Please help with a reply to this horrible email

[Maraya1969]

I just received and email using the meeting between Cindy Sheehan and Hugo Shavez(http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10704025/) that includes the link AND thepicture of the two BUT assumes no one will actually READ it so they say at the end to "ENCOURAGE people to not buy CITGO oil because:

"The Venezuela government, run by dictator Chavez, is the sole owner of Citgo gas company. Sales of products at Citgo stations send money back to Chavez to help him in his vow to bring down our government.

Take Action

Please decide that you will not be shopping at a Citgo station. Why should U.S. citizens who love freedom be financing a dictator who has vowed to take down our government?

Very important. Please forward this to your friends and family. Most of them don't know that Citgo is owned by the Venezuela government.

I need a response. More and more of these stupid but convincing to some idiots are going to come out as the November elections draw near.

We need a forum when we can identify them and post a rebuttal so people can "REPLY TO ALL'

[RebelOne]

1. Well, I took action. I filled up with Citgo this morning.

[mrgorth]

14. Filled up this morning.

[fknobbit]

18. This letter has made the rounds

This letter has made the rounds and is mostly sent out by Preachers begging for money to fight Family values destroyers. Christian broadcaster Pat Robertson suggested to viewers that the U.S. should assassinate Chavez.) Snopes covers it pretty well.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/saudigas.asp
http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/citgo.asp

[Dogmudgeon]

2. First of all, he's not the "sole owner".

It's a nationalized oil company, but there is extensive private investment in it as well, AFAIK.

Second, Chavez isn't a big dictator. He has done a few dictatorial things, but there is no widespread oppression in Venezuela, and prison sentences for political activism are typically brief and related to violating non-dictatorial laws, the kinds of which we have in the USA, too. (You know, the "Free-Speech Zones" and similar b.s.) This does NOT excuse the behavior of Chavez and his team when they act this way, but it illustrates that his dictatorship is mainly the figment of the wingnut imagination.

And if the USA still commanded the international respect it had under Clinton, or even Reagan, a few conversations with Chavez would straighten this problem out (without threats or bluff), too. Heck, most of Chavez' questionable actions were related specifically to Bush's "black ops" intended to destabilize Venezuela and trigger an anti-Chavez coup.

There are many people here who know much more about Sr. Chavez and his country than I do. I think there's even a Venezuelan national or two who post here.

I also agree with the usefulness of a "Reply To All" forum. We shouldn't be anguishing over these things -- they provide golden opportunities for us to meet truthiness with truth. Even ten good DU replies to a wingnut chain letter would provide a tremendous blow against the neo-con culture vultures.

--p!

[1932]

24. Actually, Citgo is owned by PDVSA, the national oil company in Ven.

Citgo is an American company, HQ'd in Texas. They sell no stock on public markets and bought back their last bonds recently.

Also, I don't think Chavez has done anything dictatorial. They have a constitution that they follow. The congress has a lot of power and the supreme court is always declaring laws they pass unconstitutional, just like every other democracy.

[Dogmudgeon]

26. Thanks for the info and clarification

I had been under the impression that foreign investment was permitted in CITGO, PDVSA, or some associated company, but was strictly limited and regulated.

I also read that during the anti-Chavez coup attempt, he shut down opposition parties, newspapers, and arrested hundreds of people, although for brief periods. Not something we'd "approve" of, but admittedly, it wasn't at all like kristalnacht, and there was a full-on engineered coup being fomented by The Company (yes, that Company).

Hmm ... I will have to update my reading on Venezuela. Especially since they are part of the Axis of Countries Who've Got OUR Oil Under THEIR Land.

--p!

[1932]

27. Actually, during the coup, the private media shut down the one gov't

station.

So you have that backwards.

As for arresting people, the joke about the coup is that almost none of the coup leaders got arrested and most of them walk free today (mostly in Florida). So you got that backwards too.

