It's not the lying, it's the incompetence!

[last1standing]

I was reading another thread in which a poster claimed that white men are more likely to vote for Democrats if they support impeachment because they are generally more in favor of punishment/retribution than other demographics. I think that's true but it got me to thinking about what these white men want bush* punished for. I mean it's easy to call for impeachment or censure, but you have to come up with something to support it afterwards. That was the problem with the Clinton impeachment. No one wanted to punish a guy lucky enough to get a blow job at the office and no one cared that he lied about it. When it comes down to it, we're a nation of liars who admire those who can lie and "bend the rules" better than others.

In the end, what really saved Clinton was a great economy, a successful war in Bosnia in which no US soldiers were killed, and an outside world that adored the guy. Did he lie? Yes. Did he do a tremendous job taking care of the business he was elected to do? Yes. Given those two facts, a vast majority of Americans supported him

Now take bush*. Everyone paying any attention knew he was determined to go into Iraq regarless of circumstance or fact. Most people supported him on that because they like a good war. When he insinuated that Iraq was responsible for 911 only the most gullible (FOX viewers) really believed him. Everyone knew he was lying about the Plame scandal and WMDs, but that didn't matter. As long as his spin machine could prop up the idea that he was a successful war president, the people supported him.

For bush*, the wheels began to fall off the cart when a year went by and Iraq wasn't won. His ratings started to drop and only took an uptick when Saddam was captured. Soon after, though, they started right back down as more troops died and more reports leaked out that the war wasn't going so well. It wasn't enough to give Kerry the presidency, but it was damned close (I know "irregularities helped, but it would have still been close regardless). Now, three years into Iraq, we can barely keep the "green zone" under wraps - the rest of the country is in civil war, and bush's* approval/disapproval ratings are taking the biggest hit.

Then the other day, I was talking to a someone who really is the model of the young bush* supporter. He's 27, good job as a marketing rep, comes from an upper middle class, religious, conservative family in a suburb of Minneapolis. He's always supported bush* because "he gets the job done". This time, he said he felt let down by him because "he had everything going for him and he just couldn't ink the deal". In other words he incompetently screwed up a winning position.

To make a long post just a bit shorter, I'll come to the point. My friend isn't that unusual. If you listen to repubs and conservatives around the country, they're not upset about Plame or lies about WMD, their pissed off that this president and his advisors can't control a backwater country of 24 million people with the most advanced army in the world. Clinton was able to stop a genocide in Bosnia with absolutely no loss of US life, while bush* can't even give freedom away at the cost of 2500 soldiers.

If there's one stereotypical statement I would be comfortable with making it's that American's don't like to lose. You can lie to us, you can pollute our water, you can even give our hard earned money to the richest one percent of the population, but don't you ever lose because we can't stand the shame.

So when you're out there trying to convert the masses, remember, it's not the lying, it's the incompetence, Stupid!

[MadMaddie]

1. Well stated......

I like this for a bumper sticker, "It's not the lying, it's the incompetence, Stupid"!

[xultar]

2. I would tend to agree.

[Squeech]

3. Yeah, but

the policies suck too. The successful frame for 2006 isn't "We could've done Iraq right," it's "Are you better off now than you were six years ago, with specific reference to tax cuts for the rich vs. oil at $70+ per barrel?"

[last1standing]

4. But isn't that still about incompetence?

I agree with you completely, but my point above was that Americans don't like incompetence and losing the war in Iraq is a great symbol of that. I guess the same could be said of our gas prices.

In fact, I think the whole "Are you better off now than....." line is about incompetence.

[Squeech]

17. Not really

Turning Iraq into Compton with RPGs might look like incompetence, even though it's probably exactly what the Dominionists wanted.

But the oil profiteering, the military-industrial complex profiteering, the telecom profiteering, the Wal-Mart import-intensive beggar-thy-neighbor profiteering, the elimination of personal bankruptcy, the Leave No Child Behind swindles designed to destroy public education, carte blanche for mining and timber interests to ravage and pollute public lands-- all that was deliberate.

Too bad if you used to think of yourselves as middle class. Serf's up!

[last1standing]

18. I agree, but it does "look" incompetent.

And that's why bush's* numbers are so low. Really, I think bush* has been one of the most effective presidents in history in getting what he really wants. It's just he and his advisors can't say that they really want to eliminate the middle class and pollute our environment while giving untold wealth to the most powerful one percent.

I'm just making the point that we have to understand "why" people are angry with bush* and it's not his lying, but his "incompetence".

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

5. Both

nm

[RufusEarl]

6. I agree with you statement as far as young republicans

are concerned.

[mark11727]

7. With me it's completely different...

When * first took office, my original thought was that he was either under-qualified or unqualified altogether... even before 9/11, I had increasingly bad feelings about him and Cheney (I remember how they would continually "talk down" the economy --- and I felt that if enough people took them seriously, the economy would suffer for it). Those were the days.

NOW, of course, we have 9/11 (please explain how the hell * can keep drawing attention to this as the centerpiece of his his foreign policy, when history's worst intelligence screw-up happened on his watch?), Afghanistan, Iraq, and perhaps Iran, two shady elections, torture, eavesdropping, religious extremists of every stripe each trying to out-pious the others, and all I think of is how farking EVIL * and the rest are.

So *'s gone from "unqualified ninny" to "antichrist" in five short years.

