A lot of people have judged me tonight.

[madfloridian]

It bothers me a lot. My beliefs are not respected here because I think the party chairman was just fine talking to the religious community.

I have been told my views about gay marriage are wrong, that supporting civil unions and equality is just not enough.

I was raised Southern Baptist. I am recovering now from that experience since they were hijacked, but I so much appreciate Howard Dean talking to the community of that group as well.

I think my views are fine, and I don't think I should be judged for being who I am. I don't like being called a "fundie" either, that hurts.

I want my views to be respected just as I respect others' views.

And I did not even use the f word, so I know this won't be reommended like posts that use the f words against Democrats.

I really don't want to use the sarcasm tag, so maybe my attempt at saying tolerance works both ways???

[roguevalley]

1. you aren't. I'm getting paddled for my opinions about Hillary tonight

too. 'Hillary hater'. Take a deep breath. Tomorrow is another day. I don't agree with Mr. Dean on this issue but I respect him because he stands up and takes the fight to the evil side. He has built a state by state apparatus and he has paid his dues. I don't expect to be called a Dean hater for disagreeing with him on this issue but it is probably inevitable.

[WCGreen]

2. I respect your views....

I have been active at every level of the party since 1976...

I said this before on another thread tonight....

I may not always agree with everything that my party does but anything they do or say is better than anything the GOP says or, more importantly, does....

[roguevalley]

5. agreed, WCGreen.

[havocmom]

3. Been watching some of the tussels you have been in

And I respect you and your beliefs.

Consider: bush is below freezing in the polls. There are moles on many discussion forums. Rove gets no pardon if the DEMS take the Hill and start cleaning up the WH...

It is crunch time and there might be some bonuses for some moles. Paid posters do exist on the web.

Don't let the jerking knees run you off ;)

[madfloridian]

9. But here intolerance only works one way...their way.

And there is paid astroturf going on right now. It is being started by bloggers.

But I still want my views respected by the community who wants me to respect them. :hi:

[CTLawGuy]

4. I hope someday that your mind will change about gay marriage

but I appreciate your dedication to Democratic politics, and you have great taste in presidential candidates.

[last1standing]

6. There's no problem talking to the religious community.

In fact I support it whole heartedly and have posted to that effect months before Dean became DNC chair. I do, however, object with him talking to people who have repeatedly said that gays and liberals are responsible for the World Trade Center attack and for all the other evils and problems in this country today.

I'm not for excluding Christians or any other religion, but there is a massive difference between Christians and "fundies" (and, no, I do not consider you a fundie).

[Maddy McCall]

7. How old are you? Please don't be pissed if I don't pull out the violin.

I have supported Dean ever since he became the party chair. I've said nice things about him...

But he fucked up on this one.

It would have been understandable if he had said, "My views are that marriage is between a man and a woman." But he said that the PARTY views marriage as between a man and a woman.

That's just not so.

I was raised in a Southern Baptist Church, too. What do you feel has changed in the church? When was it "hijacked?" It's still the same organization that it was when I was a kid. You do understand why the SBC was founded, do you not?

I don't think you'll convince many people with your post, nor garner much sympathy.

Poor you.

[madfloridian]

10. I am way too old.

And my church is anti-everything, except the Iraq War, and I left.

[leftstreet]

15. question

(Since you were raised Southern Baptist.)

Do they view "marriage" as a religious uh...sacrament of sorts? That is to say, do they tend to see a "marriage" at a courthouse distinctly different from a marriage in a church?

:hi:

[Maddy McCall]

22. Yes.

But that's the same with most denominations, as far as I know.

[leftstreet]

26. Thanks

Evidently it depends on the denomination and geographic area. Out here in the wild west you're likely to find it more common for Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc to be quite comfortable marrying at a courthouse. Or, what I think was once generally referred to as a "civil ceremony."

Interesting.

[madfloridian]

23. They don't think the word "marriage" should be used...

any way unless referring to a man or a woman. Frankly, I don't really care, as long as equality exists....I am trying to make a point about tolerance working both ways. Not working...so not working.

[1932]

8. I could be wrong, but are you the FL DU'er who disagrees with Jim Wallace

and with his book God's Politics?

[madfloridian]

12. No, I don't disagree. I have not read a religious book in ages.

It hurts to leave your church where you were raised, and it takes time.

I am trying to show that tolerance at DU only works one way, but people are not getting it so I edited.

[1932]

29. Last year, didn't we have an exchange about how you don't think

Democrats should reach out to church-goers? I could be wrong. Didn't you say that you subscribed to the Sojourner's newsletter, but that you completely disagreed with Wallace's argument that, if Democrats don't engage with Christians, they leave the playing field to Republicans who then misrepresent the politics of the bible (which wallace believes are progressive)?

[1932]

30. Last year, didn't we have an exchange about how you don't think

Democrats should reach out to church-goers? I could be wrong. Didn't you say that you subscribed to the Sojourner's newsletter, but that you completely disagreed with Wallace's argument that, if Democrats don't engage with Christians, they leave the playing field to Republicans who then misrepresent the politics of the bible (which wallace believes are progressive)?

