John Kerry's 2004 WMD Grand Canyon speech flip-flop

[killerbush]

Back in the 2004 presidential election, the subject of Iraqi WMD was hot. Bush was taking a lot of heat over the fact that no WMD were found, (and still not found to this day). When the Senate passed a resolution permitting the use of military force to have Saddam's WMD taken out in 2003, John Kerry gave the president the go ahead. He said "Let me be clear, the vote I give Bush, is for one reason, and one reason only, is to disarm Iraq of WMD, if we cannot accomplish that objective through weapons insepctions".
Now in 2004, in a speech at the Grand Canyon, a repoter asked Kerry would he had given the authority for Bush to go to war, even though no WMD had been found. Kerry answered, "Yes, I still would have voted for the authority. I still believe it was the right thing to do".

So Kerry voted for the authority to go to war for one reason only, to disarm Saddam of WMD, but even though no WMD were ever found, Kerry still would have given to go ahead for Bush to go to war. When Republicans charged that Kerry was a flip-flopper, this is what they were talking about. You can make the arguement that the Senators didn't have the same info that Bush did, but that still does not explain Kerry's vote. Robert Bryd got up on the Senate floor in 2004, and said that certain Senators had given Bush a "blank check" to go to war. Although he never mentioned any names, one of them was certainly John Kerry.


http://www.bushwatch.org Scroll down a little to get the story.

[TayTay]

1. This is what happened that day:

ON THE TRAIL OF KERRY'S FAILED DREAM PAIR OF WARS DOMINTED STRATEGY BEFORE ELECTION
Boston Globe, THIRDfan, Sec. National/Foreign, p 24 11-14-2004
By Michael Kranish, Patrick Healy, Glen Johnson, Anne E. Kornblut, and Brian Mooney of the Globe staff. Written and reported by Nina J. Easton

On the afternoon of Aug. 9, John F. Kerry stood on the lip of the Grand Canyon, about to make one of the biggest mistakes of his three-year quest for the presidency. A stiff wind was blowing across the canyon, and Kerry, whose hearing was damaged by gun blasts in Vietnam, had trouble understanding some of the questions being thrown his way. But he pressed on, coughing from the pollen blowing on the breeze.

Would Kerry have voted to authorize the use of force in Iraq, one reporter asked, even if he knew then that Iraq didn't have weapons of mass destruction? "Yes, I would have voted for the authority; I believe it's the right authority for a president to have," Kerry replied, as aides stood by, dumb founded.

Kerry's answer ricocheted around the political world. Faced with the revelation that almost all the prewar arguments for invading Iraq were wrong the existence of weapons of mass destruction, close links to Al Qaeda President Bush had nonetheless insisted that he would do nothing differently. And he had been challenging Kerry to do the same, hoping to catch the Democrat changing his position on the unpopular war.

The senator explained to aides that part of the question had been lost in the wind; he thought he was answering a variation on the same basic query he'd been asked countless times: Was it right to give Bush the authority to go to war against Iraq? Kerry had simply given his standard "yes," with the proviso that he would have "done this very differently from the way President Bush has" yet the misunderstanding now muddied Kerry's message.

Worried advisers briefly considered issuing a clarification, but feared it might further feed Republican efforts to portray Kerry as a "flip-flopper."

******************

The Op states more RW spin.

[texastoast]

17. The Dems always need to clarify

Some Dems seem to think that generally accepted cultural rules of good manners are still in play. Witness Swift Boat. Kerry's intent should have gotten LOUDER than the RW pigs. This is a lesson to be learned for next time. No gloves.

It just sucks that it has to be that way among "civilized" people, especially those who are representing "leadership." Maybe the orangutan is right--we are just animals in pants.

[zbdent]

27. Dems always HAVE TO clarify

because the Repukes take everything out of context and smash us over the head with lies . . . whereas when we hit them with their truthful answers (AND in context), the media is silent and complacent . . . and they get away with clarifying . . .

[maddiejoan]

2. At the time.

Kerry didn't say if the vote was the next day he would still vote IWR. He said that it doesn't change the fact that he thought then it was the right thing to do.

Notice the PAST-TENSE.

[killerbush]

3. now we're parsing our words aren't we!!

[Itchinjim]

4. Let's all bash Kerry!

Jesus, didn't the Right do it enough in '04 without us piling on too?

[killerbush]

5. I'm not bashing Kerry, these are his own words

[Itchinjim]

6. What purpose does it serve to bring them up now?

Other than to bash Kerry?

[killerbush]

10. If Kerry gets the nomination in 08, you better be ready

To defend him from these kinds of things. It will more than likely come up again.

[Itchinjim]

14. From the Right or "Lefties" like you?

.

[puerco-bellies]

48. I thing you need to double-up the quotation marks on the term ""lefties""

In this particular case, and maybe through in an * or three.

[TayTay]

28. It will come up for every Dem in every election

There is not one national Dem or Dem currently considering a run for national office that will not be subject to this.

Not one.

[bowens43]

11. His own words and not a flip-flop

except in the minds of kerry haters.

[ginnyinWI]

26. I could never understand why the Right made such a big

deal about this! What is so wrong about changing your mind when your understanding of facts and realities changes? What is so wrong about using your head?
I mean, is this one of those things we learned at our mother's knee??
"Never tell a lie, Always take turns and play nice, Finish your vegetables, Brush your teeth before bed, and NEVER, EVER CHANGE YOUR MIND ABOUT ANYTHING!!!!!"

Oooooh Scary Stuff!!!! A man who changes his mind!!! :scared:
I mean, can't we just get over this stupid meme??

If we needed any more proof, just look at our stubborn, narrow-minded pResident and his stubborn, narrow-minded arrogant minions! It's a recipe for disaster in a leader.

They, by the way, said the same thing about Al Gore. It's one of their stock attack devices designed to create fear and uncertainty. But in reality, the scariest thing is to have a leader who can't or won't change when he needs to!

[killerbush]

36. You say he changed his mind, but,

The right will say he flipped. That's the difference. And if Kerry gets the nod in 08, you really think the Repubs are not going to use the same things all over again. That's exactly why I did this post. John Kerry has to be 1000% right in everything he does, or this will happen.

[ginnyinWI]

42. they may indeed use the same arguments.

It's their pattern; they don't seem to have too many new ideas. Look at how they are trying to sell Iran, just like they did Iraq.

The difference is that they have lost credibility big-time. It won't work--if they can't make a new argument, they won't be able to persuade the indies and moderates who have fled the GOP. The die-hard 20-30% base will never change, but we don't need them.

I find it interesting that so many people are getting so nervous about another Kerry run. I can see the advantages. If Kerry did decide to run, he'd run a different campaign. The old arguments wouldn't work on him, except with the die-hard base. I think the opposition would have a lot easier time smearing a "fresh face" in the eyes of the rest of the voters than trying to recycle old smears on a seasoned presidential nominee. We don't really know because this is new territory for Democrats. So people are getting jittery about it.

[texastoast]

51. Every politician should have integrity

The right is going to come up with something else beside flip-flopping if they do not have that. Remember, they are the disgusting bunch who came up with the Purple Heart Band-aids.

What tickles me is that hordes of people who did vote for shrubito in 2004 say the nation would have been much better off had Kerry won. Why they flip-flopped is very easy to support.

So, I guess that it is pretty common for people to change their minds based on hindsight. I think it is called reason.

FUCK the right.

[MaineDem]

7. And the purpose of this thread is...?

:eyes:

[librechik]

8. why the obsession over a remark by Kerry? Bush lies were the problem

NOBODY made an informed decision on IWR because the President lied about the evidence. That is the glaring misdeed in that incident, not Kerry's confusion.

[killerbush]

13. Bush's lies may have been the problem

but if Kerry does get the 08 nomination these remarks will become his problem

[bowens43]

9. not a flip-flop.

Kerry didn't vote to go to war. He voted to give the president the authority to go to war. Two very different things.

[killerbush]

12. yes Bowens43 a flip flop

[wtmusic]

15. But he "still believes it was the right thing to do"? In 2004?!

Kerry has persistent problems with this, and they are largely of his own making.

[killerbush]

16. wtmusic ,correct

[NavyDavy]

18. see this is what i am always saying,

we can never come together and vote for our party just because we don't agree with the dem candidate and that is why the repugs win they put aside the petty crap and vote for the repug candidates

[texastoast]

19. You are right--this is petty crap, especially from our own side

Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[NavyDavy]

20. Thank You

[killerbush]

22. These are his own words, and his own words have bitten him

[killerbush]

21. petty crap my ass

You want a flipper for a president? I sure don't. If Kerry gets the nod in 08, it won't be petty now will it.