[Dogmudgeon]

34. In a strange kind of way, I'm glad to be wrong

Normally, I find that my worst suspicions aren't nearly as bad as reality. With Hugo Chavez, it appears that the MSM disinfo went into my brain whole.

I've always been a sucker for that Mighty Wurlitzer sound. That's what I get for not listening more closely.

Anyway, thanks again for the straight dope on the matter. It's off to the library for me.

--p!

[mikehiggins]

3. What an Orwellian world we live in

Chavez, democratically elected and survivor of a coup attempt by US backed interests, is a dictator.

Bush, essentially selected by the Supreme Court, is a democratic leader.

Do words have any meaning anymore?

[rock]

12. Yeah, we appear to be calling a lot of tails, legs

Not mentioning any pResidents... er.. names.

[HeeBGBz]

4. I noticed Leno called Chavez a dictator last night on the Tonight show

Noticed that in the email too. Chavez was elected, right?

[Maraya1969]

7. He was elected.

Chávez used a charismatic public speaking style — noted for its aggressive manner and abundance of colloquialisms — to woo a largely poor and working class base. By May 1998, Chávez had a 30% approval rating in polls; by August he had 39%. On December 6, 1998, Chávez won the Carter Center-endorsed 1998 presidential election with 56.2% of the vote.<14><3>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Chavez#Presidency_.281999.E2.80.93present.29

[Maraya1969]

5. Did Chavez actually give money to victims of Katrina? I know he

said he would but I want to be sure and I keep pulling up his speech at the UN.

[Oversea Visitor]

6. Dont waste time

Just ignore

[Maraya1969]

10. We Can't just ignore. This is how the far right fanatics were won over

Bullshit and more bullshit and they believed it all. They started years ago with mass postal mail.

[ChiciB1]

21. I Agree.. I Just Posted My Reply Below....

I used to ignore it too, but no longer! I'm not going to be so nice this time around!

[noamnety]

8. snopes has a page on a closely related email

recommended passages for a reply:

"Venezuela is a democracy — despite the best efforts of the Bush team to use President Hugo Chavez's close relations with Cuba's Fidel Castro as evidence to the contrary. Its elections are transparent and have been certified by observers from the Organization of American States, the Carter Center and the European Union. Freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly and of association prevail, at least as compared with the rest of the hemisphere."


"From a Latin American point of view, Venezuelans should have the right to choose their own president — even one who sometimes insults the American president — without interference from the United States. And Chavez's anger at Washington, from Latin Americans' point of view, appears justified. U.S. government documents released under our Freedom of Information Act indicate that Washington not only supported but was involved in the military coup that temporarily overthrew Venezuela's elected government in April 2002."

"Advocating a boycott of gasoline marketed by Citgo Petroleum Corporation (which has been owned by Petróleos de Venezuela, the national oil company of Venezuela, since 1990) over political issues is problematic for a number of reasons (not least of which is the notion that threatening not to buy gasoline from someone who is threatening not to sell it to you doesn't sound like an effective ploy for either side). For one thing, although Citgo may be owned by Petróleos de Venezuela, it is a formerly American company which is still headquartered in the U.S. (in Houston, Texas), employs 4,000 people, and supplies 14,000 independent retailers with gasoline and other petroleum products — Americans with no substantive connnection to Venezuela who would be economically harmed by such an action. And, of course, as long as the global demand for oil exceeds supply, Citgo's products will continue to find buyers whether or not they're purchased by Americans. "

This part isn't necessarily useful for the reply, but interesting in that without knowing the context, it looks mighty similar to the situation in our own country:

"hen it comes to accountability and limits on presidential power, the picture grows dark. has achieved absolute power over all state institutions that might check his power. He controls the legislature, the Supreme Court, two armed forces, the gigantic state-owned oil company PDVSA — the only important source of state revenue, which comes in handy at election time — and the institution that monitors electoral rules. As if that weren't enough, a new media law allows the state to supervise media content, and a revised criminal code permits the state to imprison any citizen for showing "disrespect" toward government officials. "

full story: http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/citgo.asp

[Maraya1969]

23. Thanks so much. I used parts of everyone's posts. I also think

in a few months - maybe late August or September I am going to send around that list of Republicans and their molestations. I get this stupid email before the 2004 election that stated how people needed to be reminded of Ted Kennedy and Chappaquiddick and how one of the Kennedy cousins was "credibly accused of rape"

They have NOTHING.

