Illegal immigrants...opinion

[RedTail Wolf]

In my humble opinion this issue is not a Democrat or Republican issue. This is an American legal issue. I think Dems will find themselves in hot water if they continue to support illegals. This is one of those issues that we need to act like americans not party's. My opinion is that the flow must be cut off. The Mexican govt. must accept responsibility for the welfare of their own people. If a person wants to come here legally I have no problem with that, but to give any form of amnesty to illegals gals me. As a descendant of a Native american family we understand being screwed by the govt. theses new breed of illegals seem to think they are owed citizenship and don't have to do anything to gain it. I am a liberal person but enough is enough. I worry that this will be the issue that Dems use to shoot themselves in th foot and loose again. Enforce the borders then we can deal with the millions of illegals. Just my thoughts on the issue and a deep desire for Democrats to win. PLEASE don't loose elections over this issue! I embrace legal immigrants, it makes us who we are, but these people want everything handed to them on a platter with no effort on their part. Enforce the laws and stop the flood from the southern border! My relatives are in construction and these immigrants that are illegally here take the jobs and are paid under the table for dollars an hour less, it's not fair for lower middle class workers. What do you think?

[babylonsister]

1. A couple of thoughts for you, my friend. Who the hell have you

been listening to? You claim you're an immigrant but make this statement?

"You are not any kinbut to give any form of amnesty to illegals gals me. As a descendant of a Native american family we understand being screwed by the govt. theses new breed of illegals seem to think they are owed citizenship and don't have to do anything to gain it. I am a liberal person but enough is enough. I worry that this will be the issue that Dems use to shoot themselves in th foot and loose again. Enforce the bordersd of Dem that I know.

I'm so glad you're worried about What liberals and Dems might do/feel. And I'm really series! $3

[RedTail Wolf]

2. Never claimed to be an immigrant. Native American

Don't get your post at all? Oh well

[babylonsister]

3. Honey, it's your post. Read it again, and get back to me. nt

[Vincardog]

4. Red you are right. The Illegals are not due any support from liberals.

They are pawns of the low wage conservatives. They do nothing but depress wages for working US citizens and undercut the power of the middle class. T%he reason they are getting press is that they work to further the low wage Conservatives agenda. The Farm Workers Union is against Illegal workers too.

[babylonsister]

10. It has nothing to do with being 'pawns' as far as I'm concerned.

I've lived in TX longer than my home state, and it's never been a problem, til suddenly! Why is that?

[NativeTexan]

84. Sister...I have lived here over 50 years myself.....

....and it HAS been a problem. I don't know if it amounts to monumental problems, but there have been problems.

First, the State decides that since they are here, lets put there kids in public schools to keep them off the streets (a quote from a past State Senator to me). And THEN require minimal levels of bilingual teachers to teach them!!

Second, they can get public assistance on so many levels.

And there are others. Texans PAY for this. Have you ever tried to get a work permit in Canada? And we have open borders there too. You have to jump thru so many hoops, and they keep tabs.

Sis, I have, over the years, met some of the "illegals", when I owned a small neighborhood grocery back in the 80's, that I learned to communicate with, that today, legal and productive, have done quite well for themselves, and will all but tackle me or my family anytime they see us, so that they can say hello!

I am not a hardcore on this. But the situation HAS caused problems, and for many years. Don't pretend to know what the answer is, because I sure don't want to split up families by deporting those that are illegal.

But the COST of this situation is HIGH and is one contributing factor in our school financing.....of course the BIGGEST problem with school financing is REPUBLICAN CONTROL OF THE STATE, and there DO NOTHING way of doing nothing!!

Just an opinion that no one asked for.....

[Bridget Burke]

88. Why is immigration suddenly THE CRISIS?

You do point out that the Republicans are the major cause of education problems. Could it be that immigrants are being blamed for other problems in order to protect Bush & Co?

I've lived in or near Houston for 50 years.

[NativeTexan]

90. In some instances maybe...but keep in mind....immigrants.....

....have always been welcome. Illegal immigrants, whether Mexican or otherwise, should not be. BUT, I would also include CUBANS and THEY get EXTREME PREFERENCIAL TREATMENT OVER ALL ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS by BOTH parties!!

But Republicans are the problem in financing schools, yes....no doubt. But when we are having to pay for kids, whose parents aren't paying taxes, to go to school, then have to pay for bilingual teachers and add to that the burden on the state healthcare system, it just compounds the problem. It isn't a new problem. The immigration problem, to me, is a crisis of sorts NOW, not because of Mexicans, but because of Arabs and others who would do us harm, that are able to use the broken border system that the Mexicans have created, to sneak in....find their hidden "cell"...get their financing, and forged documents, and start learning things like flying jumbo jets without caring about how to land them. If our borders aren't safe, at this time in history, then there is NO stopping terrorists that are determined. Even with safe borders it is a huge job. But without them........and so little is being put into the Washington argument about this!

[Bridget Burke]

93. Which of the 9/11 terrorists swam the Rio Grande?

Last time an FBI agent was concerned about an "Arab" learning to fly--but not to land--the higher ups ignored him. For those of us worried about National Security, DC is a worse threat than the Border.

About school financing--isn't that done mostly through property tax? Even renters pay that, indirectly. And we've got State & Local Sales Tax here--which everybody pays. Last time I checked, there was not Texas Income Tax. As long as we can blame the state of Texas Schools on anybody other than the Republicans, Governor Goodhair is happy.

[NativeTexan]

96. They didn't have to......now it is the easiest way, but.....

.... either way, why HAVE borders, if we don't care about protecting them, or who comes in?

And school financing IS done by property taxes. And renters DO pay indirectly. But you overlook that most "illegals" don't rent. In my neighborhood alone, there are at least 5 houses, that are housing at least 8 to 10 grownups PLUS the kids.....how many "rents" do you think is paid on those properties. Most can't pay full rent, so they share it among more than most housing codes would allow. Do I turn them in? No. I understand what they are doing and why. I really do have compassion for them and their attempt to better themselves. But it doesn't make it right or legal. AND the Mexican government isn't trying to help.....they just want to get them out of THEIR hair, so that they can send money back to the families, since they can't handle their own problems.

[sam sarrha]

103. 10% of mexico has migrated to the USA, it is a planed invasion by FOX

to raise the standard of living in mexico. the standard of living for the 'Have it alls' is second only to frace.

the largest growth industry in mexico is the billions of dollars the migrants send gome to mexico.

Fox advertizes on tv to go illegally to the US and send money home.

it what was sent to mexico was forign aid, Bu$h would be impeached by by his own party

[0007]

97. cough cough - 'Tis big problem

[Little Star]

56. .

[BooScout]

47. Sweetie.......I read the post 3 times.......and I don't see that.

Point it out please.

[revgerry]

5. Let's talk NAFTA

Of course we must secure the border, it's a question of how, and when. I understand about wages being driven down, it's a question how to stabilize them.

After signing NAFTA, US government supported corn and other crops flooded the Latin American markets at less than a farmer could grow it for, and forced so many off the land - much to the delight of wealth Latin America, BTW. You can't take away peoples livelihood and put it in US banks and not expect the workers to follow, especially when there is a lottery for 50,000 people a year to become citizens, and Mexicans are specifically excluded. Without a legal path to citizenship, the only winners are corporations who take advantage of "slave labor," and discard workers who expect a living wage. Without enforceable worker protections on both sides of the border, the only winners are the corporations.

I think we need to invest in a Marshall Plan if we really want to solve this problem, as they did in Europe for their poorer trading partners, and negotiate and enforce fair labor standards everywhere. It would also help keep jobs in the US, if workers elsewhere had to be paid fairly, especially if we placed a tariff on US business opening facilities in other countries. And it would have to be designed such that corrupt governments (and yes, I include ours) and corporate cronies would not be the beneficiaries, but the people.

Someone said in a post I read recently that the law changes - slavery was once the law, and corporations didn't use to be persons - and to be honest, torture and pre-emptive war aren't legal, Bush has broken 750 laws I read somewhere, and the government spies on us without a warrant. So since when did "legal" become so important, and "fair" fall into disuse? It would be fair that people registered when they came into the US, so we gain control of the border, and we helped create opportunity in their home country.

And then, it is not such a bad thing to have millions of new workers to help pay into Social Security as our population greys...

[babylonsister]

11. Hey, revgerry, you could have many supporters here

but I've never heard of or about you! Welcome to DU, and may you prosper in your attempts!
An earlier venue might work better on DU also! :hi: And this 'can' be a tough crowd.

[lvx35]

23. BIG welcome!

and great points, especially regarding the Marshall Plan/fair labor standards, that is the absolute heart of this issue. There is no question that hard working immigrants can be of great benifit, the question is to whom. If we can it to be to them and us, than we will win.

[Mythsaje]

32. Welcome to DU...

Very nice first post. I don't see anything in your post I'd argue against. I have no problem with encouraging or even streamlining the LEGAL immigration, and investing in improving the economies of these other countries (assuming it doesn't just feed the rich), but I DO have a problem with those who think the answer to the problem is just to throw the door wide open. SO not sure how that'll help.

[Kolesar]

43. Welcome to our forum, Revgerry!

:hi:

[rman]

70. Yes, let's expose so-called "Free Trade" for the scam that it is

We can use some help there.

[sam sarrha]

104. NAFTA has sucked 26,000,000 jobs out of the US.. created NONE

[RedTail Wolf]

112. Apologies to the DU

Sorry I got sucked in to some name calling,and bad taste, but I will defend my region of the country and my own integrity when attacked. I have to do it however, within the rules. I am sorry to the DU for having to waste time deleting some of my posts. I feel strongly about the issue as I am in a very multi cultural family that include Latinos and Latinas, African Americans, Whites, Native American's and some various mixtures of some. No one in my family supports amnesty for illegals. I don't want to crank it up again but,,,,, come here legally, learn the language , assimilate, and earn citizenship, what is so wrong with that? All I'll say on the subject anymore other than I think as I started this thread that if Dems don't get on the correct side of this issue it could be devastating. May the Great Spirit Bless you all, RedTail Wolf

[RagingInMiami]

113. One of the best posts I've seen on this subject

Welcome to DU

[lvx35]

6. Yeah, there's always the union side...But the bigger issue is the felony

thing. Its ridiculous to give felonies fo somebody who hires a mexican nanny, for instance. The penalty for that shouldn't be in the same class as murder, but that's what the congressional wingers propose. So that is something I think we should oppose. But as far as a labor goes, yeah, I agree. No way should companies be permitted to engange in unlawful hiring practices that allow them to disobey ALL workers rights, including minimum wage. I think the solution does have to come from something like a guest worker program, and latino immigrants being willing to stand up and organize for their rights.

[Igel]

51. There's a range of felonies.

I think the main purpose was to prevent re-immigration or later naturalization. This I agree with, increasingly so. The current system incompetently provides for punishing employers; but not all immigrants immigrate for work, at least not for immediate work, and allowing a pool of immigrants to collect makes it tempting for employers to skirt the already hardly enforceable law. The immigrants aren't victims, if they perceived themselves victimized they'd stop coming. Punish employers for hiring them illegally, but punish those here illegally for being here illegally.

First, I'd make it possible for the laws against employers to be enforced. Employers must be able to validate the identification provided by employees when they're hired, and ascertain immigrant employees' status; currently this is impossible. Then require that the SSA inform employers of bad SSNs, or SSNs where the employee is working for more than two employers over 60 hours a week. The employer must reply with the next filing of required paperwork: correct the SSN, or provide some evidence that "John Doe" really isn't "Bart Doolittle". If the info isn't provided, then SSN forwards the info to INS or some agency for further investigation. This is currently illegal.

I'd create a special class of misdemeanor, it's sole provision is mandatory deportation and permanent revocation of any privilege of filing for a US visa, residency, or citizenship. It'll require that Congress have balls, since Congress could always wuss out and revoke the revocation, of course. The 'crime' is either failing to show at an immigration court hearing without due cause or being again found in the US illegally after having been deported after the law took effect. Currently there's little penalty: you return and return; you skip your hearings, and if you're caught, you're deported and you return.

I'd have a second misdemeanor with similar penalties for those that house or provide at least 50% of the financial support for the illegal immigrant. The first time, his/her 'head of household' is notified that s/he was harboring an illegal immigrant, with the law cited; it's a warning. Then, if the illegal immigrant is found here a second time, illegally, and sheltered/supported by the same person, the penalty kicks in: $2k fine, if a citizen; suspension of any visa/greencard and any paperwork for residency or citizenship, if a non-citizen.

This raises the stakes on illegal immigration. Right now the penalty is far too low and the potential rewards too high.

[Critters2]

65. Okay, a bit off topic, but I've been wondering this...

Why would ANYONE hire an illegal immigrant as a nanny? I mean, I'm assuming we're NOT talking about illegal immigrants with degrees in early childhood education, but rather the cheapest employee one can find...to take care of kids?! I can see cheap labor in meatpacking plants, in vegetable fields, as busboys. I don't like it, but I understand it. But why would any responsible parent look for the cheapest, and therefore the least qualified person to care for children? What's more valuable than one's children, yet people turn them over to the lowest bidder? I treat my dog better than this.

I find this appalling. Really.

Okay, back to the main topic...

[RagingInMiami]

114. Most nannies in this country are probably illegal

And they might not all be Mexican. Young European women have long been coming to the US as nannies.

[formernaderite]

118. nope...we have a long standing au pair program

that allows nannies from every part of the world to come in under the guise of educational/cultural exchange. The companies who run these agencies have special permission from the state department. I suspect someone hiring a non-doc worker, is doing so for several reasons. The childgiver has their own home and does not have to live with them, they also save the initial fee the au pair agencies charge, along with not having to pay the plane fare etc. An agency au pair can only stay for one year...if you want a long term relationship for your child, you might decide to use someone who can stick around.

[RagingInMiami]

119. Just what I thought

It's always easier for a European to live in this country LEGALLY than it is for a Mexican.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

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[RedTail Wolf]

12. Uneducated, not sane, racist, YOU ARE WRONG!

I am an Amercan first and don't identify with peple because of their skin color. I find your post offensive to Southerners and it shows your ignorance of this area. I have marched for civil rights for all legal citizens of this country. I choose no ethnic group over another, I choose rule of law over illegality on this issue! Your point about employers is about the only intelligent remark you made!

[Name removed]

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[Lexingtonian]

18. Gee, thank you.

But you illustrate my points exactly. You haven't a clue about legal immigration, obviously, to piously believe that our present government has a policy that is 'rule of law', enforced in a way consistent with the actual Constitution, or worthy of your faith in it.

Oh, and you've sure beaten the crap out of a strawman argument, insinuated bigotry on my part, and not actually responded to my points. Those are the three things I consistently see Southern men do when they are in the wrong.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

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[shamrock]

31. Hi RedTail Wolf

Thank-you. You and your family give me hope for our country.

