Let's hear your plan for finding and shipping back millions of illegals

[prolesunited]

Really. I'm serious.

For all of you who want these people out of your country, let's hear how it will be accomplished.

[DS1]

1. Ever see Animal House?

Drop a fake parade leader in front of the marches, take them around the corner and load them into trucks.

[gratuitous]

6. I was thinking of waving a magic wand . . .

But who can resist following the guy with the drum major's thingie? Brilliant!

[lumberjack_jeff]

2. Buses. n/t

[prolesunited]

7. Please elaborate

How do you ID them all?

What about any property/belongings they've acquired?

What about mixed-status families? Break up spouses? Separate U.S.-born children from their parents?

[lumberjack_jeff]

21. The same way that undocumented bank-withdrawers are handled

It's not that hard - except for the people doing the illegal thing.

I don't propose to identify all of them, I propose to try to identify them one at a time. For starters, each duplicate social security number that is used should result in a visit by the FBI to the workplace at which it is used (the one most remote from the owner of the SS#'s residence of record. It's unlikely that someone is employed and lives in Nebraska would also work in Phoenix).

If a pattern of behavior by the employer can be determined (he's not just a victim of deception) then he should be punished too.

Not a legal worker? Using fake ID? "The bus leaves daily at 2 hour intervals - you're free to bring family if you wish. To which country will you be going, or do you prefer US jail while we investigate?"

If I grow dope, the cops will sieze my house and belongings and my children will go into foster care. Growing dope doesn't harm anyone. Illegal immigration suppresses everyone's wages and reduces the likelihood of americans finding employment - there is tangible harm in it. I see no compelling reason why justice should be so much less harsh.

Every touchy-feely "solution" to this problem that I've heard involve some form of setting up the conditions where people don't want to emigrate from their own society to ours. The only way to do that is to make our society suck worse than theirs. Count me out.

[prolesunited]

44. Truly a great vision of a fascist police state

Count me out.

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. When enforcing the laws is considered "fascist"...

The term has lost it's meaning.

Benito Mussolini preferred the term "corporatism", and the current support for unhindered immigration serves primarily their purposes.

Exhibit #1, Tyson foods gave its employees the day off to protest for illegal immigration.

Does corporate lobbying pay well?

[The Magistrate]

64. It Depends, Sir

Somewhat on the character of the law, and of its enforcement.

The uprooting and transportation of twelve millions of people is an enterprise that by its very nature cannot be conducted without a great deal of brutality, and the infliction of great suffering.

[lumberjack_jeff]

67. Reasonable people can disagree...

... on whether controlling who comes in and out of one's country is prudent and just. I think it is.

Nevertheless, that is the status of the law today. Corporate america has encouraged 12 million people to become lawbreakers, and elected officials have done little to stop it.

Any dentist can tell you that ignoring a problem long enough will result in infliction of great suffering, but that does not imply that it's unnecessary.

[shain from kane]

23. Water-logged New Orleans' buses? n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

26. No. Air conditioned ones would be fine. n/t

[Javaman]

68. Who will pay for the buses? who will pay for the gas...

who will pay for the overtime for the border patrol agents? who will pay for our FBI to be hunting them down?

We will. No thanks.

require business to pay competitive wages so U.S. citizens can compete for those same jobs and you will see the level of illegal immigration go down and the amount of illegals already in this country decrease.

[lumberjack_jeff]

69. Me and thee

Americans are the ones that have let it get this bad. We've tolerated and ignored a problem which has resulted in 4% of the population being here illegally.

Our minimum wage is a major attraction. It's counterintuitive to suggest that it's not high enough to stop attracting illegals.

[Javaman]

72. You missed my point. If you make the price wages high enough

so the poor in this country would compete with the illegals, then illegal migration would slow because competition for those jobs would increase.

Granted our minimum wage is a major attraction, but if it was at at living wage standard for U.S. citizen, then Americans would find those jobs attractive. Right now with what these businesses are paying the illegals, no American could possibly survive on that pay. Believe it or not, the poor in this nation have a higher standard of living than the people coming in from Mexico.