Barbzilla must be so proud. :evilgrin:

[last1standing]

10. You and me both.

But I don't think we're representative of the "average voter". I remember telling my wife that bush* would be bad but not too bad since his father was rather moderate (I know, I was just trying to cheer her up). He's so much worse than I could have possibly imagined. He even makes me pine for reagan. :scared:

[bluedeminredstate]

8. But Clinton got nailed for lying!

It seemed like everyone I talked to who felt let down said, "When he wagged his finger at America blah, blah, blah..." Even Hillary was excoriated for lying by saying she knew nothing.
And we had the repukes screaming about the RULE OF LAW until they were apoplectic. Clinton has been branded a liar by the MSM while the Chimperor wiggles out of that title b/c no one will call him by that name.
That said, the incompetence is being discussed widely and that's why I think it's stuck. Everyone is too afraid to say liar and Bush in the same sentence.
It's totally unfair, but MSNBCNNFAUX won't entertain that discussion. Period.

[last1standing]

12. The only problem people had with Clinton was that he got caught.

Even so, on the day of his impeachment he had a 70% approval rating. The voters actually liked the fact that he kept pressing on with business as though he didn't care what the Hell congress did.

As for saying bush* and liar in the same sentence, we'll never see that as long as the corporations that control the media stand behind him. It's getting too hard to contain the information of his incompetence, though.

[lumberjack_jeff]

9. What you're lying about matters.

People do care that they've been swindled. The fact that they've been swindled out of their children's lives will matter a lot.

[Minnesota Libra]

11. The only problem with your claim of pure "incompetence" is.......

....that you're apparently not taking into consideration the fact that this idiot boy seems to be following PNAC, letter by letter. There isn't much doubt that long hours of planning went into coming up with PNAC and putting it out there for the world to see.

As we all know "incompetence" indicates a lack of knowledge, lack of planning, just winging it in other words.

Yes I call #43 idiot boy BUT NOT because I think he is stupid - far from it. Rather, he's got a blue print in front of him in the form of PNAC and, regardless of how many people it hurts or kills, nothing is going to swag #43 from reaching the end goal of bringing PNAC about.

That is far from "incompetence", that is being down right STUBBORN and PSYCHOPATHIC. I think a good case could be made for how truly delusional #43, "shoot them in the face" Cheney, and Rummy all are.

Just my thoughts.

[last1standing]

13. I was trying to provide the "average voter's" view.

I agree bush* is clever and that PNAC is really running much as they desired. However, they can't come out and say that this is what they wanted so they have to try and spin it as a success. Since that isn't working, bush's* poll numbers are dropping.

It really is about his percieved incompetence.

[ieoeja]

14. So you're saying if you make a plan...

... and you follow the plan, and everything comes out bad, then you're NOT incompetent?

You're in management for a large organization, aren't you?

[last1standing]

16. LOL! That's exactly what I didn't say.

If you look at who the bush* administration REALLY supports, how can you tell me this plan didn't succeed?

Armament firm profits are at record levels.

Oil company profits are at record levels.

The two products the bushies* are most heavily involved in are oil and weapons production.

I'd say their plan went off like clockwork, wouldn't you?

Note: Oops, I thought you were responding to me. Still I like the point I made so I'll leave it. :)

[RethugAssKicker]

15. Its not the incompetence for me.... THANK GOD hes incompetent!!!

Its his mindset, the whole PNAC mindset, the ugly American mindset... The WE ARE THE GREATEST and we're going to control the world attitude! Fuck the rest of the world!

The American regressive movement is extremely dangerous and hell bent on end-day thinking!!!
Thank God he has not been successful, and that people are starting to see through it.

[Sinti]

19. When do we get to call the incompetence malfeasance? n/t

[last1standing]

20. I guess when the "average voter" understands what it means.

I'm talking about a campaign here, not reality. In the psyche of the the "average American male" is a desire to win. If they lie and cheat to do it, that's fine, but we want revenge when they lose. It's like Vietnam. We didn't pull out because of the protests, we pulled out because it was embarrassing the president and his support was dwindling.

In politics, the only thing that counts is winning. To win you have to be a winner. Incompetent people are not winners. That's the real message we need to put out.

[Sinti]

21. Good point -- it's the stupid, stupid. n/t :)

[last1standing]

22. LOL! Even so, I don't think people mind him being stupid.

I'd even say that's a plus for many of them. They feel like they can relate. But stupid people succeed all the time if you believe what the movies and TV shows we see every day tell us. As a nation we love to see stupid people win, but we hate to see incompetent people lose.

[Sinti]

23. We also love to savage our heroes, when they've fallen.

Flipping the coin will be a tough challenge, though. They own the media, and the national treasury to spend almost at will. Great angle, I must say. :)

[last1standing]

24. Once bush* is out of power the media will turn on him.

Corporations are never loyal to people. When bush* can no longer help them the media conglomerate will give the people exactly what they want - a bloodbath of negative bush* articles. That's not to say bush* won't be very comfortably set up someplace with much of his stolen gains. In fact, he's probably already in on the scheme. It's the best way to help prop up the next fascist president because the media will be able to say "Look, we said bad things about bush*, just like Clinton. We're fair! Now watch this piece on Howard Dean screaming again."

[last1standing]

25. Vanity kick.

As I'd like more people to give their opinions.

:kick: