to assume the Bush regime was wrong about its numbers?

We all sort of "know" that there aren't that many Iraqi troops ready for action, just like we "know" Iraq is damn-near civil war. But my argument is can we use this to hold their feet to the flames? Press them to admit the stats are wrong or start withdrawing troops. Period.

Facts like that also help to legitimize Kerry's plan.


Related sources: http://festersplace.blogspot.com/2005/01/iraqization-or-need-for-troops.html

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20060405-111018-5368r.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/05/opinion/05kerry.html

http://peopledontcareaboutpolitics.blogspot.com/2006/04/is-kerry-actually-saying-something.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8987534/

[mike_c]

1. welcome to DU!

You must remember that NOTHING the administration says about Iraq is true, neither the level of Iraqi forces they claim or their intentions. They will move that goalpost forever if necessary to confuse and distract folks from their real agenda, which is permanent occupation, either military or "diplomatic" through the imposition of a pupper government that takes it's orders directly from the U.S. embassador. These are international robber barons and pirates-- don't make the mistake of believing that they have any moral sense whatsoever. Doing so only gives them cover to continue operating. They'll change the objectives if necessary to keep the opposition in a permanent state of "holding their feet to the fire" and waiting until the next development.

[Roland99]

2. Welcome to DU, Tool Fan!

:hi:


I still wish Kerry had actually given details on his plan instead of going thru talking point highlights of it.

[ginnyinWI]

3. I thought he did well.

If you try to get too wonky on these shows it just gets confusing for the average viewer. What he did say hit the high points and they were clear and concise.

We saw a man who really knows what's going on, someone people could have had for a president. I hope a lot of * voters saw this and regretted their votes. Russert tried to make him look inconsistent with past statements, as if you shouldn't change your policies when the facts on the ground change. Not true--only ideologues not based in reality can keep on believing the same thing, no matter what happens!

:patriot:

[Tool Fan]

4. Thank you to both of you...

I think Kerry did fairly well on MTP today, too. He talked a lot about the military and the sacrifice of soldiers' lives. GOOD strategy. He's a respectable authority on the realities of combat, and talking about dead soldiers is something that stabs us all in the chest, regardless of political affiliation. I also wish he would have talked more details, too, though.

The bottom line, though, is that their ideology consists of "the end justifies the means" as a way of manipulating events into their favour. As long as that is allowed to happen there isn't much they can't get away with. The "country-at-war"/fear game alters perspective on everything.

[IndianaGreen]

5. He is now on Wolfie's show

Blitzer looks haggard lately, he just had Seymour Hersh on about the nuke attack on Iran.

Kerry is doing great!

[Tool Fan]

6. Grrr...don't have cable. n/t Keeping fingers crossed

[MH1]

7. Welcome to DU! and excellent catch.

:hi:

I just watched that interview and thought something similar, but the thought kind of went out of my head, until I saw your post here.

Yes that is a good point that should be pounded home. Why aren't we already withdrawing troops, anyway? According to Bush we are very close to when they should ALL be able to come home - "As the Iraqis stand up...." So why the f aren't we doing it?

[welshTerrier2]

8. Kerry needs a better answer on impeachment

I thought Kerry did a very good job on MTP this morning ... (as a total aside, I think he needs to start brushing aside "waste of time" questions about how he handled his previous campaign ("Senator, should you have done this? or that?") ...)

I'm stating this from memory but i believe what he said about impeachment was that "impeachment is a waste of time" ...

that may be so but it's not the best answer ...

Democrats, Kerry included, should NOT be calling for impeachment ... what they should be calling for are real hearings about the numerous allegations of improprieties (Niger, NSA spying, lying to Congress (DSM), releasing classified documents to deceive the nation into war, etc) in the bush administration ... THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT THEIR GOVERNMENT !!!

Democrats are NOT required to make the case that bush broke the law ... they should be calling for hearings where credible information exists that he MAY HAVE ...

to brush off questions about impeachment as a waste of time without calling for truthfulness and appropriate hearings is just not the best response ...

[MH1]

9. I think

he's letting the American people come to that conclusion...the facts that are the basis of impeachment are out there, and people are slowing coming around, but if Dems push too hard too fast, then people may balk.

Just my thought.

And actually I didn't get the impression that he said it was a waste of time. I'll have to look at the transcript when it comes out.

[welshTerrier2]

10. from the transcript:

source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12169680/page/4/

MR. RUSSERT: Is that impeachable?