[RedTail Wolf]

34. Thank you shamrock!

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

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[Lexingtonian]

38. It's true

that life is a lot better without constant indulging oneself in hatred and invective.

I did forget to mention that I do appreciate what you do for the good. Thanks and good luck.

[Little Star]

57. Good to hear from people who actually have this

issue effect them and theirs. Thanks for posting. Also I agree with everything you have said and will defend your right to say it. :hi:

[Lexingtonian]

99. thanks

:hi:

[RedTail Wolf]

8. Born in USA descendant from Native Americans

Great Grandparents Cherokee, other side Creek, I am certainly no immigrant..... My family are the original RedTail Wolf is not an immigrant name. I re read the post and still don't see your point? Maybe it's late and I am missing something?

[babylonsister]

13. Your comment,

"I think Dems will find themselves in hot water if they continue to support ilegals" flies in the face of what I believe. Why do you believe that?

[lvx35]

16. he's talking about support for illegal immigrants

such as those who marched on may 1st. To varying degrees these immigrants, legal and otherwise, were shown support by both Democrats and Republicans.

[babylonsister]

17. I know what 'he's' talking about, but his reasoning isn't mine. nt

[lvx35]

19. fair nuff :) nt

[RedTail Wolf]

22. We should as Americans

enforce the immigration laws equally for all people. Simple. When a party goes against the rule of law concerning legal citizens I think they do it at their own peril. Illegals work for less money, are paid under the table, and illegal employers exploit them at the expense of lower middle class US citizens.So we have people being exploited for corporate greed and millions of people with no identity. I think bi-lingual schools are insane. We are a nation of English speaking people in public discourse. Learn the language. My ancestors were forced to! Most of the immigrants who are here legally learn English. There are those in this "illegal fight" who do not want to assimilate into our society. Why are they here then? Seems logical to me to oppose any acton that would give amnesty to people here illegally, and would make those who come here legally feel less proud of what they have done LEGALLY! I believe in human rights everywhere, but I also believe in the rule of law. When you come here illegally you are a criminal and should be treated as such. Now the problem has been ignored for so long maybe compromises need to be meet for those already here , but first stop the flow of illegals, then deal with those workers who are being exploited by right wing corporations and driving down middle class wages with tough new laws. I merely think that the majority of Americans are of like mind and I don't want to see the Democrats be on the wrong side of this issue. Simple point.

[lvx35]

24. Totally.

This is about selling out the welfare of the American people for large corporations to increase profits to individuals. Period.

[RagingInMiami]

115. With or without illegal immigrants

The welfare of the American people will always be sold out to corporations. It's not like everybody is suddenly going to be earning higher wages if the immigrants suddenly get deported.

[babylonsister]

26. Slam the huge companies that hire illegals, but don't punish

the people who have wives and kids here for decades. Not amnesty for all, but surely amnesty for some. And this worker program isn't going to fly imo.
Also, forget about that big-ass wall around MX. Bad idea.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

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[RedTail Wolf]

35. Hate NAFTA, HATE Bush

Bi lingual laws need changing, Bush has enforced the immigration laws far less than Clinton did. I have stated, deportation is not an option, CLOSE the Borders then we'll deal with illegals, if you'd read about my family as far as going "home" I am Home my friend. Not a racist bone in my body. I do not loathe anyone. I just want a solution to the problem. You read your own feelings into this as have others, my family is AMERICA.. people! We are of so many mixed origins we can hardly count them. This is a working man's issue, a security issue, and should be handled in that way. My main point in starting this thread was to voice concern that Democrats may be on the wrong side of this issue. I can not take another Republican Congress or President. I'm at my wits end, I am not a racist nor a bigot, I do not judge people on race, religion, or sexual orientation. I just want secure borders and a fair shake for legal immigrants. To that end I posted this to spark an intelligent discussion but it seems impossible. People's personal opinions... as in Washington I fear will stop anything from happening to better the situation. I wont defend myself anymore. I do more for working people and Democrats in a very Red State in the Reddest County in that state so I know who I am and what I believe. I oppose illegal immigration and insecure borders and the inequality of all people. But I do not support amnesty! Do it legally and you will be embraced by the most diverse culture in the world and the brightest hope for all mankind, if we can get good leaders again! I'm done

[Starbucks Anarchist]

42. Ignore the people who call you a racist.

It's an intellectually dishonest argument and, frankly, insulting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. There is an element of it

whether you like it or not, and it is in the opening statement

In fact, racism is part of the problem... it does have a name, it is called miscegination, look it up... and it has been with us since oh... 1848

The other problem is, as I stated, the logistics of closing the border, ro deporting 12 million people are not there.

Oh and I am surprised an Immigration lawyer has not dug out NAFTA, it would change the debate so fast, it will make your head spin

[Starbucks Anarchist]

60. I reread the OP -- nothing about miscegenation, not even implied.

And I don't think deportation is the way to go, either.

[azurnoir]

28. I ask a different way

Most Mexicans are also Native American the difference in language is more related to who the conquerers were. There are a number of tribes who's people live on both sides of the Rio Grande.RedTail Wolf may be a Native name but it is an english translation of a Cherokee or Creek name. I guess why nationalism over Native Unity? And why fall for the repuke game? To me it seems they have found (once again) nothing unites like a common enemy Hitler/Jews GOP/Mexicans?

[Broken_Hero]

61. Good point...:) n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

72. In the northwest

The people most affected by unrestricted immigration and illicit hiring have been the native americans. The natural resources based industries in this area have been entirely taken over by firms which hire under the table.

If I click my heels together three times, I'd wish for supporters of illegal immigration to get through one post without calling everyone else racists. It's getting old.

[catnhatnh]

9. I think that outsourcing does the same....

...but for the jobs we lost in New England we have no "hot button" to push...when people buy shirts in Walmart produced in textile factories on the Pacific rim the workers never wave the Malaysian flag in Amhearst...No one complains about the small industries and machine shops lost here...they are spread across the planet without a single proxy to complain against...but I remember this well...a ribbon factory in New Hampshire...a small three story factory,it laid hard by a hydro-site that was it's original power source.The first few weeks of summer,the few dozen girls who would change the bobbins would come out and eat lunch on the banks of the river...light,musical,magical...they made a living at a 100 year old factory...when the factory burned and the jobs ended it was done.....the dam was still there and the stream was still there,but something great was gone...it will not be rebuilt,it's cheaper elsewhere...

[lvx35]

20. That's the REAL issue here.

When I see these immigrants organized and marching, I see a new wave of potential members of AFL-CIO and Teamsters, fighting for their rights as workers with us. But the outsourcing is completely beyond our control...Unlike the immigrants we can't organize with them and work with them.

[Erika]

14. These people want everything handed to them on a platter?

You must not know the ones I know. They are hard working and family oriented. They want a better life and are willing to do hard work for it.

The big concern is that the good paying jobs are leaving the country. Evidently American companies know no patriotism for American workers or they wouldn't ship the good jobs out of country.

[norml]

21. I think the cons want slaves. They want to bring in even more workers...

from poorer countries, to take whatever jobs they can't ship away.

They want what they call a "guest worker" program, in order to be able to bring in even more people from poorer countries, and to be able to treat them as badly or worse than they are being treated now, but to be able to do it officially.

All this nonsense about getting tough on the border, or about getting tough on the "illegals", is just cover their selling of "guest worker" as the solution to the "illegals" problem.

