The supersimplistic "ABB" notion works against Kucinich. Oh, the irony...

[RichM]

What is needed to get people behind Dennis is clarity and courage of conviction. The unfortunate ABB slogan encourages people to believe that it doesn't much matter which candidate they support. It encourages herd behavior, seeking the safety of the crowd, and hiding behind the cowardly defective notion of "electability." It encourages people to think that they should opt for the probably-most-popular candidate, & that the set of ideas represented is not really important. With ABB, a status-quo guy who's deemed "electable" is preferable to a visionary.

These tendencies are all low-consciousness forms of behavior -- exactly what is NOT needed, if you want individuals to make a bold and highly-principled choice. By touting "ABB," you encourage people to believe that voting in a primary is just like voting in a "Most Popular Guy" contest in high school. You encourage superficiality & diminish the role of critical thought.

Encouraging superficiality, popularity contests, & the notion that ideas are not really important -- all of these things are injurious to Dennis' candidacy. If we want people to behave boldly, acting on the basis of principle and high consciousness, and rejecting conformism, we shouldn't be filling their heads with slogans whose effect pushes them in just the opposite direction.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

1. This is the primary season

The uninformed voters will vote for "the guy everyone else is voting for" and push him over the top. You, the informed voter, have a chance to make a statement about your progressive ideals by voting for Dennis.

You have no reason not to and everything to gain if Dennis breaks into the double digits.

[redqueen]

2. So depressing

ABB = THE BEST reason to have Kucinich in the GE.

We have an unprecedented opportunity to advance the liberal agenda here. Will we pass it up and nominate a milquetoast 'me too' candidate instead?!

Why doesn't Kucinicn count as ABB? Why does everyone say he can't be elected, if most Dems are ABB?!

:argh:

[corporatewhore]

3. whats even more depressing is Kucinish is very electable in GE

Hes won in OHIO not liberal haven like mass or vt he apealed to reagan democrats because of his labor and trade policies he appeals to old school conservatives (who are pissed at bush) because of his stands on patriot act and free trade he also can take shrub on with his record (i kne there were no WMDs) he also appeals to greens libertarians and reform party membersand hell even my anarchist friends who dont vote on principle said they would vote for him and plus he could real excite the base during GE but dems wont vote for him in primaries

[NewYorkerfromMass]

4. I've always seen ABB as supersimplistic

but for other reasons. Namely, it is all about getting the best weapon against Bush (the guy who can beat him) and for me it has been Kerry. Clearly, as the results show so far, I am not alone in that feeling.

[John_H]

5. It's Ultra Simplistic! It's Simplecalifragelisticexpealidocious!

Me not self-absorbed. Me vote ABB. Me save America.

[MuseRider]

6. This is true, of course,

for the uninformed voter. For others it may be fear but for some they simply do not agree with Dennis. In a normal election I would find this a horrible way to vote but I understand the fear with this one. It does not affect me, I think Dennis is the best to beat Bush* and will stand with him until the end and if he is not elected find a way to work with his progressive program after. This is a sad but true statement you have made.

[Dhalgren]

9. I think that we all should be looking past the Nov. elections.

After the elections, it won't really matter a huge amount who wins - we all lose. It will be better if the president is a Democrat, but with the one likely to be elected, it won't be all that much better. Everything else will still be in Puke hands, so we have our work cut out for us.
I say we take this movement that Dennis has started and we build it up form the ground floor and along with maybe some antiwar/Dean supporters start taking states and congressional districts, mayors' offices and school boards. Maybe talk Dennis into switching from the Dems and getting Greens and others to join and turning this into a new party with the peoples' interests at heart. Sorry, I got lost for a minute in the realm of what could be.

[MuseRider]

14. "The realm of what could be."