SEN. KERRY: Well, I think this impeachment talk is a waste of time. I don’t want to go down that road. What I want to do is get to the things that really matter to Americans. You know, all this, this politics is driving people nuts.

i agree that the issue need not be politicized ... still, if we are to strive for a democracy, the American people have every right to peer very deeply into the dark corners of government - especially with this administration ... again, it's NOT about demanding impeachment; it's about getting to the truth and informing the electorate ...

frankly, now that i've seen the transcript, Kerry's statement really was very unfortunate ... the "waste of time" phrase was not the best; the "get to the things that really matter to Americans" is really awful though ... should the truth about possible Constitutional violations "really matter" to Americans? should lying about the Niger evidence to trick the country and the Congress into going to war "really matter"? should releasing classified information to discredit a CIA agent who told the truth "really matter"?

i'm highlighting this not to criticize Kerry but to hopefully make the case that he, and all "media Democrats", need a better response on impeachment ...

[MH1]

11. Okay then

I stand by my assessment though...and I think he is right. For now, at least. I know a lot of folks disagree with me, but I'd like to keep the focus on a) getting out of Iraq, and b) let people digest that Bush really did lie us into war. When there's an overwhelming recognition (and I mean more than 51%) of b) then ALL the Democrats had better be talking impeachment.

[MH1]

12. Oh and also,

can we PLEASE capitalize on the excellent point made in the OP?

[welshTerrier2]

14. absolutely

i've been strongly supportive of Kerry's new Iraq plan ... i just didn't want to start a whole new thread re: MTP just to make my point about my preferred response to the impeachment question ...

i'm also a little hesitant to mix in the reality of troop training as a condition for withdrawal ... it might be an effective way to make the case that Iraqi troops are nowhere near ready to assume responsibility for Iraq and that bush is lying but I don't want to add an additional condition for withdrawal ...

Kerry said the Iraqis had to form a legitimate government by May 15 or we should immediately withdraw ... i don't want to muddy the waters with this clear basis for withdrawal with an argument about Iraqi troop competence ... so, while the OP makes a very effective point, I'm uncomfortable extending it to the level of a "contingency for withdrawal" ...

[mhr]

13. To Republicans: Blow Job Equals Impeachment

To Democrats: Illegal War Equals Censure and Investigation

WTF OVER?

[welshTerrier2]

15. there was great advice in "All the President's Men"

Deep Throat said something like "you build these things from the outside in; start too high and everyone feels safe" ...

I think it's unwise to "start" the bar at the impeachment level ... there are very real disagreements, however improper, over whether releasing classified info and spying on Americans (during war) is illegal ... should it be clear that it's illegal? absolutely!! but there is plenty of "gray" here and if Democrats aim too high and lose they become weaker, not stronger ...

we don't need to meet the "broke the law" test by calling for impeachment ... i'm NOT ruling out impeachment even a little ... frankly, i believe bush did break the law and he should therefore be impeached and removed from office ... but it's foolish to start with the verdict ... and it will be seen as pure partisanship ...

instead, fundamental arguments like "for our democracy to function effectively, the American people have to have access to the truth" ... there are many credible allegations about WH crimes and improprieties and the American people have every right, even obligation, to demand that the Congress get to the bottom of it via hearings and investigations ...

we're all for bringing an end to this evil administration as quickly as possible; i just see calls for impeachment AT THIS TIME as both premature and risky ... start by demanding the truth ... once that's out, impeachment will likely be the only path available ...

[TayTay]

27. The problem with hearings is that Roberts will not allow them

At all, under any circumstances. Roberts knows, as well as you and I do, that any hearings would be extremely damaging and show that we had no actual call to go to war for the reasons given. We were lied to. Roberts will not call the Senate Intelligence Committee to hold open hearings. Not while he is chairman. Kerry tried to get hearings on the DSM last summer. He sent out a 'Dear Colleague' letter on this back in July and only got 9 sigs. Sigh!

This is why the censure hearing from Sen. Feingold is so important and why we want to draw this out as long as possible. Specter is actually doing, in a very limited way, what Roberts should have been doing all along, airing some of the issues. I think a lot of people on the blogs have missed this point. We want to draw these censure hearings out, we want Americans to have a chance to hear some of the case for what this Admin is doing wrong. We had a live-blogging from someone who was at the hearings over at DKos and she said that the censure hearing room was full of Dem staffers who were very supportive of what Sen. Feingold was attempting. Again, we want to draw this out. (A Censure is basically a slap on the wrist. It's the hearings that are damaging.)

The only way to get real hearings with the Dems having genuine subpoena power is to take back either the House or Senate in the fall. (Preferably both.) Then we can start to go to town on impeachment or anything else. But, until then, the censure hearings are the only ones we are getting. (And I wouldn't be surprised if Specter loses his chairmanship if the hearings do reveal anything damaging. Those Rethugs in attendance were spitting mad that hearings were being held.)

[sandnsea]

16. I agree

haha, don't fall off your computer chair. :)

I expected him to say there's too much at stake for us to be engaged in a lengthy impeachment, or something like that. It's unfortunate it would take so much time, because I think a swift impeachment is exactly what we need. Although I don't know that Hastert would be any better. That's the problem with impeachment talk, what's the difference if we just get another neocon idiot in the White House. He does need a better answer on it though.