[Zorra]

9. Every other oil company finances the Bu*h fascist dictatorship.

That's why I buy Citgo at every opportunity.

[frankly_fedup2]

11. Take down OUR government? Who the Hell does he think he is . . .

Dick Cheney? :rofl:

No matter whether we agree with the agenda's of the politicians that have the power in OUR government, and no matter how much we disagree with them and their actions, and no matter how heated the debates are in this country, no foreign government will ever bring down the U.S. Government because the people are the government.

Chavez is a Castro wannabe and he mouths off like he could bring the U.S. flat on it's face if he stopped the oil from coming to this country. Well, as far as I'm concerned, he can keep his oil and let it rot and not get any profit for it. When the other corrupt politicians by Chavez's side don't continue to get their graft money, if I were Victor Chavez, I would watch my back as well as my neck. All these people know is corruption in their government because they have NEVER had a non-corrupt government.

We have had and still do have corruption in our government and what have we done? We have used our right to protest, we have used our rights as voters and hope to remove those we feel have not served this country well, and we continue to try to use free speech to change our country for the better. Then there are individuals like Cindy Sheehan, the mother of a dead soldier, just wanting one question answered . . . and that appears to be too much for the current government.

It's true, this country is divided almost evenly. We have seen over the past six years a government who continues to allow the rich to get richer, the poor to get poorer, and they have totally put all of the burdens on the middle class. The majority of us now feel there are parts of the Bush Regime that are corrupt, and they are named over and over, but somehow they continue to be supported by the Religious Right mostly. Bush is hated by a lot of ppl in this country; however, no foreign army or government will ever bring down the government of the U.S. I have no doubt of this because the citizens of this country may be divided politically, but this is OUR country and, therefore, OUR government, and if anyone even thinks they want to take on the American People they will see how quickly we will join together to fight over that one little document. The Constitution of the U.S. has served this country well over the past 100+ years and no one, whether it be someone in our own government, or it be some foreign dictator who thinks he has the power, will find out that the people of this country will not lay down for anyone to just walk in and take down our government

[MH1]

13. Who's Victor Chavez? nt

[0007]

17. Mum's the word

[NoPasaran]

28. Didn't he write

Los Miserablos?
:shrug:

[frankly_fedup2]

32. No but he wanted to star in it!

[frankly_fedup2]

31. I thought everyone knew this . . .

He is Hugo's evil twin.

[tkmorris]

15. Holy Guano Batman!

I don't even know how to respond to this diatribe. There's bigotry, there's blatant racism, there's uninformed Nationalism.

You know what? I think I'll just let most of it go. However, the comment about corrupt governments being all they know there in Venezuela, that one really stands out. You know who propped up and in fact brought most of those corrupt leaders to power don't you? That's right, the very same United States you seem to feel is somehow superior to everyone else.

Frankly you sound like an ancient Roman near the end of empire. You can proclaim your superiority all you like but if you do not recognize the rot that exists within your hubris will be your downfall.

[frankly_fedup2]

30. Bigotry? Racism? Obviously my "diatribe" was misinterpreted by

you and others as that is not what I meant at all. The others before you were funny but they made their point. You; however, feel you have to be really judgmental, misinterpreting someone's opinion, and then damning them for having one. Now I know what it's really liked to be flamed.

Oh please do share one of the ancient Roman's comments that were so similar to mine near the end of their empire; however, specify which empire though. There were two periods of the Roman Empire and they both fell.