Also, on other issue is this: if illegals make more money, what is the crime in that? Right now many if not all live in substandard conditions. Infusing more money into the latino population is good for everyone because it would increase their standard of living and since they have an enormous amount of buying power in the U.S. could lift our economy.

To me it's a win win situation.

As for the businesses if they pay more money, they will usually get a better educated worker, who then would be able to pay for better food, health-care, cover their living expenses and allow their children to go to college.

What is wrong with that?

Until the jobs that illegals are hired for are made more competitive, the illegal immigration will continue.

[lumberjack_jeff]

73. "if illegals make more money, what is the crime in that?"

I suspect you're trying to make a rhetorical point, but the literal irony gets in the way. "Illegals" working for *any* money here is, by definition, a crime.

1) An illegal who sends his paycheck back home has less of a buoyant effect on our economy than someone for whom this is home.
2) Enforcing a living wage on every employer is admirable but unrealistic. In my area the primary employer of illegals are the tree planting companies. The planters are paid in cash and it's notoriously hard to police it. If the mandated wage for tree planting was $15 per hour, few legitimate companies would be able to compete.
3) There's ample competition for jobs now - that's why wages are low.

[0007]

74. The people that will pay the bill are the greedy businessmen

that hired these low wage earners to increase profits. That's who'll pay. And the legal immigrant worker that wasn't getting at least minimum wage should be reimburse by the nasty business or go to prison.

No problemo!

[napi21]

3. Quite simple. Heavily fine the employers for the first offense, and

jail them for the 3rd! When the jobs are gone, the opportunity and reason for illegals to be here is gone.

Might I add, they could begin with Tyson, Perdue, & Cargill, all who shut their operations today because they said there wouldn't be enough employees to run the operation!

[sendero]

14. Thanks.

.... for doing my light work.

They are here because labor and immigration laws are NOT ENFORCED.

[Nederland]

55. A Second Thanks

People seem to think that it would be difficult. It's not. What's lacking is the desire on the part of government to get rid of cheap labor.

[Triana]

65. Bingo! (n/t)

[OregonBlue]

75. My thoughts exactly!!

[rocktivity]

4. The first thing you have to do is take away the incentive to stay.

1. No amnesty, no path to citizenship. Why reward them for breaking the law, especially if it will only encourage others to sneak across our borders?

2. The fines were recently increased for if you say a bad word on TV. Drastically inclrease them for businesses who hire illegal workers.

3. Also, Bush should tell Vincente Fox that if he doesn't start tightening his side of the border and solving his own economic problems, he will forcibly remove him from power!

:headbang:
rocknation

[prolesunited]

13. So, you actually advocate

removing another sovereign leader from power if they don't do our bidding.

So, who's next. Chavez? China and Russia aren't doing our bidding on Iran. Are they next?

Why not simply declare the U.S. the ruler of the world? And, if other leaders won't do our bidding, we'll just bomb them. Does that work for you?

[rocktivity]

16. I don't advocate it, but Bush does.

If he's going to forcibly remove someone from power, ALL Americans should benefit from it, not just the ones who can afford to show up to his fundraisers!

:evilgrin:
rocknation

[IndyJones]

57. Agree with everything except we can't forcibly remove Fox.

[mshasta]

5. wtf!!!

are you for real?
Picture this one....let's hear your plan for finding and shipping thousands of soldiers out of IRAQ!!!

is an illegal war and they are killing illegal innocent life’s...that is criminal…that is a felony…..that is illegal..

[prolesunited]

8. I don't follow

I'm sure the U.S. knows the location of its soldiers. And, chances are, they are more than willing to leave Iraq.

[Festivito]

9. Eliminate the greed that has us pay people less than a living wage.

Then no one will care if they are here.

Then, with greed gone, we also pay people well in their own countries. Then they too, will return to live near their loved ones.

Problem solved.

[Stinky The Clown]

12. How would you propose we do *that*?

An anti-greed law?

You make a good point. Greed is, indeed, at the heart of it, but there's no way to legislate out of it.