He is starting a movement and it will be here long after the election. I do not think he has to change parties, in fact he does not seem likely to or even to want to. Whoever gets elected (if a Democrat) will need to be pushed aggressively with the progressive message. I am much less woried now than I was knowing that Dennis now has some national attention and a strong group of supporters who will help keep this movement alive. We may have to wait but while we wait we need not stop. You are right, we must start taking states, congressional districts etc. I see it as possible and look forward to that future.

[democracyindanger]

7. Acting snooty doesn't help your cause

Blaming ABB for your candidate's poor primary showings is really scraping the bottom of the excuse barrel. ABB is about keeping our eyes on the prize--about remembering that if your candidate doesn't become the nominee, you still need to get to the ballot box in November. It's not even CLOSE to suggesting that "ideas don't matter."

There are reasons Kucinich hasn't made a splash. And every election is, to one degree or another, a popularity contest. It's not good, but it's human, and it's reality. You can harumph, adjust your monocle and go on about how cowardly and bovine ABB is, but it's not Kucinich's problem.

Ore mabee im jest to ignant ta ken yer hifalootin lingo. Moo.

[youngred]

12. they didn't say blame

they said works against. but then again acting snooty doesn't help YOUR cause either "Ore mabee im jest to ignant ta ken yer hifalootin lingo. Moo."

[RichM]

13. No one claimed ABB was "the cause" for DK's poor primary showings.

The argument was rather that the ABB slogan works against Kucinich.

Therefore, your claim that I was "blaming ABB for (my) candidate's poor showing" criticizes a point I wasn't making.

[democracyindanger]

18. Semantics

You're just playing semantics. Your point was that ABB is a slogan that reinforces/encourages a mindset that turns people away from DK. How that *isn't* blaming it as a cause as to why he hasn't caught fire :shrug:

You think ABB is an order telling people that ideas don't matter, vote for anyone, join the herd. That's hardly the case.

The A is for Anybody. Clark, Dean, Edwards, Kerry, Kucinich, Lieberman, Sharpton. It gets people into the marketplace of ideas where all these candidates can sell their wares. It makes all the candidates viable. You're just misinterpreting it.

[rucky]

20. Irony (n)

i·ro·ny ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-n, r-)
n. pl. i·ro·nies

The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.
An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.
A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect. See Synonyms at wit1.


not snooty. not wrong. just ironic.

[RichM]

21. Nope, not semantics.

Yes, ABB encourages a mindset that turns people away from DK. But as far as I know, the "ABB" slogan is mainly a DU (or leftish Internet) phenomenon - & thus should have no noticeable effect on the voting public at large. Thus, I wouldn't dream of asserting it's responsible for the poor primary results -- even though the concept itself works against Dennis.

Your attack about "scraping the bottom of the barrel of excuses" for poor primary results makes no sense unless I'd asserted ABB was the cause, or a leading cause, of poor primary results. This was an assertion I never made, & don't even agree with.

[youngred]

24. No, I'm not

you're assigning a point that is not there and then attacking it. This is called a strawman argument.

I never said there was anything wrong with ABB (so now you're making things up on top of the false logic), and intend to follow taht doctrine in the GE.

It's not blaming, its a suggestion as to why the ABB idea harms Dennis' campaign, not blaming it for being the ONLY reason Dennis isn't doing as well as he should.

try again

[messiah]

8. The democratic party was in a war

for 2 1/2 years but that war in now over and the Dlc came out on top.

[Dhalgren]

10. You're right.

At this point, with the way the "top tier" of Dem candidates are talking, the "changes" that will occur with a Dem victory will be changes more in style than in substance. Not saying that that isn't better than Bush, but not as good as it could be. We should be in the business of changing America, not insuring the status quo.

[Desertrose]

11. amen! the status quo will still get us where we don't want to go...

only take a littel longer to get there. Nothing really changed..noone but the corporate & wealthy really benefitting...more & more "just plain folk" left behind.

Dennis is the only one who has the vision for what need to be changed...and has the belief & hope it can be done. Thats what inspires the rest of us....his pragmatic vision & ideals....

.........sigh...........