[rawtribe]

11. Separate but equal,

it worked so well in the past.

:eyes:

[madfloridian]

14. Oh, so I am a bigot if I don't agree with the word marriage?

I get it. Can you detect the lack of tolerance toward me now? Just wondering.

[rawtribe]

25. It's hard to sympathize

with a bigot when you're on the receiving end.

:nopity:

[madfloridian]

27. So I am a bigot to you.

Because I believe in equality and inclusion for all, but that marriage is a union of a man and a woman. Does that make me a bigot?

[donco6]

32. No kidding.

She got slammed on the other post, and now wants her own pity party here. She never would respond to this one:

(On why marriage is only between a man and woman)

When your sole argument seems to be, "I believe it because I believe it" - that's just not good enough! Sorry, but your baseless belief is keeping me from enjoying the rights that you take for granted.

Example: My partner and I have been together for 10 years. We own two houses, three cars, other property and stuff. We went to get cemetery plots in his family plot in a little mountain town in Colorado. He was able to get a plot, but I was denied, because I'm not "family." We had to get an attorney and fight the cemetery for over a YEAR to get them to sell me a plot next to my partner.

Now, obviously, if I were straight, that wouldn't have been an issue. But you seem to think it's A-OK. I just don't get it.

[Selatius]

13. Welcome to my world (As a socialist I get singled out easily)

I'm a libertarian socialist. It's rather easy to pick on me here.

Whenever I said, for instance, that if people in New Orleans were taught mutual cooperation from the time they are born until the time they die, maybe so many of them wouldn't have died as they would've commandered those buses from the incompetent, abusive, corrupt government and organized a caravan to get people out instead of sitting there waiting for help that didn't come until it was too late, I get slathered with the notion that I'm blaming the victims. There were several cases of people spontaneously organizing co-operative food distribution centers from closed supermarkets with food inside them.

I'm far from blaming the victims. The frank truth is we're taught to compete against each other and ultimately destroy each other, and maybe we do depend too much on the government to help us. Haven't a car to get out? Tough shit. Haven't the money to get out? Tough shit. You're going to die in this current reality, and it's even more true if the government doesn't care if you live or die, and that was tragically true with Katrina.

I don't support that, and I never will. I can help. We can all help each other if we simply stop playing their game and come together and organize to recognize we are all in the same fix and that it would be best to work together instead of simply saying, "I'm getting the fuck out of Orleans; if ya'll can't find a way out, not my problem!"

I know this post seems totally irrelevant to what you're saying, but the point is I've been down that road, and you're not the first down it either. Just stick to your guns and keep blazing away!

[FrenchieCat]

16. Dean is a good man in my book......

He's done too much good to be shelved for one thing he said....

[madfloridian]

20. He will be shelved by the gays and by the DC insiders.

And many of the DC insiders don't give a flip about any of us.

This post was about tolerance on every level. They were making fun of Christians in another thread.

Don't worry. The Clintonistas will win it again.

I edited my post because I was not clear in my reference to DC insiders.

[donco6]

28. Whoa. And you were complaining about being judged?

Pot meet kettle.

Who the hell are you to say that I don't give a flip about Democrats?

[Jane Austin]

17. I am surprised by the intolerance shown on DU lately.

The thread you were in - - and handled yourself very nicely - - seemed like a tag-team exercise in ugliness.

I don't see that it accomplished anything except bad feelings.

It sure didn't change Howard Dean, or you, or me, except to make us feel crappy for reading such anger turned upon us.

I don't know why that thread was allowed to continue. Telling fellow DU posters to "F- - - off" is pretty much against the rules I thought.

To do it repeatedly with more vehemence each time . . . well, I don't know why it was allowed to continue.

The thing I admired about your posts in that other thread was that you talked mainly about your own feelings and background and opnions. Not so much finger-pointing.

That's kind of refreshing in a world of bossy right-wingers and others who seem to think one doesn't have the right to take up space unless you hew strictly to their program - - or else.

[madfloridian]

31. Thanks.

I fear that I am right. The attacks are only ok when they are against Dean. We have worried about that, with the WP article out about Rahm's temper tantrum with Dean.

This is really not about Dean at all, the whole thing about the attacks goes much deeper. It will continue as long as allowed.

Kind of sad, as we could probably win in November.

[JeffR]

18. Madfloridian, I'm a Floridian and mad too

And went to a Southern Baptist Bible school, and survived the experience!

I'm inclined to think Dean had the right impulse (as he usually does), but perhaps the wrong approach (which he sometimes does).

As to your views, I think you're a righteous American, and seeing your name on a post predisposes me to thinking I'll read something righteous therein.

Be yo'self now.

[Erika]

19. Get over it. We atheists have been putting up with sh--

a lot longer than you have.

[madfloridian]

21. Then you shouldn't get over it.

Did you really read my post?

[Erika]

24. Yes...and?

[The Magistrate]

33. Locking

Continuation of a flame-war from another thread.