[Festivito]

22. Greed drives this problem, we either de-greed ourselves or have a problem.

I think we're going to have the problem instead of eliminating greed.

How to eliminate greed? We need to understand why we are a nation.
Talk with each other.
Meet with each other.
Work with each other.
Listen to each other.
Reach each other.

It can happen.

But, even here on DU, at times, we cannot agree that we disagree. So, I don't expect much at the moment.

Why? Want to start a movement?

[RaleighNCDUer]

28. You can't eliminate greed by legislation, but you can eliminate

greedy behavior.

Set standards, and enforce them, and punish those who violate the standards. If employers find it more profitable to pay a fair wage and avoid punishment, they will hire legal workers.

[saltpoint]

10. The only instance in which I would support deportation of undocumented

immigrants would be if Dick Cheney PERSONALLY drove every one of the estimated 12 million back in a huge SUV. Obviously, it would take SEVERAL trips.

The SUV's CD player would be automatically programmed for various musicians from Central and South America, and Mexico, plus a good dose of Neil Young, Pink, Dylan, Springsteen, and so forth. Twenty-four seven multicultural, leftwing music.

If Dick Cheney wants to do that, and PAY FOR HIS OWN GAS and get all 12 million back south of the border, then I'm in.

___

Absent that, we need adults in charge and as soon as possible, competent and compassionate adults in charge. I don't sense that that's the case right now.

I think that's a good starting point.

[MADem]

11. Every person who EMPLOYS an undocumented worker

--Goes Directly To Jail. It's a FELONY charge, nonwaiverable, no plea bargains. Minimum one year term, no time off for good behavior, NO PAROLE. If the employer has many employees, the time goes up, to a max of ten years. Does not pass go, or collect two hundred dollars.

--The employers are fined $500,000 PER EMPLOYEE. This fine is not waived, ever. You can't pay it? They'll garnish a percentage of your pay for the REST OF YOUR LIFE, if need be. These funds go into a pot to assist returning workers without funds with airfare to get home. Any balance goes to pay down the debt.

Do that, and no one will stay. Who wants to stay here, except for the wages??? It's not like the weather is always great, or the people are especially warm and welcoming...they're here to work, they just want to feed their families.

[Stinky The Clown]

15. Thank you!

A rational policy postulation.

Carrot and stick always works.

You idea is a damn good stick.

Don't *severely* criminalize the people who cross the border (like, uh, declare them all to be felons), but DO make felons of those who cause them to come here. And I'm not talking about he homeowner who hires a gardener. I'm talking about the employers who put the use of illegals into the fucking business plans.

[nickshepDEM]

17. Id support something like that.

Sadly there isnt a politician in Washington who agrees with us.

[0007]

76. I know! They're looking for votes and when they see million & millions

of people protesting, they salivated and rub their greedy hands together.

[AzDar]

20. Now THAT sounds righteous! n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

25. Why would an employer risk hiring anyone hispanic?

It's hard for an employer to guarantee with 100% certainty that an applicant is truly entitled to work and not just lying.

An employer who knowingly hires illegals should be fined heavily. The conditions should be set up where it's harder for an employer to claim ignorance.

[MADem]

35. It isn't hard to verify a green card, and INS could make it even easier

Usually, when someone is hired, they fill out paperwork, go get a physical, all of that crap. They often don't start the same day. Add in a step to require production of verifiable identification of US birth, like a birth certificate, US passport, or naturalization papers. No papers, no job.

Green card holder? Establish an office at INS where the employer scans/sends the card to INS, and the validity of the card is verified AT INS--the employer shouldn't be expected to be a document expert, but all those cards are numbered and coded, and if Juan Valdez is running around with a fake card containing Emilio Estevez's number, that will become apparent IMMEDIATELY. It's a case of simple data entry, and the card either matches (picture and all) or it doesn't. If they need to charge for the service, fine, charge the employer, and give them a business deduction on their federal taxes for taking the extra step.