Even though the right wing media clowns get hit down hard by a few of the less comatose Flavor-Aid drinkers, for pushing "guest worker", and for saying stupid insulting stuff like "These are jobs Americans won't do.", they keep on pushing, most often now by lining up the scripted shills they call "callers" to make their sales pitch for them.

I've mentioned the solution before, fines for those that employ non-citizens, or non-green card holders.

If on the other hand there's really a shortage of people in this country, a genuine shortage of workers, then make more people citizens.

Having a class of people who are either officially, or un-officially exploitable, degrades us all.

Don't blame them.

Blame those who would be masters.

"I believe this government cannot endure permanently half slave and half free."
-- Abraham Lincoln

[Erika]

25. Great post. Thanks. n/t

[MsUnderstood]

27. Sorry this is a democratic issue...and the repukes call it WEDGE

This is what happens. the republians pick a wedge issue--gay marriage, abortion, welfare, immigration and they shout from the hilltops "This issue will destroy america!"

Meanwhile in the valley behind them are real issues like illegal wars, illegal spying, congressional corrupption, and more that are being covered up.

Hey tell me this--what exactly happened in December of 2005 that made our House of Reps so upset by the flood of illegal immigration that they passed a bill making it a felony for illegals to be here? Why is that specific issue flaring up RIGHT NOW?

Not sure, let me help. . .its the newest idea to split the democrats.

Why isn't the house investigating its members for connections to Abramoff? Why isn't the house beginning impeachment proceedings on a president who refused to follow over 700 laws he signed into law? Why are we kiling Iraqis and Americans in a country thousands of miles away and trying to give up border security (cause our ports are also our borders) to a country known to fund terrorists?

Meanwhile we got our democrats who would stand next to each other to stop a war deciding that they want to make generalized xenophobic statements cause this particular issue has them up in a tizzy.

Stephanie Miller show this morning is a great example. They were blaming illegal immigrants for problems like debri on teh highway and unlicensed drivers. While some immigrants might throw debri out on the highway, and some might drive illegally this comparison is so similar to the generalized notion that gay people bring down the moral fabric of America because they can't hold down a relationship. If you think all the statements in this paragraph are true, you might be a racist.

Don't fall for the wedge issue. You should be pist off at your congress person for this stinking shell game he or she is playing with you. Immigration is not at a crisis point--the war in Iraq and the corruption in our Executive branch is!

[Mythsaje]

33. Blaming illegals for highway debris?

:rofl:

Yeah, I've never seen a redneck throw something out the window of his pickup.

Puh-leeze.

[Broken_Hero]

62. Great post, and agreed...n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

74. ... and it's working

The working class voter is being fully abandoned by the lexus liberals. It really pisses me off when hate radio is right.

If you want attention drawn to the abuses which we can gain votes with, then focus on them. It takes two to tango, and democrat illegal-immigration supporters are unwittingly dancing to Karl Rove's tune.

IMHO, the Democratic party is a big tent, but not so big that it should embrace people who would throw out working class voters.

[ComerPerro]

121. The best part is, I've heard RWers blame this on the illegals themselves

saying "The only reason people are talking about this so much is because the illegals starting protesting and demanding rights"

But no one ever mentiones that those initial protests took place in response to the Republicans trying to make being illegal a felony, like you mentioned.

The Republicans brought this up to divide and conquer.

[expatriot]

39. very quickly... this is what's at issue...

it is not whether to support illegal immigration or not. it is what immigration to make legal and what not to. it is not about "supporting criminals" it is about what to criminalize and what to decriminalize.

furthermore... this is interesting... you said...

"theses new breed of illegals seem to think they are owed citizenship and don't have to do anything to gain it." I am always interested in finding out what natural born citizens like myself did to "deserve" there citizenship.

For me, I didn't do anything. My mom pushed and the doctor pulled.

[tom_boy]

40. lowering the standards

Someone made a comparison of this situation to Unions.
The Unions were only able to negotiate when they excluded people.
Specifically, the "scabs"

That is to say, as long as someone was willing to work longer, or for worse conditions, Those people determined what the working conditions were.

Right now, the big corporations are able to make a lot of money because there is a group of people willing to work longer, harder, and for for worse conditions. As long as that situation persists, there is no leverage against the corporations for a better workplace.

The illegal immigrants are probably perfectly decent people.
The ones I have met are likeable and hard working.
But we are selling our children's future to allow them to set the standard for how the corporations treat its employees.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Then INSIST the 1986 Immigratiion Law is enforced

if employers are fined enough timse, you think it will make business sense to hire these people? THINK

[tom_boy]

59. I think that is a good start.

Now we know the Repugs aren't going to doing it.
(perhaps they are getting too much money from a compliant and non-regulated workforce?)

Who is going to make this happen?

When?

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RedTail Wolf]

44. Not racist. ...decent discourse, Is it possible without attacks?

Tired of people breaking law to enter the country while the Govt. does nothing. I know through family experience that these illegals cut wages and take jobs from hard working American citizens. Why is it if you raise a question about illegality , you are labeled a racist? this has nothing to do with race, it DOES have to do with cheap labor, corrupt employers, payment in cash, no taxes being paid. Read the entire thread. I come from a very diverse and multi cultural family. to call me racist is absurd. I see this as a problem that Bush refused to handle , the Congress refuses to address and I feel the Dems are split but seem more on the side of the illegals. We can't deport them. I do not favor felony charges. I do favor immediate control of the borders. Something close to making the people already here go to the back of the line and earn citizenship.It does a disservice to those legal immigrants who are going through the proper channels.
Jobs americans wont do. The corporate and small business greed is illegal. These poor people are being exploited for cheap labor. My immediate family is affected. they can not hire laborers at a decent wage and provide workers comp etc when the contractor down the street uses illegals paid under the table in cash and has no workman's comp.
I like all people. I believe all persons should work for a decent livable wage. Until laws are enforced this wont happen and the flood continues. I am not anti anything except un enforcement of currant laws. Illegals are here illegally, employers hire them illegally and hurt American workers.To call me a racist is absurd read the thread! This is serious problem, and it needs attention. The Repubs are all over the board on this, My point is I do not want the Dems to be on the wrong side of this. The polls show the American people want the borders closed and monitored. Only then can we deal with the illegals. This was an attempt to get opinions from you guys, but I have been attacked as a racist. Nothing is further from the truth. I want all peoples to make a living wage. Some countries need to do a better job in making that happen. NAFTA sucks and has made the problem worse. Don't have much to add other than I am a loyal American from a family that is so multi ethnic and racial, that being called a racist is insane. Civil discourse even here seems impossible. I want democrats to win, we need to be on the right side of this issue, that's all I'm saying. right now the american people do ot want amnesty. If we as a party embrace that philosophy we will loose. we need a better solution. thant's al I'm saying, let's discuss it and maybe come to a better way. I know this way does not work. Employers are exploiting and the illegals come here from corrupt governments who offer the no hope. It's got to change! Don't call me a racist again, it's really pissin me off. Solutions are needed not name calling. I have hispanics in my immediate family, African americans, whites, mixed breeds like myself Native American and white. I am a liberal ACLU member and the idea that I loathe brown people is crazy. Let's have a decent conversation not name calling. I work hard for this party and civil rights for all USA citizens. I have done so for over 35 years. Questioning my motives is insulting and frankly enrages me. I am an old Hippie, I accept everyone but this problem is real and hurts lower income, lower educated US citizens and I can't not say something about that. I welcome all LEGAL immigrants. Tired of defending myself so flame away but remember we are supposed to be on the same side. Democratic control of Congress and a Democratic President is the goal. Just hope we are on the right side of this issue and right now I don't see it. I see Dems all over the place!