Superiority? I didn't mean it to be superiority but more like, oh that I'm glad I'm an American, Patriotism, greatest Country in the World, yada, yada, yada. I may hate B*** and this administration and everything they stand for; however, I didn't know it was not PC to still be proud of your country . . . my bad!

Also, if you don't like what someone posts, why do you read it? And why do you read it all if it upsets you so and your not really planning on giving a full opinion. Like you were saving your full attack and weren't going to really GIVE IT TO ME.

Opinions are like a**holes . . . everybody's got one . . . just some assholes don't know their assholes. . . they think their s*** doesn't stink when, in fact, it not only stinks . . . it's full of it.

[shenmue]

16. "Stop it, crazy-pants..."

"Chavez was elected, and he is not trying to bring down our government.

Your Risperdal ought to take effect any minute now."

[mntleo2]

19. Filled Up On Citco Yesterday Myself

...and you know what I found out? Not only was the gas cheaper, they did not do what Arco does, which is to charge you another $.50 fee to use your debit card! When I did the math after paying the fee at Arco for $10.00 of its "cheaper" gas, I realized this means that gas at Arco is actually costing me .05 more per gallon. So, even if Citco is up to .05 cents a gallon more, I am actually paying the same or more at Arco. But yesterday, Citco was actually a penny less per gallon, so I "saved" money in both ways because they do not charge a fee for using my debit card.

Since I am a low income single mom, I often have to do the math (excruciating math, lol) in order to save money.

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[ChiciB1]

20. I Got The Same Email & Checked It Out At Snopes!

While there is a picture of Chavez and Sheehan together, the dates are different and some of the facts aren't exactly as stated. I just replied to my emailer by saying the same. I told her to look it up on Snopes. I have actually gotten this one 2 times.

Repukes are digging and digging for any and all dirt they can and this is what they are doing. I generally just ignore email like this, but decided that I would reply this time. I have also decided that when I get more of the same that I WILL reply again, just to show that I'm not going to let them "roll" me.

I know those on my email list who don't agree with me politically and I don't send them offensive email even though they have sent many to me. I've finally decided that "no more Mrs. Nice Girl" so we'll see how they like it.

[zbdent]

22. "Thank you for opening up your mouth (so to speak)

and confirming my suspicions . . ."

That ought to confuse 'em for a while . . .

[diamondsndust]

25. This was my reply when I got the same email...

doug <[e-mail]> wrote:

Just thought I would pass along a little TRUTH, since Republicans don't know what it is unless it smacks them, then they still aren't sure. This was taken directly from the Associated Press:

"Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, whose country is a major world oil producer, has broadened his influence with generous oil deals to countries across Latin America and the Caribbean. The program has also extended to the United States where the leftist leader has shipped cheaper heating oil to low-income people in New York and Massachusetts via its company Citgo Petroleum Corp."

Please have ALL of your facts straight before sending bulls**t Repug propaganda and talking points that are only half truths, if any truth at all. Are you aware of the fact that this half-wit jackass in the Whitehouse stated on National T.V. on Monday, March 20 that "No one ever said that Iraq was involved with the 9-11 attacks"?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

When will the LIES and the Culture of Corruption end? Take this as a warning to all the "sheeple" in this country: You NEED to quit just grazing along, going with the flow, and lift your heads up to take a look at whats REALLY HAPPENING around you and where you are headed before you graze yourself right off a cliff.

The bold part was a quote from somewhere, Snopes, I think, can't remember right offhand...

[guidod]

29. Chavez is not a dictator.

He's an elected official by the people of Venezuela. All we hear about him is what the right wing media wants us to hear. He helped the people in New Orleans after Katrina, so my view of him is obviouslly different than yours. But, he's not a dictator.

[FormerDittoHead]

33. Here's a tip about these emails: THEY'RE ***ALWAYS*** LIES... n/t