[NavyDavy]

24. it is petty crap....period...i would rather have a flip flopping

dem prez, which he is not, than a full of sh*t repug lying prez. sorry, if i insulted your prez....

[killerbush]

32. he's not my prez

However Navy Davy, you would want a flipper for a president huh!! Interesting.

[texastoast]

29. Petty crap

That's what I think, and I'm not arguing any more. Who do you want for president?

[CTLawGuy]

31. tell 2000

greiving families that this is petty crap....

[ProSense]

34. Those families are grieving because of Bush! n/t

[CTLawGuy]

69. Bush didn't need anyone helping him

We needed real leaders in the US Senate, who might have killed the bill, and forced Bush to go to war alone, if at all, and not with the approval of Congress.

I and thousands if not millions of people who wrote and called into congress and begged them to vote against the IWR, knew that something was not right.

We knew that Bush had no evidence that was worth anything, and we knew that he would take warmaking power and use it for the only purpose that someone would ask for warmaking power to do

-to go to war.

This war IS primarily Bush's fault, but it doesn't mean he is solely at fault. We controlled the Senate for goodness sakes. We could have quashed IWR and put forth a more limited bill or forced him to make a blatant power grab, and accept resultant political fallout.

Too bad Tom Daschle wasn't a real leader.

too bad Kerry cared more about his political career.

[texastoast]

37. Bush lied to everyone to get the authority

Let him tell them that he lied to Kerry and all others in a shifty-eyed display of arrogance and disdain for human life.

Manipulating the "facts," preying on American fear, and fueled by the greed of large corporations making hay in wartime, Bush murdered all those soldiers and the collaterally-damaged Iraqis, and upon his head lies not only his karma for that, but also for the poison that will touch our children for generations to come. Period.

[texastoast]

38. Bush lied to get the authority

Let him tell them that he lied to Kerry and all others in a shifty-eyed display of arrogance and disdain for human life.

Manipulating the "facts," preying on American fear, and fueled by the greed of large corporations making hay in wartime, Bush murdered all those soldiers and the collaterally-damaged Iraqis, and upon his head lies not only his karma for that, but also for the poison that will touch our children for generations to come. Period.

[kestrel91316]

23. Boy, some REPUBLICANS just can't give it up about Kerry,

can't they???????
Sheesh.
Welcome to DU. Enjoy your stay.

[NavyDavy]

25. no the trolls can't and thank you

[sandnsea]

30. Pure flame bait

I have absolutely no idea why this kind of shit keeps getting posted. Democrats have different views on the IWR vote. The end.

[killerbush]

33. This goes to the heart about what Kerry stands for

If he's a flipper on this issue, how many more issues will he flip over??

[ProSense]

35. Comprehension!

Some people have comprehension and/or information retention problems!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1015710&mesg_id=1015710

[blm]

39. If you don't know his 35 year public record by now what does it say about

YOU?

What Kerry stands for and has throughout his public life for THIRTY FIVE YEARS is HONEST GOVERNANCE and OPEN GOVERNMENT.

You think the ONE lawmaker who has investigated and exposed more government corruption than ANY OTHER LAWMAKER in modern history doesn't stand for anything?

You think YOU could have stuck it out pursuing BCCI for five years with no help and an entire DC powerstructure working to STOP you?

[killerbush]

40. Honest governance, maybe, but this says something also.

[blm]

41. MAYBE???>?? Maybe to the historically challenged , but not those of

us who BOTHER to know what has gone on in the last 50 years and how it connects to everything happening today.

You just stick to the bone you insist on chewing on for some narrow agenda and see how much it really matters in the long run.

If I was that underinformed, I'd get my eyeballs over to the National Security Archives and play catch up. Had you done it sooner, you could have HELPED in 2004 instead of perpetuating the smears of the editted campaign from corporate media.

[killerbush]

43. This isn't about me buddy

This is about Kerry and his flip-flopping. Republicans called him that, and it worked. You just don't like the fact that I came up with an example of it. I am one of the most well informed people around. I know Bush is an asshole, but to have John Kerry sit there and now call the war a failure, when he supported it even without finding WMD's, just reeks of hypocrisy. You maybe willing to give him a pass on this, but I'm not. Yes, it's 2 years old, but if Kerry gets the nod in 08, the Republicans will bring it up again.