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. And I told you, stop blaming the victim

the illegals are here due to policies that have been enacted at the highest levels of government.

NOT enforcing the 1986 law (That would punish corporations) is just part of it. Hell, when Walmart closed the doors on illegals overnight, not only did they break the 1986 Immigration law (aka they hired illegals, who by the by were Ukrainian), but they also failed to follow a score of state and federal law. Tell me, how badly where they fined?

THere is more... try to run on this platform, enforce the 1986 law, in the Central Valley of California... good luck.

In that sense we, yes kemosabee, WE are all victims. Why do you think the right is so hysterical about these 12 million? What happens once they get their shiny new visas and can emerge from the underground economy? I am almost willing to bet that they will join the unions, which the Right has been so assiduously trying to destroy, and has been quite effective. So they are your class allies, to use a term not usually used in the US. A little solidarity can benefit everybody... just saying ok, instead of letting the wedge work. After all they are today's Italians, or Irish, or Jews. And no I am not all for an open border policy, but before I will attack the Illegals I want the 1986 enforced, FULLY... lets see how many Wallarts can Wallmart loose. THey are a MAJOR employer of illegals, but I am sure this will NOT surprise you... but why are they not fined?

So try to look at the big picture and understand these people are here because of policies at the highest levels of government... not necessarily theirs, but it helps.

Having worked on and along side both sides of the border, and having talked to plenty of these folks... if they did not know they would get work in the Central Valley while growing up in the southern most region of Mexico, why pray tell me would they come across? What is more, many of them don't even speak Spanish, in fact they speak any of a variety of native languages. Yes, they are American in the fullest term of the word... and their traditional farms are under attack from big Pharma and agricultural concerns. Yes all of that is connected. And that is only as far as the one Mexico and Guatemala are concerned. since the Maya have had a forced migration to El Norte since oh the late 1970s (By the way, you are aware we did encourage many of the wars in Central America that led to the first push, don't you)

Then there are the immigrants from Central and eastern Europe. They come in under a tourist visa and ahem...stay. So you are going to close the border at the airports and sea pots to avoid this? Of course there is the other aspect nobody likes to talk when it comes to this traffic and it is white slavery. But I am sure you knew of it... many of these girls have come into the country to work the sex trade, not voluntarily mind you... but they are told by the pimps, who are you going to go? The cops, they'll deport you... not necessarily true... but there you have it. I just gave you a taste of how complex the issue is....

The solution is actually quite simple, get rid of the underground economy that works as a magnet. What are the chances you think our pro corporatist, cheap labor government officials will actually start fining LARGE corporations? Amazingly it does not involve closing the border... that will happen all on itself, when the message reaches the small towns, no hay mas trabajo en El Norte.

[RebelOne]

45. Well, for one, we don't loose elections,

we lose elections. Grammar Nazi here.

[Solon]

46. Depends on how you define an illegal Immigrant...

To give an example, that I just saw in Democracy Now! on FSTV, there is a Woman, named Carolina Hernandez, star student who volunteered at the local police department while in high school, got married, she has a 3 year old son, and now she is stuck in Guatamala, a country she doesn't know that well, because of one little thing she didn't even know about, she came into the country illegally while she was 4! A deportation order was issued when she was 12, and she wasn't even aware that she wasn't a CITIZEN until she and some friends were stopped at the Canadian border trying to re-enter the country. Once she found out she was an illegal, she did the right thing, and filed papers to obtain permanent residency, and perhaps citizenship, instead, she was arrested and deported. The thing that is the real kicker is that she is married to a citizen, her child is a citizen, and even her dad is a citizen. The justification for the deportation is that she broke the law, but did she?

[Minnesota Libra]

48. There was just now a caller on C-SPAN concerning this very issue..........

...where the caller (a republican) claimed she was seriously considering voting Democratic these next elections because the republicans had "done absolutely noting about our borders and the illegal alien issue". Then she went on to say that "now the Democrats are for legalizing illegal aliens and now I don't know what to do, I don't want either party in there".

[OregonBlue]

49. The Repugs have once again managed to get the upper hand on

the issue. Dems are now being tagged as supporting Illegal Immigration.

It's a wedge issue and it's going to work very well for the Pugs in November.

If we crack down on the employers, fine the hell out of them. Start actually enforcing the borders, the problem will be solved.

Thanks for the post. Watch your back though, many here won't like what you have to say. Be prepared for nasty putdowns. Not a very civil conversation around this one.

[Zorra]

50. Can't we just all agree to start fining the employers $50,000 per

undocumented worker and solve this problem once and for all?

The undocumented workers that are here will leave, and no more will come if a law like this were strictly enforced.

Simple, effective solution. Problem solved.

[Critters2]

66. No dem politician is even considering this

Neither party supports effective employer sanctions.

[martymar64]

95. Another possibility scenario. . . Direct action against employers

If some people were to approach an employer that hired illegals and said "if you continue to hire illegals, your farm/factory/ construction site/equipment/vehicles might suddenly, inexplicably burn down or you yourself might suffer an unfortunate accident" then the employer will think twice about their actions.

Of course I don't advocate extortion or threats,that would be wrong.

[goodhue]

52. I think folks who refer to others as illegal don't understand the law

First, there is an important distinction between criminal and civil offenses.
Second, with regard to criminal offenses, it is the activity that is "illegal", not the person engaged in the activity.
Third, some immigration violations have criminal sanctions, others have civil sanctions.
Crossing the border illegally is a criminal offense, but undocumented presence is a civil offense.

[Critters2]

67. Crossing the border after having been deported is a felony.

Using forged government documents is a felony. A large number of illegal immigrants have done both of these and are therefore already felons.

Once one breaks one law, err, civil offense, it become easy to violate another. Not good policy.

[Little Star]

55. This is whats in store for us........

http://www.stoptheftaa.org/default.html

As one wise DUer put it "this (ftaa) is what dictators do".

[APPLE314]

63. JOBS - YES ---- CITIZENSHIP - NO!!!!!!!

[brindis_desala]

64. It is counterproductive to think of complex problems in

simplistic ways. That is how the elite in this country keep working people divided while they enjoy unprecedented profits. Trying to curtail immigration when your country's policies have impoverished its closest neighbors is like trying to hold water in your fingers. You cannot behave like a thief and then expect the victim to respect your laws. Ask your forbears how many treaties the US government has honored in its history. Focus on the corporations that are encouraging the migration and support every workers right to join a union. If the penalties are steep enough either it will drive the businesses that use undocumented labor to either leave the country for cheaper venues or pay a decent living wage. In the final analysis there are a finite number of jobs.
The problem is getting the benefits of labor spread more equitably and therefore more efficiently. The Republicans will complain that union wages are driving away business, but that would mean the countries where they relocate would get needed new industries and allow them to buy more U.S. products. How long do think our relative prosperity could be maintained if our closest neighbors are forced to live as paupers?

[APPLE314]

68. JOBS - YES ----- CITIZENSHIP- NO

LET THEM GET IN LINE WITH ALL THE LEGAL CANDIDATES FOR CITIZENSHIP.

[Bridget Burke]

71. "Citizenship" is NOT the problem.

Getting permission to live & work in the USA is.