Peace
DR

[youngred]

15. Nah, The DLC won in 1994

there was an insurgency in response to Bush in the last 2.5 years, but the DLC is just putting it down now

[redqueen]

19. Amen

and Hallelujah

I wonder if this will be the last stand of the progressives within the Dem party.

[youngred]

25. I sure as hell hope not

or the country is in for a long slog.

will Historians of the 22nd Century say where was the populace when the country started this drift. The progressives were here...but no one listened....and the facism played on...

[goodhue]

16. very true n/t

[Iverson]

17. It's fear, the great motivator.

What we actually want from our representatives is no longer on the table for discussion about a democratic election. This stuff, "clarity and courage of conviction," is for discredited old perceptions of democracy.

In its place is a kind of cynical guess about who will be the most electachoosable. Superficiality and conformism are what win elections, so you'd better learn to like it, etc. etc..

Anyone who dissents is a hippie, socialist, pinko, naive, yadayadayada ...

[nolabels]

22. Who knew a bunch of hacks would take it literally?

As much as hate to say it, it's still true, ABB is where its at. We could or might have done better with the choices, but we could have done worse. With a little makeup, some coaching and lots a cheering crowds it will all work out fine <sarcasm off>

Really RichM don't you think we all should lighten up a bit. I mean like damn, we don't really live in a perfect world so how could we expect perfection anyway. Got to work with what ya got, ya know, not from where one thinks they should be, practically anyway.

I still remember them threads where people said they would hold their noses into voting booth if they had to. There are some good points in having someone thats not up to your expectations. Especially when they have been trying all their life to be that somebody.

Don't worry too much either, I don't think everybody else is going to dry up and blow away in the interim,if anything things are snow balling. I can also guarantee you, that there are many people here including me, that would be the last people to be joining any herd.

Nothing is wrong with questioning everything and excepting nothing at face value

On edit: I heard I got that herd thing incorrect (got to get that word processor installed on this new machine, effing technology anyway)

[hyphenate]

23. I like Dennis Kucinich

He is the candidate that comes closest to my own views. He's a very intelligent man, with thoughtful insight and a firm grasp on reality.

However, I despise GWB and the current regime. I despise him SO much, that regardless of my own personal preferences, I can not abide seeing anyone but the strongest candidate take Bush down, as completely and totally as possible.

Name recognition is important, moreso than any one candidate's ability and experience in this particular campaign. We need someone who can show Bush for the craphead that he is, and win this very tough election. Whoever gets the final nod in the campaign is going to have to fight a very bitter fight. The winner will be treated to unending bitterness by the extreme right, and will undoubtedly be slandered for quite some time until they get accustomed to the sh*t pouring out from the media, which, as we know, is truly right-wing in its slant.

Having someone who has a great deal of experience, in many different areas, is the best way to counteract the mental midget we all know and loathe. I think Dennis would make an admirable running mate, but that is all going to depend on who ends up being front runner, and who would accept a delay in getting their own presidential goals accomplished.

Most of us here on DU, I would assume (I could be wrong!) were devastated when Al Gore declined to run this year. He would have been, should have been, our candidate, and it is a foregone conclusion that much of the BS that has transpired over the past three + years might never have happened if Gore were sitting in the White House where he belongs. Regardless, however, we must contend with the fact that the far right is filled with an all-consuming need for power, and would have done nearly everything to make certain their candidate made it into the white house. We must prevent the neo-con and far right agenda from taking any more from us than they already have, which is far more than they ever should have been able to in the first place.

My hope is that each and every one of the current candidates is able to put their full agenda before the American people in such a manner that it raises doubts about the abilities (or lack thereof) of the mental moron, his entire regime and the special interest groups and corporations (like Halliburton, Enron and others) that have been sucking us dry, outsourcing jobs to increase the unemployment here in the U.S., and make certain that the publlic is as aware as they need to be about all these liars, about their agenda, and about the "gifts" they are giving out to the top 2% of the richest people in the country instead of helping out the true and real populace of this country.