It CAN be done. This country, and this pretzledunce, lack the WILL to do it. It's much easier to beat up on people who are only doing what they can get away with, while continuing to stall the issue and provide low wage workers to businesses and households who contribute heavily to the GOP.

[shain from kane]

30. Outsource their jobs. n/t

[Yupster]

58. Would that include me when I hire

someone to mow the lawn?

I'm sure I've hired many undocumented workers over the years.

[MADem]

66. Yeah, it would!

But if you hired a local company to do your lawn care, and THEY sent over the undocumented worker, it would all be on them. The problem isn't just the corporations, it's the householders, as well, who want Pablo to clean the pool, Pedro to blow the leaves and mow the lawn, Luz to cook, Maria to clean, and Josefina to care for the kids, at half the wages they'd pay anyone with a valid SSAN and a US birth certificate. Exploitation is exploitation, even if it gently done.

[0007]

77. Yes!

[elehhhhna]

18. FIrst, secure the border somehow. Issue ID to existing immigrants, offer

amnesty and a way home to those who want out or have crimonal backgrounds (etc.), and establish a method for securing citizenship for those who work, have made their homes here, and/or are raising american-citizen children.

Enforce labor laws/compliance, across the board -- OSHA inspections, overtime pay, SS, workers contrib's--the wholel enchilada--this will, btw, spur some inflation, but it's necessary.

Next:

Work for indexed increases the min. wage & phase in national single payer Health care.

[MercutioATC]

19. A sensible plan:

1) Heavily fine U.S. companies who employ undocumented workers.

2) Increase border security (not just for immigration issues, but as a general security issue).

3) Deport all illegals as they're happened upon (registering for social benefits, school, driver's licenses, medical care; or legal violations like traffic violations). No felony prosecutions, no door-to-door searches, just deport people as they surface.

[The Magistrate]

27. The First Two Are Good, Sir

The third will feature all the whimsy of arrests for marijuana possession, and have about as big a dent in the matter. Twelve millions is an awful lot of people....

[MercutioATC]

31. The point isn't to prosecute them, but to identify them.

...and it's not designed to deport 12M people at once.

I can't think of a less intrusive (or economically viable) way to deal with the issue...

[The Magistrate]

50. It Is A More Reasonable Proposal Than Most, Sir

There simply is no practical and humane method by which twelve millions can be deported, though. There are many problems that have no solution....

"For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, obvious, and wrong."

[LiberalEsto]

24. Tell the Pope to accept family planning

Somehow I don't think there would be such a huge flood of immigrants if people had access to safe, effective family planning. But the Catholic church opposes birth control.

I have no idea what to do about the people already here. I don't know that anything SHOULD be done, other than provide lots of resources to teach them English, and help them to become good citizens.

[shain from kane]

29. Send them to Rome. One-way ticket. It's in The Bible. n/t

[Bridget Burke]

33. In the King James Version, perhaps....

Now, now! You're not supposed to let your xenophobia show. Talk the economic angle instead of letting us know that your USA is for WASP's only.

[shain from kane]

38. Don't you believe that illegal immigrants of the Catholic faith owe more

allegiance to the Pope than to our Nation of Laws? After all, they are blatantly breaking the law every day that they remain in the country, and they knew it when they crossed the border in that manner. Maybe a few of them got lost and accidentally crossed the border and still do not know where they are, since it is all starting to look like Mexico.

That Bible part was for any fundamentalists lurking around out there. They are all ready paging through their concordances looking for the reference.

[LiberalEsto]

39. I'm not sure what your point is.

Mine is that Mexico wouldn't be quite as burdened with overpopulation if people there had access to safe family planning information. Unfortunately the Pope and bishops oppose that.

[shain from kane]

40. That's all fine and dandy when their populations are 4-5,000 miles

away from the capital city of Rome. If his constituents lived in Vatican City, surrounding their leader, who, after being steeped in misery, may even change his mind about population control. Remember, the Pope is also the leader of his country, a most important distinction that is made when our Presidents and State Department personnel meet with him and remind us that they are not meeting with a dogmatic religtious leader, but a head of state.