Back in my grandparents' day, showing up at Ellis Island with no obvious disease was the only requirement (if you were white). Work was available & education for the children. Citizenship usually followed.

Now, immigration lawyers support themselves by winning Green Cards & other papers for immigrants. Citizenship is still earned. It appears that you want 2nd class workers in the USA--able to work but NEVER to become citizens. Not very bright.

Lose the ALL CAPS.

[foreverdem]

77. Work was available?

Maybe for your grandparents it was, but the majority of Irish were greeted with "Irish Need Not Apply" signs when they were looking for work.

[Bridget Burke]

79. Yes, work was available.

I've heard about the signs, but work could be found by those who kept looking. Anyone who has left their home country to find their way in a new one is not easily discouraged.

Both my grandparents went to work in mills. Then my grandfather joined the police force.

[foreverdem]

89. Mine lived through the signs

My great great grandfather had to make fertilizer to support his family since no one would hire him. Many of his family experienced the same and lived in horrific poverty because no one would hire them. Some Irish girls turned to prostitution to bring money into their starving families. It wasn't easy for them in the least.

[concerned_texan]

69. For some, this issue exceeds party lines...

I have been a democrat all my life, born to a family of democrats in a very republican state. Out of great concern, and because I am an information junkie, I have spent the last two months educating myself on as many sides, angles and facets of the illegal immigration issue from every source that I can find.

I have lived with the effects of mass illegal immigration in Texas all my 40 years. Like Red Tail, until you are personally effected by the economics of the situation; until you live in a border state, until you live in a border county; until you live in a city with a great number of illegal aliens; until you live in a city where the Hispanic illegal alien agenda (and legal Hispanic immigrant, for that matter) is to reclaim “their land” and those individuals make it public (almost a gang mentality threatening to push with power in public);

Until you live in a city where your educational system has degraded to the point that it is no longer recognizable as an educational system because the resources and time go to teaching those who do not speak English (as well as teaching to the TAKS test) and pople drive 30+ miles one way to take their children to private school or opt to home school because the children are so behind in educational levels;

Until you walk into a store and cannot conduct business because the workers do not speak, or refuse to speak, English; until you live in a city where you cannot secure a loan because the loan portfolio is too filled with high-interest, high risk loans to illegal aliens; until one of your friends is murdered by an illegal alien, whom she had befriended, and that known illegal alien departed back across the border to evade punishment;

Until you move away from corporate mainstream media reporting and actually take the time to do research on the MeCHA, Aztlan, the Brown Berets, the la reconquista movement, which is backed (although not publicly) by La Raza; until you view the footage of Hispanics at the rallies making terroristic threats and calls to war that the media refuse to show;

Until you actually look hard at the numbers – social services, prison population for violent crimes, education, etc. – for yourself, and not just take for gospel what is being reported. The most recent was April’s employment gain for Hispanics at +91,000 (+.47%) while employment losses were experienced by Blacks -28,000 (-0.18 percent) and Non-Hispanic -44,000 (-0.04 percent);

Until you live in Mexico City for 18 months and hear first hand what the agenda from Mexico really is; until you read the quotes from the Mexican presidential candidate at the May 1st “Day without Gringo” rally at the Zocalo stating:

“We are warning you that in Mexico there is already another way, one we are building… this national movement will overthrow the bad governments; we will also expel you from our rich land…In our skies the Star-Spangled Banner will not fly. In our skies our tricolor flag with its eagle on a cactus fighting a serpent, will fly again with pride. Too bad, get packing!”

Until you educate yourselves about Bush’s plan in current progress to unify North America and make the outer perimeter the new borders with free flow of people and trade throughout (CFR, FFTA, SPP – it’s all available to you online); you will find that the “Security and Prosperity Partnership” (SPP) is currently working on methods to SPEED the border crossings (read: make more efficient...more efficient until America is displaced or our infrastructure collapses).

Until you experience these things, understand these things, or until you do your research to become educated on these things, please do not stand in judgment of those who support closing our borders, enforcing the law and fighting against the Trilateral Commission, FFTA and SPP.

As much as I oppose Bush, I will not vote for one Congressperson or state leader who supports amnesty or a guest worker plan (semantic games). In my opinion, this opens the door for the above mission to succeed (which is in no way is in the best interest of the middle/working class). This, my friends, in my opinion, is how the Bush administration is playing the Democrats.

I will not support a policy and a mission to destroy the sovereignty of this great nation in the name of power, corporate money, natural resources and further division of classes. And, I feel that this is a time for ALL American citizens to come together as a nation to fight for her and not a time to be divided in a partisan war. As Red Tail said, “this issue is not a Democrat or Republican issue.” It’s an American issue. (Although, my reasons are different than his.)

I cannot think of a better quote to end this post:
“United we stand. Divided we fall.”

You can blast me as you did Red Tail, but I wanted to express that this issue exceeds party lines for some.

Best to all.

[Bridget Burke]

73. Hey--great formatting!

The Right Wing Talking Points are easier to read when arranged in paragraphs rather than jammed together into one dense screed of verbiage. Of course, you offer no ideas that we haven't seen in the last couple of weeks.

This blog has a good summary of the Great Reconquista Menace: http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/04/reconquista.html

The Texas you describe doesn't look like the Texas I know.

I'm afraid you'll have to deal with the Trilateral Commission yourself.

Edited to add one question: If you can't understand your local shopkeeper, how were you able to live in Mexico City for 18 months?

[concerned_texan]

76. Response to Bridget

Texas:
As for your idea or experience with Texas, possibly you live or visited ‘sheltered’ areas or areas not as heavily impacted with these issues??

18 months in Mexico:
My fiancé worked in Mexico on a contract with Pemex during that time. The people on the project spoke the international business language, English. I attempted to learn Spanish through lessons, but the self-proclaimed “instructor” appointed by Pemex was more interested in teaching Mexican curse words and learning English. The “How to Learn Spanish” book we were given was written in Spanish only.

I commuted back and forth between the states and Mexico; I used my pocket translator; I ate many meals I didn’t think I ordered; I sat patiently in line and to the side while Mexicans were seated in restaurants before the Americans who arrived before them; I purchased grocery by the labels and pointed; I paid three times the price for almost everything as an estupido Gringo who couldn’t speak the language because that’s they manner in which they conduct business – take advantage every chance you get. But, hey, I was in their country not able to speak their language; I certainly didn’t demand they speak English! And then I came back to the states. If I ever spend an extended time in Mexico again, I plan to take classes prior to my departure, but I shouldn’t have to take them just to live in my own country.

Right Wing:
Right wing talking points they may be; however, I formed my opinions and decisions on personal experience and subsequent self-education when this issue was finally (and long overdue) brought to the fore. I don’t suppose you have ever thought of the conflict experienced by democrats who do not agree with the party on this issue? I’ll vote democrat before independent, and independent before Republican; however, I will definitely be voting against anyone pro-amnesty / guest worker. And my mother has threatened to disown me. =)

Putting all the personal experiences I described in my post aside (which is just a mere sampling in 40 years), the bottom line is that I will not support anything that creates a clear path to the unionization of Mexico, US and Canada (see the Bush administration www.spp.gov to evaluate the speed of the freight train). In other words, I have decided to fight for US sovereignty and against a further reduction in middle class with an even greater disparity between upper and lower (for reasons stated in my post). And although it disheartens me that there are people such as yourself who won’t fight for sovereignty – just as it might be disconcerting to some that a democrat is ‘jumping ship’ over this issue - I respect your position.