Otherwise, yeah, he did a pretty good job. He was better on the senate floor the other day though. Now that kicked ass, which is probably why Timmy didn't show any of it.

[welshTerrier2]

17. fall off my chair?

i'm sending you a bill!! i actually fell off the bed ...

my real bottom line on all this censure/impeachment business is that whether it helps bush or hurts him, whether it helps Democrats or hurts them, whether it helps republicans or hurts them, the American people have a right to know the truth ...

Democrats should NOT allow republicans to paint calls for hearings as "partisanship" ... why is it partisan for bush to be able to get a fair hearing on his conduct in office ... the hearings could either exonerate him and put an end to all the allegations of wrongdoing or they could convict him of crimes ... that's not partisan at all ... in the end, the American people, good government and the fundamentals of an informed electorate being needed to sustain democracy demand that hearings be held to determine the truth ...

while you're in the neighborhood, here's my "Kerry shoulds" if he really wants to be a candidate again:

1. he cannot vote for anymore war funding
2. he has to move to the left - there's just no air left for him to breathe in the center given other 2008 "likely's" ...
3. he can be tough on Iran to push for diplomatic solutions - if he condones bombings, he's toast ...
4. he should dismiss questions about the tactics of his last campaign ... Russert was all ginned up on "focus groups" and on swiftboaters; there are no good answers to questions like that ... i would increasingly get away from responding directly - my answer would be "yeah, we did not run a perfect campaign; there are mistakes made in any campaign. I'd prefer to discuss the ideas I have today to make the lives of Americans better" ...

i am beyond distraught that the Party failed to back Kerry up on his Iraq plan ... this "we have lots of good ideas in our Party" is bullshit ... did Kerry issue his plan in a vacuum? did he try to line up support ahead of time? is the Party so cowardly about being painted is weak on defense that they can't see this war needs to be stopped ASAP?? ... the silence has been deafening ...

[sandnsea]

18. haha,

If I had homeowners, I'd tell ya' to send the bill on out here. :rofl:

I don't think we should mix censure/impeachment like that. He said he'd vote for censure and all the hearings because we need to know the truth. And Feingold has clearly rejected too many co-sponsors specifically so it wouldn't appear partisan, just like Boxer and the electoral vote was done that way for the same reason.

In response to your shoulds, I see him moving to Hillary's left. Feingold has taken the left spot and I think that's a great place for him, it really benefits us because he will be taken much more seriously than Kucinich. I would be delighted with a Feingold Presidency, and if he can win as a lefty, WOW! Kerry taking up that middle spot between left and the New Joe (Hillary) is exactly who he is and where he should be.

He said no to bombing Iran on MTP, thank god, that is even dumber than invading Iraq.

And I think he should have 3 unbeatable lines that he repeats everywhere he goes; one for the Swifties, one for the before/after funding, and one for the war vote comment. I don't think he can realistically run until he knocks those three things completely off the table. And, because my cousin was a POW so I know how some of them think, he has simply got to address what he said in 1971. He has to make peace with these guys. This country was ripped apart by Vietnam and nobody has stepped up to heal that wound. I really thought his campaign would do that, which would give it the momentum it needed. Some other vets I know were sorry he didn't do it too. If he isn't going to run, brushing it all off with everybody makes mistakes is good enough. But if he is, he'sg going to have to have answers to convince people he won't make the same mistakes again. I don't think he's done that, although I don't think those were the big mistakes anyway.

[Jack Rabbit]

19. Welocme to DU, Tool Fan

!!

[blondeatlast]

20. Kerry's brought the issue front and center, whether he has THE plan

or not in our opinions.

The dialog has started and won't be easily deflected now, try as the spinmeisters and their media lapdogs might to do so.

Welcome to DU, Tool Fan! :toast:

[ray of light]

21. grrrrrrrrrreat post! and welcome to du!

[Trevelyan]

22. Rep. Murtha's site is good for what is happening to our soldiers and the

way to begin to exit Iraq. I don't trust Kerry but I am glad that it looks like his Bilderberger masters are allowing him to seem to be offering a plan to get our soldiers out of that unholy mess and stop the mass murder/genocide. But never completely trust Kerry and be sure to keep up with what the honorable Congressman Murtha is doing. His site and the articles on his site are very informative. Same with Rep. Hinchey and Senators Feingold and Tom Harkin.

[proud patriot]

23. Tool Rocks

Welcome aboard :headbang:

[politicasista]

24. Nice post and welcome n/t

[ProSense]

25. Cool! Welcome Tool Fan. n/t

[BlueIris]

26. Welcome!

Come join us in the Kerry forum, if you get the chance.