[Bridget Burke]

52. The Pope has NO political power in Mexico....

The Revolution of 1910-1920 was virulently anti-clerical. The people with some education have access to contraception. But the Government offers little information to those who are poorer and/or less educated.

[Bridget Burke]

45. "our Nation of Laws" ?

How can you type that smarmy phrase without vomiting on the keyboard?

No, I don't see that the Mexicans owe more allegiance to the Pope. Besides, not all of them are Catholic. The Fundamentalists will gladly blame the Pope. They got your message loud & clear.

[shain from kane]

46. Do you prefer anarchy, rather than law? Well, there is almost a state

of anarchy, threats of martial law (proposals for the Army to police the border), and vigilante law (Minutemen and militias patroling), in some chaotic parts of certain states in the Southwest United States.
I was just saying let the Pope live in Vatican City surrounded by the chaos that his attitude towards birth control has created, and he would probably change his mind. We are being forced to deal with rampant overpopulation while he lives in Rome surrounded by Swiss guards and celibate priests and Cardinals. When a big crowd shows up to see him, do you think that he has any concept of the misery that he is partially responsible for? No, he thinks the crowd is there because he is so important in their daily lives, and he thinks that he is God on earth.
As far as the fundamentalists are concerned, they are always dipping into The Bible to justify all kinds of action. It was part of the joke that they should consult their Bibles in an effort to justify sending the immigrants to Rome, where the Pope can support his loving constituency in his loving embrace.

[Bridget Burke]

53. Last I checked, Rome was pretty crowded....

I live in Houston, Texas, home of rapid growth. But there's no "chaos." No anarchy. Don't believe what the Minutemen tell you.

The Fundamentalists agree with you about the Pope. Aren't you proud?

Look: Emphasize the economic aspects of immigration. Hatred of "different" religions is a bit too close to xenophobia. And racism.

"Nation of Law"--on the same level as "9/11 changed everything."

[shain from kane]

43. Xenophobia? Some of my best employees, er...friends are Mexicans. n/t

[LiberalEsto]

37. I don't want to send them anywhere....

I think those who are here should be allowed to stay here.

I would just like to see Mexican women get access to family planning information and contraceptives, same as in the U.S. Unfortunately President Chimp issued a gag order in 2001 on providing family planning information to other countries.

Here are some facts from the Planned Parenthood Foundation website:

"Mexico's population has tripled since the 1950s to nearly 100 million, and it is expected to double again in 32 years."

"Population growth, coupled with large-scale migration from rural to urban areas, is straining Mexico's infrastructure and government services."

"According to the Fundación Mexicana para la Planificación Familiar (MEXFAM, an affiliate of International Planned Parenthood Federation), the country's leading private family planning provider in Mexico, only 44 percent of married women of reproductive age in rural areas use some kind of contraceptive. Sterilization is by far the most common method, followed by the IUD, the pill, injectables, and the rest use traditional methods."

"Traditional methods, such as drinking an herbal tea thought to have abortifacients properties or withdrawal, are very common in rural areas mainly because women there lack access to modern contraceptive services and information."

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/files/portal/international/wherewework/where-mexico-reproductive.xml

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

36. If the illegals have already been here many years

and contributed a lot to our economy, paid into it, been exploited already by employers basically, then they deserve some sort of real compensation, probably an upgrade to green card status at the least. They don't need language-teaching resources or other special investments targeted at them, if they've stuck it out this long they know what's going on here. In some of the SW states people have long been going back and forth across the current border for centuries in seasonal work, and so in this sort of a special case, I'm not sure that much should be done.

As others here have been pointing out, the answer probably lies at the pull side, rather than the push, and in policies directed at exploitative employers in the first place. Unfortunately, I don't see even minor reforms being made in this respect. Those businesses are very politically powerful and could pull the rug out from members of either party who inconvenience them, and the minor irritations that would arise-- e.g. some rises in the price of goods at grocery stores-- would probably annoy the American Idol-watching Rush Limbaughites enough to attack policymakers who push for such changes.