Additionally, I wasn’t offering ideas. I was offering my experience, as well as my personal decision, and asking others to take a moment and respect a person’s decision without being so quick to stand in judgment, as several did with Red Tail.

[Bridget Burke]

80. I've lived in the Houston area for more than 50 years.

And Spanish is not that hard to learn.

Your experiences will be given due consideration.

[concerned_texan]

81. Response to Bridget

My friend, Spanish is not difficult to learn if you have a bilingual instructor willing to teach (as explained in the precious post). But, I repeat, I shouldn't have to learn Spanish to conduct normal, daily business in my home country.

Have you lived in McAllen or East Texas in addition to the big city of Houston? I have lived in all three, as well as Dallas. You should get out into your state more to learn from experiences outside of your world...or at least be open minded enough to consider the experiences of others.


"Your experiences will be given due consideration."

As will your silly responses.

[Bridget Burke]

83. Spanish is not difficult to learn if you want to learn it.

But you managed to spend 18 months in Mexico & remain ignorant of the language.

What normal, daily business were you unable to conduct in Spanish? What kind of business? Where? Did you complain to the owner?

What precise "problems" occur outside my sheltered life here in Houston? Things are so calm & quiet.

Please, continue your fight for "sovereignty."

[concerned_texan]

86. Bless your heart

Bridget, I have already answered your first question in previous posts. I will not spend anymore of my time with your antagonistic responses. Please go pick your seemingly desired argument with someone else.



I bid you good night.

[Bridget Burke]

87. You have my sympathy.

Your first post was so nicely presented. All that effort expended--and everybody else ignored it.

There are other immigration threads & many DU'er share your thoughts. (Well--perhaps not about the Trilateral Commission.)

Perhaps you should try again later.

[JohnWxy]

92. an important, informative, troubling post.

So many Dems who do not live in or have never visited the SW don't know ANYTHING about which you speak.

Please continue to post what you know. Please keep talking. Some will listen.


thank you, 'Texan.

[BigYawn]

75. Do NOT support law breakers (criminals) no matter how much

justified by moral, ethical or economic basis. Period.
Without abiding laws we have anarchy. If we do not like
certain law, ofcourse every effort should be made to get
it changed. That is how democracy should work.

[GymGeekAus]

100. Civil Disobedience is a Lie?

So much for Rosa Parks, huh?

[BigYawn]

102. Civil disobid. is just fine, so long as jail time follows...

Every time the father of civil disobidience, mahatma Gandhi
exercised civil disobidience, his ass was thrown in jail by
the British rulers. That is how it was and should be.

[GymGeekAus]

105. How much jail time, wise one?

After all, if it was good enough for Gandhi...

Uh, why do we have to go through all that again?

The whole point is to get to the compromise.

[BigYawn]

106. How much jail time? That's what we pay the judges for...n/t

[GymGeekAus]

108. No, that's what we write laws for.

And what we enpanel juries for.

I dunno, dude. I don't think I can trust your political judgement here. You seem horribly uninformed.

[BigYawn]

123. If laws were that explicit, why are we paying high salaries to judges?

No dude, there is always some judgement involved in a
court of law. That is why we call them "judges". Get it?

As for political judgement, I was a precinct captain in Chicago.
What posts have you held so far?

[GymGeekAus]

136. I suspect you're a liar, actually.

And by the way, morons can hold poltical positions and have poor political judgement. Look at the President.

You changed the point of the discussion, also. "There is always some judgement involved in a court of law." Yes, sure. That's an empty statement to make. We are talking about sentencing people outside of the restrictions upon the judiciary as established by the legislative branch, which is what you're suggesting.

You'd think such an experienced political operative would understand the distinction.

[Mountainman]

78. Please stop telling me that as a Dem I need to be anti immigrant

Screw that, the humanitarian thing is what Dems should be all about. There are Dems who want to win so bad that they cast aside others.

My values come before my party allegiance.

[AZBlue]

82. Excellent post - full of facts and truth!

Thank you for posting it - and ignore the ignorant comments by some here!

[Sapere aude]

85. Let me see what truth there is here. My thoughts on them.

"In my humble opinion this issue is not a Democrat or Republican issue."

The history of Prop 187 in California shows that the Republicans hurt themselves badly by being anti immigrant. California has had a Democratic majority ever since then.

"This is an American legal issue."

I guess everything that concerns us here is an American issue.

"I think Dems will find themselves in hot water if they continue to support illegals."

I completely disagree, see above about Prop 187.

"This is one of those issues that we need to act like americans not party's."

Similar to this is an American issue

"My opinion is that the flow must be cut off."

I agree we should not have open boarders

"The Mexican govt. must accept responsibility for the welfare of their own people."

I agree but the Mexican govt has not done that and I don't see how we can make them take responsibility.


"but these people want everything handed to them on a platter with no effort on their part."

This statement is total bull shit. These people left their homes not knowing what lies ahead. They work hard and pay federal taxes and state payroll taxes, social security taxes which they will not collect, sales taxes and property taxes through their rent. The only difference between them and us is the way they got to this country.


"these immigrants that are illegally here take the jobs and are paid under the table for dollars an hour less"

This may be true in some cases but not true in the majority of cases. Most construction companies obey the wage and hour laws. They risk everything they have if caught paying under the table. There may be some day laborers that get paid that way but it is usually some small sub contractor needing clean up crews etc.


My opinion is that the opposition to illegal immigration is mainly based on the fears of the cultural changes it brings. I believe that most of the reasons given are not based in fact for the most part.

[JohnWxy]

91. I was put off by all the Mexican flags at first. Then I noticed their

handlers told them to hide the Mexican flags and replace them with American flags. A public relations move. When they came up with the national anthem in Spanish (with some of their own additions) that's when I had 'had it'.

It's obvious that they feel they are owed citizenship or at least free passage to and from this country. They don't want to adapt to be Americans (as millions of others have done before them). They want America to adapt to them! If it wasn't obvious before, the national anthem matter should have made that crystal clear. This country has accepted millions of people from every country on Earth and none of them ever thought to rewrite the national anthem TO SUIT THEMSEVES. If that was the case, we would have about 300 different national anthems! Which means, obviously, we would no longer have A (i.e. one) NATIONAL anthem. (Thus, we would have NO national anthem.) This clearly contradicts the whole purpose of a national anthem. The millions of immigrants who came to this country in the past (virtually all of us) no longer considered themselves to be GErmans, or Lithuanians, Italians or Vietnamese but AMERICANS. And that's about the only thing I think we DO expect of immigrants (legal immigrants) today. That they consider themselves Americans, but not to demand it.

JUst my opinion.

[Bridget Burke]

94. Our National Anthem has been translated into several languages.

National anthem in other languages? Heard this before
By David Goldstein

Knight Ridder Newspapers

WASHINGTON — President Bush, Congress and anyone else upset over the Spanish translation of the national anthem might be interested to know that the U.S. government gave its blessing to a different version 87 years ago.

That translation of "The Star-Spangled Banner," prepared by the Bureau of Education in 1919, has been available on the Library of Congress Web site for two years without so much as a sniff of disapproval.

Besides Spanish, the library has vintage translations in Polish, French, Italian, Portuguese and Armenian, among others. A little Googling will turn up versions in Samoan and Yiddish, too.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002975852_anthem06.html

So, immigrants should consider themselves Americans but not demand it. Should they burn their old flags & humbly supplicate your regard? NOBODY was demanding citizenship. The protests were against a draconian Republican proposal--that has been modified.