[ProSense]

45. So let the Republicans bring it up. Are you a Republican? n/t

[blm]

64. Kerry has always been for war as a LAST RESORT his entire life. YOU'RE mad

because he IS being the Kerry he's ALWAYS BEEN and challenging the government to be HONEST if and when they do go to war and to have a plan to get out - just as he has done for over 35 years.

If you can't see that, then you have a narrow view that CAN'T be effected by historical facts or present ones.

I wonder if you think it's fair if you were the focus and some told everyone to judge you as a hypocrite any time a phrase of yours is used against you when taken out of context or misinterpreted or spun by your enemies.

[rockymountaindem]

63. Don't wear out those right wing talking points

I hear they're increasingly rare these days, you might want to hang on to them for posterity. Then you can tell your grandkids how "I called Kerry a flip-flopper, even on liberal websites!" 30 years from now.

[paulk]

44. anyone following Kerry's campaign would have seen that

this statement didn't fit in with what he'd been previously saying about Iraq, and those not searching for partisan advantage would have given him the benefit of the doubt - perhaps he didn't hear the question; perhaps he misspoke - something his opponent seemed to be doing every single day without a media outcry. But, the Republicans seized on this and directed their MSM lapdogs to turn it into a defining issue. The sad thing is that the left seized on this also.

Another sad thing is that this issue is still being used, either by the RNC or those, perhaps, already fighting the 2008 elections. It is divisive and disruptive and one really has to question your motives in continuing to push the right wing "flip flopper" meme.

[guidod]

46. This is why I prefer Feingold,

Kerry does talk out of both sides of his mouth.

[Mass]

47. No, he does not - but the GOP says that and some people like you

apparently believe it (that is the polite version of what I think).

At least he did not vote to confirm Ashcroft, Roberts, or Rice.

[guidod]

55. I didn't say I didn't like Kerry

or I wouldn't vote for him. All I said is sometimes he seems to say what people want to hear. Maybe I'm reading your opening thread wrong, I'll try again.

[Mass]

57. And all I said is that I disagree. He does not do that.

but sadly, some people repeat what the media says rather than listening to him.

All politicians change their mind from time to time. Would you have preferred that Kerry did not change his mind (independently from the fact that the OP is factually inaccurate (see the correct explanation upthread). Only people like Bush do not until it is really too late and we should be really afraid of them.

The good news is that most people in this thread understand to what point the OP is biased.

[guidod]

58. Okay fine, he doesn't do that.

[blm]

65. No - his words get taken out of context by corporate media spinners who

get their paychecks signed by BushInc's buddies.

Some Dems get taken so easily and sucked into the vortex of RNC talking points and perpetuate the spin.

[sandnsea]

74. oh please

Mr. Feingold, you said "I agree that Iraq presents a genuine threat, especially in the form of weapons of mass destruction: chemical, biological and potentially nuclear weapons" and, "We must act. We must act with serious purpose and stop the weapons of mass destruction and stop Saddam Hussein" and that you hoped "Saddam Hussein will actually be removed from power this time."

How can you say all of that Mr. Feingold, and then vote no on the IWR? Considering, Mr. Feingold, we didn't even have inspectors in Iraq in Oct of 2002?

And let him be hammered with that, and a thousand variations, for an entire year, and see how he holds up.

[politicasista]

49. Wow, we're back in 2004

What ever happened to holding Bush, Cheney, Rove and the conservative repukes accountable. This is just flamebait.

[Mass]

50. Nice thought, but I doubt JK worries about this this type of attacks.

I would mainly question the intentions of the OP, and particularly for whom he is rooting.

[politicasista]

52. I would too

I was just basing this on hearing about his first wife. It has to be difficult for them right now.

[Mass]

54. I know. I meant that I doubt that Kerry has any interest in this OP,

particularly today. I dont think he is busy reading DU.

More interestingly, the OP, while he is bashing Kerry, said in another thread he was supporting Lieberman as senator of CT against Lamont. Not exactly coherent.

[politicasista]

61. Interesting

*edited original post

[Dr Fate]

53. Hi Karl- your tired, dishonest talking points wont work in '08.

Everyone else in the country has "flip-flopped" and does not trust Bush in handling FP anymore either.