[juajen]

54. I know, let's send them to Vatican City

I'm sure there are lots of jobs there.

[shain from kane]

56. Maybe there are jobs that the pedophile priests will not do. n/t

[hanginthere]

32. No plan neccessry.

We are simply enforcing existing laws.
What will be necessary is massively increased funding of the agencies that enforce these laws.
I propose that this funding be obtained by heavy, rigidly enforced fines on "illegal employers" which should be the issue anyhow

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

34. Train cars.

The kind used to ship cattle, retrofitted with barbed wire to keep the small ones from slipping out between the bars.

Of course, we'll need camps along the way to concentrate the shipments as they come in.

It's drastic, but that will be the final solution to our immigrant problem.

:sarcasm:

[AndyTiedye]

41. Enforce The LABOR LAWS (And Raise the Minimum Wage!)

The reason employers hire illegals is because they can get away with
flagrant violation of wage and hour laws, OSHA, and all the other laws
that are supposed to protect workers.

They can get away with this because if the workers complain,
the employer calls La Migra.

When employers are caught, they claim they were acting in good faith,
and are generally believed (could YOU spot a good fake ID?), so nothing
happens to them.

The real crime is the wages and working conditions, and the employers
cannot claim ignorance of those. Bust them for that, and allow workers
to sue for triple damages for labor law violations. Go after the
employers for unpaid payroll taxes as well. What these employers are
doing is a crime no matter where their workers come from.

[sinkingfeeling]

42. And how are you paying for it?

[gizmo1979]

47. Offer free airfare to anywhere in the world but here?

[maxsolomon]

48. really. not my job.

i am not INS.

but limiting &/or controlling immigration is not such a bad idea.

[MelliMel]

51. No need to deport just dry up the reason to come.

Fine the employers, and yess, all the emplyers, into bankrupty. Dry up the jobs and then you will dry up the problem with illegal immigration.

[skids]

59. Don't have one, but for historical context...

I think the biggest such operation was "Operation Wetback" where 3.8 million were deported. It was totalitarian, however.

http://www.pbs.org/kpbs/theborder/history/index.html

If this is the same one I'm thinking of, other than the goose-stepping there was one point of actual strategy in it: they drew a line across, and focused their operations along that line, moving it south at regular intervals and backfilling where thought necessary. The result was that many fled across the border ahead of the advance, rather than face the forceful deportation.

I'm not advocating any such thing, just offering context, that is ALL.

[prolesunited]

62. They rounded thousands up where I live

during the Depression -- some of them U.S. citizens. If they had brown skin, they were gone.

[pezdespencer]

60. I've got it.

illegal war + illegal aleins = low cost killers deport to iraq

J/K :)

[TankLV]

61. Don't have any such plan contemplated, but I have this fervent desire &

pretty clear plan on how we can effect the "Mousollini Solution" to the entire gang of WAR CRIMINALS currently in control of OUR government! I'm good with a hammer, have plenty of rope...

[AtomicKitten]

63. It starts out with building an ark ...

and putting all the Republicans on it and casting it out to sea. Then they won't have to worry about the "illegals."

[TheFriedPiper]

70. It's extremely simple

Fine the businesses that hire them.

Create an employee eligibility verification system (EEVS) using computers and the internet. Require ALL W2 employees to be checked for eligibility before receiving the first paycheck. This keeps the burden of verification off of the small businesses and removes the question of prior knowledge of ineligibility for purposes of prosecution.

ZERO TOLERANCE for businesses that hire illegal workers. Out-of-business sized fines should be levied and personal jail time required for those that direct the hiring of said illegals.

We won't have to 'round up' anyone. Most will leave when they can't find work.

If you dry up the pond, the thirsty will not come here for a drink.

So simple, even a republican can get it.

[APPLE314]

71. CUT WAGES IN HALF

SEND THE MONEY SAVED TO STATES TO PAY FOR UNFUNDED PROGRAMS. IF THAT DON'T WORK THEN CUT THEM IN HALF AGAIN. KEEP CUTTING WAGES UNTIL THE PROBLEM IS SOLVED.