My grandparents came over from Ireland when it was quite simple for (white) people to become legal residents. They passed a physical & were welcomed to the new world. I hear my father was beaten up because he was a "foreigner." Native born, he wore the Red, White & Blue to his wake. I have the flag but don't remember him--I was 4 when he died in the crash of a SAC bomber.

I'm quite American but fly the Irish flag from time to time. In Texas, we aren't frightened by the Mexican flag. Or by any others that show up as immigrants continue to arrive.

[RagingInMiami]

117. The beauty of the United States is in its diversity

Not in its monolithic requirement that one prove their love for this country by waving the American flag. Hell, we had enough of that during the run-up to the war.

And the only reason this ever became an issue was because the hypocrisy of the situation. The illegals were content playing their role in the game. They would be allowed to come here and be exploited for a chance to provide a better life for their family. For a chance that their children will get an education and rise up to levels they would never have been able to in Mexico.

They came for the American Dream, and you can't get anymore American than that. And they agreed to remain underground as long they didn't get deported or exploited too much. As long as they got steady work and pay.

But when politicians suddenly started talking about criminalizing them, they made a stand. They waved their flags because they knew how many people hated them for being Mexican, but they wanted to show us that they didn't give a fuck, that they were still proud of their heritage.

But you ask any immigrant and they will tell you they love this country because it allows them to better themselves through hard work.

[Acadia Blue]

98. I see the construction and other jobs taken in my own community,

And if people had to become citizens to get jobs, they would have an interest in keeping their own wages above homeless and slave wages.

[laheina]

109. Requiring citizenship as a requirement for employment isn't

even as feasible option. In order to make that work, the U.S. would have to criminalize immigration period.

[0007]

101. The folks that pay the low wages and take advantage

of the market by hiring undocumented worker are the problem. The crux of the problem is solved if these culprits are heavily penalized.

[RagingInMiami]

107. Yawn

You know what they say about opinions, right?

[GymGeekAus]

110. Smack.

Uh, so we can share them and thereby help to bridge the gaps between our individual perspectives?

[RagingInMiami]

111. Once I hear a rant about "these new breed of illegals"

Then I automatically stop listening. After all, every wave of immigrants in this country were treated as if they were subhuman, a different breed.

[GymGeekAus]

116. A perfectly valid and valuable observation.

Of course, the southern US border has always been porous.

[BigYawn]

124. The main difference being.....

the immigrants of past arrived legally through
the famous New York clearing house for immigrants,
the name escapes me at the moment....somthing island.

[RagingInMiami]

125. Even a bigger yawn

Back then, there was no "LEGAL" or "ILLEGAL". There was no immigration laws on the books. Everybody was allowed in.

EDIT: And even then, does someone entering the country ILLEGALLY suddenly become a different breed of human by this act, inferior to those fortunate enough to have been born on the north side of the Mexican border?

[Bridget Burke]

127. From "The Moral Physics of Immigration."

Not everyone is flocking to our shores and borders, despite what Lou Dobbs and Tom Tancredo say. The fact is that 98 percent of the world's people are "stayers," content (more or less) to live and die where they where born.

But immigration law is about fear, not facts. Prior to the 1870's, we had no immigration law at all--de facto "open borders." Then we began to bar criminals prostitutes and the Chinese (the Chinese Exclusion Act lasted until 1943), and in the 1920's we enacted, for the first time, numerical quotas.

Those numerical quotas were as much out of whack then as they are today with respect to the way real people live, love, work, study and travel. And that out-of-whackness creates, by legislative fiat, the "illegal alien" phenomenon. We could, with the stroke of a pen, adjust the quotas and the categories to make them objectively rational, or close to it, thus "solving" the immigration "problem."

This article by Dan Kowalski is in the current issue of The Texas Observer. Although it's not available online, the site may be of interest. www.texasobserver.org/

People have been coming & going across The Border since before there WAS a Border!

[GymGeekAus]

137. Another whiff by BigYawn.

Do you know what the standard was for Ellis Island?

"Show up, and we'll get you the documentation." Basically, it was Amnesty.

Then we changed the laws, and began enforcing them unfairly. Did you ever ask "why?"

Of course not. You're not a political thinker. You're something else entirely.

[Virginian]

120. Perhaps the answer is

to Annex Mexico.

If Mexico were a state and not a country, we could control the wages there. We could enjoy their warm climate with the safty of US laws. Mexico could be to the rest of the US what Quebec is to Canada.

People wouldn't have to leave their families and risk travel through the desert to send money back home. They wouldn't be encouraged to leave their familiar environment to raise the economy of their home country.
Automobile seats would no longer be made in the country of Mexico using cheap labor, they would be made in the state of Mexico under the wage and labor laws of the US. Companies that have moved to Mexico to avoid paying a fair wage would have to pay a fair wage or find some other country to exploit.

[Bridget Burke]

128. Perhaps we should enforce the "wage & labor laws of the US"...

Here, first. For all workers--so they could ALL enjoy the Workers' Paradise that is the USA.

[Eurobabe]

122. ICE kicked some ass in N. KY Tuesday

Finally cracking down on employers who willingly aided and abetted undocumented workers. In the home building industry.

Employers need to be fined for encouraging people to sneak into the country illegally. This amnesty shit is an affront to all the immigrants who paid their dues and came to this country abiding by the rules.

[ggdwill]

126. Immigration: Another symptom of the Mixed Economy.

We have a disease in this country, and it's called indecisiveness. It affects virtually every political and social issue under discussion. We cannot decide if we should be a socialist country or a capitalist country.

For generations immigrants came here to build a better life for themselves. Many still do. But also many come here to have someone else build a better life for them. Amongst both of these groups there are legal and illegal immigrants.

The immigration overflow (which causes illegal immigration) is an effect, not a cause. We have two giant magnets pulling people to this country. A massive economy and a massive welfare state. One needs to be turned off. That is the only way to decrease the numbers of people trying to get in so that those still wanting to enter can enter in an orderly fashion.

[Bridget Burke]

129. Since you obviously don't want to turn off the "massive economy"...

(Hah!)...obviously you want to do away with the "massive welfare state." Of course, the economy & social programs are both suffering under your president.

The undocumented really do NOT qualify for most social programs in the USA.

[ggdwill]

130. I didn't say that.

I haven't advocated either course of action. I just pointed out that if illegal immigration is to be solved, the solution is more fundamental than silly things like fences and labor laws.

[Bridget Burke]

131. Well, you think that the Massive Welfare State &....

the Massive Economy are drawing immigrants. What do you propose to do about those two Magnets?

The Fence is obviously a ridiculous idea. But I don't regard labor laws as "silly."

[ggdwill]

132. I propose to make a decision.

Our leaders, hailing from both parties are wishy washy about virtually every issue, especially immigration. If you agree with my earlier stated premise, then I propose that we turn off one or the other - We become a socialist country or a capitalist country.

[elehhhhna]

134. we are already boith, ya ding ding

[Bridget Burke]

135. I propose we stop wasting our money on war(s).

I propose the rich & the corporations begin paying their share of taxes. Then there would be plenty left over for social programs. In fact, some kind of national health care plan would be a boon to business.

There's nothing wrong with capitalism. Some regulation is necessary--but ending governmental fellatio of big corporations would probably result in a purer capitalism than we see now.

Am I supposed to faint at the mention of "Socialism"? Hardly.

[elehhhhna]

133. yeah I ihate those "silly labor laws"