Who are you supporting in the primaires?

[MH1]

68. What I don't get is

if everyone who labeled this "trollish" or "flamebait" has alerted on it - what the DU rules say to do - why is the post not locked yet?

Just wonderin'. Maybe there's a particularly nasty infestation today?

[Dr Fate]

78. I have been critical of Kerry in the past myself.

But the way some of this stuff is re-hashed, over & over. It gets old.

Guess what- I dont like Kerry's earlier positions either- but why would I want to re-open that debate?

[ALago1]

56. Did I just step into a time portal?

I feel like it's October 2004 again...

[AtomicKitten]

59. BushCo lying about WMD is infinitely more egregious.

[Dr Fate]

60. NO! We must rage against the machine!!! Where is your gas mask?

Only a capitalist PIG would eat those candy bars.

Those sweet, salty, scrumptious candy bars...must resist.

[Stinky The Clown]

62. Why is this bullshit being posted?

To start, while I voted for Kerry and would again were he to get the nom in '08, I'm far from one of his cheerleaders.

With that out of the way .......

What Kerry said and what he meant were correct and justifiable ..... however inartful the response. And it was, to be clear, inartful. And it did, to be clear, signal the start of the flip flopper thing.

But let's at least be intellectually honest now, okay?

You know what he meant by his statement. I know what he meant by his statement. **They** knew then, and the know now, what he meant by his statement.

To portray his words - then or now - as a flip flop is intellectually dishonest.

[Adelante]

66. Yes, Kerry "bobbled" the question

Agree this is bullshit.

[incapsulated]

70. Frankly, I thought he didn't hear the question right

They were yelling at him in the middle of the Grand Canyon, for chrissakes.

I mean compare this to just about any of the bullshit that dribbled out of the chimp's mouth during the election? This was the media attempting to "get" Kerry and they ran with it.

[MH1]

72. Kinda like "Gore invented the internet"

In this case there was the bad luck that he actually did hear the question wrong and gave the wrong answer (if I understand correctly) but like you said....compare this to kind of crap the chimperor said every other day. Sigh.

[incapsulated]

73. Exactly

A dem gives an awkward answer to a question they may have heard incorrectly, and everyone in america hears about it. Repukes tell baldfaced lies every fucking day and there is no comment.

[MH1]

76. AND..

members of the dem's party beat them up about an awkward answer instead of defending the dem and beating up the repuke for the baldfaced lies. While the repuke's party members will defend their guy's (or gal's) lies to the end. And just nod their heads to the dem pundits beating on the dem candidate's well-intentioned but awkward answer.

:banghead:

[incapsulated]

79. Dem pundits...

Going at other Dems make me see red, they should be flogged. :puke:

This is all ancient history, in "political time". It's stupid and pointless, now.

[Adelante]

75. It's a total crock

I can't even believe anyone would be posting this nonsense here.

[karynnj]

67. Thank you

I absolutely agree with everything you say here - and add that we need to be realize that any candidate out speaking up to 14 to 16 hours a day, will slip, will to use your excellent word respond inartfully at some point.

Bush did it many times an hour - and the media dropped it - even when he said things like we can't win the war on terror. The Republicans will use flip/flop for every Democrat, even when the Republican candidate is more guilty on that count.

[Adelante]

77. That's the thing

Politicians are human. This thread is really pissing me off. This shit must stop.

[sandnsea]

71. I alerted hours ago

This post has absolutely nothing to do with nothing. I'm amazed shit like this is allowed to stay. Then again, people are allowed to tell me to go fuck myself, and nothing is ever done about that either. So I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

[LittleClarkie]

80. Could you ask yourself one question for me?

Where did you get that precise phrase "flip flop"?

Btw, if the story from Newsweek is true, he didn't hear the question properly, answered the question he THOUGHT he'd been asked, and hence no, it wasn't a change in position from what he'd said before. The staff's mistake at that point was not coming out and saying that Kerry had misheard the question. Or perhaps that would have made it worse. We'll not know now.

Also, why are you posting this as if it's something entirely new? Scroll down to "get the story"? Dude, you got scooped. By about 2 years. This story is so old it has mold around the edges.

[ncrainbowgrrl]

81. Locking.

This thread, while the original poster may not have intended for it to be, is flamebait. It is neither productive, nor constructive, at this point, and thus will be locked.